View Full Version : Bi-wiring mid- to high-end speakers.. verdict?
I've seen a few threads recently that mention bi-wiring; and the debates surrounding it. I've also looked at other sites' views. A common conclusion is that it is generally not considered to be a cost effective investment for relatively budget systems.
Does that mean it is wothwhile for more expensive kit? I'm on a shopping trail at the moment, and having demo'd the Mission 78 series, I'm itching to part with a load of dosh. As the speakers can only be sold at retail, the dealer has offered me a cheap deal on cable - specifically, QED silver anniv. bi-wire at 4 quid/m. Is this a good buy to go with the above speakers?.. or should I satisfy myself with cheaper non-bi-wire cable?
Bapapapa
12-03-2002, 19:55
Some people hear a small difference, some hear none, but at £4/m for bi-wire silver anniversary, you've got nothing to lose. In fact at that price it should be in the bargain forum.. tell me where.. lol!!
Bi-amping is where you supposedly hear a big difference, but of course that requires a bigger investment.
Originally posted by Doc Jim
specifically, QED silver anniv. bi-wire at 4 quid/m.
Are you sure you don't mean QED original bi-wire which you can get at that price. If it is the silver anniversary I'd be there to buy some as well. For my 2p I've just biwired my mission m73s with the original bi-wire over some cheap stuff I'd bought from RIcher Sounds years ago and noticed a much tighter bass. Considering all the discussions about cabling etc and the merits thereof I'm almost too scared to say it, but I did notice a slight improvement. IMHO :)
Yeah, it is the bi-wire stuff at that price. They're doing me a good deal on that because they can't discount the speakers.
..I should think so too! The speakers are loadsa money, and the markup on cable is phenomenal apparently. So they are probably still making money, even when 50% discounted.
Incidentally, an additional question. How do I order the cable, and how does it come. Do I order one long piece and cut it myself, or do I specify the five lengths, and they came with banana-plugs or something?
Bapapapa
12-03-2002, 20:51
They'll be cutting the cable from a roll, so if you know what lengths you need I'd get them to banana plug it up for you. The silver anniv. cable is a bitch to cut & trim.
Any chance of ordering 10m too much? lol!!
BTW - I wouldn't bother biwiring the rears.
Ta Baps.. 10m extra huh.. hmmm! ;)
What's wrong with bi-wiring the rears?
Bapapapa
12-03-2002, 21:04
By all means bi-wire the rears if you want to, it certainly won't make it sound any worse, but with the amount they're actually used the benefits, if any at all, would be microscopic. Not to mention having to run & hide the 4x strand cable around the walls.. hehe..
Originally posted by Bapapapa
Not to mention having to run & hide the 4x strand cable around the walls.. hehe..
Good point.. hmmm.. I wonder if they'll do the regular silver anniv for £2/m..
Rainfall
12-03-2002, 23:50
Go ahead and bi-wire, there is a small amount of difference,[I noticed it] you wont notice it has you will be buying the speakers at the same time;) I would put on the cable you have now then bi-wire, in a few weeks time. Remember your speakers do need to be run in for a while. Good luck with your new speakers/cable,
cheers Steve
The real debate over biwiring isn't so much whether doing this in itself will give any worthwhile improvements.
Some say it does, while others claim not. I guess it's a case of try it and see.
The real question is whether to buy £10/m normal cable, or £5/m cable and biwire (obviously twice as much cable is then needed) - total cost then being the same!
So, is it better to cable up with say QED original biwire (4 condutors) at £5/m, or QED Silver Anniversary (2 conductors) at £5/m.
Which will sound better?
QED SA is generally accepted to be a better speaker cable than QED original (you'd hope so too, or it'd be a bit of a waste of money) - but on the other hand, biwiring is supposed to bring improvements over mono-wiring, as well.
Of course, a hifi dealer would then tell you to biwire with Silver Anniversary. But then is that better than Van den Hul or Ecosse (for instance) monowire for the same price.
