Lost 6x04 "The Substitute"

[scoobyood]

NotLocke: "What if I told you I was the person who could answer the most important question in the world?"
Sawyer: *Laughs* "and what question is that?"
Notlocke: "Why you are on this island"

Then he does :clap:

.... me thinks there is going to be a twist before the season is out though.


Loads of other awesome stuff as well. - Hurly being all business.
- Homely, confident Locke.
- The funeral!
- Ben as a teacher.
- Notlocke being locked as Locke.
- Epic Sawyer Stunt
- Throwing the white rock
- Richard being all **** scared
- NotLocke seeing a ghost :suspect:
- Smoke-O-Vision
- Notlocke being strangely Lockish "you can't tell me what I can't do!" ..hmmm clue of what's to come?
- Rose at work
- Sawyer on 'Of Mice and Men'

[KennyVader]

Nice how their paths all seem to be crossing in the "plane landed OK" timeline ... Ben the teacher was funny!

Richard so confident and powerful in 5 seasons, now reduced to Captain Scaredycat

FakeLocke trying to convince Sawyer that he was the good guy and Jacob is the dodgy one ... not the first time Lost has turned something we've believed to date on his head ... could he be telling the truth

Confirmation that whatever is possessing FakeLocke is "trapped", wants off the island, but clearly needs Sawyer's help

The numbers were written besides the names in the cave

Ben's confession (Benfession?) at the graveside ... Sun and pilot bloke both going "O ... K ..."

Was the disappearing kid a young Jacob or a newly growing Jacob (to replace the one Ben killed) or Aaron or just someone random? Maybe it was a young Widmore? And why was FakeLocke so disturbed by him?

Ilana still knows more than she is letting on dammit!

Also was that the first time we saw things from Smokey's point of view as he was rushing through the jungle / between the houses? Smokeycam :D

[Jaime]

Smokey is the Evil Dead! :eek:

Thought it was an okay episode. Off island story took up too much time imo and it just wasn't interesting.

[DrVenkman]

"What's to say he wont change his appearance again?"
"He can't"
"OK, I will not press for more information and we'll instead just leave that conversation where it is".

I have no doubt that question might come up later but it's so hackneyed that I really can't see the point in them bringing it up at all.

[Richie]

I need to watch this episode again but the bit on the ladders (which was in the season preview if you remember) made me think the writers have been watching Temple of Doom (the rope bridge bit)!

[Grandmaster]

Wouldn't surprise me if the island was some kind of enormous electromagnetic prison for "Locke" and Jacob is the jailer. Also fairly sure that Sawyer will end up as the replacement seeing as he's the only character to have shown any kind of meaningful character progression over the course of the six seasons.

I really hope the parallel timeline goes somewhere because the Locke scenes this week were skullcrushingly uninteresting.

[Delta Kneebone]

This season should have been full of answers with the mystery unravelling. Instead it's abject nonsense. The alternate storyline is complete dross.
After five great seasons it's now so bad it's embarrassing.

[ed_mcl]

Why must everyone talk in ******* riddles?! :nuts:

[Neil Smalley]

Why must everyone talk in ******* riddles?! :nuts:

Because if they did'nt the show would have been over 4 seasons ago..

[shand754]

Personally I thought this episode was great and it really feels like we are speeding towards a resolution now.

[Grandmaster]

A brand new parallel timeline out of nowhere and we're speeding towards a conclusion?!

[kmurph]

Ahh, now I get the significance of throwing the rock in the water.

[shand754]

Yes speeding towards a conclusion because we are getting answers in droves.

The Alternate timeline is showing that the main characters are all fated to come together whether they get to the island or not and I am sure now will link into the main plot. Also this episode explained Jacob's lists and we are getting closer to an explanation for who Richard, Jacob etc is.

Also we see the black and white pebbles again, which harks back to Adam and Eve in the first season.

My theory is that the mysterious blonde kid is Aaron and he will turn out to be Jacob's replacement. Thinking this through the Shepherd remaining on Jacob's list could be Aaron rather than Jack.

[robzinski]

4 - Locke
8 - Reyes
15 - Ford
16 - Jarrah
23 - Shepherd
42 - Kwon

Regarding NotLocke saying he didn't know whether it was Sun or Jin, It must surely be Jin, and thats why Sun didn't go back in time to 1977?

And, where is Kate's name on the roof?

SmokeyCam was great.
Hurley being Locke's boss - :notworthy: Mentioned oh so long ago as what seemed like a little throwaway connection, and its now being put into use!

Something not episode related - What happened to Vincent? When did we last see him?

[Richie]

Vincent is probably Jacob! :D

[shand754]

Vincent was left with Bernard and Rose in the season 5 finale.

[earl_roberts2002]

4 - Locke
8 - Reyes
15 - Ford
16 - Jarrah
23 - Shepherd
42 - Kwon


Plane seat numbers??? Would be slightly lame though :|


And, where is Kate's name on the roof?


Assuming "Kwon" refers to Jin then all the names are male. Presumably a replacement for Jacob or MIB, boh men, would need to be a man?

[TonyG]

Blimey! ... We got actual answers .... kinda! .... But it's Lost & once again its answers that raises a zillion new questions. Intriguing episode as ever though. :thumbs:

[SadMac]

So the alternate timeline is how the world would be without the influence of Jacob and/or EvilLocke, right?

With Ben turning out not to be a nutter, Hurley not having suffered the "numbers curse" and so being confident.. etc.

So depending on what Sawyer eventually decides to do, that timeline might become "our" timeline?

[Jazzatola]

I need to watch this episode again but the bit on the ladders (which was in the season preview if you remember) made me think the writers have been watching Temple of Doom (the rope bridge bit)!Or maybe, erm, Jacob's Ladder? I'll get me coat...

[jester]

Ahh, now I get the significance of throwing the rock in the water.

