[F1] Italian GP [Archive] - Forums @ The Digital Fix

The Bear

09-09-2009, 11:06

Friday 11
First practice: 0900-1030
Second practice: 1300-1430

Saturday 12
Third practice: 1000-1100
Qualifying: 1300

Sunday 13
Race: 1300

So Fisi's first race in a Ferrari, and Liuzzi takes over at Force India.

Monza is supposedly a very good KERS track so I expect a good result for Ferrari and probably a fairly aggressive strategy from them.

KERS is apparently going to be mainly used coming out of the long last corner (Parabolica), and then again immediately after crossing the line to give the maximum amount of benefit on the long start/finish straight.

Renault are also set to bring back KERS as they think it will be worth around 0.25s per lap, which is a lot if they are right.

derek_m

10-09-2009, 11:34

Well since I dont see it mentioned in any of the other F1 threads so far (and since they should really be left to die at this stage) it may as well go here.

Very interesting Autosport piece on the Renault nonsense yesterday: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78446

*IF* that story is true (and since Renault/Piquet are very silent just now we've no way to know) Renault are in it up to their eyeballs.

Piquets story is that he was told to do it by the team (ie Flav & Symonds).
Renaults story seems to be that it was all Piquets idea - but that they were aware of it before the race.

Either way, if as suggested the telemetry from Piquets car shows something suspicious then Renault arent going to get away with this one.

Who said what to who doesnt really matter too much: even if Piquet suggested it the right thing to do was fire him before the race, report it to the FIA & race with 1 car. Not like it would cost them points :lol:

Personally Im quite happy with the way this is looking so far: its about time Flav made his exit from F1 (if half the stories about him are even half-true ...) and hes going to need a miracle to escape from this unharmed.

Semps

10-09-2009, 11:46

Funny, I was going to say the same thing. Quite how renault (symonds and Flav) think they can get out of it by saying piquet came up with the idea. They still knoew about it and did nothing to stop it.

Dont really want to see yet another manufacturer leave the sport though! :(

The Bear

10-09-2009, 11:49

I'd like to see Briatore taken down a peg or two though, preferably without seeing Renault go.

Semps

10-09-2009, 12:01

Id vote for that :thumbs:

derek_m

10-09-2009, 16:01

Santander to be the "main" sponsor of Ferrari in the future. Ignoring the obvious Alonso issue does that mean the last of the tobacco sponsors will finally be out of F1?

Back to Renault: the FIA are leaking like a sieve. http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21798.html has Piquets statement in full, matches the comments attributed to him from yesterdays Autosport piece.

Mr M0by

10-09-2009, 18:28

Just back from the track. Got to walk the pitlane and photo some of the drivers or get autographs. I'll upload when i get home on tuesday.

Dick Long

10-09-2009, 19:18

Quite how renault (symonds and Flav) think they can get out of it by saying piquet came up with the idea. They still knoew about it and did nothing to stop it.

Yep and just why on earth would a newbie driver eager to race and show the world what he can do, come up with an idea to put himself out of the race asap (thus making himself look a total drongo) so his team-mate could fiddle a win ???

Just what are Flav and co smoking?? :eek:

fattyboombatty

10-09-2009, 19:19

statto

10-09-2009, 19:28

amazing. :eek: any chance alonso didn't know about this? i imagine he's annoyed he didn't get the opportunity to blackmail renault.

:lol:

Renault look stuffed TBH. I can't imagine Alonso knew - it would mean the end of his F1 career surely?

The Bear

11-09-2009, 10:30

It's the end of Piquet's F1 career too. I'm sure the FIA would probably punish him for deliberately causing an accident, no matter what the extenuating circumstances of his state of mind, as much as they'd punish Flav and Pat Symonds for conspiring to cause one.

Plus no team is likely to employ him ever again now, possibly even in lower series as well.

sidebog7

11-09-2009, 10:51

Sammy709Sony930

11-09-2009, 10:59

Friday 11
First practice: 0900-1030
Second practice: 1300-1430

Saturday 12
Third practice: 1000-1100
Qualifying: 1300

Sunday 13
Race: 1400

So Fisi's first race in a Ferrari, and Liuzzi takes over at Force India.

