Doctor Who: s05e13 The Big Bang [Archive]

The404

26-06-2010, 18:28

It was very different to part 1, but I really enjoyed it. The only minor criticisms I have are that we still don't know who was behind bringing the TARDIS to Amy's time to explode and cause the cracks, and i'd like for them to have made a little bit more of The Doctor jumping into previous episodes. The only notable one was the scene in Flesh & Stone.

Also, what happened to the Blue Peter TARDIS console that was supposed to appear at some point this series?

Anyway, just for funsies....my Top 13:

1. The Eleventh Hour
2. Amy's Choice
3. The Big Bang
4. The Pandorica Opens
5. The Time Of Angels
6. Flesh & Stone
7. The Lodger
8. The Beast Below
9. Vincent & The Doctor
10. Victory of the Daleks
11. Cold Blood
12. The Hungry Earth
13. Vampires Of Venice

An excellent series, all said and done...

beaky

26-06-2010, 18:28

Wow!

Chief Brody

26-06-2010, 18:29

So the theories about (poss spoilers) a future Doctor being in Episode 5 were right all along. Great finish to what has, with the possible exception of the Dalek episode and the second Silurian episode, a very strong series. Certainly the best series since the show came back.

KRW

26-06-2010, 18:30

It was very different to part 1, but I really enjoyed it. The only minor criticisms I have are that we still don't know who was behind bringing the TARDIS to Amy's time to explode and cause the cracks, and i'd like for them to have made a little bit more of The Doctor jumping into previous episodes. The only notable one was the scene in Flesh & Stone.

...

Yeah, I still don't get why the Tardis exploded in the first place but I thought it was Amy who brought it back to her wedding day, somehow? Except in the original timeline, her wedding day was the explosion day. Or something. But why or how it originally exploded I dont think I understand.

Excellent episode though. I liked the stone dalek a lot more than its multi-coloured bretheren.

Harold1066

26-06-2010, 18:34

From Flesh and Stone thread

Just watch this back again; and while you can just make on the jacket (its all shot in a tight headshot), I think its just a continuity error; we all know these scenes are recorded out of order.

So how do you reconcile the fact that this entire bit of the conversation makes no sense whatsoever within the episode?

What she did when she was seven had no bearing at all on the outcome or her actions - so why would he say it was so important ?

I'd bet a years salary that it's no error.

Ok I was wrong :thumbs:

Great episode :clap:

fivebyfive

26-06-2010, 18:36

I think in the next series we will find out why the tardis exploded as the Dr mentioned it at the end. Also the dalek looked better, not brightly lit

cliff homewood

26-06-2010, 18:43

Beware Spoilers!

"Absolute nonsensical time travel farce." summed up perfectly by Stephen Moffat, so I'm glad he knew! Grandfather paradox a go go. Reminded me of Bill and Ted with its farcical 'he is saved from the box by himself from the future' solution. Yep, doesn't compute, doesn't make sense. I hate shallow time travel telling like that sometimes and I thought that Bill & Ted showed up how farcical it truly was to stop it ever happening again. Alas it didn't.

Now the skinny, I'll forgive it that, cos overall I loved this episode, the sheer audacity of the episode. The sheer imagination, and could have easily have ended the series, the raggedy doctor that never existed. That in my book would have been a great ending to Doctor Who. To literally have saved the universe and be forgotten by it. Never thought Doctor Who could have had an ending. But the comeback, the myth that is the origins of the Doctor, stealing the TARDIS to escape from Gallifrey, how that was written into the wedding vows to trigger her memory (amy the anamoly). ANd the first time Doctor WHo has pulled off a satisfactory season arc, something it's never really managed to do before, RTD's always just felt like add ons, convoluted. The best season finale since Ecclestons, it grabbed me nearly all the way through, nearly all of it being primal, immediate, effective. And the crapness I started this review with? WEll everyone of RTD's finales has had that (the worst being the dobby Doctor Urgh), the best big scale finale he pulled off had the ludicrous ending of the TARDIS towing the Earth through space. And his best finale, the first - where it wasn't quite so ludicrous and more grounded, still had the farcical moment of the TARDIS being jump started by a tow van.

And I loved the audacity of the pre-credits teaser, "Now kid this is where it gets complicated" speaking directly to the children in the audience as well as Amy.

Superb.

Oh and yes, one of the things I love is not only did it wrap up the "amys crack" storyline, we still have the who caused it all to happen and why mystery (remember the mysterious voice in the TARDIS last week) to propel us forward into the christmas special (or next season). Hopefully Moffat is still building something special.

Alan b

26-06-2010, 18:45

I think in the next series we will find out why the tardis exploded as the Dr mentioned it at the end.

Moffat has just said as much on Confidential, also a running story will be Who is River Song which ties in with the ending.

dynamite

26-06-2010, 18:49

And on Confidential Moffat has just confirmed that next series will focus on "who or what is The Silence" and "who is River Song".

Can't wait :dork::dork::dork:

d.

doh - beat me to it.

jonorigin

26-06-2010, 18:50

I stopped watching the show a couple of episodes into the previous series as I thought it had got so rubbish but thought I should give the new doctor a fair go and i'm so glad i did. It's been the best series ever for me and Matt Smith is fantastic. This episode tied the series up well and set up the next series nicely.

scoobyood

26-06-2010, 19:01

Dam it. It's a bitch to review these when they are awesome :lol:

ajr90

26-06-2010, 19:03

Absolutely ******* loved it. The time-travel shennanigans at the start, "It's a fez. Fez's are cool", Amy's "You're late for my wedding speech", and a shedload of other things besides were highlights for me.

Moffat shows that, despite what RTD always thought, you can make bonkers stuff that makes sense. The care and craft put into the plot was exemplary, the way little things all came together to get the end result - and the bit from the Weeping Angels episode paying off was masterful. And of top of that, leaving some things to be carried over to the next series is just another masterstroke! No neat box every year for Mr Moffat, clearly.

This is how TV should be done, this is why I was always so scathing of the **** RTD pumped out, this is SPARTA! Er, I mean, this is just wonderful TV.

Moffat, I think I love you.

Wilson

26-06-2010, 19:24

well bar 2 or 3 eps of Tennants reign which were just incredible (family of blood, the angels one and girl in the fireplace), Matt Smith has been the best doctor of the run so far. So i take back all i thought of the decision to have someone younger do it this time round. Excellent series all round.

Only niggle was that since the two screwdrivers caused sparks when touched together, why didnt Dr of the future blow the head off Dr of the present when he appeared in the museum and grabbed hold of him? Oh and the daft resolution of how he got out of the cube! Silliness, but fogiven by the "Fez's are cool" line :)

And is Rory still plastic then or did he reset when it all kicked off?

Cant wait for xmas :D Should make up for all the crappy socks i'll be getting.

Spooky_uk

26-06-2010, 19:25

Awesome.

That is all.

+1 except you missed the ******* before the awesome :thumbs:

sleepy67

26-06-2010, 19:29

Very good finale to a generally v. good season, one thing I'd like to mention that's not been mentioned yet is just how good Matt Smith was in this episode. Everyone else brought their A game but he, yet again, stood above them all.

Glad that next season we'll get some answers to the River mystery, as there's been enough hinting.

Can't wait till Christmas which I'd expect to be pretty much a stand alone adventure and not the opening of the River/Silence arc.

sleepy67

26-06-2010, 19:31

And is Rory still plastic then or did he reset when it all kicked off?He's human, everything was reset when the Pandorica/Tardis blew up.

dynamite

26-06-2010, 19:31

cet

26-06-2010, 19:43

It's a predestination paradox.

The404

26-06-2010, 19:45

Very good finale to a generally v. good season, one thing I'd like to mention that's not been mentioned yet is just how good Matt Smith was in this episode. Everyone else brought their A game but he, yet again, stood above them all.

Agreed. That speech he gave to a sleeping Amelia was fantastic. If I wasn't such a manly man, I might have had a lump in my throat when he delivered the "the times we had, would have had, never had" line.....

...*cough*

He's certainly my favourite Doctor now. Hurry up November so I can buy the Blu-Ray box set!

scoobyood

26-06-2010, 19:46

It's a predestination paradox.

Also an ontological (information) paradox.

cet

26-06-2010, 19:56

Yes indeed, they are both linked.

JonLaidlow

26-06-2010, 20:02

Unlike many of the RTD-era episodes, this was so good I didn't mind that it didn't make a lot of sense, or explain much.....

TheCookieMonster

26-06-2010, 20:02

Stunning, stunning stuff, shows how we can compete on big American Sci-Fi when you have a man who can write scripts as well as Moffat, if anyone hasn't watched them yet, please seek out Coupling. The performances in this were top notch, it delivered emotion in spades without being a cliche. I love that Rory and Amy are now married and they are both now joining the Doctor on more adventures :thumbs:

Toge

26-06-2010, 20:06

Great show. Dad thought it was pap though :lol:

lardarse

26-06-2010, 20:08

So no ones going to mention the reset button then?

gjkendall

26-06-2010, 20:09

Brilliant brilliant brilliant

gjkendall

26-06-2010, 20:11

So no ones going to mention the reset button then?