Is it something to do with the ship Black Rock? /dim

[TonyG]

Or maybe, erm, Jacob's Ladder? I'll get me coat...
:lol:

[Richie]

Or maybe, erm, Jacob's Ladder? I'll get me coat...http://www.instantrimshot.com/ :D :p

[Jungle Ted]

Is it something to do with the ship Black Rock? /dim

Isn't it tied in with good/evil, black/white - the chess game between smokey & Jacob?

[cdm22]

Just a thought but how many people has wheelchair Locke touched in the alternate timeline? Could he be doing exactly what Jacob did thus getting them all to the island?

[TheDot]

I know I am probably the last to pick up on this one, but I was watching this episode trying to figure out what I had seen Locke's fiancee in before. Turns out it was the voice that I was recognising, and that she does the voice of Futurama's Leela.

As I say, probably late to the party on that one but anyway :D

Decent episode this week, nothing spectacular but best of a poor opening season 6 so far for me. Still doesn't feel like we are getting near anything at the type of pace a final season should be though!

[stupidgibbon]

The numbers are back ! yeah !

But does that mean they are explained now ? Mystery over ?

[36Degrees]

I know I am probably the last to pick up on this one, but I was watching this episode trying to figure out what I had seen Locke's fiancee in before. Turns out it was the voice that I was recognising, and that she does the voice of Futurama's Leela.

As I say, probably late to the party on that one but anyway :D

Decent episode this week, nothing spectacular but best of a poor opening season 6 so far for me. Still doesn't feel like we are getting near anything at the type of pace a final season should be though! First time she appeared, I had the same problem, it's like "I know you... but where?!"... practically ruined that episode because it was the only thing on my mind =)

Great episode I thought ! I expected nothing less from a Locke episode, given that last weeks was awful, I expected nothing less given that it was a Kate episode..

[Reverend Scapegoat]

It's Katie Sagal.
She's also in Sons Of Anarchy, and played Peggy in Married With Children :)

[Mark B]

Isn't it tied in with good/evil, black/white - the chess game between smokey & Jacob?

Plenty of possible references - I also thought of the saying from Jesus: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Fits in with the religious allegories that run through Lost.

[Roberto]

i thought it was about the balance of good/evil on the island, hance the scales. Throwing out the black rock into the ocean was him saying 'i won'. And the 'inside joke' made sense to me.

[mbriody]

And the mum in 8 Simple Rules...

It's Katie Sagal.
She's also in Sons Of Anarchy, and played Peggy in Married With Children :)

[Richie]

Throwing out the black rock into the ocean was him saying 'i won'.He threw the WHITE rock into the ocean! ;) :dork:

[Roberto]

duh!!!! Yes sorry, i meant the white rock. Taking it out of the equation

[carlmcg]

The rocks on the scales were TOO obvious, even my girlfriend picked up on that and she doesn't even watch Lost unless I make her.

I was more interested with how they get back out of the cave.

[Coolhand]

it'll turn out there's a back door hidden behind some vines.

[jester]

Watched this a second time and thought of a major goof...(?)

Helen mentions about Lockes father coming to the wedding, didn't Locke end up in a wheelchair becasue his dad threw him out of a window? He is still in a wheelchair so I presume that has not changed.

If so then thats some reconcilliation!

[KennyVader]

Watched this a second time and thought of a major goof...(?)

Helen mentions about Lockes father coming to the wedding, didn't Locke end up in a wheelchair becasue his dad threw him out of a window? He is still in a wheelchair so I presume that has not changed.

If so then thats some reconcilliation!

Don't think that was a goof, think it was deliberate and to show that the non-crash timeline had lots of differences about it.

[Boink!]

Read this elsewhere:
Jack's number is shown as 23. Psalm 23 is the "Lord is my shepherd" one.

[DrVenkman]

Yeah it's not a goof. There's a publicity photo somewhere that shows Locke at his desk, and there's a picture there where he has his arm around his Father.

[KennyVader]

I'm impressed that even with all that the island has been through lately, and the trashing of the village, there's still free and plentiful electricity for Sawyer to run his record player off anyway. That tempest place or a secret chernobyl station somewhere must still be chugging away, won't someone have to put new fuel in eventually?

[ChrisHunt]

4 - Locke
8 - Reyes
15 - Ford
16 - Jarrah
23 - Shepherd
42 - Kwon

Regarding NotLocke saying he didn't know whether it was Sun or Jin, It must surely be Jin, and thats why Sun didn't go back in time to 1977?


Why not Ji Yeon? Jacob touched Jin & Sun at the same time so maybe he was putting half a 'touch' into each of them which translates to Ji Yeon being the chosen one.


Also, Shepherd might not be Jack (Christian, Claire or Aaron??)

[Ragnarak]

Claire is "Littleton" isn't she, which was also on the wall (that one could be Aaron though)

[ChrisHunt]

She is but her father is Shepherd (agree it is more unlikely though)

[TonyG]

The blurb on the ep.5 trailer is "The Time for Questions is Over!"

Thank **** for that! :thumbs:

[Hgm04]

......However, It's not yet time for answers!

[statto]

Or maybe, erm, Jacob's Ladder? I'll get me coat...

I know that was meant as a joke, but Jacob's ladder was a dream that the biblical Jacob had where he saw angels getting from heaven to earth via some form of ladder. Maybe a connection with Jacob and MIB going between the cave and island proper.

I thought this was a great episode, and while they said the numbers weren't going to be fully explained in-show, nice to see a reference to them which sort of makes sense. Also ties in nicely with Jacob's "lists" that they were always going on about.

[arma_uk]

so, aaron is jacob's son - right?

[Richie]

More like Aaron is Jacob!

[Bapapapa]

Also, Shepherd might not be Jack (Christian, Claire or Aaron??)Is Aaron definitely a 'Shephard'..?