Monza is supposedly a very good KERS track so I expect a good result for Ferrari and probably a fairly aggressive strategy from them.

KERS is apparently going to be mainly used coming out of the long last corner (Parabolica), and then again immediately after crossing the line to give the maximum amount of benefit on the long start/finish straight.

Renault are also set to bring back KERS as they think it will be worth around 0.25s per lap, which is a lot if they are right.

Are these times local times or BST?

i.e. Does the race really start at 2pm on BBC1??

SPB

11-09-2009, 11:07

Are these times local times or BST?

i.e. Does the race really start at 2pm on BBC1??

I think the race start time is a typo. From formula1.com, BST:

FRI Practice 2 13:00
SAT Practice 10:00
SAT Qualifying 13:00
SUN Race 13:00

SPB

11-09-2009, 11:12

It's all heating up. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78478

It is believed that Piquet had an immunity agreement (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/piquet-briatore-ordered-me-to-crash-1785278.html) but I agree his career is over.

I can't see how piquet is ever going to be able to prove anything. Surely it's all circumstantial in regards to the crash.

I wonder/speculate if Big and little Piquet politely asked Renault to keep Piquet Jr in the car in exchange for them keeping quiet over the alleged crash on purpose.

derek_m

11-09-2009, 11:25

I can't see how piquet is ever going to be able to prove anything. Surely it's all circumstantial in regards to the crash.Unusual radio chatter + telemetry from his car + noone else having a convincing argument to explain those things away = enough.

We'll see what happens

I wonder/speculate if Big and little Piquet politely asked Renault to keep Piquet Jr in the car in exchange for them keeping quiet over the alleged crash on purpose.No prizes there since Renault/Flav are suing the Piquets for blackmail.

Cant help feeling any legal action is a desperate attempt to stall (potentially for years) the FIA investigation and any penalties they may choose to apply.

The Bear

11-09-2009, 12:09

I think the race start time is a typo. From formula1.com, BST:

FRI Practice 2 13:00
SAT Practice 10:00
SAT Qualifying 13:00
SUN Race 13:00
Yes sorry it's 1300 BST.

Dick Long

11-09-2009, 15:53

After today's practice Fisi might be wondering if his team swap was such a great idea :thinking:

Also has Button finally given up do you reckon?

rbullivant

11-09-2009, 17:32

After today's practice Fisi might be wondering if his team swap was such a great idea :thinking:

Also has Button finally given up do you reckon?

I don't know, i don't see why he should give up to be honest. There are five races left, to be honest I can see him personally picking up another 10 points by limping home in the lower reaches of the points.

I don't consider Rubens to be a credible threat to his world championship.

Kimi looks to be the man likely to win a few races but he won't overhaul Button. Force India also look strong for some reason, as do Mclaren - all to Buttons favour.

JB hasn't picked up serious points for five races, and still has a healthy margin.

You're basically looking for Vettel or Webber as the only serious title contenders, perhaps if they let one driver go for the title they could do it but I imagine both fancy themselves as World Champion. However I'm not convinced they'll pick up enough points.

I can see Jenson Button limping to the title, thanks mostly to improvements to Ferrari and other teams robbing points from Red Bull.

To be honest I don't think he deserves it, he's basically shown that he's faster than Rubens and that by some fluke he had the ultimate car for a while. He hasn't raced like a champion in the recent races - its his championship to lose

R

MaxNutter

11-09-2009, 18:13

if nobody else steps up, Button deserves to win the championship; he's won far more races than anybody else, so why doesn't he deserve it?

maybe it's just a ****** up season ... usually there's more than one driver who can get his **** together ... most consistent driver of the season has got to be Rosberg; just a pity his car hasn't been more competitive ...

DanWilde1966

11-09-2009, 18:58

I don't know, i don't see why he should give up to be honest. There are five races left, to be honest I can see him personally picking up another 10 points by limping home in the lower reaches of the points.