Hopefully you can see where this is going!!!
However, at £4/m for QED SA biwire, it may well be a bit academic.
Buy enough to biwire the fronts and centre (personally I'd keep all 3 cables exactly the same length - but this may well be another old wive's tale designed to fleece more cash out of you), and to cable one rear speaker. Then simply split the cable down the middle, and wire each rear speaker with mono-wire cable.
As Baps says, it's very unlikely you will notice any difference on the rears from biwiring (and they tend to be the furthest away from the amp).
Thanks Mike!
Yeah, I see what you mean. For a fixed price, what is the best way to spend it?! Hmm.. that's a common theme in hi-fi I think.
I think there are a couple of psychological processes to this, as well. If you don't spend the extra money on something, you might always wonder/regret what improvements there might have been. If you do spend the money, there's a bit of an 'Emperor's New Clothes' thing going on, and you'll convince yourself it was money well spent.
Hmm.. maybe I'll go and measure up tonight, and then have a think about it. It does sound quite cool though, to tell people your speakers are biwired..
;)
Bapapapa
13-03-2002, 09:30
It does sound quite cool though, to tell people your speakers are biwired..
Yeah, I've pulled many a bird in my time using that line..
SwinnyDon
13-03-2002, 10:46
Bi-amping is where you supposedly hear a big difference, but of course that requires a bigger investment.
Not always the case. I've read before-though never tried it-you can bi-amp using the same amp if you have 2 speaker outputs on your amp (which you do on most amps these days?-my Sony 930 does anyway) Use exactly the same principal as regular bi-amping but use Speaker Output B and switch your amp to output from both.
Like I say, never tried it so don't blame me! :clap:
<b><center>you can bi-amp using the same amp if you have 2 speaker outputs on your amp</center></b>
That's not bi-amping. The binding posts are paralleled up to the same amplifier outputs (usually via switches/relays). Bi-amping requires two power amplifies per channel and will also (usually) include filters (i.e. the crossover is handled by the amp, not the speakers).
On the other hand, two sets of binding posts does allow you to implement bi-wiring more conveniently - it's not easy stuffing two sets of conductors into one wiring post!
quicky related q,
my ax620 has two sets of front speaker posts, but if enable A+B (which I've done to biwire my mX4s) the impedance (ohm) changes...so are you better off 'stuffing' the wires into one set or not?
SwinnyDon
13-03-2002, 13:56
I stand corrected! :p :D
:clap:
<b><center>my ax620 has two sets of front speaker posts, but if enable A+B (which I've done to biwire my mX4s) the impedance (ohm) changes...so are you better off 'stuffing' the wires into one set or not?</center></b>
Not too sure what you mean. The impedance "seen" by the amp remains the same - both sets of binding posts on the amp are paralleled together, so it makes no difference at that end. The speaker posts are still short-circuited (either by a joining plate if single wiring, or at the amplifier if bi-wiring) - so it makes no difference at that end, either.
It will only make a difference if you connect one set of speakers to A and another set to B - the impedance seen by the amp will then be (Ra x Rb) / (Ra + Rb). So, two 8 ohm speakers will look like 4 ohms when both are switched on.
You should be able to tell quite a lot of difference in the sound if the speakers are bi-wired, particularly in the bass sounds. It helps if you listen to dodgy dance music for this.
If you are not sure get a friend to wire the speakers up 'normally' and then bi-wired and see if you can tell the difference. If you can't then why waste the money?
If you know anyone that has an expensive car stereo ask them if they have a 'charge up capacitor'. Bi-wiring is the same sort of principle. When the speaker demands more power the seperate cable can supply it more easily.
If you want to get silly you could also try directional cable! :D
<b><center>If you know anyone that has an expensive car stereo ask them if they have a 'charge up capacitor'. Bi-wiring is the same sort of principle. When the speaker demands more power the seperate cable can supply it more easily.</center></b>
Errm, you haven't bought anything from the Russ Andrews catalogue, have you?