Claire wasn't.. Kate isn't.. Jack is only his uncle.. :thinking:

[jester]

more like my head hurts :lol:

[DrVenkman]

I think being that the other names on the wall are the rest of the survivors, it's safe to say that the Shepard they're referring to is Jack, I don't know why anyone would think otherwise.

Aaron isn't a Shepard, hell Claire isn't even a Shepard is she? She's never referred to herself as one so I don't know why the show would suddenly regard her as one.

[TonyG]

Apparently the career counselor that Locke didn't get on with, was also the psychic that Hurley went to see in the episode, "Tricia Tanaka is Dead".

I got that from another forum, before any of you accuse me of being a Lost-Anorak. :p

[doesnotcompute]

4 - Locke
8 - Reyes
15 - Ford
16 - Jarrah
23 - Shepherd
42 - Kwon

And, where is Kate's name on the roof?

Add them all together for a nice 108.

Plane seat numbers??? Would be slightly lame though :|

Not unless Locke and Hurley were traveling in first class.

I know that was meant as a joke, but Jacob's ladder was a dream that the biblical Jacob had where he saw angels getting from heaven to earth via some form of ladder. Maybe a connection with Jacob and MIB going between the cave and island proper.


I thought that the parallel ladders nicely represented parallel time lines and used sawyer to show a 'crossing over'.

[SithLordSi]

Aaron could be regarded as a Shepard. His grandfather is Christian Shepard, after all.

[foilman]

My suspicion is that the "alternate timeline" is actually how the series ends. Instead of wrapping it all up in the final episode with "everything is reset, Jack goes on to do this, Locke goes on to do that" they're spreading out the answers to what they did next throughout the episodes, and the final episode will just link the last bits on the island to the bit with them on the plane at the start of this series.

Kind of like they were trying to do at the end of the last season (exploding a bomb to ensure they never crash). But perhaps the bomb worked in a weird way and now they have to complete something on the island before the alternate becomes the real timeline.

[DrVenkman]

Aaron could be regarded as a Shepard. His grandfather is Christian Shepard, after all.

I don't know that kids usually take the name of their long lost grandparents.

The show has made a big issue of Jack's leadership issues, it's clear why he would be on Jacob's list. I think debating "which Shepard they're talking about even though only 2 characters are called Shepard and one of them is dead" is looking for a mystery where there isn't one.

Far more intriguing is why it makes a point of naming all the main cast except for Kate. Here's hoping they solve the romantic triangle by killing her. It'll probably be Jack's fault so racked with guilt he'll be the new Jacob.

[Matt KB]

Why is Ben a teacher? If they never crashed then the island would still have existed and Ben would still have been there, so why would be move onto main land and install himself with a proper job?

[earl_roberts2002]

It's interesting that MIB is and has been trapped as Locke since the O6 arrived back on the island as we've had a Christian sighting since then. It fact it was Christian who told Sun and Lapidus that they should wait for Locke. So much for my theory that MIB was reanimating the dead and had appeared as Yemi, Christian, Locke and interestingly Claire :(

[Highlander]

Why is Ben a teacher? If they never crashed then the island would still have existed and Ben would still have been there, so why would be move onto main land and install himself with a proper job?

Isn't the island at the bottom of the sea in the 'alternate' timeline? So no island for him to be on.

[Jungle Ted]

Plane seat numbers??? Would be slightly lame though :|


Wasn't this established as being the case in Season two or three? Maybe i'm getting more confused than ever :thinking:. think i'll have to have a mammoth sitting and watch the lot again.

[Richie]

It's interesting that MIB is and has been trapped as Locke since the O6 arrived back on the island as we've had a Christian sighting since then. It fact it was Christian who told Sun and Lapidus that they should wait for Locke. So much for my theory that MIB was reanimating the dead and had appeared as Yemi, Christian, Locke and interestingly Claire :(
I think he's only trapped as Locke since Jacob died.

[Matt KB]

Isn't the island at the bottom of the sea in the 'alternate' timeline? So no island for him to be on.

Good point. Although I'm not sure how as if the plane didn't crash, surely all events up to it would be the same.

One step closer to beyond caring.

[ChrisHunt]

Isn't the island at the bottom of the sea in the 'alternate' timeline? So no island for him to be on.

Wasn't Ben also on the island still when the bomb went off (still at the temple??). If so then we can now rule out the bomb sinking the island as he would have had to get off some time between the bomb going off and the island sinking.

[Bapapapa]

Isn't the island at the bottom of the sea in the 'alternate' timeline? So no island for him to be on.The Dharma village and swings and stuff were there though - despite it being under sea.. :suspect::nuts:

[Richie]

Maybe that's where the island "moved" to! ;)
Ben moves the island (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz18Eo_q2-Y)

and plop!

it's underwater!
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[ChrisHunt]

Another thought - we know the numbers have been around for ages so I would assume Jacob / MIB are both aware of them. Therefore, surely Jacob must have made a connection at some point (I imagine when he had 7 candidates left and looked at them he must have said to himself "hmm I wonder who will be crossed out next??"!)

of course Jacob / mib could just also have no ideas about the numbers!

One other option is that there is some sort of time loop going on where the numbers are variables that can be changed and the way to change them is to change the final 6 candidates. This all hurts my head too much though!

[loujareth]

My suspicion is that the "alternate timeline" is actually how the series ends. Instead of wrapping it all up in the final episode with "everything is reset, Jack goes on to do this, Locke goes on to do that" they're spreading out the answers to what they did next throughout the episodes, and the final episode will just link the last bits on the island to the bit with them on the plane at the start of this series.

Kind of like they were trying to do at the end of the last season (exploding a bomb to ensure they never crash). But perhaps the bomb worked in a weird way and now they have to complete something on the island before the alternate becomes the real timeline.