A well written reset though!

The404

26-06-2010, 20:18

if anyone hasn't watched them yet, please seek out Coupling.

Skip series 4 though, which was a bit meh...

ajr90

26-06-2010, 20:18

A well written reset though!

That is was - and it's not even a total reset, as there are still plot strands left hanging for next season. I say again, brilliant plotting from the Grand Moff.

Toge

26-06-2010, 20:25

Skip series 4 though, which was a bit meh...

+1 :thumbs:

PaulieC79

26-06-2010, 20:33

Absolutely brilliant stuff. The plotting was superb and the pay off with scene from the weeping angels episode :notworthy.

Yes, it was nonsensical at times but it worked because it wasn't just everything thrown at the screen to see what sticks, it had a plot. River Song is just such a great creation as well. When the Doctor turned up at the wedding in his outfit I had a massive smile on my face like a 5 year old. Thank you Mr Moffatt.

A great move as well to leave the arc open for next season. I just can't wait now.

kirok1

26-06-2010, 20:35

Loved it. Great fun and very touching. Matt Smith is excellent and plays the eccentricities to a tee.

Does his return also mean that he is back to count one, i.e. Hartnell, having been pretty much restored from non-existence or merely a continuation?

I wondered because of all the links to the Hartnell era and the rumours of series one etc. (Without getting into all the complications from Brain of Morbius...)

JonLaidlow

26-06-2010, 20:41

I don't think we should try to tie it together so intricately - it'll fall apart! I'm sure all is as before... Loved it tho.

CLH

26-06-2010, 20:42

Just the most satisfying hour of TV this year.

Matt Smith owns the role. And count me as one of the people who swore that they'd never watch it again once he was unveiled.

luffk

26-06-2010, 20:43

I ******* loved this. The first twenty minutes or so when he is zipping around and putting everything in place was brilliantly realised. Apart from a handful of duff episodes this really was a fantastic series. I'll be buying this on blu-ray when it comes out.

AdamBrunt

26-06-2010, 20:49

So if Rory is the one who releases The Doctor from the Pandorica, but the Doctor has to be released to be able to give him the sonic scredriver in the first place, how does he got out to do that in the first place ;)

d.

Very good question and IMO the one negative point in the whole episode. But unsurprisingly (probably given how good the series has been) Moffat appears to have got away with it. The cynic in me believes if RTD had done the above this forum would have gone into meltdown.

hookbeak

26-06-2010, 20:55

Loved it. Great fun and very touching. Matt Smith is excellent and plays the eccentricities to a tee.

Does his return also mean that he is back to count one, i.e. Hartnell, having been pretty much restored from non-existence or merely a continuation?

I saw the doctor coming back as this : the crack erased his existence - meaning he never existed. However, when Amy remembered him this meant he *must* have existed. If he must have existed then therefore he did exist and couldn't be deleted by the crack.

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey

CLH

26-06-2010, 20:57

hookbeak

26-06-2010, 21:04

It wasn't much of a reset though - only Rory coming back (which I think we all saw coming) and Amy gaining parents. Everything that happened still happened. Ish.

c9550904

26-06-2010, 21:07

Moffat has just said as much on Confidential, also a running story will be Who is River Song which ties in with the ending.

Is he/she?!? Shouldn't that be spoilered?!? :lol:

It was a good ep, but I came away feeling a bit underwhelmed. Not sure why - I'll have to go away and give it another watch :) Cracking season overall though!

PaulieC79

26-06-2010, 21:08

I loved River making the Dalek beg for mercy! Adds even more mystery to who she is that a Dalek is that scared of her.

marc_angelus

26-06-2010, 21:17

I loved River making the Dalek beg for mercy! Adds even more mystery to who she is that a Dalek is that scared of her.

and did she really kill it? You didn't see her do it, and there wasn't even an off camera gun shot

Jim989

26-06-2010, 21:46

This IS Doctor Who :clap:

Fantastic reset.. way to get rid of all the **** baggage that was handed down from the RTD days.

But it never answered the biggest question of the whole series, where are the ducks? ;) :lol:

Wooglie

26-06-2010, 21:58

Loved the "something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue" being the tardis, brilliant bit of script writing there not to mention the rest of the episode. Loved it :thumbs:

Woz

26-06-2010, 21:59

I loved River making the Dalek beg for mercy! Adds even more mystery to who she is that a Dalek is that scared of her.

That sequence seems to confirm that she's not one of his companions - the Dalek misjudged her because ALL the Doctor's associates show mercy. Suggests to me that she's a bad 'un!

Unlike many of the RTD-era episodes, this was so good I didn't mind that it didn't make a lot of sense, or explain much.....

It's worth watching Confidential, because it really did make sense and explain a lot. The plot of this episode really hinges on something that's run through the whole series - someone's never completely gone if anyone remembers them.
I thought it was incredibly well written and managed to have an emotional resolution (in both senses of the word) without being schmaltzy.
If only Moffat had been the head writer on Lost ;)

gjkendall

26-06-2010, 22:18

This series has been nigh on perfect...I was smiling like a loom throughout tonight episode...Matt smith is the doctor for me...he has taken tom bakers scarve and turned it into a bow tie/fez...a surely brilliant doctor that channels Keith Floyd...

ColinP

26-06-2010, 22:20

Utterly astonished - managed to be bigger than any RTD finale, but at the same time far more personal and actually made sense. It was amazingly clever plotting from the start with a real arc and no attempt at having to explain everything away.

It was enthralling, funny, sad, intelligent and probably the best thing Moffat has written so far. Smith is by leaps ahead of Tennant in acting ability too and I am really excited about the Christmas special now - something brilliant to look forward to rather than having that feeling that you know you'll be disappointed.

The404

26-06-2010, 22:23

That sequence seems to confirm that she's not one of his companions - the Dalek misjudged her because ALL the Doctor's associates show mercy. Suggests to me that she's a bad 'un!

If she's that bad, why will the Doctor give her a sonic screwdriver that will allow her to be saved in Forest of the Dead?

mnementh

26-06-2010, 22:25

That was just chuffin' brilliant

TomBarker

26-06-2010, 22:32

Moffat has just said as much on Confidential, also a running story will be Who is River Song which ties in with the ending.

Seems pretty clear to me:

- Keeps a detailed notebook on their life together
- Has frequent reasons they need to meet
- Has items that she claims are presents from him

Some kind of stalker.

TonyG

26-06-2010, 22:35

Stunning finale that worked on every level. Also the best performance from Matt Smith that hammered home how much better he is than Tennant. Sure, the story is paradoxes-a-go-go if you sit & think about it for a nanosecond but who the **** cares when its written so damn well. :notworthy

dvds2000

26-06-2010, 23:00

Brilliant episode, even though I've had to watch again to get it properly :lol:

I do think all the 'Smith is better than Tennant' comments are a little unfair. Tennant was pretty good in the odd episode where he wasn't running down corridors and pulling funny faces (ie the Moffat written ones), so I'm sure if Matt Smith had been the Doctor in Series 2-4, and Tennant in this one, it would have been Tennant getting the praise. It's hardly the actors fault if he plays a character the way he is told to. That said, I'm not trying to take anything away from Smith, as he has been excellent all through this series.

It must be really hard to write a series that the whole family can watch together, and them all properly enjoy. My daughter (10) was nearly crying when she thought the Doctor had been erased from history and wasn't coming back, and she actually said 'yeeeessss' under her breath when she realised the tardis was appearing at the wedding.

The writing for the whole series for me has ranged from good to excellent, with the finale being the icing on the cake. I was fully expecting it to be 'every monster in the universe v The Doctor, but luckily they steered away from that.

10/10 for that episode from me :thumbs:

eye__writ

26-06-2010, 23:00

More River Song next season is all I need to know. Jodhpurs are cooler than bow-ties. :luv:

Space Coyote

26-06-2010, 23:25

I'm pretty sure I've never posted in a Dr Who thread before, but I've got to say how big a leap in quality this series has been from the RTD years. I gave up on the last few series and only saw sporadic episodes as I was fed up trying to like a programme and being constantly let down....in fact I only eventually watched the weeping angels episode as a mate kept raving about it and it was repeated on Gold or something one Sunday afternoon.

This series though is how it should have been back when Who returned. Not every episode has been amazing but none have sank anywhere near burping wheelie bins etc
In fact it's like a whole new show. It's a kids show that adults can enjoy again, and not one that adults can't criticise the writing of as 'it's for kids'

Matt Smith has been excellent. From the first episode he hasn't put a foot wrong and has just the right feel for it.
For the first time in years, I'm a Dr Who fan again.

