Lost S6 E7 - Dr Linus [Archive] - Forums @ The Digital Fix

scoobyood

10-03-2010, 14:11

Excellent episode I thought. It wasn't a rehash of Alex's death, it was why Ben killed Jacob, him owning up for it and ultimately being forgiven. Ben is officially a frickin good guy now. That's important.

Stuff/things we found out..

- It's Jacob's touch is the reason why people like Michael can't kill themselves. All those little impossible death escapes explained then.. plus Hurley's luck on the rope bridge etc.
- The "candidates" are indeed Jacobs replacements.
- Miles got Nicky and Paulo's diamonds
- Alex is still hot.. :luv:
- As expected, Widmore is the one on the way to the island.. and he's brought the military.

.......... What am I forgetting?

Also I loved this bit.

Jack: Where did you come from
Richard: You wouldn't believe me if I told you.
Jack: Try me.
Richard: Not yet ..... <-That's to us :lol:

Richie

10-03-2010, 15:31

This is a quietly powerful episode which moved me to tears. Outstanding.

stupidboyjj

10-03-2010, 16:02

Very touching. Liked the Ben/Roger relationship in the flashsideways, Roger cares deeply for Ben, another mention of Dharma too in the sideways bits.

paradigm

10-03-2010, 16:27

A good episode, hopefully details of the chat between Richard and Jack will transpire in ep 8. It's now seeming more and more clear to me that the jacob = good guy and NotLocke = bad guy may not be as cut and dry as it seems.

I saw relavance at the start of the episode when Dr Linus was talking about Napoleon on Elba still with the title of Emperor but with no power.

statto

10-03-2010, 16:53

Noticed the same parallel with Elba, but I see MiB as the Napoleon character.

PaulieC79

10-03-2010, 18:24

KennyVader

10-03-2010, 18:51

We also got reminded that Arzt was a miserable bugger, whichever timeline he was in :D

And learnt that in Timeline 2, that Ben and Roger still went to the island but left it at some point for some reason.

And that Alex is a complete teacher's pet suck-up spod! :p

And that the reporter from Die Hard looks o-l-d now :(

Great music in this ep. I love Ben's theme, plus we got the happy music when they reunited with Hurley and Jack on the beach.

Jaime

10-03-2010, 19:01

Great episode. Season seems to be starting to hit the stride. I'm still not sold on the off-island stuff, but the Ben/Arzt interactions made up for it.

It's now seeming more and more clear to me that the jacob = good guy and NotLocke = bad guy may not be as cut and dry as it seems.

Really? Locke just massacred a bunch of people.

Great music in this ep. I love Ben's theme, plus we got the happy music when they reunited with Hurley and Jack on the beach.

Loved the piece where Hurley began reluctantly following Jack.

Pudding

10-03-2010, 19:05

We all knew who was on the sub didn't we before it showed us!

I thought it was going to be Christopher Lloyd in Klingon makeup. FIRE!!!

Boink!

10-03-2010, 19:38

I wonder if John McClane turns up after the principle!
You mean Walter Peck, don't you? :D
his face was bugging me as I knew I'd seen him before, but couldn't place it

robzinski

10-03-2010, 19:39

Great episode. Ben continues to be a great character and I love his redemption in this episode to good guy. Richard answers as well, I actually though for a minute we were going to get another "can't tell you" sequence. We all knew who was on the sub didn't we before it showed us!

Well, Alan Dale's name was in the credits at the start, and he's not usually. I hate it when shows do that.

The music at the end was the same as used when the raft was leaving at the end of season one, wasn't it?

Interesting that they've actually referenced the island in the other timeline now. With the Roger/Ben conversation.

statto

10-03-2010, 20:07

Interesting that they've actually referenced the island in the other timeline now. With the Roger/Ben conversation.

They've referenced an island. I don't think we can assume it's the island unless the conversation was going to go:

Roger: I sometimes wonder what would have happened if we'd stayed on the island.
Ben: We'd have drowned when the island sank to the ocean floor dad. :|

KennyVader

10-03-2010, 20:11

The music at the end was the same as used when the raft was leaving at the end of season one, wasn't it?

I think it's been used a couple of times for similar happy+hopeful beach type scenes.

Interesting that they've actually referenced the island in the other timeline now. With the Roger/Ben conversation.

Yep I think this is massively significant. It helps to confirm that the island sinking to the bottom of the ocean occurred in recent times.

I bet Widmore wishes he'd gone with the submarine plan rather than the freighter plan in the first place :D

GAmbrose

10-03-2010, 20:29

At the end of Season 5, between Sayid being shot by Roger Linus and the bomb going off/not going off (both?) would there have been time for Roger and little Ben to get off the Island on the Dharma sub?

I can't remember if little Ben had been returned to Dharmaville after his trip to the temple, but they were evacuating at the time. Is it possible that they got off the Island just before it sunk and then they never really knew what happened to it after that (Because there was obviously no way back)

Anyway - Fantastic episode. I thought it was one of the best this season.

MetalGearAl

10-03-2010, 20:42

Loved the dynamite scene between Jack and Richard, fantastic stuff. Though equally annoying with Richard's evasive behaviour!

Martin Ball

10-03-2010, 20:47

Nice episode. Didn't move much forward but it was good seeing Ben owning up and seeking forgiveness and getting it. Although I wonder whether he will turn again at the first opportunity or whether he really is a good guy now.

