View Full Version : cheapish subwoofers - worth it?
I've recently splurged out (by my standards) on a Marantz 4200 and Mission m71 speaker set - v nice it is too but these darned forums have me wondering about a subwoofer :eek:
I've heard it said that you really need to spend at least £500 to get decent results - is this really true, or would something like the Mission m70as or the Paradigm from RS be a worthwhile investment? I'd be interested to hear what folk with £100 - £200 subs think of their kit. Ta very much!
The Paradigm (pdr10) is a usefull sub for the price. A mate had one and it was a decent introduction to subwoofers.He had no complaints about it and happily used it for 18 months before the upgrade bug took over. :D
Bapapapa
11-03-2002, 20:04
Especially if you have floorstanders a cheap sub will more than likely make your system sound worse and could be difficult to intergrate seamlessly. I'd rather pay the extra and get one that could last through a few upgrades..
WHF, have recently been raving about the MJ Acoustics Pro 50 for £299 which sounds a damn good price if it's as good as they say (wonder how much they paid them - lol!!).
Another option is to get the tools out and build your own - which is what I'm seriously tempted to do. Check out the DIY forums at www.hometheatertalk.com & www.hometheaterforum.com for some monster home made subs!!
The Yamaha SW320 is an amazing Sub for its price..... costs about £300.... I can highly recommend it
take a look at http://www.homecinemaheaven.com/
It all depends what you want your sub for, and what your expectations of it are.
If you have a set of decent floorstanding speakers, then for music IMO it's very doubtful you will really gain anything from using a subwoofer (of any kind). The main speakers can probably handle just about any type of music you throw at them. OK, perhaps church organ music, but little else has any real content at the very low end of the audible spectrum.
Small bookshelf speakers can usually use some help though. In this situation, getting the balance right is crtitical - the blend between speakers and subwoofer needs to be seamless, and the actual quality of the bass the subwoofer produces, needs to be high. Sadly, this usually means relatively expensive too. Done well, and the subwoofer disappears, and nice tight deep bass seems to come straight from the small speakers. There's something odd (but impressive) about listening to small speakers appear to produce really meaty bass - I guess it's a subconscious thing that you simply don't expect it's possible, so it's hard not to be impressed when the impossible suddenly appears to become a reality.
However, IMO it's a slightly different story with home cinema.
For HC use, it could be said that quantity is just as important as quality (actually it has been said :) ). After all, does it really matter whether they get the tonal character of an explosion absolutely correct - very few of us actually know what they sound like in real life anyway.
I've certainly never heard a spaceship flying over my head, so it's quite hard to tell whether it's soft and wallowy or tight and lean - what should it sound like? :)
Another factor is that you are unlikely to be listening with the same degree of criticality you'd listen to music with. Your attention is on the movie itself, the sound is just a part of the overall experience.
I am talking about decent budget subwoofers here though (such as the PDR10 and m70as, amongst others). Don't expect a £50 40W sub with a 6" driver to be able to compete - it won't.
Yes, things like the REL Q150 are undeniably better subs than the say the PDR10 - no argument there, but it doesn't mean that the PDR10 isn't capable of adding that extra dimension to movie soundtracks which many people want, for a reasonable price, because it's certainly capable of that.
Bapapapa
11-03-2002, 23:27
But, doesn't the PDR10 'only' go down to ~50hz? Most half reasonable floorstanders go way lower than that (the Tannoy MXs are rated to the low 30s, although admittedly that's probably slightly optimistic) , so unless you only need the sub to fill out the bottom end when listening/watching movies at low volume, it's not going to really add a lot, is it? Or is it?
Of course HC subs don't need to be as accurate as a music sub, they just need to provide decent amounts of depth and slam to be effective, something I doubt a £100 sub could produce. IMO, anyway.