I'm liking this explaination a lot as it makes sense but knowing Lost, it's too satisfying a conclusion to happen. It would explain the point that has just been raised about Ben being a teacher, if the island we see at the beginning of this series is a result of what happens at the end of this series, then everyone is off and given the chance to live their life as it should be. A reward?

[statto]

Not looking like much of a reward for Locke or Kate though. I guess at least he's alive in that timeline.

[KennyVader]

Wasn't Ben also on the island still when the bomb went off (still at the temple??). If so then we can now rule out the bomb sinking the island as he would have had to get off some time between the bomb going off and the island sinking.

Alternatively he simply never went to the island at all (i.e. as a boy) because in the alternate timeline, his Dad Roger Workman never went there either! So he just grew up to be a teacher!

[doesnotcompute]

Alternatively he simply never went to the island at all (i.e. as a boy) because in the alternate timeline, his Dad Roger Workman never went there either! So he just grew up to be a teacher!

Which is possible if the 'change instigated in the last episode' goes further back than merely preventing the plane crash.

[DrVenkman]

Good point. Although I'm not sure how as if the plane didn't crash, surely all events up to it would be the same.

One step closer to beyond caring.

Basically the Island was 'destroyed' when Jughead went off (We don't know that for sure, but that's presumably the case). So with the Island being underwater everyone's fates have changed, that's why we also see Ethan as Claire's Doctor in the last episode.

It's probably no good trying to explain alternate timelines etc

[Boink!]

Maybe that's where the island "moved" to! ;)
Ben moves the island (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz18Eo_q2-Y)

and plop!

it's underwater!
From another forum:
"Polar Bears. The Dharma initiative had polar bears on the island to train them (remember the cage that Sawyer was in -- with pushing the button to get the fish bisket?)....well the polar bears were being trained to turn the wheel to move the island so that no body on the island had to leave after turning the wheel.....hence why the wheel was so big and why Charlotte found the bones of the polar bear with the Dharma symbol on it in the desert (in the episode when we were first introduced to the newbies)."

Maybe Dharma got one of the bears to move the wheel and (like the teleport function in Asteroids, one too many and you could end up exploding) the island ended up under the sea. :nuts:

[Delta Kneebone]

Which is possible if the 'change instigated in the last episode' goes further back than merely preventing the plane crash.

In theory the change goes back to 1977, so everyone who went to the island after that didn't including all the Losties, the mad French bird and Ethan/Juliet. Ben should have still been there when the bomb went off but not at the Temple because Sayid wouldn't have been there to shoot him - but the Losties wouldn't have been there to blow the island up and sink it.
It has all the corny age old time travel conundrums and until they explain the point of the "alternate timeline" it makes no sense whatsoever.

[Richie]

Except that they already established that Whatever Happened, Happened.

[Delta Kneebone]

Except that they already established that Whatever Happened, Happened.

Really? When was this? Faraday theorised it and then changed his mind.

[wonderfibre]

so, aaron is jacob's son - right?

Where did this come from!? We met Aaron's father back in series 1 - he was some australian douchebag IIRC

Good point. Although I'm not sure how as if the plane didn't crash, surely all events up to it would be the same.

One step closer to beyond caring.

We've seen that things weren't the same leading up to the plane crash. e.g.; Hurley being lucky, Locke still being with his fiance etc


Not looking like much of a reward for Locke or Kate though. I guess at least he's alive in that timeline.

Locke's with the love of his life!

[DrVenkman]

The whole point of the alternate Locke timeline is John Locke finally accepting that there are in fact some things he can't do, and he'll be happier for knowing it.

[thatzit]

Wasn't Ben also on the island still when the bomb went off (still at the temple??). If so then we can now rule out the bomb sinking the island as he would have had to get off some time between the bomb going off and the island sinking.

When they were doing all the jumping about in time on the island in a previous season didn't they make the bomb safe?

I guess if the plane never crashed and they didn't go on the island then they didn't jump about in time and it was the bomb going off years ago that put the island at the bottom of the sea?

This is why we see (brother) desomond on the plane in the alternate time line. He couldn't have sailed around the world and ended up on the island before the losties as the island has been at the bottom of the sea for years?

Does any of this make sense?

[wonderfibre]

thatzit - that's it! It didn't occur to me that the island may have been sunk in the 50s

[Quincunx]

thatzit - that's it!
:lol:

[Harsin]

It kind of takes the mystique away from your new antagonist when you see him puffing and panting chasing after a young boy with his moobs flapping in the wind.

[GAmbrose]

To be fair, Terry O'Quinn is 57.

[sleepy67]

With Not!Locke saying he's a man I'm sticking with my theory that he's from the future, imprisoned on the Island and in time with Jacob as his jailer.

[new]

It kind of takes the mystique away from your new antagonist when you see him puffing and panting chasing after a young boy with his moobs flapping in the wind.

To be fair, Terry O'Quinn is 57.

Im 15 years younger than him and wish I was as fit and my moobs as small as his:(

So far Im enjoying this series, although there is a somewhat calmer feel to it than the others.

I think Im in the minority here about wanting black and white answers to everything. The thing I have liked about LOST all these years is that it leaves it open to the viewer and lets me think what I think has happened and going on. I hope there will still be a few WTF unanswered moments that will have me buying the complete set on Blu Ray to watch all over again.

[Delta Kneebone]

Presumably teacher Ben will still have his spinal tumor irrespective of the timeline changes. Whilst sharing tea with Locke in the teachers lounge he'll tell Locke he has a spinal tumor and Locke will say "Ooh I know a spinal surgeon" and pass on his free consultation with Jack who'll save his life like he did on the island.

[AndyWilson]

It's got to all end with the 2 timelines meeting surely?

The same people end up in the same places at the same time with the same alive-or-deadness no matter which route they took to get there.

[Boink!]

