View Full Version : bttf question? time travel nonsense
bazkeane82
26-02-2002, 14:56
i was a bit confused when i saw bttf part 2 the other day,
At the begining in 1985 when marty flies off into the future, why do we find out there is an older version of marty in the future, surely marty wouldn't exsist because he went into the flying car with doc in 1985, he would've be classed as missing from that day after. Also biff saw the flying delorean taking off and remembers this in the future, he says something like 'i havn't seen a flying delorean since 1985' so this means it has to be in the same time line. It just didn't make any sense to me
willingly suspend your disbelief
Squirtle
26-02-2002, 15:01
At the end of BTTF3 he goes back to 1985 - so he's only actually absent from 1985 for about a minute.
Problem solved!
Joe Pasquale
26-02-2002, 15:45
The biggest plothole in BTTF 2 I think is the 'meeting your future/past self'... You see both Jennifer character pass out immediately in 2015, then later on both Biffs are together for quite a while in 1955 but nothing happens. :confused: I suppose the film wouldn't have been much fun if old Biff passed out on his return to 1955 and didn't get the Delorean back, would it? ;)
Originally posted by bazkeane82
At the begining in 1985 when marty flies off into the future, why do we find out there is an older version of marty in the future, surely marty wouldn't exsist because he went into the flying car with doc in 1985, he would've be classed as missing from that day after.
Been saying this for years! Finally, someone else understands!
I just tell people I could explain it a lot better, but I'd need a big blackboard & some chalk ;).
Still my favourite of the trilogy though.
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 15:59
remember that Marty didn't go into the future to save his future self, he's there to stop his future son getting into trouble, as it just happens it's Jenifer that learns about Marty's fate, not Marty himself.
From the timeline point of view it makes sense, because the whole point of the time machine is to go to any date and then return as though you'd never left. We're thereforefore assuming that Marty doesn't die during his escipades and can return to his present life in 1985 and resume it. So, ofcourse he'll be there in the future of 2015..
Of all the timelines BTTF has generally the best and is largely plothole free!! i can think of other timelines in other movies (*cough.. Terminator.. cough*) that dont make as much sense.
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 16:06
Originally posted by bazkeane82
Also biff saw the flying delorean taking off and remembers this in the future, he says something like 'i havn't seen a flying delorean since 1985' so this means it has to be in the same time line. It just didn't make any sense to me
ofcourse Biff will say that, because from his point of view in 2015, up until that momment, he's only seen the Dolorean once in 1985!!! (at the end of BTTF 1, when Doc Whiskes Marty away)..
what's there to be confused about? :confused:
It's only AFTER that event that he can the steal the delorean and head of to give the almanak to his younger self.. and so ERASE the past of "haven't seen one of them in 30 years".. Because from 1955, he'll be then be wise to the Delorean..
juan_schwartz
26-02-2002, 16:12
Yeah, as long as Marty gets back to the point at which he left, the linear timeline is still complete.
For example, when Biff returns the time machine, gets out and promptly dies clutching his stomach. This indicates that when he changed time in 1955, the events he created lead to him being shot sometime before 2015. So as he's travelling back over that point in time to get back to 2015, he receives the wound, which he dies from shortly after.
I hope that's (sort of) clearly explained!
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 16:18
Originally posted by juan_schwartz
I hope that's (sort of) clearly explained!
good explanation Juan! :clap:
see Bazkeane..? it does makes sense.. :P
juan_schwartz
26-02-2002, 16:20
Thank yoooooou!!!!!!!!! :D
Anything to put off doing my dissertation!!!!!!! :nuts:
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 16:22
yeah, and my essay! :D
Dan Druff
26-02-2002, 16:29
Originally posted by juan_schwartz
For example, when Biff returns the time machine, gets out and promptly dies clutching his stomach. This indicates that when he changed time in 1955, the events he created lead to him being shot sometime before 2015. So as he's travelling back over that point in time to get back to 2015, he receives the wound, which he dies from shortly after.
Actually they were going to have him simply fade away at this point, but cynics among the audience would probably question why the car doesn't fade also..
