View Full Version : [F1] Ferrari team orders hearing
With the FIA WMSC meeting to discuss Ferrari's use of team orders on Wednesday, thought I'd start a thread - as whatever happens there's sure to be controversy... apparently the Ferrari hearing will start at 3pm, so probably be a few hours after that until we hear anything. Depending on how it goes, I can edit this into a Monza GP thread, as there's sure to be crossover and fallout over the GP weekend.
My own view is that Ferrari should lose the WDC points from the race, but fear the FIA will back down from that and deduct WCC points instead, which would be no punishment at all. Ferrari are in a safe third position in the WCC whatever happens - and the punishment should be in the WDC, as that's what they manipulated. At the very least, I think Alonso should be docked the difference between first and second place, which is the benefit he got from team orders, along with a hefty fine. Anything less than that, and it becomes 'worth it' to openly break the rules in front of everyone.
I also don't think Ferrari have done themselves any favours with postings like this:
http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/100820_F1_Horse_Whisperer.aspx
Looking forward to the controversy! :nuts:
I really cant see WDC points being deducted - I was thinking more of a fine was likely and a suspended ban
No way will they lose WDC points. If there was an infraction it was on the part of the team, not the drivers.
By taking out his own team mate earlier in the season and Button at the last race Vettel has had a far bigger influence on who will win the championship this year than any of Ferrari's actions.
Looking at it again, perhaps it was a bit harsh to say about losing all WDC points from the race, yeah - but a hefty fine for bringing the sport into disrepute would not be unwarranted.
I think a 7 point deduction from Alonso would be fair though, and wouldn't attract too much criticism from either side - and it's not punishing Alonso, it'd just give him the second place he deserved from the race.
The Bear
07-09-2010, 22:58
Yep. 7 WDC points off Alonso is the fairest punishment.
Even funnier would be if they gave Massa an extra 7 points, thereby nullifying the team order. Oh and deducting all the teams WCC points as well so they don't try it again.
Well, that was a boring outcome wasn't it?
Looks like Ferrari have escaped any punishment - disgraceful.
Ferrari gave the cheek to think they are above the rules and to blatantly disregard them is fine. Seems that's true then.
j to tha l-o
08-09-2010, 16:54
It was the right decision. The rule is unenforceable and the FIA can prove nothing. Ferrari graceful to take a fine when they could easily have fought it and brought the sport into disrepute.
To say the rule is unenforcable is like saying the law for murder is unenforcable because some people may cover it up successfully.
Nobody has *any* doubt.
slideymoo
08-09-2010, 17:13
No one has any doubt, but if the driver says he chose to let his teammate pass him for the good of the team, what can they do? At no point was massa told to let alonso pass and they can't make a decision on supposition that he got a coded message, even though the stewards did after the race.
It's a blatant fact that there was a barely coded message, but it can be explained away and thats the pointlessness of it.
The Bear
08-09-2010, 17:20
What a complete farce.
What's $100,000 for the sake of 7 WDC points. More teams will be doing this now.
j to tha l-o
08-09-2010, 18:00
What a complete farce.
What's $100,000 for the sake of 7 WDC points. More teams will be doing this now.
Other teams have been doing it anyway. It's just the other teams were much more careful in the way they communicated their messages than Ferrari that weekend.
Team orders will never disappear from F1, so why do the FIA persist in keeping the rule?
Which is worse, Ferrari basically telling Massa to move over for Alonso, or Red Bull screwing over Mark Webber in favour of a twonk like Vettel?
Personally think the latter is far worse in the grand scheme of things.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Bear
08-09-2010, 18:19
Other teams have been doing it anyway. It's just the other teams were much more careful in the way they communicated their messages than Ferrari that weekend.
I meant more teams won't bother being as careful as in the past.
j to tha l-o
08-09-2010, 18:35
I meant more teams won't bother being as careful as in the past.
They won't have to. The FIA will almost certainly scrap the rule now. So Ferrari has done us all a favour by making a mockery of it.