Fat Bloke
11-03-2002, 23:57
Originally posted by Bapapapa
WHF, have recently been raving about the MJ Acoustics Pro 50 for £299 which sounds a damn good price if it's as good as they say (wonder how much they paid them - lol!!).
I demo'ed the MJ the other day. It was OK but next we tried a Definitive Technology Sub which was £350 and this was SO much better.
Originally posted by Mcbain
The Yamaha SW320 is an amazing Sub for its price..... costs about £300.... I can highly recommend it
I haven't heard it myself but I'm very tempted, especially after being told about this (http://www.hificorner.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Store_Refurbished_Loudspeakers_18.html) place
Bapapapa
12-03-2002, 00:13
Ferkin' Hell!!
Hifi Corner... here I come.
I own a Gale Sub 10 that costs £99 and that impresses me - but it is my 1st subwoofer so I have nothing to compare it against
I've got an Eltax speaker package (less sub) which, according to the instructions, goes as low as 45hz and when I bought my Tosh RPTV, it came with a free sub - an Eltax A8. Nice one, it'll go with my other stuff! However, the A8 is marked as handling down to 45hz as well, so, in theory, does that mean it doesn't really make much of a difference? I must admit, I added the sub a while back now and at the time I remember there not being much of a difference, but I can feel the dedicated bass, but it doesn't really whack me in the face......
should I be looking at a sub which goes lower than my fronts? I assume yes, but I can't stretch to much in terms of budget.
Originally posted by Bapapapa
But, doesn't the PDR10 'only' go down to ~50hz? Most half reasonable floorstanders go way lower than that (the Tannoy MXs are rated to the low 30s, although admittedly that's probably slightly optimistic) , so unless you only need the sub to fill out the bottom end when listening/watching movies at low volume, it's not going to really add a lot, is it? Or is it?
Of course HC subs don't need to be as accurate as a music sub, they just need to provide decent amounts of depth and slam to be effective, something I doubt a £100 sub could produce. IMO, anyway.
The PDR10 has a typical -3dB point at 27Hz.
But these figures, whilst not being exactly misleading, only tell a part of the story - a bit like saying this car has 120bhp, you need to know a bit more than that to be able to estimate performance from figures alone.
True enough, speakers like the MX4 for instance may be very capable in the bass dept, but only if driven with a sufficiently powerful amp.
Many of the 100W x5 amps, collapse to 35W x5 with all channels driven simultaneously - this isn't really enough for very deep bass, which really sucks the juice out of an amp.
Like you though, I'm a bit skeptical about the -3dB point being 31Hz, this is a 6" bass driver we are talking about (the second unit is a mid-bass unit). It leads me to suspect that they have played around with the port tuning quite a lot in order to get this figure - this isn't really a very good idea.
As with any sub, look out for hum and buzz - it seems to be more of an issue at the budget end of the market.
Varies from hardly being aware of it, to being easily audible (which obviously isn't good). There has to be some compromises to get the price down to £150 - with a budget sub you'll be getting an average driver with an average quality amp in a chipboard box. Just like normal speakers though, that doesn't mean they are all crap, but you can't expect £500 class performance for £150.
While I've obviously not heard every sub on the planet, I suspect that the PDR10 is about as good as it gets for this kind of money.
There are probably subs around on a par with it for similar money though.
If you want a sub just to fill out the bottom end with movies and add some impact to explosions etc, and don't want to spend a fortune, then things like the PDR10 will usually fit the bill.
However, if you are expecting REL busting performance from it, you are likely to be a bit disappointed.
Obviously an demo would always be a good idea, especially if you aren't really sure what to expect - if nothing else it gives you a feel for the sort of performance you can expect at varying price levels. If I was looking to spend in the £500 class, the obvious candidate, the REL Q150, would probably top my shortlist.
If looking to spend more than that, I'd have to get out and have a listen to them all first, as I really have little experience of higher end subs.