MovieMax

26-06-2010, 23:27

Good fun, thankfully not too over the top sentiment wise, a good end to what I consider to be the strongest series so far. Already looking forward to the next.

Kevin

27-06-2010, 00:07

Absolutely incredible. A truly fantastic ending to a brilliant season.

I've said it since episode 1, but it is worth saying again, Matt Smith is simply superb as The Doctor :notworthy

There was just so much good stuff in this episode, that it is difficult to know where to start, but I loved the jumping around early on....the mop, the drink, the top pocket.

The chemistry of everyone, including (plastic) Rory was a joy to watch. Karen Gillan and Matt were brilliant together, and I really hope that they keep the partnership for a long time to come.

Looking back over all the Doctor/companion partnerships, Jon Pertwee/Jo Grant, Tom Baker/Leela, Christopher Eccleston-David Tennant/Rose. All were excellent, but even after just the one season together, Matt Smith/Amy Pond is by far my favourite pairing.

I can't believe how fast this season has come and gone, and six months to the next episode...that's a looong time to wait.

Well done to the whole Doctor Who team, who took the franchise to whole new level this season. The best TV of the year, by a long shot.

Sprout Crumble

27-06-2010, 00:12

I also obvously need to watch it again because it seemed a bit of a mess on first viewing.
Will give it the benefit of the doubt though and reserve final opinions.

Kevin

27-06-2010, 00:23

I also obvously need to watch it again because it seemed a bit of a mess on first viewing.
Will give it the benefit of the doubt though and reserve final opinions.

You can't watch ep13 as a single episode, you can't even watch it as simply the 2nd part of a two parter, it has to be watched as the finale of a season leading up to this point, guiding the viewer to a particular sequence of events (and pre-events, for that matter).

There was so much that happened over the entire season that had a bearing on the final two episodes, and that's one of the reasons why I am so impressed with Steven Moffat's story telling/direction throughout the whole season. All superbly told by Matt & Karen :notworthy

Ricinus

27-06-2010, 00:55

I was as excited as my kid before the episode and I wasn't let down. I absolutely loved every last minute of it.

:clap: to those that spotted the extra Doctor in the Weeping Angels episode. I told my daughter about it at the time. Then tonight as the reveal approached and I said "this is it... the Weeping Angels bit" she sat bolt upright and her jaw dropped.

My wife said it was a bit complicated and I said - GOOD, about time had to think a bit.

In all a great series, a great Doctor and a mostly great companion.

Toge

27-06-2010, 01:26

sleepy67

27-06-2010, 05:45

please seek out Coupling.

Skip series 4 though, which was a bit meh...or do what i do and just ff through the Olivercentric scenes. The rest of S4 is pretty good.

sleepy67

27-06-2010, 05:53

I do think all the 'Smith is better than Tennant' comments are a little unfair. Tennant was pretty good in the odd episode where he wasn't running down corridors and pulling funny faces (ie the Moffat written ones), so I'm sure if Matt Smith had been the Doctor in Series 2-4, and Tennant in this one, it would have been Tennant getting the praise. It's hardly the actors fault if he plays a character the way he is told to. :thumbs:

Woz

27-06-2010, 07:02

My wife said it was a bit complicated and I said - GOOD, about time had to think a bit.

It WAS complicated, but my 8 year old followed it fine and was telling me what was happening - I had to shush him a few times!

Confidential was good - Moffatt went into some of the reasons for the mop and the fez and how they helped people follow the thread of events. Very clever stuff, without treating the audience like morons :notworthy

Jaime

27-06-2010, 07:12

I enjoyed it, but I don't really get the Moffat love. His writing is fantastic, but his plots are every bit as Deus Ex Machiny as RTD's were. The tehcnobabble Big Bang 2 was bad enough without Amy wishing the Doctor back into existence.

The Doctor's characterisation and Smith's acting saved it, as always for me.

Xeon007

27-06-2010, 07:15

Really enjoyed it, and I don't mind paradoxes. :D

Matt Smith has been truly awesome, he's only one day older than me but he makes me believe he's a 900+ year old Time Lord. Top stuff, roll on the Christmas episode.

ajr90

27-06-2010, 07:45

his plots are every bit as Deus Ex Machiny as RTD's were.

No, they really aren't. Moffat didn't pull something random out of a hat at the end of the episode in order to conclude it. Everything he did, he'd set up throughout the run.

Jaime

27-06-2010, 08:10

No, they really aren't. Moffat didn't pull something random out of a hat at the end of the episode in order to conclude it. Everything he did, he'd set up throughout the run.

The Pandorica suddenly being able to fly and regenerate the universe came out of nowhere...

lardarse

27-06-2010, 08:17

fivebyfive

27-06-2010, 08:25

The Pandorica suddenly being able to fly and regenerate the universe came out of nowhere...

it was able to because it contained some of the universe :dork: it restored the dalek in the museum when it opened.

Jaime

27-06-2010, 08:36

it was able to because it contained some of the universe :dork: it restored the dalek in the museum when it opened.

Which makes no sense whatsoever as it was somehow able to restore the universe and the dalek from memory, but it had already been set up that it needed Amelia to touch it so that it could restore Amy.

fivebyfive

27-06-2010, 08:59

its still better than any of the crap that has passed themselves off as series finale (also it was done without the bigger budget)

for example the super friends kill the "stephen hawking" dalek, plus "Dr donna" :gag: then the Tardis tows the Earth back

Sound of drums :gag:

KRW

27-06-2010, 09:19

The only thing I have slight reservations about is the sudden reliance on time travel to sove problems. Dr Who has usually gone out of its way to avoid this by making it against the rules, otherwise pretty much everything the doctor comes up against can be resolved by his future self coming back to save him.

That sonic screwdriver catch-all would have had some of you going insane in the **** poor rtd years.

Never mind having to have two of them at one point.

Grandmaster

27-06-2010, 09:23

The most impenetrable prison in the whole of history.

Unless you have a sonic screwdriver of course.

That sonic screwdriver catch-all would have had some of you going insane in the **** poor rtd years.

Er it was established it was impenetrable from the inside, not the outside.

Complain all you want but this is the key difference between an RTD "extravaganza" and Moffat's plotting: within the confines of the story by and large it is consistent. Stuff doesn't just happen for the sake of it happening. It is explained.

The Pandorica suddenly being able to fly and regenerate the universe came out of nowhere...

The universe was dead, non existent and the Pandorica preserved billions of atoms from the old universe. The regeneration was a side-effect of the stasis - as the Doctor said, "it forces you to stay alive", an effect that was massively amplified by Big Bang 2.

In terms of him being able to pilot it, that was explained as well - he'd wired up the vortex manipulator to control it.

The only thing I have slight reservations about is the sudden reliance on time travel to sove problems. Dr Who has usually gone out of its way to avoid this by making it against the rules, otherwise pretty much everything the doctor comes up against can be resolved by his future self coming back to save him.

As Moffat said, it's OK to bend universal rules when there is no longer a universe in existence.

TomBarker

27-06-2010, 09:24

Which makes no sense whatsoever as it was somehow able to restore the universe and the dalek from memory, but it had already been set up that it needed Amelia to touch it so that it could restore Amy.

The Pandorica contained a memory of the universe that existed when it closed - which included live Daleks and a mostly dead (I too love the Princess Bride) Amy; if itrestored the universe to that memory then Amy would have been mostly dead in 1996 too.

The Pandorica flying annoyed me a little; if the digital watch had transported the Pandorica into the explosion then it would have kept with the rules they created (although it would have prevented a nod to The Abyss).

thescrounger

27-06-2010, 10:03

Had some nice moments, but generally it was a let down after last weeks build and you couldn't help feeling it was just a load of old nonsense. I found it hard to actually give a crap.

Jim989

27-06-2010, 10:30

The most impenetrable prison in the whole of history.

Unless you have a sonic screwdriver of course.

That sonic screwdriver catch-all would have had some of you going insane in the **** poor rtd years.

I could have sworn it was mentioned that the only way in was to use DNA of what is on the inside on the outside, thus making it impossible to get out unless you were already out. It was primed to activate on the Drs DNA, so his touch started it to open. The sonic had an imprint of his DNA so 'point-n-shoot' was sending it to the pandorica. Then young Amy could open it in the future for old Amy because of the DNA match.

Or did I just make all that up :thinking:

The404

27-06-2010, 10:42

The Pandorica contained a memory of the universe that existed when it closed - which included live Daleks and a mostly dead (I too love the Princess Bride) Amy; if itrestored the universe to that memory then Amy would have been mostly dead in 1996 too.