I meant more teams won't bother being as careful as in the past.
Does it annoy you that team orders are used, or is it just the blatant way Ferrari went about it?
Little_Dragon
08-09-2010, 18:59
What a complete farce.
What's $100,000 for the sake of 7 WDC points. More teams will be doing this now.
No, because the other teams arent called Ferrari, so they might actually get punishment for breaking the rules if they tried it.
This is the substance of the FIA statement on the decision. Now, when I say 'substance'....
After an in depth analysis of all reports, statements and documents submitted, the Judging Body has decided to confirm the Stewards’ decision of a $100,000 fine for infringing article 39.1 of the Sporting Regulations and to impose the payment of the costs incurred by the FIA.http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/08/full-text-world-council-confirms-hockenheim-decision/
Does it annoy you that team orders are used, or is it just the blatant way Ferrari went about it?I know this question wasn't at me, but I'm going to answer - it's not an 'either/or' question - *both* are wrong. I wish team orders could not be part of F1 at all, but as they are, I can understand why teams use them. But Ferrari had the sheer arrogance to do it as if the rule didn't exist for them.
j to tha l-o
08-09-2010, 19:35
I know this question wasn't at me, but I'm going to answer - it's not an 'either/or' question - *both* are wrong. I wish team orders could not be part of F1 at all, but as they are, I can understand why teams use them. But Ferrari had the sheer arrogance to do it as if the rule didn't exist for them.
One member of the Ferrari team handled radio communications incredibly badly. And he should have been fired IMHO. It was hardly the arrogant actions of an entire team. Obviously they had to pull together as a team to minimise the damage afterwards. But I don't believe Team Ferrari acted arrogantly at all. They did what any team would have done in the immediate aftermath.
The FIA reached the only decision it could today, and it was the right one for the sport. It's the governing body that should be looking at itself. They were warned by experts this mess with Ferrari was entirely inevitable, and the rule would be impossible to enforce. It's almost as if the FIA loves all the drama that brings some attention to a sport that gets duller by the year.
slideymoo
08-09-2010, 19:35
This is the substance of the FIA statement on the decision. Now, when I say 'substance'....
http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/08/full-text-world-council-confirms-hockenheim-decision/
I know this question wasn't at me, but I'm going to answer - it's not an 'either/or' question - *both* are wrong. I wish team orders could not be part of F1 at all, but as they are, I can understand why teams use them. But Ferrari had the sheer arrogance to do it as if the rule didn't exist for them.
What I dislike is that they screwed massa. If its in the last few races, fine, but they basically said massa is the rear gunner from before the halfway point because alonso wasnt good enough to get past his teammate.
j to tha l-o
08-09-2010, 19:38
What I dislike is that they screwed massa. If its in the last few races, fine, but they basically said massa is the rear gunner from before the halfway point because alonso wasnt good enough to get past his teammate.
Massa knows his place in the team and gets paid very generously for it. Alonso is obviously the better driver, and is the only man capable of winning the WDC in a Ferrari this year. They couldn't afford to be wasting points on Massa. Harsh but true.
Ferarri "graceful" accepting the fine? :lol:
Massa knows his place in the team and gets paid very generously for it. Alonso is obviously the better driver, and is the only man capable of winning the WDC in a Ferrari this year. They couldn't afford to be wasting points on Massa. Harsh but true.
Alsonso could not win a free legover in a brothel.
Massa knows his place in the team and gets paid very generously for it. Alonso is obviously the better driver, and is the only man capable of winning the WDC in a Ferrari this year. They couldn't afford to be wasting points on Massa. Harsh but true.
It may well be true. But if Massa knows his place then why did he need it so obviously explaining to him :shrug:
Alsonso could not win a free legover in a brothel.
He's won more WDC than any other driver on the grid with the exception of Schumacher. I'd say he can win a fair bit.
Radiohead
08-09-2010, 20:55
He remains an absolute bell-end though. A spoilt little brat.