So Richard came on the Black Rock? - "All the time I've been on the island I haven't been back"
Alex is still a hottie
Characters walk for miles into the forest and back again yet they still "have no time" to actually explain anything
Widmore has finally found his way back to the island

Still a very good and enjoyable episode despite not moving things forward that much.

scoobyood

10-03-2010, 21:18

Yep I think this is massively significant. It helps to confirm that the island sinking to the bottom of the ocean occurred in recent times.

Not really. All it confirms is that Ben and his Dad went to, and left, the island. That could have been any time after the incident.

Which is interesting and significant because if we presume that little Ben was still saved in the spring water and he's not evil (or different) in the real life of the alternate time-line.. then what does that mean about those others who were corrupted after going in that spring? Will they be normal again when they leave? Michael was when he left... also Ben let go of that corruption while still on the island... after Jacob had been killed :suspect:

Also the "can't kill yourself" if you've been touched by Jacob, also explains how Ben showed up exactly the right time to save John.. only to kill him himself. It's nuts how they've woven this story up like that.

stupidboyjj

10-03-2010, 22:18

GAmbrose

10-03-2010, 22:22

You are right though, thinking about it.

scoobyood

10-03-2010, 22:31

Okay but where is the cut off if the Losties weren't in the past of the alt-timeline? I thought what happened to people before the nukecident.. still applies. Otherwise there is a loop of events. There must be a start to the split, what is that if it's not the incident?

urghh.. this is too confusing.

Richie

10-03-2010, 22:34

I'm sure all will become as clear as mud!

Ben [Little Funk]

10-03-2010, 23:01

So Richard came on the Black Rock? - "All the time I've been on the island I haven't been back"

That's interesting i missed that. If so, that wasn't all that long ago (20 odd years or so) that the Black Rock came to the island was it? How did he end up on it, Jacob? was he touched years before in a normal life?

scoobyood

10-03-2010, 23:13

;8997184']That's interesting i missed that. If so, that wasn't all that long ago (20 odd years or so) that the Black Rock came to the island was it? How did he end up on it, Jacob? was he touched years before in a normal life?

It's a slave ship, so it's been there a bit longer than 20 years.

According to an auctioneer selling the ship's first mate's journal, the Black Rock set sail from Portsmouth, England on March 22, 1845, purportedly on a trading mission to the Kingdom of Siam (now known as Thailand). The ship was believed to have been lost at sea. Seven years later, the journal was discovered among the artifacts of pirates on Île Sainte-Marie, an island off the coast of Madagascar.

We see the ship off shore in the last episode of season 5, Jacob and MIB were on the beach talking about the people on it.. and the cycle repeating etc.

But we don't have long to wait to find out ;)

SithLordSi

11-03-2010, 01:51

The music at the end was the same as used when the raft was leaving at the end of season one, wasn't it?
I think it's been used a couple of times for similar happy+hopeful beach type scenes.
Nope. I think you might be thinking of these two themes:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/s8Ur_xEQjAo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/s8Ur_xEQjAo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/s5ETlShWQ_g&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/s5ETlShWQ_g&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

What we heard in this episode were these two themes, primarily:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WetJOa4hTrQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WetJOa4hTrQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/F0NJsW3y02s&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/F0NJsW3y02s&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

GAmbrose

11-03-2010, 07:14

;8997184']That's interesting i missed that. If so, that wasn't all that long ago (20 odd years or so) that the Black Rock came to the island was it? How did he end up on it, Jacob? was he touched years before in a normal life?

It went missing sometime after 1845 and before 1881 according to http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Rock.

smst

11-03-2010, 08:20

Great stuff this week. Off-Island, as well as the reference to Elba and Locke's talk of Ben assuming leadership, I liked the fact that Ben was keeping his father alive with oxygen bottles -- when he changed the bottle and released the gas, I couldn't help but think of how he'd released the gas on the Island to kill his father (and everyone else).

At the end of Season 5, between Sayid being shot by Roger Linus and the bomb going off/not going off (both?) would there have been time for Roger and little Ben to get off the Island on the Dharma sub?
While I tend towards the thought that the timeline split occurs when the bomb goes off, we don't know how long it took for the Island to sink -- and if Ben got off, then perhaps so did Richard, Eloise and Charles.

(This next quote was about the Jacob/Locke good/bad question)Really? Locke just massacred a bunch of people.
And Jacob brought Oceanic 815 to the Island to get at a handful of Candidates, killing about 250 people in the crash.

Jungle Ted

11-03-2010, 08:39

smst

11-03-2010, 08:50

I was interested to discover that whatsisname, the pilot, should have been piloting Oceanic 815 but overslept and his conversation with Ben about how things could have been different - yep, he would have been killed by smokie.
My geeky nature compels me to say that we found that out near the start of season 4 when we had the flashbacks for the key freighter folk: Lapidus saw the footage on the news of the sunken plane, realised the pilot wasn't correct (a wedding ring discrepancy I think) and mentioned then that he should have been flying that plane. :dork:

Ben [Little Funk]

11-03-2010, 09:33

It's a slave ship, so it's been there a bit longer than 20 years.

We see the ship off shore in the last episode of season 5, Jacob and MIB were on the beach talking about the people on it.. and the cycle repeating etc.

But we don't have long to wait to find out ;)

Cheers for that. Far too much to remember in Lost sometimes :lol:

Delta Kneebone

11-03-2010, 09:36

I presume that in the alternate timeline, Ben was never actually shot by Sayid as 815 never crashed on the island hence no time travelling etc. Also, the alt-Roger doesn't seem to be as much of a git as the normal Roger so perhaps Ben never felt alienated whilst in Dharmaville and didn't bother joining the Others, hence never lost his innocence (whatever that meant).