In that case, is the restored Rory an Auton? Also, why didn't the real Rory exist when Amy remembered him at the end of episode 12? Surely Rory should have lept back into existence, as well as the Auton doppelganger. :thinking:

KRW

27-06-2010, 10:50

I'm not sure about the restored Rory being an Auton. They sort of glossed over that with River Song saying she had a relationship with one once. I thought he was back to being the real one at the end as the whole universe was restored including all the things Amy had forgotten, like her parents and so on.

I think Moffat did the impossible in making Rory a likeable character. He was dull as dishwater when first introduced but I grew to quite like him by the end.

marc_angelus

27-06-2010, 10:57

I think Amy remembering Rory is what caused his Nestene self to remain 'human' for 2000 years. The 'real' Rory was dead before the rewind anyway, so the Nestene one would be the only one in existence at that point.

I do think the Pandorica flying into the Tardis was a bit cheesy, since it was tied to the Vortex Manipulator it should have just teleported there like the Doctor and River teleported when they used it, but that I suppose that wouldn't have made for such an exciting scene.

I'm disappointed to hear Moffat's comments about breaking the time travel rules because the universe is ending, i was hoping he would be using time travel more intelligently going forward but i guess it was just a one off :( I do wonder what has been undone other than the 'crack' stuff though. That could be an interesting theme for the next series, little changes caused by erasing himself from history..

ajr90

27-06-2010, 10:59

The Pandorica suddenly being able to fly and regenerate the universe came out of nowhere...

No, it didn't.

The regeneration ability was all laid out right from the start of the episode. The Pandorica keeps Amy alive, the light from it restored the stone Dalek, and the Doctor was able to use this knowledge to figure out how to solve the problem of the Universe unravelling. It's all there in the story, right from the start.

Exactly the opposite of a deus ex machina.

kirok1

27-06-2010, 11:24

All of this long term plotting and still no answer.
Is Smith Hartnell?

Lots of hints - one of the biggest being that his Library card is Hartnell's with no psychic paper stuff.

Song doesn't have to be a baddy - but there is still the possibility of the Rani if we're desperate, I suppose. Could she not just be a little less lilly white than other companions? Leela wanted to kill everyone! (Whereas everyone wanted to kill Mel - Bonnie Langford for those not traumatised to remember - linking back to the Rani...).

Lots of things to carry forward and no TARDIS towing a planet etc.

As for paradoxes - only thing I ever saw or read that used Time Travel at all that didn't have paradoxes is Lightning by Dean Koontz. No one goes back, only forward, so you don't affect your own stream. Good book.
Terminator, Back To The Future, Time and Again etc all fail if you look too hard at paradoxes.

Besides, it is supposed to be fun. Over analysis leads to you sitting at a keyboard inside on a lovely day like this!

(Hang on...)

Harsin

27-06-2010, 11:56

Lots of hints - one of the biggest being that his Library card is Hartnell's with no psychic paper stuff.

No, he's clearly stated he's the 11th incarnation on at least one occasion and the library card was just a fanservice gag about how he'd never got around to updating it. Reminds me of the first series where any character that looked at the Doctor askance was assumed to be the Master on Outpost Gallifrey.

As for this episode, it's strange one, there was loads of stuff in there that if it had happened in an RTD finale I'd probably have been on here moaning about. I mean Amy remembering the Doctor and him popping back into existence isn't a million miles away from everyone on Earth thinking about him at once and giving him superpowers. I guess in the end it all comes down to the actual quality of writing around it and Matt Smith's performance. I always felt that Tennant came across as a try-hard, a kind of intergalactic version of Colin Hunt, whereas Smith actually presents someone you can buy as an old eccentric alien.

Ricinus

27-06-2010, 12:56

(Whereas everyone wanted to kill Mel - Bonnie Langford for those not traumatised to remember

oh God ! now I've remembered her will she be brought back to life?:eek:

fivebyfive

27-06-2010, 13:34

there was loads of stuff in there that if it had happened in an RTD finale I'd probably have been on here moaning about. I mean Amy remembering the Doctor and him popping back into existence isn't a million miles away from everyone on Earth thinking about him at once and giving him superpowers.

I disagree as if the Dr got super powers to save the day in this episode, I know people on here wouldn't of been impressed.

As you said its the quality of the writing, everything was built up but the sound of drums episode, "everyone on Earth thinking about him at once and gives him super powers " just come out of no where and it saves the day :nuts:

marc_angelus

27-06-2010, 13:44

As for this episode, it's strange one, there was loads of stuff in there that if it had happened in an RTD finale I'd probably have been on here moaning about. I mean Amy remembering the Doctor and him popping back into existence isn't a million miles away from everyone on Earth thinking about him at once and giving him superpowers.

The big difference being that people being erased from time, and remembering who you are and who other people are to save them, have been recurring themes throughout the series, so however corny it may have been, it worked purely because it wasn't just out of the blue like the "power of the word" finale of S3.

Grandmaster

27-06-2010, 14:01

Or the "let's create a half-human Doctor and make the companion half-Timelord and then have her press random buttons to make millions of Daleks explode" plot we got from the finale of S4...

marc_angelus

27-06-2010, 14:52

Or the "let's create a half-human Doctor and make the companion half-Timelord and then have her press random buttons to make millions of Daleks explode" plot we got from the finale of S4...

although the half timelord thing was mapped out ever since the runaway bride episode, so that part wasn't quite so deus ex machina-like.

ajr90

27-06-2010, 15:00

although the half timelord thing was mapped out ever since the runaway bride episode, so that part wasn't quite so deus ex machina-like.

No it wasn't, and yes it was.

RTD may have had it in mind since the Runaway Bride episode, but he did NOTHING to show the viewer he had that in mind, nothing to lead the viewer up to seeing how that it could come about. Instead he kept it in his pocket and pulled it out at the very last moment with no pre-indication - the very definiton of a deus ex machina.

ColinP

27-06-2010, 15:06

although the half timelord thing was mapped out ever since the runaway bride episode, so that part wasn't quite so deus ex machina-like.

Donna being half-Timelord? Given RTD didn't have ANY plans to bring her back and it only happened as a result of his original plans with a different new companion going tits up I don't think that's the case.

marc_angelus

27-06-2010, 16:00

fivebyfive

27-06-2010, 16:06

Well the particles she contained in the Runaway Bride, which attracted the Tardis, were timelord energy weren't they?

no it wasn't (had to look it up) as never watched it again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Runaway_Bride_%28Doctor_Who%29#Synopsis

Grandmaster

27-06-2010, 16:10

although the half timelord thing was mapped out ever since the runaway bride episode, so that part wasn't quite so deus ex machina-like.

Afraid it wasn't! Donna was never intended to be a proper companion beyond that special any way, that was all arranged later on.

Boink!

27-06-2010, 19:49

... and it only happened as a result of his original plans with a different new companion going tits up
Who was this then?

ColinP

27-06-2010, 19:54

Who was this then?

It was covered in 'A Writers Tale' I believe...

RTD originally had plans for someone called 'Penny' to be the companion in series four and I believe they were as far as casting her but something went wrong.

hookbeak

27-06-2010, 20:04

Well the particles she contained in the Runaway Bride, which attracted the Tardis, were timelord energy weren't they?

and then throughout the series, the Doctor kept mentioning that there was something 'off' about her and it seemed like more than a coincidence that the tardis found her again.

The other coincidence of meeting wilf and him turning out to be donnas grandfather was a product of circumstance too. Wilf never would have existed if the actor who played donnas dad in the runaway bride hadn't died of cancer just after filming began. Bernard cribbins was brought in as s last minute replacement.

Jedibitch

27-06-2010, 20:04

Just watched this and what a great finish to an excellent series. Really hope they give Moffat more budget for next year as he is writing some corking British TV.

And love the idea of an arc over an arc story that goes over seasons, really does keep me coming back if they keep it clever.

pompeyfan

27-06-2010, 20:06

Had some nice moments, but generally it was a let down after last weeks build and you couldn't help feeling it was just a load of old nonsense. I found it hard to actually give a crap.

Same here

CLH

27-06-2010, 20:34

Sorry, but anyone who didn't want to punch the air on "something blue," is dead to me. ;)

scoobyood

27-06-2010, 20:44

Review is up...

http://cult.thedigitalfix.co.uk/Content/250/the-big-bang.html

TheoGB

27-06-2010, 20:59

I really enjoyed it but my mate hated it. His reason was the lack of actual bad guy at all combined with the lack of explanation as to how the TARDIS was made to explode being left over for next series. While I don't agree with him I can accept those points as valid criticism.

I agree about the 'something blue' bit - very good work.