He's won more WDC than any other driver on the grid with the exception of Schumacher. I'd say he can win a fair bit.
How many dirty wins has he had? The bloke is a cockend of the highest order and will remain so for the rest of his racing days.
Massa knows his place in the team and gets paid very generously for it. Alonso is obviously the better driver, and is the only man capable of winning the WDC in a Ferrari this year. They couldn't afford to be wasting points on Massa. Harsh but true.
Except Alonso cant overtake - his championship wins basically came from sitting on the back fo mclarans and waiting for their reliability issues to take them out of the race or settle for 2nd place. He might be fast with a clear track but I rarely see him actually doing a good overtake maneuver - him stuck behind a virgin racing car 4 seconds slower than his laps and unable to overtake at Monaco was comedy gold.
Arrogant and over-rated for supposedly one of the top drivers. If he was that much faster than Massa he would of overtaken him, he had the chances and he repeatedly fluffed them before pulling the team strings to cheat his way past.
Ferarri "graceful" accepting the fine? :lol:
I really dont know how they will recover from the 100k fine.
I think when you consider that McClaren took a 100mil fine iirc for cheating it puts things into perspective.
He's won more WDC than any other driver on the grid with the exception of Schumacher. I'd say he can win a fair bit.
does that include his wins at singapore and germany? :)
He's won two championships. His character isn't at issue here. I've no doubt that I'm a nicer bloke than Fernando, but if I owned an F1 team I'd still rather have him in the car than me.
statto, whatever facts you produce, they'll simply be countered with tedious excuses and childish gibberish about his personality.
nutter45
09-09-2010, 06:54
There's nothing like a bit of Ferrari anti-sport behaviour to polarise opinions :)
The team order could not have been more blatant in this instance: FA: this is ridiculous; RS: FA is faster than you, do you understand....... Sorry mate.
Yes it goes on elsewhere, but not so obviously and not in such disdain of the rulebook.
Alonso is the root of the problem. He screwed over mclaren when they wouldn't yield to him, I'm sure he had a key role in the piquet/ Singapore incident and he's made the sport look silly again here, in the same way that Schumacher did :oh-hum:
TigaSefi
09-09-2010, 08:15
Talking of Alonso unable to overtake, I saw the highlights of the Italian Monza 1991 GP on the BBC website and Senna went from 5th to 2nd behind Mansell purely by overtaking. Mansell won by overtaking Senna to get 1st earlier in the race. :notworthy Much better than the **** that passes for F1 these days
nutter45
09-09-2010, 09:25
......Much better than the **** that passes for F1 these days
Have you not watched this season? :nuts:
The Bear
09-09-2010, 09:31
FIA president Jean Todt says motor racing's governing body could not hand Ferrari any further sanctions for using team orders at the German Grand Prix, because there was not enough evidence to prove it had broken the rules.
Staggering.
Staggering.
So surely they should have retracted the original fine, since that was for breaking the rules?
TigaSefi
09-09-2010, 10:57
Have you not watched this season? :nuts:
Yeah and sorry, but it just doesn't get me as excited as before. :shrug:
DVDWotcha
09-09-2010, 15:40
Staggering.
Agreed. Using the same logic I could be standing over my dead wife with kitchen knife in hand dripping with blood but because nobody had seen me stab the bitch (;)), I could not be convicted cos there was no proof it was me wot stuck it in her ?
Yes I think they just got away with murder.
The FIA ignored their own investigators advice -
which was to give the win back to Massa, and to give Ferrari a suspended sentence of removing the WDC and WCC points in case of future breaches.
http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/09/wmsc-ignored-own-investigators-advice-to-give-win-to-massa/
The worst part - and this a year after Massa's life-threatening accident:
Intruingly Osterlind determined that was not necessarily the case and found that both drivers had been asked to turn their engines down – before Alonso turned his revs up again “without Mr Felipe Massa’s being informed.”Disgraceful really...
EDIT: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100416/WRC/100419900 :nuts:
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