Presumably teacher Ben will still have his spinal tumor irrespective of the timeline changes. Whilst sharing tea with Locke in the teachers lounge he'll tell Locke he has a spinal tumor and Locke will say "Ooh I know a spinal surgeon" and pass on his free consultation with Jack who'll save his life like he did on the island.
Hey, never considered that. That should happen.

[Gizmo]

It's got to all end with the 2 timelines meeting surely?

The same people end up in the same places at the same time with the same alive-or-deadness no matter which route they took to get there.

That's my belief too, that the two timelines or alt realities converge. The alt timeline is not a flashback or flashforward, the writers have already confirmed that.

I seem to be in the minority of really enjoying the off island stuff - possibly as it all feels like it has a point rather than some of the meandering flashbacks in the early seasons.

[JohnMac]

Really enjoyed that episode and there were some great scenes between NotLocke and Sawyer where there were answers but not complete answers at the same time. I don't think NotLocke was telling the truth about the Island doesn't need protecting because that was the only moment he didn't seem in complete control. There has to be a purpose as to why Jacob went to all that trouble to get everyone on the island beyond what he was saying. I'm happy with how the numbers have been explained while keeping some mystery behind them.

I just hope they have a well thought out plan for the Endgame of Lost because this has the potential to be one of the best endings to a series or a complete mess.

[Monkey Butler]

When they were doing all the jumping about in time on the island in a previous season didn't they make the bomb safe?

I guess if the plane never crashed and they didn't go on the island then they didn't jump about in time and it was the bomb going off years ago that put the island at the bottom of the sea?

This is why we see (brother) desomond on the plane in the alternate time line. He couldn't have sailed around the world and ended up on the island before the losties as the island has been at the bottom of the sea for years?

Does any of this make sense?

Genius! I'd never considered that. I figured that the ripple effect of the explosion in 1977 would only change events after that time.

The only problem i have now is getting my mind around all of the things that would potentially affect (e.g. Locke never told richard to visit himself as a baby, or possibly that Richard, Widmore and Hawkings all died in the explostion).

[Delta Kneebone]

When they were doing all the jumping about in time on the island in a previous season didn't they make the bomb safe?

I guess if the plane never crashed and they didn't go on the island then they didn't jump about in time and it was the bomb going off years ago that put the island at the bottom of the sea?

This is why we see (brother) desomond on the plane in the alternate time line. He couldn't have sailed around the world and ended up on the island before the losties as the island has been at the bottom of the sea for years?

Does any of this make sense?

thatzit - that's it! It didn't occur to me that the island may have been sunk in the 50s


Genius! I'd never considered that. I figured that the ripple effect of the explosion in 1977 would only change events after that time.

The only problem i have now is getting my mind around all of the things that would potentially affect (e.g. Locke never told richard to visit himself as a baby, or possibly that Richard, Widmore and Hawkings all died in the explostion).

If the bomb went off in the 50's what year was the Dharma village built which is clearly seen on the sunken island?

[Sammy709Sony930]

How do NotLocke & Sawyer get out from that cave as the rope ladder collapsed on the way down, nearly killing Sawyer?

Why chuck the white rock in the sea?

[scoobyood]

How do NotLocke & Sawyer get out from that cave as the rope ladder collapsed on the way down, nearly killing Sawyer?

Why chuck the white rock in the sea?

They go down and then walk along the coast? Maybe the next episode will start with Locke turning into smokey and carrying Sawyer out :lol:

Some one has already explained the white rock throwing in this thread probably at least twice.

[statto]

If the bomb went off in the 50's what year was the Dharma village built which is clearly seen on the sunken island?

Never mind that. How does a bomb going off sink an island? Put a big crater in it, yes, send it to the ocean floor, no.

[WeaselFierce]

Great episode. Good to have the focus back on Locke and Sawyer.

I don't understand why NotLocke can't change his appearance anymore though. He already did when he appeared as Ben's daughter. Unless, of course, it's because Jacob's dead... :shrug:

[KennyVader]

Either that or maybe he only gets one chance in each dead person's image?

It was probably another throw away line designed to whip up Lost forums and will never ever be mentioned again or explained :D

[Bapapapa]

Never mind that. How does a bomb going off sink an island? Put a big crater in it, yes, send it to the ocean floor, no.Of course it can't. Duhh..!!

A giant donkey wheel is able to transport it all over time & space though.. :nuts: :D

EDIT - maybe the bomb displaced the wheel..!? :p

[statto]

I almost put a tiny addendum pondering how long it would be before someone posted "on an island with a smoke monster and the ability to move through time and space, the bomb is what you find hard to believe?"

[ajr90]

With Not!Locke saying he's a man I'm sticking with my theory that he's from the future, imprisoned on the Island and in time with Jacob as his jailer.

Doubt he's from the future - when Sawyer asks if he's read "Of Mice and Men", Not!Locke tells him that he hasn't because (paraphrased) "It must be after my time." This would indicate (to me) that Not!Locke (and Jacob) date back to at least the time of the Black Rock crew, and probably even earlier.

[statto]

They definitely go back way before the Black Rock because the season five finale saw them watching it sail towards the island, and it was clear from their conversation that they'd been together for a very long time even then.

[Jonnyrepp]

I reckon we'll be none the wiser when this whole series is over and people will spend as long arguing over the "true meaning" of Lost as they have of The Prisoner.

[AdamBrunt]

If the "alternate" and island timelines end up merging (ie the altermate timeline isn't actually alternate but what happens after this season has finished) ... why don't any of them recognise each other ?

Also, why would the kid be Aaron ? (a) he looked far older than Aaron would be (isn't Aaron less than 4yrs old ?) and (b) NotLocke clearly knows who he is. My theory is ... the kid is Jacob reborn.

[Delta Kneebone]

If the "alternate" and island timelines end up merging (ie the altermate timeline isn't actually alternate but what happens after this season has finished) ... why don't any of them recognise each other ?