Okay but where is the cut off if the Losties weren't in the past of the alt-timeline? I thought what happened to people before the nukecident.. still applies. Otherwise there is a loop of events. There must be a start to the split, what is that if it's not the incident?

The theory is that the split came at the incident, so what would be interesting would be for Ben's father to meet Sayid in the alt timeline. It was said that if Ben was "templed" he wouldn't remember anything leading up to him being shot so he wouldn't recognise any of the Losties. His father on the other hand would recognise Sayid as the man who shot his son - but of course Sayid wouldn't recognise him because in the alt Sayid didn't shoot him.

Captain_Howdy666

11-03-2010, 10:57

KennyVader

11-03-2010, 11:03

You would think an island/Jacob that can prevent people blowing themselves up / shooting themselves / hanging themselves could make a poxy alarm clock go off on time, but I guess not.

stupidboyjj

11-03-2010, 11:12

Maybe Jacob made the alarm clock go off late thereby saving Lapidus's life by NOT being the pilot on 815? Eh?

GAmbrose

11-03-2010, 12:25

He wasn't supposed to be there, fine...but why was it Smokie who killed the pilot though?

He was referred to as the Security System in previous seasons, was he perhaps a slave doing 'The Islands' bidding?

scoobyood

11-03-2010, 13:27

That's the question. If smokie was trapped on the island and doing Jacobs bidding before Jacob was killed.... what were MIB's actions and what were Jacobs. I think eckos death is real important for that. He was the only one to spot that the ghost of his Brother was some one else... and he was immediately killed for it.

GAmbrose

11-03-2010, 13:50

That is why when smokie-Locke said to Richard "Nice to see you out of those chains" I thought he was referring to himself being free at last, rather than to Richard.

Jaime

11-03-2010, 16:27

(This next quote was about the Jacob/Locke good/bad question)
And Jacob brought Oceanic 815 to the Island to get at a handful of Candidates, killing about 250 people in the crash.

There's no way you can logically make a case for Jacob being responsible for the crash of 815.

Just because he played a part in people's lives upto that point, supposedly leading them to the island, doesn't mean he physically brought them there in any way. The lighthouse is a good example - he tells Hurley that the lighthouse will lead someone to the island (probably Widmore), but when it's smashed he comment on how they'll find another way. Jacob sets things up and allows events to take their own course, but we haven't seen anything yet that suggests he has the kind of power to put people on planes and then tear them from the sky.

jester

11-03-2010, 17:00

I disagree, he probably had an effect on Desmond (as already hinted at) and caused the crash.

MetalGearAl

11-03-2010, 17:08

jester

11-03-2010, 17:15

Same here, if he arrived as a slave though would he have been of african origin? (ie. black)

He always looked a bit "eastern" though to me indication that he might be Egyptian?

Richard Alpert (RA) ?

scoobyood

11-03-2010, 17:18

There's no way you can logically make a case for Jacob being responsible for the crash of 815.

Just because he played a part in people's lives upto that point, supposedly leading them to the island, doesn't mean he physically brought them there in any way. The lighthouse is a good example - he tells Hurley that the lighthouse will lead someone to the island (probably Widmore), but when it's smashed he comment on how they'll find another way. Jacob sets things up and allows events to take their own course, but we haven't seen anything yet that suggests he has the kind of power to put people on planes and then tear them from the sky.

Jacob lied about Widmore needing the lighthouse, he just needed to show Jack the lighthouse (so he could smash it and then look out to sea all forlorn) and get him and Hurley away from the Temple.

Jacob was present at the death of Nadia. He stopped Sayid and let Nadia walk in front a bus... clearly he wanted Sayid for some purpose, so he very much let her die when he could have saved her.

Though... if he was time travelling, then (like Desmond with Charlie) he could have saved her once but fate was going to course correct and take her out eventually. :thinking: Maybe he needs to fix events himself, so this whole show is him jumping around in time trying to massage people and events into the right combination.... :nuts:

Same here, if he arrived as a slave though would he have been of african origin? (ie. black)

He always looked a bit "eastern" though to me indication that he might be Egyptian?

Richard Alpert (RA) ?

The Black Rock's journal was found with a load of Pirate stuff that was dumped on an island. I think Richard is one of a few Spanish pirates who captured the ship, probably trying to liberate the slaves... and something probably went wrong, so he ended up chained with slaves.. then the ship got lost, the compass goes spinning and it's gets caught in a storm (tempest ;) ). There'll be glaring parallels with the 815 crash or something.

GAmbrose

11-03-2010, 17:25

Am I missing something, I thought we had all been assuming that Richard arrived on the Black Rock for quite some time now... and I thought the reference to the chains was about Richard being chained up on the boat.

Yeah I've though Richard came on The Black Rock for a while, as some sort of slave, in season 4 maybe and I'm sure the writers wanted you to presume that when Smokie-Locke said that to Richard, that he meant the slave-chains...but what if he meant himself?

jester

11-03-2010, 17:25

I am going to call it...

Jacob is as bad as MiB

:D

Jaime

11-03-2010, 17:40

Jacob lied about Widmore needing the lighthouse, he just needed to show Jack the lighthouse (so he could smash it and then look out to sea all forlorn) and get him and Hurley away from the Temple.

Jacob was present at the death of Nadia. He stopped Sayid and let Nadia walk in front a bus... clearly he wanted Sayid for some purpose, so he very much let her die when he could have saved her.