This is the flaw in the movie. Old Biff should arrive in the 2015 which is a result of 'Hell as a result of Almanac' 1985 as they would be now on the same timeline. Instead he arrives in the 2015 which is a result of 'Martys family all happy' 1985 which we see all through the movie.
The Beyond
26-02-2002, 16:30
The biggest plothole in BTTF 2 I think is the 'meeting your future/past self'... You see both Jennifer character pass out immediately in 2015, then later on both Biffs are together for quite a while in 1985 but nothing happens.
Why do you assume that Jennifer passing out is because of the effect of time travel?
If you listen carefully -the older jennifer is shocked at seeing her younger self ("I'm young!")
while the younger Jennifer is shocked at seeing herself old ("I'm Old!")
D'ya see?
It has more to do with her personality rather than a direct effect of them being in the same place at the same time.
Biff is so stupid, he doesn't even recognize his older self :D
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 16:33
Originally posted by Dan Druff
This is the flaw in the movie. Old Biff should arrive in the 2015 which is a result of 'Hell as a result of Almanac' 1985 as they would be now on the same timeline. Instead he arrives in the 2015 which is a result of 'Martys family all happy' 1985 which we see all through the movie.
you've confused me slightly... :confused:
not quite following...
Dan Druff
26-02-2002, 16:48
A.
End of first movie/start of second
1955 ------- 1985 --------- 2015
B.
Biff goes back in time with Almanac. Leads to Alternative 1985
By my calculations the 2015 should also be alternative
2015 ------- 1955 ---A---1985----2015
C.
But Biff arrives back in the 2015 of
A.
End of first movie/start of second
1955 ------- 1985 --------- 2015
juan_schwartz
26-02-2002, 16:50
Hmmmmmm, DD is right, I'm trying to sort it out in my head to figure a way round it......I might need to borrow that big blackboard!!!
Possibility:
This might be stretching it a bit as we don't know how fickle time is. What if, when Biff changes time by giving himself the Almanac, that young Biff doesn't use it, but still ends up getting himself killed. Meaning the 2015 he arrives back in is slightly different but not really noticably so for Marty et al. However when they jump back into the circuits of time (B&T, oh yeah!) they get dropped off in a 1985 where Biff DID use the book...
This is perhaps the ropiest theory I've ever come up with!!!! :confused:
Any other ideas?
Joe Pasquale
26-02-2002, 16:52
Why do you assume that Jennifer passing out is because of the effect of time travel?
If you listen carefully -the older jennifer is shocked at seeing her younger self ("I'm young!")
while the younger Jennifer is shocked at seeing herself old ("I'm Old!")
D'ya see?
Yep, but a few minutes before that happened the Doc gives the speech about 'disatrous consequences', 'end of the universe', etc... It's fortunate that it only put them into shock.
Biff is so stupid, he doesn't even recognize his older self :D
Well, yes, I suppose it's the best explanation. :)
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 16:57
Originally posted by Dan Druff
A.
End of first movie/start of second
1955 ------- 1985 --------- 2015
B.
Biff goes back in time with Almanac. Leads to Alternative 1985
By my calculations the 2015 should also be alternative
2015 ------- 1955 ---A---1985----2015
C.
But Biff arrives back in the 2015 of
A.
End of first movie/start of second
1955 ------- 1985 --------- 2015
ok.. good point..
but again.. from which point of view are we.. from a narrative point of view, we're still following Marty and Doc, not Biff.
The fact that Biff returns to the 2015 and it's seemingly unaltered is not apparent just yet, because Marty and Doc dont stay that long in 2015 for the audience to discover a big difference..
Also: remember who wins at the end of the day? Marty does, so technically, everything's still fine and dandy if you take the whole triology time line and misdemeanors into account.
i would like to point out to you that these films are 'entertainment' and so just do what micheal york says in austin powers 2 and enjoy them as they are!
juan_schwartz
26-02-2002, 17:41
Very good point!
We are all in danger of going cross eyed!!
jamie_rowe
26-02-2002, 18:40
The major problem I have is that at the end of BTTF 1 why don't his parents remember that they met him 30 years ago and that he brought them together? And when Star wars gets released, doesn't george McFly sit up in amazement having been visited by Darth Vader already
As for Part II, you have to kind of go with the flow. There a thousand plotholes, such as why Biff has no reaction when he sees two versions of Marty as he is about to beat one of them up?