Incidentally, Tannoy themelves claim the MXSUB10 has a -6dB point at 35Hz (so I'd guess the -3dB would be around 42Hz or so), yet they still recommend the MX4s as fronts with this subwoofer - go figure!!!! :)
(what I'm saying is that it's hard to judge a sub's (or speakers) bass performance potential by just looking at the manufacturer's -3dB point)
I've recently bought a Jamo Asub3.1 to go with my Tannoy M3s so I've got good meaty floorstanders (for the price) and a cheapish sub. I find it is useful to give that cinema rumble to 5.1 soundtracks but has no impact on Pro-Logic or Stereo tracks.
If that's whta your after, and in my case it was. Then a cheapish Sub will certainly beef up you home Cinema.
Appreciate all the replys folks - keep 'em coming!
I'm tempted to for the paradigm pdr10, but I'd be happier if RS would let me try it out at home and return if for a refund if I don't like it, but they will only give me a credit refund...
hificorner.co.uk also looks very tempting - the Yamaha 320 at £200 would likely keep me happy for a while, but I've never heard of them before. Has anyone here used them??
John Hodson
12-03-2002, 15:26
Originally posted by Fat Bloke
I demo'ed the MJ the other day. It was OK but next we tried a Definitive Technology Sub which was £350 and this was SO much better.
I haven't heard it myself but I'm very tempted, especially after being told about this (http://www.hificorner.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Store_Refurbished_Loudspeakers_18.html) place
Typical. I have just replaced my aging Tsunami 200 (made by REL; terrific with music, rubbish with home cinema) with a YST320 after auditioning quite a few and coming to the conclusion that, for bang per buck, the Yammy was hard to beat. At £295 (which is what I paid) it's impressive, at £200 it's a steal.
I am very pleased with the 320; I can now listen to the opening sequence of Unbreakable or the tank attack in Saving Private Ryan without wincing.
---
So many films, so little time...
Originally posted by pwray
hificorner.co.uk also looks very tempting - the Yamaha 320 at £200 would likely keep me happy for a while, but I've never heard of them before. Has anyone here used them??
I haven't used their online store, but they have a couple of shops in Edinburgh where I've bought some B&W speakers in the past with no problems. :)
Fat Bloke
13-03-2002, 00:43
Originally posted by John Hodson
I have just replaced my aging Tsunami 200 with a YST320. At £295 (which is what I paid) it's impressive, at £200 it's a steal.
OK I was tempted by the £200 320, but I couldn't wait :nuts: . I bought a Yamaha YST-SW320 this afternoon from Suttons in Bournemouth. Cost me £275 and I got roughly £30 worth of cable for nowt so still not bothered that I could have got a reconditioned one for £200.
I cannot tell you what is sounds like in my room yet as I'll have to wait until tomorrow to get it in there! I have to rearrange the room to get it through the door!!! The subs not that big, it's just I've got so much cr@p in there the door wont open fully :D
I'll let you know.
I've got a PDR-10 with my Tannoy Mercurys (M3, M1, Mc), so a similar setup to yours I would say.
When I got the Tannoys I mistakenly thought a sub would be pointless as I had floorstanding fronts, thanks to advice from people who obviously knew nothing, some who frequent this forum I might add.
After a while I got the feeling something was missing, so bit the bullet and got the Paradigm. I then had to play all my discs again to see (hear!) what I been missing. Some films gave a completely different experience and in a positive direction I must add, even Winnie the Pooh's Most Grand Adventure took on a whole new life (don't knock it until you here Tigger knock the acorns out of the tree).
Contrary to what some others have said this sub is a perfect match for speakers from this end of the market, they are classed as budget after all, it is virtually identical to the matching Tannoy and in your case Mission ones, but I felt it sounded a bit more 'open' than the Tannoy probably due to it being ported as opposed to sealed as the Tannoy is.