Though... if he was time travelling, then (like Desmond with Charlie) he could have saved her once but fate was going to course correct and take her out eventually. :thinking: Maybe he needs to fix events himself, so this whole show is him jumping around in time trying to massage people and events into the right combination.... :nuts:

Saving Sayid isn't the same as crashing a plane though. We can't look at everything in the show and say it was the work of Jacob because he clearly hasn't shown the omniscience needed to be in control of everything. If he was, there'd be no need for any of the other characters.

Neil Smalley

11-03-2010, 17:41

Hmm, Jacob=Forces of order and Mib=Forces of Chaos. Aka Vorlons and Shadows..

jester

11-03-2010, 17:57

Reverend Scapegoat

11-03-2010, 18:05

Hmm, Jacob=Forces of order and Mib=Forces of Chaos. Aka Vorlons and Shadows..

Could be that Jacob is the evil one, and MIB started out as a security system intended to keep Jacob captive... But decided he wanted freedom for himself, so needs to kill Jacob to relieve himself of that duty and allow him to leave?

Richie

11-03-2010, 18:17

The Black Rock's journal was found with a load of Pirate stuff that was dumped on an island. I think Richard is one of a few Spanish pirates who captured the ship, probably trying to liberate the slaves... and something probably went wrong, so he ended up chained with slaves.. then the ship got lost, the compass goes spinning and it's gets caught in a storm (tempest ;) ). There'll be glaring parallels with the 815 crash or something.
I'd much prefer the shade of grey if Richard was one of the crew of the ship transporting the slaves who then got enslaved himself by a mutiny onboard or something, that would be far more interesting. I agree about The Tempest though! ;)

scoobyood

11-03-2010, 18:18

You should be a script writer :D

Darlton visit this forum and steal my ideas... they've been at it for years :suspect:

Moogan

11-03-2010, 20:02

Maybe the Black Rock has something to do with the East India Company Ben was testing Alex about?

Alastair

11-03-2010, 21:21

Maybe the Black Rock has something to do with the East India Company Ben was testing Alex about?

I thought that when I saw the picture of the ship in the book.

Shingster

11-03-2010, 22:08

There's no maybe about it, they won't show you a drawing of a ship in the same episode as the return of The Black Rock as a point of interest on the island without reason.

Moogan

11-03-2010, 23:32

I think I finally know who Richard is. The East India Company was in the last 2 Pirates of the Caribbean movies and at the end of the 3rd one a map is discovered to the fountain of youth. Yes ...Richard Alpert is Captain Jack Sparrow :eek:

DrVenkman

11-03-2010, 23:35

Richard could easily be a slave, it wasn't exclusively Black Africans that were traded as Slaves. In fact I gather that by the way he was looking at the chains he was indeed a slave at one point.

I will say that as much as I liked the main story this week, I think Nestor Carbonell and Matthew Fox were great with their limited screentime. Fox is always good when he indulges in Jack's crazy pill-popping side.

smst

12-03-2010, 08:38

There's no way you can logically make a case for Jacob being responsible for the crash of 815.

Just because he played a part in people's lives upto that point, supposedly leading them to the island, doesn't mean he physically brought them there in any way. The lighthouse is a good example - he tells Hurley that the lighthouse will lead someone to the island (probably Widmore), but when it's smashed he comment on how they'll find another way. Jacob sets things up and allows events to take their own course, but we haven't seen anything yet that suggests he has the kind of power to put people on planes and then tear them from the sky.

Saying he puts people on a path is an easy out though. Does he just know that if he pushes here, somebody will end up over there, and so he's ultimately using some sort of destiny-related mechanism? I find his pushes more interesting if I imagine that he can foresee, through all of the complex and chaotic interactions that will occur over the years, how a single path change will affect everything else.

Yes, it requires omniscience. There has been an implication before that he's waiting for somebody to do something that hasn't been predicted (it was hinted at in his conversation with his nemesis at the end of season 5, and again when Miles said that Jacob was hoping he was wrong about Ben), which further implies that in the absence of such a person he can see everything that's going to happen.

Ergo, in my opinion, when he pushed people in certain directions he ultimately knew they'd end up Oceanic 815 and that Desmond wouldn't press the button. He didn't directly cause those things to happen, but he could see that they must happen if a few people's lives were changed just so, and he let the crash happen for his own ends. He also knew that Ben would kill him, but hoped that he wouldn't.

Fundamentally, I think Jacob is omniscient and waiting for somebody who will surprise him. Somebody who has free will, and will forge a path Jacob hasn't predicted. I think that's who the candidates are: people who may be able to make their own choices (and as such are qualified to protect the Island)... maybe if one can make a choice which destiny (the theme for this season according to the posters!) has not ordained, they can be taught how to step outside of time and influence things.

DrVenkman

12-03-2010, 09:49

Jacob is curious because he rarely DIRECTLY interferes. He seems to be able to see all the outcomes of your life regardless of what choices you make, and so places certain obstacles in the way to make you choose what he wants you to choose. If we're going with the idea that the Losties essentially have no free will (Which is boring thematically and I'm kinda annoyed that the show went that route) then Jacob is some kind of manipulative God who won't tell you what to do, but makes it look like you have a choice.

Again I just need to reiterate that the idea that even right now, the survivors have never made a choice that wasn't pre ordained is so frustrating, and a largely terrible plot device. It's going to take some of the shine watching earlier Seasons that's for sure.

mamboboy

12-03-2010, 11:32

Brilliant episode. It's sure gonna suck to see this show come to an end!