I don't consider Rubens to be a credible threat to his world championship.

Kimi looks to be the man likely to win a few races but he won't overhaul Button. Force India also look strong for some reason, as do Mclaren - all to Buttons favour.

JB hasn't picked up serious points for five races, and still has a healthy margin.

You're basically looking for Vettel or Webber as the only serious title contenders, perhaps if they let one driver go for the title they could do it but I imagine both fancy themselves as World Champion. However I'm not convinced they'll pick up enough points.

I can see Jenson Button limping to the title, thanks mostly to improvements to Ferrari and other teams robbing points from Red Bull.

To be honest I don't think he deserves it, he's basically shown that he's faster than Rubens and that by some fluke he had the ultimate car for a while. He hasn't raced like a champion in the recent races - its his championship to lose

RWhat he said.

RonnyJ

11-09-2009, 19:13

Echoing most of the above, all Button's shown that he's faster than Rubens when there's no pressure and he's happy with his car (unlike 2008), but Rubens has started to outclass him recently when the title pressure is on.

Someone is going to fall over the winning line first I think, likely Button, but I just hope I'm wrong, and we see someone 'raise their game'. My feeling is that Webber deserves it more than Button and Vettel, but of course those six wins for Button when he had little pressure and a dominant car are going to take a lot of clawing back.

Sammy709Sony930

11-09-2009, 19:14

Do ya think Mad Max is hell bent on getting revenge on Flavio for the grief earlier in the season with the proposed breakaway?

statto

11-09-2009, 19:34

If Button wins it then he will have deserved it. OK, he had a superior car for six or seven races, but so did Barrichello. Arguably Red Bull have had the best car for four or five races, yet they're still at arms length from Button.

Semps

11-09-2009, 22:16

Agree with the few above. If Button wins it, he'll be the best so will deserve it.

Although he had the superior car for the first few races, he certainly raced well against the red bull after.

Hopefully he'll have a few good races now and put a bit of daylight between him and the others

The Bear

12-09-2009, 10:41

So Sutil fastest again in final practice. Could it be another good weekend for Force India?

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:23.336 21
2. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:23.404 + 0.068 21
3. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:23.490 + 0.154 18
4. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:23.575 + 0.239 20
5. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:23.633 + 0.297 18
6. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:23.803 + 0.467 20
7. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:23.849 + 0.513 21
8. Alonso Renault (B) 1:23.915 + 0.579 17
9. Glock Toyota (B) 1:23.959 + 0.623 21
10. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:23.996 + 0.660 18
11. Grosjean Renault (B) 1:24.197 + 0.861 15
12. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:24.302 + 0.966 20
13. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:24.326 + 0.990 17
14. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:24.392 + 1.056 20
15. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:24.572 + 1.236 23
16. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:24.621 + 1.285 21
17. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.154 + 1.818 13
18. Vettel Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:25.244 + 1.908 16
19. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:25.791 + 2.455 10
20. Fisichella Ferrari (B) 1:25.951 + 2.615 10

I've also just noticed that the BBC have updated their 'Circuit Guides'. It's pretty good now with an actual video of a lap commentated by Mark Webber, plus the graphical overlays with throttle/brake/steering angle/G-Force. Worth a look.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/circuit_guide/default.stm?circuitID=13&moduleID=m3#top

The Bear

12-09-2009, 10:43

Briatore takes things personal:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78532

Briatore believes that the race-fix claims levelled at him and his team, which he has denied and is taking legal action against the Piquets over, follows a pattern of besmirching that Piquet Sr carried throughout his F1 career.

One of his most famous outbursts came in a magazine interview when he was still driving, when the three-time champion accused Ayrton Senna of being gay and said that Nigel Mansell's wife was 'ugly'. Those remarks caused outrage at the time.

"We know Nelson's story, he's always run down everyone," explained Briatore at Monza. "Nelson drove for me and... Nelson is blackmailing, and that's what we have brought.