I don't think that's what it means. The idea is (supposedly) that at the end of this Season they discover a way of actually changing their own pasts and never go to the island. The "alternate" timeline is actually what happens after they do whatever they're going to do in order to make the change. The story of what happens after the change is being told along side the story leading up to the change.

[sleepy67]

If the alternate is what happens at the end then Charlie, Kate and Claire seem to have got the bum end of the deal. Hurley and Locke have much better lives than in the original timeline and Sayid gets to meet his love in 2004 without the Ben/Widmore drama.

[Richie]

If the "alternate" and island timelines end up merging (ie the altermate timeline isn't actually alternate but what happens after this season has finished) ... why don't any of them recognise each other ?There have been flickers of recognition from various characters in that "I know I met you but I can't place you" way. It's been subtle but it's there several times already.

I don't think that's what it means. The idea is (supposedly) that at the end of this Season they discover a way of actually changing their own pasts and never go to the island. The "alternate" timeline is actually what happens after they do whatever they're going to do in order to make the change. The story of what happens after the change is being told along side the story leading up to the change.

My take is that these "flash-sideways" will dovetail into the main timeline at some point well into the season. There is only one ultimate timeline and the sideways bits are just part of the course correction and not the ultimate end of the story.

[statto]

I don't think that's what it means. The idea is (supposedly) that at the end of this Season they discover a way of actually changing their own pasts and never go to the island. The "alternate" timeline is actually what happens after they do whatever they're going to do in order to make the change. The story of what happens after the change is being told along side the story leading up to the change.

I know you've posted this as the "consensus view" before now, but I'm still not buying it. The show creators have specifically referred to them as flashsideways, so that would indicate this isn't the main protagonists future that we're seeing.

[Richie]

this isn't the main protagonists future that we're seeing.:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: I can't think why anyone would either assume it is or want it to be as it would suck horribly.

[scoobyood]

I know you've posted this as the "consensus view" before now, but I'm still not buying it. The show creators have specifically referred to them as flashsideways, so that would indicate this isn't the main protagonists future that we're seeing.

Well whether or not it's the end of the show and their future as we see it.. it doesn't mean it can't be called a flash sideways. Technically it''s still an alternate time line regardless of when we see it. It's a flash back to 2004 and forwards to the end of the series.. I'd say that could be described as sideways.

But saying that I agree with you and Richie; might initial reaction in the first thread of the season was "it's a flash to the end of the show" .. but from what Darlton have said and all the little clues which link that 2004 "reality" to the island reality.. I think they are going to tie together about half way through the season. Be interesting to see how the hell they are going to do that because it's frickin weird :lol:

[Help]

They definitely go back way before the Black Rock because the season five finale saw them watching it sail towards the island, and it was clear from their conversation that they'd been together for a very long time even then.

I thought this too. As an aside, was it definitely the Black Rock? I thought it had probably ended up on the island after an island move?

[DuncanSWardle]

Where is Jim Robinson in all this ?

[Bish]

I reckon we'll be none the wiser when this whole series is over and people will spend as long arguing over the "true meaning" of Lost as they have of The Prisoner.
I'm fairly certain you're right. It's been my fear since the first season that it turns out like that. As great as Lost has been at times it's been very frustrating in equal measure.

I thought last season was very good but this season has been a let down so far for me, all this new others & forwards/sideways flashback ******** :nuts:

[AndyWilson]

If the "alternate" and island timelines end up merging (ie the altermate timeline isn't actually alternate but what happens after this season has finished) ... why don't any of them recognise each other ?

I'm not saying that - I'm saying there's 2 seperate but parallel timelines.

To simplify it, and ignore all the timeshifts and the bomb...

Timeline A - Plane takes off, crashes on island, stuff happens on the island and in the end we're left with a group of people in some circumstances.

Timeline B - Plane takes off, doesn't crash, stuff happens not on island BUT in the end we're left with the same group of people in the same circumstances as A

A takes the high road and b takes the low road, but they both end up in scotland.

The "flash sideways" isn't the future of the Island losties, it's just a different route to their future.

[Delta Kneebone]

I'm not saying that - I'm saying there's 2 seperate but parallel timelines.

To simplify it, and ignore all the timeshifts and the bomb...

Timeline A - Plane takes off, crashes on island, stuff happens on the island and in the end we're left with a group of people in some circumstances.

Timeline B - Plane takes off, doesn't crash, stuff happens not on island BUT in the end we're left with the same group of people in the same circumstances as A

A takes the high road and b takes the low road, but they both end up in scotland.

The "flash sideways" isn't the future of the Island losties, it's just a different route to their future.

In other words no matter what path on the road of life a Human Being takes they always end up dead.:clap:

[IndianaJones00]

Having two timelines taking place at the same time makes total sense to me because if the losties travelled into the past and set off the bomb the future that they came from would still have to exist otherwise the events that lead them to travel back intime in the first place would never happen.

As a result we have the original timeline which they were shifted back to at the start of this season but you also have the alternate timeline that was created when they detonated the bomb which sunk the island changing the fates of not only those on the plan but many others (ie Desmond/Rusco/Witmore/Kate's Dad/Ethan/Juliet etc)

This is the only way to get around the grandfather paradox.

[arma_uk]

i reckon it's all a dream and in the final episode, bobby steps out of the shower :)

[Delta Kneebone]

Having two timelines taking place at the same time makes total sense to me because if the losties travelled into the past and set off the bomb the future that they came from would still have to exist otherwise the events that lead them to travel back intime in the first place would never happen.

As a result we have the original timeline which they were shifted back to at the start of this season but you also have the alternate timeline that was created when they detonated the bomb which sunk the island changing the fates of not only those on the plan but many others (ie Desmond/Rusco/Witmore/Kate's Dad/Ethan/Juliet etc)

This is the only way to get around the grandfather paradox.

It might make sense in theory but the writers have said that it's not an alternate timeline.