My personal favourite scene was toward the end when Hurley and co return to the beach, and we have shots of them all greeting each other, and then it cuts to Linus at the end looking dishevelled and all alone - all the things he's tried to do for the 'good' of the island, all for some sense of power but now he's right at the bottom of the pecking order. Watch back when 'The Others' were in control and you'd have never assumed that would/could happen :)

I hope Michael Emerson doesn't fade into mediocrity after Lost. The ranges he's shown throughout all seasons has been nothing short of brilliant - especially when you compare him to the somebody like Evangeline Lilly, who's been pretty much the same right from the start...

DrVenkman

12-03-2010, 14:04

Also if you notice Richard is standing alone as well. There's a brief shot that shows them both on the 'outside'.

As for Evangeline Lilly, I can't help but think she's there just because the show wanted to keep that insipid love triangle going (Which should've died the moment Sawyer got with Juliet). I think she's fine though, but the writers really don't know what to do with her. It's the same with Jack, but at least he has a central part to play in the plot.

KennyVader

12-03-2010, 14:44

all the things he's tried to do for the 'good' of the island, all for some sense of power but now he's right at the bottom of the pecking order. Watch back when 'The Others' were in control and you'd have never assumed that would/could happen :)

True but he has been offered the role of Island Caretaker by FLocke, that could go both ways. He could twist again and be unable to resist the offer and go meet FLocke and co in order to take the offer up. Or it could be that he tells Ilana about it and they all head over to the other island to attack/recapture FLocke before he can leave, which would be Ben betraying the MiB in a way.

I hope Michael Emerson doesn't fade into mediocrity after Lost. The ranges he's shown throughout all seasons has been nothing short of brilliant - especially when you compare him to the somebody like Evangeline Lilly, who's been pretty much the same right from the start...

Agreed. I hope we see Terry O'Quinn and Josh Holloway in more stuff as well. Hope they don't sit back and just do fan conventions and spinoffs based mostly on their Lost roles for the rest of their days, in a sort of "Patrick McGoohan/Prisoner" or "most of the cast of Star Trek" kind of way. The rest of them I'm not too fussed about.

scoobyood

12-03-2010, 14:50

Kate's got some part left to play. She's with locke now, still has Clare to save and Jacob already scratched her name off.... the audio podcast alludes to something going on with that.

I have to say I like Kate, she does what she wants and is in no way a typical female character.

I thought it was clear the love triangle was over. She moved in with jack that fizzled out and when she tried it on with sawyer.. and he told her to get lost.

KennyVader

12-03-2010, 14:54

I wonder if Jorge Garcia is going to go on a massive diet once it's all filmed or is he going to stay Hurley for life :D

jester

12-03-2010, 18:13

scoobyood

12-03-2010, 18:50

Hang on...

If someone is chosen as a candidate can we assume that they will not have a sideways flash story as they are looking after the island?

How can someone look after the island if it is underwater?

My head hurts again. :cry:

Sideways=Alternate ... it doesn't mean that it's the future of the characters. We are watching their past... as if the plane crash never happened.

But it's not that simple, other things are different, Hurley is lucky rather unlucky and Jack's father's body went missing missing mid-flight. etc etc.. loads of little things.

So it's an 'alternate' alternate reality....as far as we know anyway.

I hope that clears everything up for you :lol:

Walrus Man

12-03-2010, 21:44

Another cracking episode tonight, more great facial expressions from Michael Emerson. Just a shame I spent the whole episode waiting for Jim Robinson to turn up after seeing his name in the credits.

KennyVader

12-03-2010, 23:18

They should make available a carefully positioned/timed alternate subtitle set that puts a couple of black bars or even a couple of rows of "......." over the spoiler opening credits, for those that don't want to see them.

Richie

12-03-2010, 23:59

That's all well and good but they have to be displayed for legal and contractual reasons as daft as that may be. It's easy enough to cover your view with your hands if you're that precious about it! This is one show where they should've only had cast credits at the end though.

camaj

13-03-2010, 02:10

Great episode, some people seem to be over thinking the Napolean thing. I took it as a metaphor for Ben on the island. He has now lost his power and it a completely different man.

I saw Alex's name on the credits but didn't twig for some reason. We knew Widmore would be on his way to the island, it's almost inevitable. I don't think he's bought the military though, only seemed to be one other guy there, maybe just a few bodyguards and sailors.

Are people taking Richards words literally? I think when he said "Jacob touched me" I don't think anyone he touches becomes immortal, but he does have that power seemingly. That said, why could Jack kill Richard? Can you live forever as long as no one else kills you?

We were supposed to see Emily Mathis, who played Ben's mum in the episode where he was born. Wonder if that'll still happen.

camaj

13-03-2010, 02:15

dupe post

scoobyood

13-03-2010, 04:18

Are people taking Richards words literally? I think when he said "Jacob touched me" I don't think anyone he touches becomes immortal, but he does have that power seemingly. That said, why could Jack kill Richard? Can you live forever as long as no one else kills you?

Jacob has been around and physically touched people to heal them or choose them or whatever. Like Locke after he fell from the window. So yes, I think it's his "power" for want of a better word. He dishes it out by touching people. And he got it because, even though he was a man once, extended exposure to the island has had an effect on him, like it has for MIB (turns to smokie), Hurley (sees dead people), Miles (reads dead brains) etc..

Jack could kill Richard the same as Ben could Kill Jacob.. people "touched by Jacob" ... can't kill themselves because they can't change their fate. They need some one else to step in a throw a pebble in the other person's stream so they jump off Jacob's railway tracks of fate.