"It's very tough for Renault to have had these put downs from Nelsinho and from Piquet Sr, but then we know Piquet Sr. He has always denigrated everyone - starting from [Ayrton] Senna, to Mansell's wife, to everyone. That's what Piquet Sr has always done. I know him well because he raced for us, I know Sr better than Jr."

Briatore has also said that the complaints from Piquet Jr extended beyond pure racing terms - as he revealed he was also accused by the Brazilian of wrecking friendships he had.

"He [Nelsinho] has also heavily accused me of breaking his relationship with a friend of his. I don't want to be accused unfairly, so I want to say that I did it because Nelsinho's father asked me to," explained Briatore.

"Nelsinho used to live with this gentleman: the nature of their relationship is unknown. His father was very worried about the relationship Nelsinho used to have with this 50-year-old man. They used to live together, and his father asked me to intervene.

"I made this gentleman not come to races anymore, and I made Nelsinho move from Oxford to London in a building where I live, in order to keep him under control.

"I was asked to by his father, and now Nelsinho accuses me of having even taken his friends away from him - I don't know what kind of friends these are, but he accuses me of that."

dannywonderful

12-09-2009, 10:59

Briatore takes things personal:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78532

So, Briatore is implying Piquet Jr is gay then. What an ugly mess.

evilsly

12-09-2009, 13:25

so Hamilton on pole, but will he be allowed to keep it.

seemed to be a clear block in the earlier qualifying session.

derek_m

12-09-2009, 14:05

Poor Fisichella. He made the right decision to go to Ferrari, no doubt about it, but this weekend was never going to be easy for him.

BBC guys were as hopeless as ever: yet another failure to read the timing graphics from Brundle :help: EJ being, well, just EJ. His attention whoring is getting way out of hand.

Briatore takes things personalNah, hes just throwing out the usual smoke & mirrors.

Hes trying desperately to get the focus of the stories about this onto Piquet (Jr or Snr) rather than Renault.

Observant viewers/readers will note that he has said absolutely nothing that indicates Renault have handled things properly. Fairly clearly they havent: even if as they claim the Piquets are nasty evil scum who tried to blackmail the good honest people of Renault its still been mishandled. Their first (and indeed only) reaction to that should have been to contact the FIA.

Thats enough reason to expect harsh penalties in 10 days time. Anyone care to bet on whether we'll see Renault on the grid in Singapore?
so Hamilton on pole, but will he be allowed to keep it.

seemed to be a clear block in the earlier qualifying session.:lol:

This is why the BBCs hopeless commentary is a problem: it makes people believe utter nonsense ;)

He came out of the pits, stayed off the racing line and out of the way. What more could he have done other than stop on the circuit to get out of the way?

**** happens ;)

derek_m

12-09-2009, 16:54

Went looking for the fuel weight numbers: strangely it only turned up on the FIAs own site so far: http://fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/ita09_weights.pdf

Amusingly timestamped in the future, I thought this shouldve been published long ago.

Either way nothing surprising, 1st 3 to be 2 stopping, rest 1 stopping as was obvious to most people (although not Ted Kravitz, heh) from watching quali.

Not quite sure what Renault are up to, Alonso will have to stop 2-3 laps or so before the first of the other 1 stoppers. Hedging their bets incase it rains?

fattyboombatty

12-09-2009, 17:15

So, Briatore is implying Piquet Jr is gay then. What an ugly mess.

Well, it's said one in ten are gay, 20 F1 drivers, so.....

I reckon kubica is the other one.:lol:

RonnyJ

12-09-2009, 18:35

Thats enough reason to expect harsh penalties in 10 days time. Anyone care to bet on whether we'll see Renault on the grid in Singapore?Even if Renault are allowed to turn up, not sure if Symonds or Flavio will - seen a fair bit of debate over whether Singapore would consider the alleged actions enough to investigate.

derek_m

13-09-2009, 10:48

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78580 - Interview with Patrick Head about the Renault/Singapore nonsense.