And who's supposed to have shot Biff?
Sonicmint
26-02-2002, 19:18
Originally posted by jamie_rowe
The major problem I have is that at the end of BTTF 1 why don't his parents remember that they met him 30 years ago and that he brought them together?
Possible explanation:
Marty would be a distant memory from 1955 and they probably think to themselves "hey, doesn't our son look slightly similar to that guy we breifly met at the dance?"
The way I see BTTF is that there are almost certainly thousands of logical plot holes, but then again these can easily be defended by a possible million variations of story, character, context, situation, ect.
If you think along the lines of that theory then your brain shouldn't hurt as much. ;)
MrSynner
26-02-2002, 19:58
One thing that's always bothered me about BTTF - what happened to the Marty we see leap into the Delorean after Doc's apparent demise at the END of BTTF1 ? 'Our' Marty (Marty1) is standing on a hill overlooking the car park of 'Lone Pine Mall' (which was 'Twin Pine Mall' when he left - the name was changed by his interference in 1955) and sees himself (Marty2) leave.
So what did Marty2 change in 1955? The present Marty2 left would already be the pleasant version we see at the end of BTTF - the rich, happily married parents, with the meek Biff as family friend.
One possible theory is - BTTF2 & BTTF3 actually follow the further adventures of Marty2 - not Marty1 - who goes on to lead the life we see in 2015. This would explain the odd character flaw ('No-one calls me chicken!') that pops up without explanation partway through BTTF2 - it's not the same character. This would also mean that Marty2 goes on to have a much happier life than Marty1 - perhaps even becoming the famous rock star that Marty1 always dreamed of being (the dream he lost following the accident that Jennifer learns of in BTTF2, and we see almost happen in BTTF3).
I think I need to go and have a little lie-down somewhere now....
Logically speaking Marty1 should be Marty2, as Marty is watching what he has already done. However if this is true then the mall would always have the same name.
The BTTF films are full of plot holes like this so it's pointless trying to explain them.
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 20:30
Originally posted by jamie_rowe
The major problem I have is that at the end of BTTF 1 why don't his parents remember that they met him 30 years ago and that he brought them together? And when Star wars gets released, doesn't george McFly sit up in amazement having been visited by Darth Vader already
Well, another explantion is that since the day Marty was conceived, he didn't look like that visited his mum and dad in 1955, so over the years he doesn't mature into some guy they once knew, but the change is so gradual because his parents see him every day it doesn't register. Just like not noticing the differences in close ones around you because you see them so much (eg height, weight, etc).
But as for the Star Wars reference, yeah, it's a wonder George McFly doesn't sue lucus over the idea..
Originally posted by MrSynner
One thing that's always bothered me about BTTF - what happened to the Marty we see leap into the Delorean after Doc's apparent demise at the END of BTTF1 ? 'Our' Marty (Marty1) is standing on a hill overlooking the car park of 'Lone Pine Mall' (which was 'Twin Pine Mall' when he left - the name was changed by his interference in 1955) and sees himself (Marty2) leave.
So what did Marty2 change in 1955?
LOL! watch BTTF 1 VERY carefully in your next sitting, particularly the momment when Marty makes his first jump into 1955, crashes into the barn and Old Man P Body comes in after his boy, with a gun... Marty gets back into the Delorean. He bursts out of the barn and he drives through one of P' Body's trees!! It's near the post box.. - either that, or P Body actaully shoots the small pine tree himself in his hast to get Marty! (which is even funnier!). You can even hear old man P body shouting "you killed my pine! you killed my pine!"..
et voila! No more Twin Pines.. but instead, just one remaining: Lone Pines Mall...
it's in the little detail.. :D
smiddyboy
26-02-2002, 20:38
Originally posted by jamie_rowe
The major problem I have is that at the end of BTTF 1 why don't his parents remember that they met him 30 years ago and that he brought them together?