I have a theory about what it is that Jacob offers or gives or exudes or whatever. People touched by him essentially get super lucky, he locks people to an event in the future, so they become slaves to that event, and nothing they do can get them out of it. Like Charlie and his death. It's the reverse of the "final destination" 'death chasing you' thing. instead of an event that should have happened in the past (which the universe corrects itself for) it's one in the future.
Locke couldn't kill himself, he was about to but Ben happened to arrive at the exact time to save him. Michael couldn't kill himself... it was miraculously full of blanks. So this "can't kill yourself" thing is not even new. It could even expand to Hurley's luck on the rope bridge, Desmond surviving the explosion in the hatch and go right back to them not dying in the plane crash in the first place. Eg. Jack ended up waking in the jungle because he was thrown clear in the crash.

It's either that or Jacob can dish out luck. The numbers brought luck to let Hurley win the lottery but they also have a luck void that follows them.. to maintain balance. That's why people can't kill themselves, Jacob needs them to do his bidding and... Jacob is a Luckdragon! :D He even kind of looks like one... :suspect:

Delta Kneebone

13-03-2010, 08:58

Locke couldn't kill himself, he was about to but Ben happened to arrive at the exact time to save him. Michael couldn't kill himself... it was miraculously full of blanks. So this "can't kill yourself" thing is not even new. It could even expand to Hurley's luck on the rope bridge, Desmond surviving the explosion in the hatch and go right back to them not dying in the plane crash in the first place.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to include the plane crash in the "can't kill yourself" theory. Unless they were on the plane as some sort of mass suicide pact the plane crash wasn't an attempt to kill themselves.

chillster76

13-03-2010, 09:15

A few questions answered in the audio podcast:
The cave is actually Jacob's.
Kate's name is crossed out in the cave because Jacob is trying to mis-direct MiB, that's why it's not crossed out in the lighthouse and I guess also explains Lockeness's confusion on seeing Kate outside the temple.
The person that Jacob talks of coming to the island is indeed Widmore, so that indicates he's on Jacob's side and opens up a whole possible avenue of answers.
Also, they said that the Darma drops may not be explained in the show, but would be explained elsewhere. Perhaps they just ran out of time, but in any case that seems to contradict what they said about not giving answers to remaining questions once the show is over. Or perhaps even hints that there might be BSG style TV movies after the show is over?

Richie

13-03-2010, 09:49

Jacob is a Luckdragon! :D He even kind of looks like one... :suspect:It's uncanny! :D
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt352/Richiedvd/falkor.jpghttp://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt352/Richiedvd/LOSTs-Jacob.jpg

Help

13-03-2010, 10:14

Episode directed by Mario van Peebles, too.

camaj

13-03-2010, 11:54

Yes I spotted that too! Weird eh?

WeaselFierce

13-03-2010, 12:11

Brain hurts after reading through all the ideas here. :?:

Great to have Ben back in the limelight this episode though. Very emotional stuff and, I have to say, I was never entirely sure which way things were going to go.

scoobyood

13-03-2010, 13:16

I think it's a bit of a stretch to include the plane crash in the "can't kill yourself" theory. Unless they were on the plane as some sort of mass suicide pact the plane crash wasn't an attempt to kill themselves.

I think the effects must multiply when more of them get together (which is also why they ALL had to be on that second plane). Each of the candidates has a 'luck bubble' of death aversion around them.. put them all together and the universe will do anything to keep them alive because there is so much riding on their collective fate. Hence surviving a plane crash. The universe was working against Charlie in the same way.. it's just working for the candidates inexact opposite way.

Delta Kneebone

13-03-2010, 16:39

I think the effects must multiply when more of them get together (which is also why they ALL had to be on that second plane). Each of the candidates has a 'luck bubble' of death aversion around them.. put them all together and the universe will do anything to keep them alive because there is so much riding on their collective fate. Hence surviving a plane crash. The universe was working against Charlie in the same way.. it's just working for the candidates inexact opposite way.

Whether that's right or wrong it still has nothing to do with the "can't kill yourself" theory.

scoobyood

13-03-2010, 16:59

Whether that's right or wrong it still has nothing to do with the "can't kill yourself" theory.

Yes it does. It's easier to "course correct" or "head off at the pass" one person's actions than it is for multiple people. People are the variable remember, if multiple variables try and mess with one person's fate then fate can't keep up... that was what the end of the last season was about with the bomb. If you try to kill yourself there's still only one variable so fate/universe/'space time continuum'/whatever is able to correct it.
Also Desmond stopped Charlie's death over and over.. Charlie wasn't trying to kill himself, but he was at the mercy of his own fate.. he was locked to an event. It took a third party to throw a spanner in the works.

Delta Kneebone

13-03-2010, 19:38

scoobyood

13-03-2010, 20:07

No amount of waffle alters the fact that the Losties were not trying to kill themselves when the plane crashed. Therefore the fact that they survived has nothing to do with whether or not they are physically able to do so.

Well jeez.. some one kill you cat today or something. :razz: If you don't understand or care to read what I wrote (which, while rambly in nature, does actually make sense) why ask in the first place?

It could even expand to Hurley's luck on the rope bridge, Desmond surviving the explosion in the hatch and go right back to them not dying in the plane crash in the first place. Eg. Jack ended up waking in the jungle because he was thrown clear in the crash.

I mentioned it, quite deliberately at the end of everything else in with a few examples of other places this could apply. Also note that "can't kill yourself" is in quotation marks because.. I am regarding it as not exactly that, but the result of something else.