For the most part its exactly what youd expect him to be saying, but it gets very interesting at the end: "I became aware of a journalist who told me that he was told about it by Nelson Piquet 15 minutes after the race. It's a difficult one. If a journalist was told that by a driver he should have said: 'look, stop. If you carry on with this I will have to...'

Morton

13-09-2009, 11:42

All the talk about Button deserving the title or not, if he were to win:

Last year Hamilton won the title with 5 race wins, Massa had 6, all spread across the year. Jenson had his wins in one go at the start of the year so then when he had the series of bad weekends, the negative is considered over a longer period and people question him more.

The season long trend is likely to be the same a previous years, just with blocks of race success/failure rather than up-down-up-down peformance.

For me, if he doesn't win another race (although I hope he does) and the other guys still can't overhaul him, he will be a deserving champion.

RonnyJ

13-09-2009, 12:52

Wouldn't mind seeing Hamilton win, but if Barrichello can win, and Hamilton splits the Brawn's, it'd make the next races even more interesting.

HBK757

13-09-2009, 13:20

Hamilton spins out on the last lap and misses out on 3rd.

ed_mcl

13-09-2009, 13:20

:lol:

How gutting must that be, on the last lap!

Arthur Fowler

13-09-2009, 13:22

Oh dear Lewis.

Great result for the Brawns :clap:

Down to a two horse race.

evilsly

13-09-2009, 13:23

another fantastic performance from Force India, they really are up there with the front runners now.

downhillbiker

13-09-2009, 13:31

Hamilton's a ******* numpty for doing that... beginning to look like it's going to be Button vs. Barichello now.

ed_mcl

13-09-2009, 13:34

Hamilton's a ******* numpty for doing that... beginning to look like it's going to be Button vs. Barichello now

I don't think there's any question of it being anything other than really.

Raigmore

13-09-2009, 13:51

Hamilton spins out on the last lap and misses out on 3rd.
:thumbs::thumbs: Serves the arrogant git right. Good for the Brawns. The old guy Barichello has a slim chance of winning the divers' championship in his final F1 year.

GordonJ

13-09-2009, 13:58

Conspiracy theory: Looks like they're already setting up a gearbox failure for Reubens.

Bearhorn

13-09-2009, 15:15

:lol: Wally of the race award. Not sure quite what he was hoping to achieve with half a lap left and on course for a solid podium finish. Button had the measure of him for the last ten laps or so and Raikkonen was miles behind. Maybe he should go and have a word with his buddy Adrian Sutil about how to chase down a car and still finish the race. The tifosi must have absolutely loved that.

MaxNutter

13-09-2009, 19:54

i'm not a Lewis fan, but i can see what he was doing; he's not a racer, he's going to win anything this season, so he was pushing it to the max ...

Andrew70

14-09-2009, 00:56

Well, it's said one in ten are gay, 20 F1 drivers, so.....

I reckon kubica is the other one.:lol:
Absolutely nothing to base it on other than a rather poorly performing gaydar, but if anyone had asked me to name the F1 driver I most suspected of being open to a bit of man love, it would have been Nick Heidfeld.
Trouble is, he's bearded and anything more than a bit of stubble is a deal breaker for me :(

Someone texted in to the F1 forum after the race and asked if Red Bull were considering changing Vettel's engine twice during the Singapore GP, taking a 20 place grid demotion and pocketing two fresh engines.
Christian Horner (who was was being interviewed at the time) waffled a bit but didn't say no.

Sammy709Sony930

14-09-2009, 07:19

Surprised no-one has mentioned the brunette with the bottle of champers, comedy gold when Sutil was asked "Do you know her?". Sutil - "Not yet!!!":n0rty:

She was hanging around the bit where the drivers get interviewed after the race too.

derek_m

15-09-2009, 09:20

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78647

Is it possible to read that and still keep an open mind regarding Renaults guilt?

Radiohead

15-09-2009, 09:21

Lotus to return to F1 next season.

philatio

15-09-2009, 11:16

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78647

Is it possible to read that and still keep an open mind regarding Renaults guilt?