As long as you're not too viscous with the volume knob you won't be disappointed, easiest way to set it up is play something bassy, turn it up until it becomes obtrusive then turn it down until it sounds like its integrated. I found The Fat of the Land was perfect for this although I wouldn't recommend it for using with music, that's where the expensive ones come into their own, as someone has already said, with floorstanding fronts you don't really need it with most music.
The other unexpected benefit i found when adding the sub was how much better the fronts sound without the LFE fed through them like a free upgrade!
If you want to hear (and feel) what your missing in the home cinema experience you won't go wrong with this type of sub, spend a lot if you wish but I don't see the point in having a sub that is vastly better quality than the rest of your system.
Bapapapa
13-03-2002, 13:46
When I got the Tannoys I mistakenly thought a sub would be pointless as I had floorstanding fronts, thanks to advice from people who obviously knew nothing, some who frequent this forum I might add.
Meowww....
Of course it depends on various factors on how beneficial a cheap sub would be when added to a system with floorstanders (some floorstanders are nothing more than bookshelf speakers with a built in stand). How the speakers are driven, sensitivity, frequency rating, room size, listening volume, personal taste etc. all come into the equation.
eg. If your room was 100m^2, your floorstanders were rated down to only 80hz, and you're powering them with a 10w Alba minisystem, then of course a sub would provide more bass. The system would still probably sound like a bag of ****, but you'd definately get more bass.
In fact, the way you've gone about it is exactly what I'd advocate - buy the speakers first, have a play and if you feel the bass is not sufficient - then investigate adding a sub.
Don't worry mate, it wasn't you!
I don't regret not having one first as it made the purchase seem so much more worthwhile.
What I meant was budget (not cheap!) speakers like these cannot give you the sort of bass effects for the full cinema experience and I for one felt there was something missing. Some people take the advice you don't need one, budget accordingly and then find they need more cash to buy a sub when they find it didn't sound like what they were expecting.
The floorstanders are very good for music bass tho, so I don't feel they are pointless.
I always tell people if they buy the lot at once to play an action film with the sub, without it and then in pro-logic and they will see why they spent all that money on going digital.
mohoshin
14-03-2002, 00:22
I am also looking to buy a subwoofer possibly a mission 70as (new model) for around £170.
I would like to know wether this is a better subwoofer then the subwoofer that comes with the sony pascal range (save 525 or 705).
Any comments would be appreciated :)
Coolhand
14-03-2002, 15:24
Originally posted by pwray
I've recently splurged out (by my standards) on a Marantz 4200 and Mission m71 speaker set
I've got exactly the same setup, with matching mission rears.
I had it like that for a few months, then I got a KEF PSW1000 on demo from the local hifi shop. Made an ENORMOUS difference to the overall sound.
Like the other guys say, if you've got floorstanders it's not such a big deal, but the M71s certainly benefit from the addition.
I bought it immediately and it cost me 170 notes.
I didn't demo anything above that price, cos I was so happy with that one, so I can't comment on it's performance vs the pricier units.
John Hodson
14-03-2002, 18:38
Originally posted by Coolhand
I've got exactly the same setup, with matching mission rears.
I had it like that for a few months, then I got a KEF PSW1000 on demo from the local hifi shop. Made an ENORMOUS difference to the overall sound.
Like the other guys say, if you've got floorstanders it's not such a big deal, but the M71s certainly benefit from the addition.
I've got the floorstanding Mission 774's, and. though they have decent enough bass cabability, the subs I've had certainly do make a big difference to the home cinema experience; I love it when the teacups rattle.
Update: about the refurbished Yamaha subs at Hi-Fi Corner, I asked them exactly what they meant by 'refurbished' and they said:
Hi,
the units that are supplied to us are direct from Yamaha themselves having been re-furbished by them.
These are units that have failed in some way their stringent Quality Control checks and therefore have required refurbishment.
As far as we are aware all the units are in 'factory condition', but are of limited supply, unfortunately the refurbished YSTSW320 is not available at this time.
---
So many films, so little time...
vBulletin® v3.8.5, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.