If I am to take everything you've said as the letter of the law then I'd ask why you choose to pick out that sentence rather than where I called Jacob a frickin Luckdragon :cuckoo: It's just a TV show and I'm throwing some ideas out, if you don't want to add to them.. ignore them :thumbs:

Delta Kneebone

13-03-2010, 20:13

Like I said "No amount of waffle" etc..............

smst

14-03-2010, 06:18

Also, they said that the Darma drops may not be explained in the show, but would be explained elsewhere. Perhaps they just ran out of time, but in any case that seems to contradict what they said about not giving answers to remaining questions once the show is over. Or perhaps even hints that there might be BSG style TV movies after the show is over?
Because they've previously said that it will all be over for them when the show ends, I took this to mean that any explanation would be indirect, ie they'd show us something else from which we can infer the explanation for the drops, rather than explicitly telling us about the drops themselves. I'd be extremely surprised if there were any more hours (TV or film) of Lost after the finale.

Taq

14-03-2010, 07:41

I think most people would have been happy if they'd cut 5 mins out of a Kate episode and put in a bit of exposition about how Dharma was still active, and sending out food drops to the button pushers to help prevent the end of the world. They had 3 years to fit it in after all!

Martin Ball

14-03-2010, 10:07

Indeed, when you think of some of the padding in previous seasons it does seem mad that now there are not enough episodes left to explain / finish some of the plots they put in place.

chillster76

14-03-2010, 10:14

I took this to mean that any explanation would be indirect, ie they'd show us something else from which we can infer the explanation for the drops

Ah yes, you're probably right.

camaj

14-03-2010, 13:27

KennyVader

14-03-2010, 13:33

Well the airdrops were specifically summoned by someone taking specific action inside the hatch weren't they, entering 24 on the computer or something. And they came pretty fast, like within minutes, not days. So there had to be a Dharma supplies base pretty nearby. I have a feeling that that whole supplies drop thing is one of the bits the writers didn't really think through, so it will never be mentioned again or explained, but it would be nice to be proved wrong!

scoobyood

14-03-2010, 15:01

We still dob't know how dharma found out abou the island (let alone gregg). Were Widmore's lot part of dharma, the us millitary or something else? If that is explained we can possibly make an educated guess. I would say Dharna are trying to get back to the island and have been sending airdrops in the hope some of their people are alive

That has been kind of explained already. The Black Rock was captained by Magnus Hanso, Magnus is meant to be buried on the island near the ship. The first mate's diary, the only surviving evidence of the ship's last voyage, was recovered from another island. Then it was owned by the Hanso family until it was sold to Widmore in season 4. I think we can take from that the book contains information about the island. So the Hanso's used the diary or even information passed down the generations to build the Lampost and find the island again... and then start Dharma.
They might have not left the island at all and several generations of Hanso's could have began the others or something.... the Richard episode will, we hope, cover him on that ship, so we might meet a Hanso episode after next. :)

Jaime

14-03-2010, 15:45

That has been kind of explained already. The Black Rock was captained by Magnus Hanso, Magnus is meant to be buried on the island near the ship. The first mate's diary, the only surviving evidence of the ship's last voyage, was recovered from another island. Then it was owned by the Hanso family until it was sold to Widmore in season 4. I think we can take from that the book contains information about the island. So the Hanso's used the diary or even information passed down the generations to build the Lampost and find the island again... and then start Dharma.
They might have not left the island at all and several generations of Hanso's could have began the others or something.... the Richard episode will, we hope, cover him on that ship, so we might meet a Hanso episode after next. :)

The diary wouldn't contain any information about the island. The Black Rock was attacked by another ship before it arrived on the island and the diary was one of the things stolen from it.

john316

14-03-2010, 16:25

scoobyood

14-03-2010, 17:13

The diary wouldn't contain any information about the island. The Black Rock was attacked by another ship before it arrived on the island and the diary was one of the things stolen from it.

We don't know that, it was discovered 7 years after the ship went missing. It and the person writing it could have been anywhere in that time. Just because it was found with pirate artefacts it doesn't mean that it was immediately removed from the ship and never got near the island. Why would Widmore want it so bad and why would it's contents be kept a secret if it contained nothing? Be a bit pointless for it to be included in the show really...

Gedalia

14-03-2010, 18:14

Any ideas if the rather ancient looking laptop in the Principal's office was meant to indicate something as well? Seemed slightly out of place with the alternate universe supposedly in the same time line as the show?

I noticed that too. Maybe Dharma was responsible for tech advances that didnt happen due to the island being under water?

Woz

14-03-2010, 18:19

Jack could kill Richard the same as Ben could Kill Jacob.. people "touched by Jacob" ... can't kill themselves because they can't change their fate.

Is Jacob "Fate"? As in the god?

scoobyood

14-03-2010, 19:15

Is Jacob "Fate"? As in the god?

:shrug:

I was referring to "fate" as a way to say.. "predestined events". Much as Charlie had to die because Desmond saw it happen... other candidates have other events they can't escape. Jacob sets those events. Whether or not you could call him a god is down to personal preference, I don't think the show will explicitly state it one way or the other.

To quote Groundhog Day...

"Phil: Well maybe the *real* God uses tricks, you know? Maybe he's not omnipotent. He's just been around so long he knows everything. "

Jaime

14-03-2010, 20:08

We don't know that, it was discovered 7 years after the ship went missing. It and the person writing it could have been anywhere in that time. Just because it was found with pirate artefacts it doesn't mean that it was immediately removed from the ship and never got near the island. Why would Widmore want it so bad and why would it's contents be kept a secret if it contained nothing? Be a bit pointless for it to be included in the show really...