Roberto

27-06-2010, 21:08

Best Dr Who episode ever, Sorry but true

About bloody time they messed about with time travel like the Doctor was doing at the begining, very BTTF and great fun

TomBarker

27-06-2010, 21:09

Review is up...

http://cult.thedigitalfix.co.uk/Content/250/the-big-bang.html
I'll take issue with part of that. The reason he didn't open the box straight away (and I'm presuming he could have done that quite easily had he tried) was because he had no idea what was inside. If anything that approach was different to the 'suck it and see' doctor we've seen before but that's a small quibble.

scoobyood

27-06-2010, 21:32

I'll take issue with part of that. The reason he didn't open the box straight away (and I'm presuming he could have done that quite easily had he tried) was because he had no idea what was inside. If anything that approach was different to the 'suck it and see' doctor we've seen before but that's a small quibble.

I considered that and even if the Doctor had said he could open it in a jiffy, (which he didn't).. it still would have felt cheap. The build up was that this is an unopenable box and the pay off was that it was a prison fit to contain the Doctor. They did need to make it slightly more difficult to open than "point the sonic screwdriver at it".

TomBarker

27-06-2010, 22:00

KRW

27-06-2010, 22:00

I considered that and even if the Doctor had said he could open it in a jiffy, (which he didn't).. it still would have felt cheap. The build up was that this is an unopenable box and the pay off was that it was a prison fit to contain the Doctor. They did need to make it slightly more difficult to open than "point the sonic screwdriver at it".

I too, got the impression it was sealed tight in the first half, but remember it was empty then. It was just a trap and it only activated itself when they chucked the doctor inside. Like not being able to eject a disk tray before turning a dvd player on, sort of thing.

I really enjoyed it but my mate hated it. His reason was the lack of actual bad guy at all combined with the lack of explanation as to how the TARDIS was made to explode being left over for next series. While I don't agree with him I can accept those points as valid criticism.

I agree about the 'something blue' bit - very good work.

I concur to a degree about the lack of bad guy. Villains have been somewhat absent from this series, Stone Angels aside, its all been mostly misunderstood aliens and the like. Even the Daleks spent a lot of time being helpful. Needs more villainy for season 2, I think.

Walrus Man

27-06-2010, 22:03

Sorry, but anyone who didn't want to punch the air on "something blue," is dead to me. ;)Agreed. :notworthy

Loved the mention of him stealing / borrowing it earlier in the episode, great setup.

Boink!

27-06-2010, 22:04

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9282/tumblrl4ovxrwbd61qa10u7.jpg

gjkendall

27-06-2010, 22:14

Why did the doctor not start to regenerate when he was zapped by the dalek?

scoobyood

27-06-2010, 22:16

If it's not already that Fez is going to be an accessory that comes with the doll by Christmas. If it's not then the BBC toy licensees just aren't the money hungry capitalists I thought they were.

ajr90

27-06-2010, 22:23

Why did the doctor not start to regenerate when he was zapped by the dalek?

Because he wasn't dead.

new

28-06-2010, 05:24

Like most/all here, loved this and the series.

Will have to watch the whole lot again when I get the Blu for Xmas, but would rank this as the best series of Who since the come back ("series 1" was my favorite).

Smith has been a revelation as the Doctor.
His time jumping bits at the start of this episode were just comedy gold, his care for Amy really come across well and was just so believable in a mentor/father sort of way, and his interplay with River is just 'fantastic'.

Have to say as good as this series was, I do still like a fair bit (around 70%) of the RTD years, but some of the stuff we have seen this years has been way above some of it too. Actually to be fair to RTD (and the Moff) some has been above a lot of the classic Who as well.

Jaime

28-06-2010, 06:51

Review is up...

http://cult.thedigitalfix.co.uk/Content/250/the-big-bang.html

Disagree with what you said about the guest writers. It was the regular writers (Chibnall, Gatiss) who dropped the ball. Nye and Curtis were a revelation and wrote the two best non-Moffat episodes to me.

Makes me all the more excited for Gaiman next year.

ian turner

28-06-2010, 07:01

But...but...that's been the resolution to at least 95% of problems over the last 5 years.
Which is why they got rid of the sonic screwdriver last time.
It's more omnipotent than Harry Potters magic wand.
Now they've added psychic paper in to double the stupidity.
They spent most of the last 20 minutes setting up for the punch line which seemed to be pulling "you do believe in fairies don't you children" from Peter Pan (though that has to be better than the various Wizard of Oz lines RTD went for).

CLH

28-06-2010, 07:09

Why did the doctor not start to regenerate when he was zapped by the dalek?

Because he wasn't dead.

Because if RTD's version remains canon the Doc can survive for around 73 years now before his regeneration completes.

new

28-06-2010, 07:38

Disagree with what you said about the guest writers. It was the regular writers (Chibnall, Gatiss) who dropped the ball. Nye and Curtis were a revelation and wrote the two best non-Moffat episodes to me.

Makes me all the more excited for Gaiman next year.

Have to say I liked Chibnall's (he has only written one other story for Who since its come back so dont think he could be classed as a 'regular writer') two parter (I even hope there is some sort of follow up next series to it) and was quite surprised the knocking it took, but hay the world would be a dull place if we all liked the same thing.

The only ones that left me wanting this series was the Vampires one, and the Dalek one (although I enjoyed the Dalek one up until the final third with the whole bomb stopped detonating by wanting to be human bit).

TheoGB

28-06-2010, 08:00

I just assumed that once the Pandorica had been opened it wasn't locked in the same way. Maybe the screwdriver's due to be removed next series. If there's a lot more River Song we might see her penultimate meeting where he gives her his screwdriver (steady, I'm not being euphemistic) and then maybe that'll be that.

Even without it the Doctor will always need to rely on something to get him out of things because that's the nature of this sort of character. If he doesn't have the screwdriver he'll have the ability to pick locks and all sorts of other things he could have learned and the result will be about the same. The strength of writing saved this as it does in all such dramas.

hookbeak

28-06-2010, 08:21

I don't think the screwdriver is going anywhere - it's now an integral part of the show in the same way the tardis is.

Wooglie

28-06-2010, 09:37

Makes me all the more excited for Gaiman next year.Yeah really excited to see what he does with the Doctor.

TomBarker

28-06-2010, 09:38

I don't think the screwdriver is going anywhere - it's now an integral part of the show in the same way the tardis is.
It's because of all those kids that see the programme and want one for Christmas - if only we could stop children from watching...

mnementh

28-06-2010, 09:39

Just a guess, but I'm hoping Gaiman brings back the DreamLord - just the sort of thing he excels at

gjkendall

28-06-2010, 09:41

Because he wasn't dead.

Tennant nor Ecclestone were dead, they were standing up to do the dramatic arms spread and look up regeneration! :shrug:

AndyWilson

28-06-2010, 09:49

Gaiman's history of screenplays isn't exactly inspiring though:

Neverwhere
An Episode of Babylon 5
Mirrormask
Beowulf

RDJ

28-06-2010, 10:04

TheoGB

28-06-2010, 10:30

Typically regeneration prevents death (and has occasionally brought him back after death). Eccleston and Tennant were both dying and regeneration saved them. Smith was obviously injured by a low-powered dalek blast but wasn't hurt as much as he let on. Either he wasn't dying and therefor wouldn't regenerate, or he was dying but launched himself into the exploding TARDIS before he reached the point of no return where the regeneration would be triggered. Either way, no regeneration.

I think I've just used up all my geek points for the day...

I don't know. It really comes to something when we have debates over whether someone's dead just because they got shot! He got hit but he didn't die, ergo it wasn't a fatal wound, QED. :D

RDJ

28-06-2010, 11:01

I don't know. It really comes to something when we have debates over whether someone's dead just because they got shot! He got hit but he didn't die, ergo it wasn't a fatal wound, QED. :D

Or that. Yes, that's about right and with less blathering.

DuncanSWardle

28-06-2010, 11:08

Typically regeneration prevents death (and has occasionally brought him back after death). Eccleston and Tennant were both dying and regeneration saved them. Smith was obviously injured by a low-powered dalek blast but wasn't hurt as much as he let on. Either he wasn't dying and therefor wouldn't regenerate, or he was dying but launched himself into the exploding TARDIS before he reached the point of no return where the regeneration would be triggered. Either way, no regeneration.

I think I've just used up all my geek points for the day...

If Pond managed to get the Doctor Back by remembering (helped by the seeds he planted) but maybe not knowing his full history could this have had repercussions for the number of regenerations he has left ?

If Pond never knew about some (any) of his previous versions would they still count ?

Guessing that the writers are going to have a lot of freedom with the rewritten universe, but doubt they would be brave enough to remove the Doctors history

thatzit

28-06-2010, 11:09

Loved this series and a great conclusion even if it was straight out of the Bill &Ted school of time travel.

But it never answered the biggest question of the whole series, where are the ducks? ;) :lol:

My take on this is when the Doctor first meets Amy things are already being erased from time. Her parents being missing are the most obvious example the less obvious being the ducks.

hookbeak

28-06-2010, 11:19

If Pond managed to get the Doctor Back by remembering (helped by the seeds he planted) but maybe not knowing his full history could this have had repercussions for the number of regenerations he has left ?