[Richie]

i reckon it's all a dream and in the final episode, bobby steps out of the shower :)
...in the Tommy Westphall Universe.
The final episode of "St. Elsewhere" reveals that the entire series was a fantasy of Donald Westphall's autistic son Tommy, who is seen holding a snow globe with St. Eligius hospital inside.
As characters from St. Elsewhere have appeared on other television shows and those shows' characters appeared on more shows, a "Tommy Westphall Universe" hypothesis was developed where a significant amount of fictional episodic television exists within Tommy Westphall's imagined fictional universe
*head explodes*

[Smiler]

Only got to watch this tonight and thought it was a decent episode as it was mostly Locke and Sawyer, was thinking I was gettin a grip on it till I read thru this thread :brickwall think I need to watch again :dork:



Ritchie coulda used spoilers there, Im only up to series 5 :nuts:




On a serious note does anyone feel that ABC will try a spinoff sometime after this ends? Considering the interest in the show, the money spent on sets and location shooting plus the fact we seem to be getting too many new faces and sets for a wrap up series?



Smiler

[Richie]

Ritchie coulda used spoilers there, Im only up to series 5 :nuts:Oh god I'm so sorry! :brickwall :doh:

[statto]

...in the Tommy Westphall Universe.
The final episode of "St. Elsewhere" reveals that the entire series was a fantasy of Donald Westphall's autistic son Tommy, who is seen holding a snow globe with St. Eligius hospital inside.
As characters from St. Elsewhere have appeared on other television shows and those shows' characters appeared on more shows, a "Tommy Westphall Universe" hypothesis was developed where a significant amount of fictional episodic television exists within Tommy Westphall's imagined fictional universe
*head explodes*

That's officially the cackest end to a TV series ever. Even shows that end on unresolved cliffhangers are better than that. I remember my parents going mental over that when it was first shown. :lol:

BTW Wasn't Smiler kidding? Spoilers for a show that ended 22 years ago. :nuts:

[Smiler]

Oh god I'm so sorry! :brickwall :doh:





Sorry mate was only joking :notworthy

[Captain_Howdy666]

BTW Wasn't Smiler kidding? Spoilers for a show that ended 22 years ago. :nuts:

Why not? I've never seen it as I'm sure others haven't either. Better to be safe than sorry, no?

[statto]

Why not? I've never seen it as I'm sure others haven't either. Better to be safe than sorry, no?

Maybe because if someone hasn't seen a show that old chances are they never will?

Darth Vader is Luke's father BTW. ;)

[Richie]

BTW Wasn't Smiler kidding? Spoilers for a show that ended 22 years ago. :nuts:

Better to be safe than sorry, no?

It only occured to me after I'd posted it that Channel 4 have been re-running the show so you know, just in case! ;)
But yes, cackest ending to a show ever! But really rather funny too! :D

Sorry mate was only joking :notworthy You got me good! :D

[Captain_Howdy666]

Maybe because if someone hasn't seen a show that old chances are they never will?

Yeah, but you don't know that for sure, do you?

There are heaps of TV shows that I've never seen, some of which I now own on DVD but still haven't gotten 'round to watching. I'd be ****** to have them spoiled, especially in a thread that had nothing to do with them to begin with.

[sleepy67]

is that really a spoiler though or a crap ending subject to differing interpretations that don't really effect the shows storylines?

[avid fan]

Decent enough episode. Couldn’t make much out in the cave where the names/numbers were on the roof. Given the way it curved down, I thought it was going to be some massive stone sphere floating up above the cave, but figure it was just a curving ceiling:thinking:

Something else I remembered out of nowhere – at the end of the last season, after Jacob was stabbed his last words were ‘They’re Coming!!!!’ Was this portent of doom referring to the folks in the alternative timeline somehow heading towards some nexus at the point where the two universes collide??? (otherwise I’m out of ideas):shrug:

Lastly, mention of Jim Robinson previously in the thread. I’m sure he’s rear his head again later on to tie things up, but at the moment it seems that he’s been relegated to a middle series baddie (about equivalent to an end of level baddie halfway through a game who seemed very important at the time, but by the end of the game he seems irrelevant!)

[Silver Jet]

So, we got an answer (of sorts) to one of LOST's big mysteries: what the numbers are.
The numbers correspond to six of the Losties and their position on the list of candidates to replace Jacob as the island's protector.
As MIB wasn't sure if 42 Kwon referred to Sun or Jin, does that mean that the one it doesn't refer to is going to die as everybody else on the list has?
I also reckon that The Others are everybody that has ever been on Jacob's candidacy list and brought to the island. I also think that the reason that Ben and Widmore can't kill each other is that killing another candidate results in removal from the list. That's the rule that Ben was referring to in his showdown with Widmore in London.
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. At first I wasn't happy that island Locke was gone, being my favourite character, but I'm warming to NotLocke now whether he's the bad guy or not. The flash-sideways remind me of the season 1 flashbacks when we got to learn about the characters. I reckon that after all the main characters have had a centric episode the flashes will start to merge with the island time-line somehow.

[GAmbrose]

I also reckon that The Others are everybody that has ever been on Jacob's candidacy list and brought to the island. I also think that the reason that Ben and Widmore can't kill each other is that killing another candidate results in removal from the list. That's the rule that Ben was referring to in his showdown with Widmore in London.

I don't think Ben or Widmore were ever candidates...but if they were why would Ben try to kill Locke when he shot him in Season 3? Locke was clearly a candidate.

[smst]

I think being that the other names on the wall are the rest of the survivors, it's safe to say that the Shepard they're referring to is Jack, I don't know why anyone would think otherwise.

Aaron isn't a Shepard, hell Claire isn't even a Shepard is she? She's never referred to herself as one so I don't know why the show would suddenly regard her as one.
I wouldn't assume the other names are just Oceanic 815 survivors: there's also Ajira 316, the freighter, the French science team, Desmon, Kelvin, Juliet, Dharma, the US military and the crew/passengers of the Black Rock. All have been drawn to the Island; all could be candidates. If he wasn't dead (not that that's stopped him being around) I'd say it could refer to Christian.