They do, kind of. Remeber just as Marty is leaving his parents at the dance in 1955. The last shot we see of his mother she is saying something like 'Marty,what a nice name' So Marty has put the idea in his mothers head to name one of her sons Marty.
MrSynner
26-02-2002, 20:41
Originally posted by Idle Child
LOL! watch BTTF 1 VERY carefully in your next sitting, particularly the momment when Marty makes his first jump into 1955, crashes into the barn and Old Man P Body comes in after his boy, with a gun... Marty gets back into the Delorean. He bursts out of the barn and he drives through one of P' Body's trees!! It's near the post box.. - either that, or P Body actaully shoots the small pine tree himself in his hast to get Marty! (which is even funnier!)
et voila! No more Twin Pines.. but instead, just one remaining: Lone Pines Mall...
I had noticed this (as I recall, Marty1 runs over the pinetree, Peabody actually shoots his own mailbox) - my point is - the present Marty2 departs from is the 1985 that Marty1 has already changed for the better. So what gets changed by Marty2 in his trip to 1955? His parents are already the people he always wanted them to be (thanks to Marty1's little nudges), and he's rich, and owns the car he's always dreamed of too.
smiddyboy
26-02-2002, 20:44
Originally posted by MrSynner
One thing that's always bothered me about BTTF - what happened to the Marty we see leap into the Delorean after Doc's apparent demise at the END of BTTF1 ? 'Our' Marty (Marty1) is standing on a hill overlooking the car park of 'Lone Pine Mall' (which was 'Twin Pine Mall' when he left - the name was changed by his interference in 1955) and sees himself (Marty2) leave.
So what did Marty2 change in 1955? The present Marty2 left would already be the pleasant version we see at the end of BTTF - the rich, happily married parents, with the meek Biff as family friend.
We never actually find out what has happened in the life of Marty2. Something may of happened to lead up to him driving the time machine on the night that Marty1 returns to 1985. Even though Marty2 had the more fortunate upbringing (thanks to Marty1) doesn't mean to say that somewhere along the lines he doesn't meet and become friends with Doc Brown, and certain events lead up to what Marty1 saw upon his return. That could be a whole different film!! Marty2 might not of even be going back to 1955!!
Idle Child
26-02-2002, 20:57
hold on, our definitions (lemmie check)..
MARTY 1 = marty at end of film, overlooking the killing of Doc Brown
MARTY 2 = marty getting into car and driving away into 1955 at end of film.
Have i got that correct?
If so, this arguement is null because MARTY 2 is MARTY 1, except MARTY 2 is just the earlier incident replayed from a different angle, and so they are one an the same except from different stand points. It had to occur inorder to even the linear timeline and is more or less a perfect loop.
Remember that Marty 1 has gone back a minute early in order to save Doc, but as it happens is too late and so can only watch himself travel to 1955 in order to get away from the terrorists..
They are not different people. Marty 2 getting into the Delorean at the end of the film is needed to complete the continuity loop and come full circle.
juan_schwartz
26-02-2002, 22:05
Smiddyboy - I love it!! Good theory!!
Consider: when Marty1 shows the 1955 Doc that his time machine actually works, don't you think that the Doc would have been spurred into putting all his efforts into that in 1955, knowing that it will work? Meaning he might have completed it years before 1985. Marty2 - in his now cushy lifestyle - might be bored with having everything he wants and decides to form a Time Travelling Anti-Terrorism Team with the Doc, and the event that we see Marty1 watching at the end of BTTF1 is actually midway through an adventure Marty2 and the Doc are having against the Libians?
Blimey! This could go on for days!!
After reading all these posts,................................my head hurts. :nuts:
razorsharp192
27-02-2002, 03:16
Originally posted by Idle Child
MARTY 2 is MARTY 1, except MARTY 2 is just the earlier incident replayed from a different angle
yes!!! thats right! its the same Marty, its the same when in BTTF2 when we see marty on stage playin the guitar AND up in the rafters, its the same Marty!
khaavren
27-02-2002, 06:05
OK, now we get into the nature versus nurture debate. Is Marty 2 the same as Marty 1? Only if genes are considered. They had different upbringings and will have formed different outlooks on life therefore they are different people (assuming it's NOT all Marty 1 doing everything).