If Pond never knew about some (any) of his previous versions would they still count ?

Guessing that the writers are going to have a lot of freedom with the rewritten universe, but doubt they would be brave enough to remove the Doctors history

i don't think it works like that.

Amy has her parents back and the doctor never existed, she marries rory.

She remembers the doctor

because she remembers him, he did exist all along and everything he did and has done in the past now exists.

evilsly

28-06-2010, 11:38

as soon as she remembers him, rory does too.

also it's clear that everything that's happened, is remembered, with rory in the tardis telling the doctor he can have a night off for saving all of time and space.

Jim989

28-06-2010, 11:57

If it's not already that Fez is going to be an accessory that comes with the doll by Christmas. If it's not then the BBC toy licensees just aren't the money hungry capitalists I thought they were.

But it has to come with a mop, otherwise it would be incomplete.

TomBarker

28-06-2010, 12:32

Mr Blobby

28-06-2010, 12:39

I realise this kind of question is the curse of time travel stories...

So if Rory is the one who releases The Doctor from the Pandorica, but the Doctor has to be released to be able to give him the sonic scredriver in the first place, how does he got out to do that in the first place ;)

d.

The Dr had a gadget he wore on his right wrist which was a time transporter that he had borrowed from River Song. But how did he operate it as he had both hands clamped down in the cube? And it was not on his wrist when he was clamped in the cube.

mr starface

28-06-2010, 12:49

Every time he kept saying "Nothing is ever forgotten" all I could think of was the superb episode of "Robin of Sherwood" when he gets killed on a hill.

TheoGB

28-06-2010, 12:58

So they remember the time cracks too then? Shouldn't that bring them back?

I thought he said that noone is ever forgotten. It's pretty clear we're talking about people/beings not objects and the cracks in time are damage not actual items.

The Dr had a gadget he wore on his right wrist which was a time transporter that he had borrowed from River Song. But how did he operate it as he had both hands clamped down in the cube? And it was not on his wrist when he was clamped in the cube.

He was released by Rory so that he could use that gadget. It is a circular solution (someone earlier mentioned the Grandfather paradox, I believe) but I enjoyed the episode enough that I don't care. :)

TomBarker

28-06-2010, 14:29

I thought he said that noone is ever forgotten. It's pretty clear we're talking about people/beings not objects and the cracks in time are damage not actual items.
You understand, of course, that it was flippant comment?

KennyVader

28-06-2010, 14:34

I thought it was going to be a bit of a Night At The Who-Museum from the opening scenes and just have Amy camping out in the gallery all night but it improved soon enough :lol:

I like how the Dr said "come along Ponds" when both young and old were together ... lots of quaint little touches like that.

I even (mostly) liked the music this episode!

Only downside is it looks like Rory (plastic acting and all) is along for the ride next season. Is he an official Companion now? How many eps do you have to be in to be called a Companion?

TheoGB

28-06-2010, 14:38

You understand, of course, that it was flippant comment?
Ah, good to know. People are debating getting shot and surviving so I'm not really sure what's a real comment any more :D

EDIT: The time travel stuff near the start where the Doctor tells Rory how to rescue him reminded me a bit of that great speech from the Holographic Rimmer to his past alive self in Red Dwarf's Stasis Leak. :D

Jaime

28-06-2010, 19:39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF_R5UJGt-g

Matt_Bro14

28-06-2010, 20:36

Lol. You wouldn't see Tennant DJing his own theme tune.

KennyVader

28-06-2010, 20:39

Damn I was there in person and watched about half the Orbital set but it was all sounding a bit samey so we left before that. Betcha nothing Matt Smith was allowed to touch was actually plugged in :D

0r1n0c0

28-06-2010, 21:03

Ok brilliant ep (and series)...
but... can someone explain (although I expect we'll have to wait until next series) how River remembered the Doctor before Amy (by knowing to give her the spoilers book) but he did not come back because River remembered him, only when Amy did???

AdamBrunt

28-06-2010, 21:38

and even ... how does River know to give the empty book to Amy (who, unless I am missing something completely, she doesn't remember ??) ?

mnementh

28-06-2010, 21:40

It could have been a River from the future

TheoGB

28-06-2010, 21:52

River's probably important to the next series. Maybe we'll find out.

TomBarker

29-06-2010, 07:48

It could have been a River from the future
She wasn't wearing a fez.

marc_angelus

29-06-2010, 08:24

my theory is that River remembered the Doctor first, but since the episode took place in 2010, and River's timeline starts thousands of years later, her memories didn't exist in 2010 even though she was there and so even though her remembering would have brought the Doctor back, it wouldn't have happened for thousands of years but getting Amy to remember in 2010 brought him back then and there. It's also possible that despite having the entirety of space and time at his command, that the Doctor is anchored in a particular time, as throughout the new series at least (don't know about the old ones) his companions have always been from present day Earth.

Xenole

29-06-2010, 11:54

She'll be a Timelord. Haven't had that one this season.

Roberto

29-06-2010, 12:36

She'll be a Timelord. Haven't had that one this season.

I actually have a small feeling she's either Romana or something to do with her

General Zod

29-06-2010, 12:49

Or the Rani

JohnMid1098

29-06-2010, 13:49

TomBarker

29-06-2010, 14:15

Amy is the only one who could bring people back like that, because she's the one who'd lived with the crack all of her life.

River could have had all the time in the world to remember the doctor- she's a time traveler, so she only has to pop back to the wedding day to do what needed to be done. The fact that she did so, also meant that there would be a record of her doing so, which she- in the future- could discover/remember/realize. Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey.
I think it was just a plot hole and we should paper over it.

Did anyone else feel that the 'and you're late for my wedding' line followed by nothing for a second or two was a little dig at RTD and the panto stylings of Tennant's doctor?

Grandmaster

29-06-2010, 16:19

There's a big difference between "remembering" and the "remembering" causing people to spring back to life after being wiped out from time.

River and Amy are both capable of doing the "remembering" because as explained in the Angels two-parter, time-travel gives them a different perspective of the universe.

While River (and indeed the Doctor) can "remember" because she's a time-traveller, only Amy is capable of restoring the Doctor owing to her lifetime of being exposed to the crack in her bedroom wall.

scoobyood

29-06-2010, 16:28

I'm watching Coupling. Season 1. Episode 2

Susan: its always kind of difficult meeting your predecessors isn't it?
Steve: i used to go out with this girl years ago, her ex was like this big muscle-bound god. I was really intimidated til she told me that when he was on his way in so to speak, he used to go....geronimo!

Wooglie

29-06-2010, 16:40

JohnMid1098

30-06-2010, 08:57

I think it was just a plot hole and we should paper over it.

I respectfully disagree, and think that you didn't pay quite enough attention to the established truths of the fiction.

hookbeak

30-06-2010, 09:15

I think it was just a plot hole and we should paper over it.

Did anyone else feel that the 'and you're late for my wedding' line followed by nothing for a second or two was a little dig at RTD and the panto stylings of Tennant's doctor?

It wasn't as plot hole - it was the reason that Amy was so important.

And as Moffat is a huge fan of RTD and his work on Who, i think question 2 is out as well :)

douglasb

04-07-2010, 10:01

Late to the party.

How much does the reset button actually reset? For example, Amy is 'Amy' due to the fact she grew up without parents, had memories/fantasies of the raggedy doctor, everything about the character was defined by her experiences.

In the post-reset world, she has some memories but she also has her parents, etc. (neither of whom seem Scottish BTW so where did she get that accent?). How does that affect who Amy is?

I'm also a little disappointed that Amy/Rory got married, although to be fair, postponing it to some time in the series future would've simply set-up an inevitable 'Amy farewell / return to a mundane life with Rory' scenario. I hope they can use it to have some fun with an Amy / Rory / Doctor triangle, even if it's just the occasional tease. After all, Amy has been dreaming about the Doc all her adolescence and beyond.

Matt_Bro14

04-07-2010, 10:04

Also, isn't the Angels two parter set in this reset world as that is River's future so she's already lived through the Pandorica/resetting of the universe?

TomBarker

04-07-2010, 11:20

I respectfully disagree, and think that you didn't pay quite enough attention to the established truths of the fiction.

What established truths do you believe it was based on?

thescrounger

04-07-2010, 11:34

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/65170,people,entertainment,new-doctor-matt-smith-is-turn-off-for-tennant-fans

hookbeak

04-07-2010, 12:02

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/65170,people,entertainment,new-doctor-matt-smith-is-turn-off-for-tennant-fans

It's amazing how they've managed to twist reality with that story. Ratings this year haven't topped season 4 - but that had "the big regeneration " that really helped - plus it was riding an unsustainable wave of pop culture popularity.