Why is Ben a teacher? If they never crashed then the island would still have existed and Ben would still have been there, so why would be move onto main land and install himself with a proper job?

I think this has been addressed already, but the timelines diverged earlier than 2004 (see: Desmond on the plane, Shannon not on the plane, Hurley being lucky, Locke having Helen and his dad, the Island being sunk). But the split happened after Dharma arrived on the Island, presumably around the time of the bom, as the sunken Island had New Otherton. The question is therefore: how did Ben get off the Island? Ethan was on the sub; Ben was in the Temple, last we saw.

Perhaps the parallel timeline is a way of resolving the grandfather paradox. It's been "whatever happened, happened" until now, but Faraday (presumably) found a loophole, and the parallel timeline is the only way for the universe to reconcile things. (A loophole! Because somebody wants to break the rules. Similar to the situation with Jacob's death...)

It might make sense in theory but the writers have said that it's not an alternate timeline.
I think they said it's "parallel"; they don't like the word "alternate" as it immediately implies that one is the main timeline and the other is secondary.

I also reckon that The Others are everybody that has ever been on Jacob's candidacy list and brought to the island. I also think that the reason that Ben and Widmore can't kill each other is that killing another candidate results in removal from the list. That's the rule that Ben was referring to in his showdown with Widmore in London.
Is Jacob's nemesis a candidate then?

I don't think Ben or Widmore were ever candidates...but if they were why would Ben try to kill Locke when he shot him in Season 3? Locke was clearly a candidate.
Jacob never told Ben anything; Ben would have had no idea about this.

By the way, Jacob's conversation with his nemesis in the season 5 finale says to me that he's withholding all this information deliberately. He wants to see what people will do, given the choices he's set up (or allowed to be presented); we saw this most clearly with Ben, who could choose not to kill Jacob. If people knew they were being tested as candidates, the test would be invalid.

[Silver Jet]

I don't think Ben or Widmore were ever candidates...but if they were why would Ben try to kill Locke when he shot him in Season 3? Locke was clearly a candidate.
Well, it is only a theory. But, maybe Ben knew that he wouldn't kill Locke when he shot him, he has demonstrated knowledge of the future before.

[Silver Jet]

Is Jacob's nemesis a candidate then?
I get the feeling that the rules that govern MIB and Jacob are different to the rules that govern Ben and Widmore.

[doesnotcompute]

Darth Vader is Luke's father BTW. ;)

Something that was immediately obvious to those who speak Dutch/German who were then confused as to why it was such a shock to the English speaking world.

[unrealnils]

huh?

[GAmbrose]

The Dutch pronounce father as Vater though (Even though it is spelt Vader)

So maybe not so obvious

[kez]

ignore. already mentioned

[doesnotcompute]

The Dutch pronounce father as Vater though (Even though it is spelt Vader)

So maybe not so obvious

They don't. Well, they kind of do.

the d and t are almost interchangeable sounds in most words, but in any case, it was completely obvious to them. But we're heading waay off topic now, sorry.

[Silver Jet]

The Dutch pronounce father as Vater though (Even though it is spelt Vader)

So maybe not so obvious
It's more like fvaater. The V is pronounced like a cross between f and v.

[TigaSefi]

It's more like fvaater. The V is pronounced like a cross between f and v.

Water?


;)

[Jimlad]

ok...

Ben knew about Jacobs list as he tried using Michael to get the 6 right? and that's how Jack/Kate?sawyer ended up in prison? (can't fully remember)

someone correct me? at the end of season two Michael herded up a group ?

[scoobyood]

Well now we've been told Ben never spoke to Jacob and he made up some stuff to maintain power.... Back then Ben needed a spinal surgeon for his tumour, he found out about Jack from Ethan who was the spy in the camp. So the list of 4 people, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley (Hurley was there to take a message back). Could have been entirely Ben's idea.. He needed Jack so he used the love triangle, caged Kate and Sawyer and used them as leverage to get Jack to do the surgery.

But then again... why make Kate and Sawyer work digging out the runway for the Ajira flight to crash land on.. so there must have been some Jacob input somewhere along the line, maybe from Richard? :shrug:

[Jimlad]

Well now we've been told Ben never spoke to Jacob and he made up some stuff to maintain power.... Back then Ben needed a spinal surgeon for his tumour, he found out about Jack from Ethan who was the spy in the camp. So the list of 4 people, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley (Hurley was there to take a message back). Could have been entirely Ben's idea.. He needed Jack so he used the love triangle, caged Kate and Sawyer and used them as leverage to get Jack to do the surgery.

But then again... why make Kate and Sawyer work digging out the runway for the Ajira flight to crash land on.. so there must have been some Jacob input somewhere along the line, maybe from Richard? :shrug:

thanks for clearing that up i was a little blank as to the whole reason

[smst]

But Tom (I think; could have been someone else) expressed concern that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list -- Ben had brought him along anyway for the surgery. If Ben had invented that list, why not put Jack on it as part of the subterfuge? Why add him in such a way that people know he's been added?

On the other hand, if it's Jacob's list, how does it relate to the names in the cave? Hurley sent back to camp, Kate taken, Jack apparently not on it: what did that list represent?

[Silver Jet]

There isn't just one Jacob's list, he issued many and for different reasons i guess. Remember in the season 5 finale just before Ben knifed Jacob, he was moaning about "all those lists".

[Matt_Bro14]

yeah I reckon the next ep might show the REAL jacob list as we've seen that clip from the promos of Jack screaming 'Why is my name on this thing' and smashing something??

[smst]

Please, hide discussion of promo clips and trailers in ... tags. Thanks.