I checked Lostpedia and you're right. Could have sworn that the auctioneer had commented on the ship being attacked while it was sailing.

As an explanation for how Dharma learned about the island, it works for me. Still not sure why Widmore would be so interested in it though; surely he knew about the Lighthouse station and the fact that the island was constantly moving, so he the diary would have been useless for him finding it.

KennyVader

14-03-2010, 20:15

Maybe the diary/journal gives the formula for working out where the island is. Perhaps it follows a repeatable or predictable pattern, that can be calculated based on the entries in the journal of where the island was at some points in the past.

As for the head teacher's laptop, I noticed that it was seriously ancient, too ancient to be an accident or crap prop, people in the crew would have been laughing at it etc, and the camera definitely lingered on it slightly, which usually means they want you to notice it. I couldn't think of an explanation though, but I like the idea that the island now being underwater has hampered tech advances somehow. Although it is difficult to see how laptops could be held back but stuff like airplanes and LAX airport not.

scoobyood

14-03-2010, 20:36

cjanderson

14-03-2010, 20:48

i just want jin and sun back together. THEY ARE NOT FAR APART (actually where is jin? was he in the temple when smokey came?)

dr ben and alex was sweet.

john316

14-03-2010, 21:26

I think it's just over compensation by the prop department, remember the alt-time line is set in 2004. It's not exactly far fetched for some one to have a laptop which is 3 or 4 years old. That makes it circa 2000-2001.. which is about right.

I'd have said about 96-98 for a laptop of that design - it certainly stood out like a sore thumb to me.

stupidboyjj

14-03-2010, 21:56

To be fair, Leslie Artz did keep moaning about his lab stuff being from the 50s or 60s and wanted 21st century stuff, perhaps the school was just operating with what their budget allowed??

scoobyood

14-03-2010, 22:03

I'd have said about 96-98 for a laptop of that design - it certainly stood out like a sore thumb to me.

Okay, but why would the old laptop be significant when he has what looks like a Cisco voip phone next to? I get stick for my "waffle" theories, but reading into the oddly ageing laptop that an incidental school principle uses for working a money strapped school is fine? :lol:

Jaime

15-03-2010, 05:57

Prop department probably just grabbed the first obvious pre-2004 laptop they saw.

Delta Kneebone

15-03-2010, 09:44

Okay, but why would the old laptop be significant when he has what looks like a Cisco voip phone next to? I get stick for my "waffle" theories, but reading into the oddly ageing laptop that an incidental school principle uses for working a money strapped school is fine? :lol:

Perhaps in the original timeline Bill Gates was part of the Dharma Initiative and used the secrets of the Island to develope the Windows Operating System. In the original timeline he left the Island but in the alt timeline he was killed by the bomb going off and thus the development of Windows never happened and consequently technology was slowed down making that old laptop state of the art in 2004.:)

Boink!

15-03-2010, 15:11

Perhaps in the original timeline Bill Gates was part of the Dharma Initiative and used the secrets of the Island to develope the Windows Operating System.
Not Bill Gates, but Faraday was off the island from 1974 -77 so he might have helped kick started the computer revolution to assist with his studies to save Charlotte...

Jaime

15-03-2010, 18:55

Computers aren't a scientific breakthrough. They were developed from engineering and mathematics. We haven't seen Dharma involved with either. Their research on the island has purely been into physics and biology and there are absolutely no special properties of the island that in any way could accelerate the development of home computers. Hell, the unique magnetic properties of the island would hinder their development a great deal.

Delta Kneebone

15-03-2010, 22:19

mhare

16-03-2010, 15:42

Every time I see Ilyana it always strikes me that she could pass as an older alex. Have we had any back story on her yet.

Wasn't she mentioned in one of the widmore heavy episode, where lock gets dumped in the desert after turning the wheel maybe

smst

16-03-2010, 16:11

Something I think I've mentioned about Ilana before is that when we saw her Jacob-related flashback, her face was bandaged. So she might well be somebody we've met before whose appearance has changed.

Richie

16-03-2010, 16:56

Scruffy the Janitor

17-03-2010, 09:50

Computers aren't a scientific breakthrough. They were developed from engineering and mathematics.

Ermmm Jaquard Silk looms lead to the development of computers and 'counting Machines'

Jaime

17-03-2010, 10:00

Ermmm Jaquard Silk looms lead to the development of computers and 'counting Machines'

A loom is a piece of mechanical engineering. I guess, using a broad definition of science, then yes it's science, but not the areas that we've seen Dharma experiment with.

KennyVader

19-03-2010, 00:35

Ben's Best Bits :)

<embed src='http://spoilerfiles.com/spoilertv/flvplayerv4.swf' height='362' width='644' allowscriptaccess='always' allowfullscreen='true' flashvars='&file=http%3A%2F%2Fll.media.abc.com%2Fvideo%2Fmp4%2F644x362%2FLOST_20100310_0423ILOS101410_E_H_Promo_HD720p_41b66312-91c5-47a9-b1f5-0d2973c5d785_2799350.mp4&image=http%3A%2F%2Fspoilerfiles.com%2Fspoilertv%2Fdarkufovideostill.jpg&plugins=viral&stretching=exactfit'/>

Although I'm surprised that they missed out his confrontation with Smokey and the reincarnated Alex in the underground chamber at the end of season 5!