Fact is season 5 has on average had better ratings than season 2 & 3 - plus if you took out episode 1 from season 1 and episode 1 from season 5 and averaged it; it'd beat season 1 as well.

In short, it's as popular as ever.

new

04-07-2010, 13:38

Those figures also do not take into account the very impressive iPlayer figures which have added anything from 3/4m to nearly 2m viewing figures to each episode.

Also the figures for the final (the Big Bang) that they quote do not included time shifts (which usually add around 1m-2m) where all the Tenant ones do.

As I posted in the last Who thread, the episode before this one was the fourth most watched programme of the week for BBC One (beating all episodes of Eastenders) and was just being beaten by three matches in the Fifa World Cup.

What ever figures you use, since its come back Who has had the best non
soap drama figures, and still is. What the BBC need to do is give it back its regular 7pm time slot that nearly all the Tennant ones had to make the overnights look more impressive for the press.

thescrounger

04-07-2010, 14:34

Yes the viewing figures would probably have been much better if it had been on at 7pm.

MK20

04-07-2010, 16:14

I don't know about 7pm but it would have helped a lot if it had just been on at the same time each week. It was a nightmare keeping track of what time it was going to start from one week to the next.

TomBarker

04-07-2010, 16:39

I don't know about 7pm but it would have helped a lot if it had just been on at the same time each week. It was a nightmare keeping track of what time it was going to start from one week to the next.
Maybe if they do the same next year then you could watch whatever replaces that Wipeout thing (I preferred Bob Monkhouse myself).

KRW

04-07-2010, 16:58

Alan b

04-07-2010, 17:57

Aye that was irritating.

Very irritating, I was going to say it was because of the football but they seem to bounce it around time wise every year.

Hood

05-07-2010, 08:05

In the post-reset world, she has some memories but she also has her parents, etc. (neither of whom seem Scottish BTW so where did she get that accent?). How does that affect who Amy is?

They definitely had Scottish accents.

Roswell

05-07-2010, 09:39

They definitely had Scottish accents.

The mum was Scottish and the dad was Welsh.

Hood

05-07-2010, 09:52

The mum was Scottish and the dad was Welsh.

Was he? I just had a quick play on iPlayer and his accent is quite odd. I can hear both Welsh and Scottish twangs depending on what he was saying. :thinking: Regardless, the Mother was as you say Scottish.

JohnMid1098

05-07-2010, 10:58

What established truths do you believe it was based on?

I already stated my understanding previously in the thread, in the post you dismissed in reply. But again, as others have stated- Amy is special. The whole series has been propped up on the basis that Amy is the one with the power to bring people back from the nothingness.

No plot holes, and no cracks to paper over, except the one in her bedroom wall. Or maybe you were just trolling this whole time.

TomBarker

05-07-2010, 11:27

I already stated my understanding previously in the thread, in the post you dismissed in reply. But again, as others have stated- Amy is special. The whole series has been propped up on the basis that Amy is the one with the power to bring people back from the nothingness.

No plot holes, and no cracks to paper over, except the one in her bedroom wall. Or maybe you were just trolling this whole time.
Perhaps you can explain the logic to me where one person having an ability means that nobody else has it? It was estasblished that Amy can do it and that she is special but that her skill was unique - that bit wasn't on my TV.

The plot hole that I referenced was that the catalyst for Amy remembering was receiving the diary from River and considering that her domain seems to be a totally different time period I'm assuming that she made the trip specially which suggests that she rememberered first (without any late-night coaching).

I believe a better way to have scripted that would have been that she was sent back by the real-again doctor to deliver a blank copy of her diary to the wedding (we have, after all, embraced predetermination paradoxes).

TheoGB

05-07-2010, 11:32

RE: Amy's dad, someone on another forum pointed out that the picture on the wall of James Cordon's house, which we lingered over between the two of them talking at one stage, looked like the guy playing Amy's dad. I am inclined to agree. There's probably a good deal more to learn in the next series. Well, I hope there is.

new

05-07-2010, 11:43

The plot hole that I referenced was that the catalyst for Amy remembering was seeing River and considering that her domain seems to be a totally different time period I'm assuming that she made the trip specially which suggests that she remembered first (without any late-night coaching).

I alwwys took it that seeing River did not cause Amy to remember, it was Rivers dairy which cover looked liked the TARDIS. This tied in to the whole something borrowed (Doctor 'borrowed' the TARDIS), something Blue (colour of the TARDIS), something old (TARDIS), something new (regenerated TARDIS/Doctor) talk that the Doctor gave to young Amy when he was traveling back on his time route after the Big Bang.

As for River this was not so clear but assumed it was either down to her being at the center of an exploding TARDIS in the protective time loop for so long, down to her time traveling, or going to be dealt with in the next series where the Moff has said we will find out River and the 'silence will fall'.

TomBarker

05-07-2010, 11:55

I alwwys took it that seeing River did not cause Amy to remember, it was Rivers dairy which cover looked liked the TARDIS. This tied in to the whole something borrowed (Doctor 'borrowed' the TARDIS), something Blue (colour of the TARDIS), something old (TARDIS), something new (regenerated TARDIS/Doctor) talk that the Doctor gave to young Amy when he was traveling back on his time route after the Big Bang.

As for River this was not so clear but assumed it was either down to her being at the center of an exploding TARDIS in the protective time loop for so long, down to her time traveling, or going to be dealt with in the next series where the Moff has said we will find out River and the 'silence will fall'.
Totally agree with you - I think the diary was the bit for Amy and the glimpse of River was the exposition for us the viewer.

I really hope you're right on future storylines, maybe I'll look back at this in a year's time and say 'he's a clever lad that Moffat'.

ajr90

05-07-2010, 16:35

It was estasblished that Amy can do it and that she is special but that her skill was unique - that bit wasn't on my TV.

It was established that Amy has the skill because (and I'm paraphrasing, to an extent, so apologies if I don't get it 100% right) she's spent here whole life having the crack in her wall spewing the entire universe into her brain.

I believe a better way to have scripted that would have been that she was sent back by the real-again doctor to deliver a blank copy of her diary to the wedding (we have, after all, embraced predetermination paradoxes).

The paradoxes were embraced in a collapsing universe, where rules couldn't hold. In the restored universe, such paradoxes tend to be avoided (otherwise every episode would be resolved by using such a trick). I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Moffat scripted it - Amy was seeing things that reminded her of the Doctor, and the diary looking like the Tardis was the final thing which did it. As for how/why River knew to deliver it, I'm trusting Moffat to clear that up in the next series - just like he cleared up the pesky jacket/no jacket thing from Flesh and Stone in the finale.

One final, unrelated, thing - the thread title (and some posters) have been calling this series 'series 5'. My understanding is that this is incorrect, and that Moffat prefers it to be called 'series 1', as in his first series, or 'series 31', as in 31st series of Doctor Who ever made (if I've counted it right).

Jaime

05-07-2010, 16:41

The universe doesn't have to be collapsing for ontological paradoxes. Moffat's used them a couple of times before.

hookbeak

05-07-2010, 16:42

One final, unrelated, thing - the thread title (and some posters) have been calling this series 'series 5'. My understanding is that this is incorrect, and that Moffat prefers it to be called 'series 1', as in his first series, or 'series 31', as in 31st series of Doctor Who ever made (if I've counted it right).

Doesn't really matter what Moffat wants - only "series 5" makes any sense to the general public. Imagine the chaos if it said "series 1" on the new DVDs.

Anyway, I thought the whole series 1 thing was just a misunderstanding on outpost gallifrey (as it was) as the BBC used series 1 as production numbers (as it's a new production team)

ajr90

05-07-2010, 16:51

Doesn't really matter what Moffat wants - only "series 5" makes any sense to the general public. Imagine the chaos if it said "series 1" on the new DVDs.

Anyway, I thought the whole series 1 thing was just a misunderstanding on outpost gallifrey (as it was) as the BBC used series 1 as production numbers (as it's a new production team)

Fair enough - if you're right, then what I heard was the misunderstand on OG propagating across the internet.

Now you mention the DVDs, I'm wondering what they say. I haven't seen them yet myself. Anyone know?

TomBarker

05-07-2010, 17:01

It was established that Amy has the skill because (and I'm paraphrasing, to an extent, so apologies if I don't get it 100% right) she's spent here whole life having the crack in her wall spewing the entire universe into her brain.

A poor use of English - my apologies. Amy has the ability and that was shown to us but it does not follow that nobody else has the ability.

You could wonder whether River Song may have learnt the skill.

ajr90

05-07-2010, 17:20

A poor use of English - my apologies. Amy has the ability and that was shown to us but it does not follow that nobody else has the ability.

No-one else had a crack in their wall. I think the show did more than enough to make it clear, without being far too on-the-nose, that the crack is the reason Amy is special, and the reason why crack-less people can't do what she does.