"Errm, you haven't bought anything from the Russ Andrews catalogue, have you?"
I doubt it as I haven't got a chuffin clue what you are on about!
OK, I just experienced a touch of deja vu wrt this thread: http://217.33.154.203/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60679 - you have to read it all to appreciate it. I know I did.
Speakers don't "demand power" and wire, not even bi-wire, is able to provide it. If speaker cable had the internal capacitance to act as a power reserve (although how it would do this is beyond me) it would supress all audio signals through it.
Originally posted by ljp
"Errm, you haven't bought anything from the Russ Andrews catalogue, have you?"
I doubt it as I haven't got a chuffin clue what you are on about!
Hehe.. it's a catalogue of home cinema accessories that came free with this month's What Hi-Fi magazine. It's full of very expensive bits and pieces such as power cables and speaker stands, with some dodgy physics explanations as to how they justify their extreme expense! We're all a tad sceptical! :D
Read more about it at the thread here (http://217.33.154.203/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60679).
I have already bought lots of expensive things without the aid of some dodgy catalogue. I am just a sucker for anything to do with music.
Hehe... it definitely falls into the criteria for the definition of an addiction!
Originally posted by Neon
Speakers don't "demand power" and wire, not even bi-wire, is able to provide it. If speaker cable had the internal capacitance to act as a power reserve (although how it would do this is beyond me) it would supress all audio signals through it.
I thought that one of the reasonable arguments for bi-wiring is that the impedance of a wire will change slightly if a heavy current is passed thru it (such as may be drawn by the large driver). Small changes in impedance can have an effect on the small driver (tweeter). If you run separate wire to each speaker you avoid this effect. This is why it doesn't matter if you use the same binding post.
One of the arguments for Bi-Amping is that the large driver will have some movement due to momentum, and this will cause it to generate a current on its own (it will act like a generator). This will also have an effect on the tweeter. If you completly split the amplification you can also avoid this effect (as well as remove the crossover circuit).
At least, that's what an audio engineer where I work told me.
(For the record, I am a sceptic when it comes to expensive esoteric cable, but the bi-wire argument seems to have some scientific basis, although whether you can hear the difference is another issue).
cheekster
15-03-2002, 17:47
All the guys down at my local Audio T personally don't recommend bi-wiring. They sound like they know what they are talking about to.
Don't ask me their argument because I can't remember all the technicalities.
Used to have a bi-amped/bi-wired set up some while back which sounded great but then so does my current set up which is single-wired and and all in one AV Receiver. :D
Cheekster.
Originally posted by Warren Alexander
If you completly split the amplification you can also avoid this effect (as well as remove the crossover circuit).
Hehehe!!! - your tweeter wouldn't last very long if you removed the crossover circuit (unless you replaced it with an electronic crossover between the CD player and amplifiers)
>>>_____whoosh____>>>
:confused:
John Hodson
16-03-2002, 14:39
Originally posted by Doc Jim
Hehe.. it's a catalogue of home cinema accessories that came free with this month's What Hi-Fi magazine. It's full of very expensive bits and pieces such as power cables and speaker stands, with some dodgy physics explanations as to how they justify their extreme expense! We're all a tad sceptical! :D
Read more about it at the thread here (http://217.33.154.203/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60679).
Do you recall, a few years back, not only were they recommending, using a 'special' green felt tip pen around the edge of CDs (to keep the laser light in of course!), but there was a movement to keep CDs in your freezer compartment, because sub-zero disks sound better...obviously.
Complete rubbish of course. What next?
Nonsense. Laughable really.
(Wonder if it works with DVDs...?)
---
So many films, so little time...
Well.. I merrily bi-wired my Mission 782s with QED Silv Ann bi-wire!.. and they sound just divine!
However, I've been reading a very interesting (read: technical) discussion over at AV Forums on the subject, http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46335 which seems to conclude what we all secretly know!
vBulletin® v3.8.5, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.