Alternate timelines/parallel universes means multiple 'copies' of people, all slightly different.
Lets all wait for the DVD and find out the answers from the commentary:D :nuts: :D
smiddyboy
27-02-2002, 09:22
Originally posted by razorsharp192
yes!!! thats right! its the same Marty, its the same when in BTTF2 when we see marty on stage playin the guitar AND up in the rafters, its the same Marty!
Ah..but,:nuts:
Just because Marty1 sees himself playing the guitar in 1955 doesn't mean that the marty he saw in 1985 was the same guy.
I LOVE all this time travel stuff.
Lets start a thread on how the time machine works...:nuts:
Well the flux capacitor..blah..blah!!:D
Idle Child
27-02-2002, 11:35
Originally posted by khaavren
Is Marty 2 the same as Marty 1? Only if genes are considered. They had different upbringings and will have formed different outlooks on life therefore they are different people (assuming it's NOT all Marty 1 doing everything).
Alternate timelines/parallel universes means multiple 'copies' of people, all slightly different.
but i dont think this was considered to such an intricate level as you and others are suggesting. I've always been of the opinion that Marty is the same guy (also in outlook and upbringing) throughout the movies (even when in "screen time" with his former self) as i have interpreted this as the same event but from different perspectives.
If you conisider it as one continuous timeline where everything happens once, then Marty2 is Marty1, Marty1 is just viewing previous events he was in. However if this true then the Mall would have the same name in both scenes, which it doesn't.
If you consider it such that the actions of Marty1 affect the present which he came from, then Marty2 is different as he had a different upbringing etc, and when Marty1 watches Marty2 go off in the DeLorean, then he is not viewing his previous actions. The destination of Marty2 could be something different.
Unlike Terminator there are far too many plot holes to make any sense of it as so much of it is contradictory. The only thing you can do is accept that it doesn't make sense and enjoy the film.
juan_schwartz
27-02-2002, 13:52
I think what's coming out of all this is that it depends on what perspective you (the viewer) is taking. And how linear and changeable you think time is.
When Marty knocked over the pine tree, was the name of the Mall immediately changed for everyone in all time i.e. if you stopped Marty right after he'd knocked down the pine (still in 1955), and asked "What's the name of your town Mall?" would he say Twin or Lone?
smiddyboy
27-02-2002, 15:01
Originally posted by juan_schwartz
When Marty knocked over the pine tree, was the name of the Mall immediately changed for everyone in all time i.e. if you stopped Marty right after he'd knocked down the pine (still in 1955), and asked "What's the name of your town Mall?" would he say Twin or Lone?
THAT, my friend is the paradox.
Unless you hold the theory of multiple universes rather than timelines, the above scenario can never happen. What BTTF seems to do is have Marty doing some inter-dimensional travelling where whatever he changes in the 'past' has no effect in his universe. And as quantum theory dictates there are possibilities for infinite universes with infinite amount of Martys doing different things and making different decisions in each one.
Hope that clears things up!
MrSynner
27-02-2002, 17:49
Originally posted by juan_schwartz
I think what's coming out of all this is that it depends on what perspective you (the viewer) is taking. And how linear and changeable you think time is.
When Marty knocked over the pine tree, was the name of the Mall immediately changed for everyone in all time i.e. if you stopped Marty right after he'd knocked down the pine (still in 1955), and asked "What's the name of your town Mall?" would he say Twin or Lone?
Marty1 would say 'Twin Pine' - Marty2 (the hero of BTTF2 & 3) would say 'Lone Pine'.....
Remember the 'Eastwood Ravine' from BTTF3 ? This indicates that the timeline changes (to get all trekky for a second) don't affect Marty's memories, or Doc's. They both know the ravine by the name it had originally, everyone else in their time (presumably Jennifer included) remember it by the Eastwood Ravine name - named after Marty2's alias.
This actually contradicts what happens to Marty1 in BTTF1 - when he changes the future of his parents, the change DOES affect him - he starts to fade away, and interestingly, no-one notices this, even though he fades in public - indicating their perception of him fades too.
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