TomBarker

05-07-2010, 17:21

new

06-07-2010, 06:03

No-one else had a crack in their wall. I think the show did more than enough to make it clear, without being far too on-the-nose, that the crack is the reason Amy is special, and the reason why crack-less people can't do what she does.

Both Churchill (war time bunker) and Craig (kitchen) had cracks on there walls, as well as it appearing in more general places like Starship UK, Starship Byzantium and the Silurians Caves, so it was not just Amy's wall.

It is hinted that Amy is the only one that has had long time exposure to the crack (well we know she has but have seen no evidence that someone else might have; yet) and this makes her unique\special.

I think there are a number of things about Amy that we have yet to find out. There were strong rumors before Amy was even cast that the production crew were looking for a companion for at least two series, as there 'story' will be part of an overall two series story arch for the show, and that the Doctor light epsidoe(s) for the second series will draw on this heavily. This series touched on a number of things about Amy's life that were mentioned but not dealt with. Why is her house 'impossibly large'?, why is she the only one to have long time exposure to the crack yet not be sucked in?, and of course 'why are there no ducks in her villages duck pond?

I think some of these might be very relevant in the next series and could even be linked to who /what blew up the TARDIS, who/what is River and who will she kill and what is the 'silence' (does it mean just no noise, or could "silence will fall' also refer to a person dieing or even getting killed by someone)?

Incidentally the first ever episode that River appeared in and also written by the Moff was "Silence in the Library', coincidence or could that mean so much more? Did that mean quiet in the library or could it mean someone called 'Silence' is in the Library?

I think its best if we leave that up to the hard core Who forums to discus ;)

TheoGB

06-07-2010, 11:17

Actually a heads-up to BTVision subscribers that those episodes along with the rest of the 4th series have just gone up in TV on demand in the last week or so. I'll be watching them again this weekend. :)

I think whether or not others have had continued exposure to the crack there isn't anyone who's also had continuous exposure to the Doctor, which is what makes Amy's remembrance of him important and special.

Here's hoping the rumours are true, anyway.

hookbeak

06-07-2010, 14:27

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/65170,people,entertainment,new-doctor-matt-smith-is-turn-off-for-tennant-fans

As an addition to the nonsense figures in this story, the latest updates show

6.58 million - Final for BBC1 and just overnights for HD
1.30 million - BBC3 Final
0.78 million - Iplayer (first 2 days only)

That's 8.66 million viewers so far. With additional iplayer and BBC HD figures still to come this will very likely top 9 million viewers.

Compare this to other season finale totals :

Season 1 : 7.61m
Season 2 : 8.22m
Season 3 : 8.61m
Season 4 : 10.57m
Season 5 : 8.66m (so far)

I don't think it's any danger yet.

KRW

06-07-2010, 15:02

I thought the crack was following Amy/The Dr around?

ajr90

06-07-2010, 15:51

Both Churchill (war time bunker) and Craig (kitchen) had cracks on there walls, as well as it appearing in more general places like Starship UK, Starship Byzantium and the Silurians Caves, so it was not just Amy's wall.

As KRW says, my interpretation of this was that it was the same crack following (somehow) Amy and the Doctor around. The first time Amy sees it, she says something along the lines of "Doctor, it's the crack from my wall", which I take to support this interpretation.

It is hinted that Amy is the only one that has had long time exposure to the crack (well we know she has but have seen no evidence that someone else might have; yet) and this makes her unique\special.

This I can agree with, in any case.

This series touched on a number of things about Amy's life that were mentioned but not dealt with. Why is her house 'impossibly large'?

I can answer that - that comment by the Doctor was a bit of foreshadowing for the next episode. Her house is 'impossibly large' because she's one person living all alone in it. What happened to the other people living in the house? That is, her parents? The answer is the crack wiped them from history. Very clever, I thought. In any case, I regret to say it's not a hanging thread.

why is she the only one to have long time exposure to the crack yet not be sucked in?

Fair question. Maybe we'll find out next year, but I wouldn't be surprised if we just have to accept it on face value.

and of course 'why are there no ducks in her villages duck pond?

For my money, that's just another sign of the crack removing things from her village. Quite why the ducks would be in her house in the first place, though, I don't know.

new

06-07-2010, 18:00

As KRW says, my interpretation of this was that it was the same crack following (somehow) Amy and the Doctor around. The first time Amy sees it, she says something along the lines of "Doctor, it's the crack from my wall", which I take to support this interpretation..
Not picking an argument or anything just saying how I see things, but with the case of the cracks following Amy, she never set foot in Craig's house so the crack got there with out her being there. I think the ones on Starship UK, War Bunker, and Craigs kitchen were there only as plot/story arch reminder by the production team myself, where as the othes had a much bigger part to play in there respective storys and only listed them as it was mentioned above that 'no-one else had a crack in their wall' which was not the case.

I can answer that - that comment by the Doctor was a bit of foreshadowing for the next episode. Her house is 'impossibly large' because she's one person living all alone in it. What happened to the other people living in the house? That is, her parents? The answer is the crack wiped them from history. Very clever, I thought. In any case, I regret to say it's not a hanging thread..

Next time you watch Eleventh Hour, Big Bang, take a good look at her house from the outside. Then have a look at the way the rooms are positioned and how many flights of stairs and floors there appear to be on the inside compared to what it looks like there should be from the outside. I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but the fact that Amy was living in that house with just her aunt (her aunt was mentioned in the Eleventh Hour and seen in the Big Bang, so I think its safe to assume that young Amy has never lived in that house alone) not her parents makes me think this is not by what the Doctor meant by 'impossibly large', if it was I just think he would say something like 'living in a big house by yourself'.

For my money, that's just another sign of the crack removing things from her village. Quite why the ducks would be in her house in the first place, though, I don't know.

This was just throw in from me as a bit of a tongue in check thing, but seeing what the Moff has done so far would not be surprised if this popped up again in the next series.

thescrounger

06-07-2010, 18:13

You see this 'crack' stuff just didn't interest me. I couldn't care less about it. I hope we get less of the timey wimey nonsense next season.

CLH

06-07-2010, 18:51

I hope we get to see much more of Amy's crack.

Grandmaster

08-07-2010, 19:22

As for River this was not so clear but assumed it was either down to her being at the center of an exploding TARDIS in the protective time loop for so long, down to her time traveling, or going to be dealt with in the next series where the Moff has said we will find out River and the 'silence will fall'.

River "remembers" for the same reason that the Doctor remembers Rory and why Amy remembered the clerics who disappeared into the crack: she's a time traveller and so sees the universe in a different way, as explained in the Angels story.

The404

08-07-2010, 22:46

River "remembers" for the same reason that the Doctor remembers Rory and why Amy remembered the clerics who disappeared into the crack: she's a time traveller and so sees the universe in a different way, as explained in the Angels story.

...and yet Amy forgot Rory. I guess the universe is selective. :lol:

Hood

09-07-2010, 07:51

...and yet Amy forgot Rory. I guess the universe is selective. :lol:

She didn't really though did she? She always seemed to have something in the back of her mind.

Jim989

10-07-2010, 00:02

She didn't really though did she? She always seemed to have something in the back of her mind.

and a tear in her eye.

new

12-07-2010, 05:50

Final Rateings Update:
Final figures are now available for the BBC HD showing of Doctor Who: The Big Bang and give the episode an official rating on the channel of 0.58 million viewers. This, along with the previously reported figure of 6.12 million viewers on BBC One, gives the episode a total rating of 6.7 million viewers. Full details for the week are still not available, but it is likely this will make Doctor Who the 10th most watched programme of the week.

Final figures for the whole series show that, despite recent press speculation, Doctor Who is still achieving remarkable ratings for the BBC and remains one of its most successful products. Once consolidated figures are published then the five series of the show, shown since the return in 2005, have all achieved remarkably similar average ratings of around 8 million viewers. Matt Smith’s first series just out-rates David Tennant’s first two series but comes behind Tennant’s last series. The variable earlier start times given to Series 31 compared to recent series appear to have resulted in more of the audience recording the show for later viewing, meaning lower overnights, but balanced when final consolidated figures are published

In terms of Chart position, once HD figures are included, Doctor Who has finished in the weekly top twenty throughout the series, with seven episodes finishing in the top ten. The high was 3rd place for The Eleventh Hour and the low was 20th for The Lodger, shown against World Cup football. The average chart placing was 12th, which again is higher that achieved by three of the previous four series.

One of the big successes of the recent series has been the take up on iPlayer. This year was the first time the whole series has been available during its run. Over 2 million have now accessed The Eleventh Hour and it has become by far the highest accessed programme in the BBC iPlayer history. The iPlayer simply measures those who have accessed the programme and no data is available to covert this figure to ratings in the conventional sense. However the figure does give an indication of how popular the programme is with the audience.