Holy **** !

That's quite open & shut then isn't it. Surely the end of Renault in F1.

Radiohead

15-09-2009, 11:17

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78647

Is it possible to read that and still keep an open mind regarding Renaults guilt?

I read that as - 'it was Flavio's idea'

philatio

15-09-2009, 11:47

I feel a bit sorry for Piquet Jr.

Yeah.. he wasn't the best driver in the world.. but with Flavio on one side and his dad on the other. Talk about being surrounded by nutters.

But like Brundle said at the weekend.. he's a grown man. Whatever the pressures or outcomes he should have just stood up and said 'no, I'm not doing that'.

SPB

15-09-2009, 12:31

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78647

Is it possible to read that and still keep an open mind regarding Renaults guilt?

Seems to me like the lawyers have told him not to answer anything, presumably to avoid prejudicing the blackmail case and further legal action/appeal regarding any sanctions the FIA impose.

The Bear

15-09-2009, 14:22

derek_m

15-09-2009, 16:26

Lotus to return to F1 next season.Return?

Its a Malaysian team (essentially a Proton team) that happens to have bought the rights to the Lotus name. Theres no other connection to the "old" Lotus. I suppose it does make for a better team name than Manor - marginally :)

Amusing to see theyve taken on Mike Gascoyne, wonder if he'll still be there by the start of the season. Seems as time passes its taking less & less time before teams tire of him.

Seems to me like the lawyers have told him not to answer anything, presumably to avoid prejudicing the blackmail case and further legal action/appeal regarding any sanctions the FIA impose.Right, but he answered the most important question (in my eyes) very clearly: he was aware of the suggestion of fixing the race before the race and (for reasons we can only guess at) didnt consider this worthy reporting to the FIA.

That alone is risking harsh penalties.

RonnyJ

15-09-2009, 17:27

Sammy709Sony930

15-09-2009, 19:52

With them offering Symonds immunity if he 'fesses up, it sounds to me like the FIA are trying to isolate Briatore in the charges.

Probably Mosely's idea since they don't like each other. He managed to get rid of Ron Dennis eventually, I'm sure he'd like one of his final FIA actions to be getting rid of Briatore too.

During the carry one earlier this year with the proposed breakaway, Max max named Flav as the ringleader, so I'd be 100% sure this is his revenge mission! Of course Pat Symonds will get off, Max only wants the big fish.

Mr M0by

15-09-2009, 21:29

There's also some other damning information leaked out there, such as telemetry graphs, and transcripts of conversations between engineers, Symonds and Piquet.

I'm not sure whether I agree or not on the immunity offer for Symonds though - does seem rather blatantly an attempt to try to get something more concrete on Flavio.

EDIT: The Times have now picked it up:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6834552.ece

I don't agree with the immunity of either Nelson or Pat personally, more so that they've both been offered it as a means to 'hang' Flavio. I'd recommend signing up to Racefax.com, if even only for the 30 day free usage, I had all the above information emailed to me in an article from them/him on Saturday. Makes me wonder what happened to the FIA's supposed thorough investigation of where these leaks where coming from.
This affair is indeed every bit as serious an offence as the McLaren spying situation, arguably more so and if found to be true, worthy of suspension from F1. Obviously Pat & Flav should get a kickin' but it riles me that it appears Piquet is being thanked for coming forward. I don't know if huntsuk works at the Renault factory now, he stopped posting in these threads a couple of years ago but regardless why should people in his position be fearing for their livelyhoods whilst Piquet Jr is paraded as some glorious deliverer of truth? He crashes, cheats other teams (I seem to recall Massa losing out most of all on lap 17), keeps quiet for 12 months, in which case almost certainly threatens to reveal all if he is sacked, and then finally does so when it's clear he is to get the 'chop' & is free to return to race next season? Hopefully no serious racing team would go near him again.

RonnyJ

15-09-2009, 22:28

With Piquet, it depends if you separate his past action (allegedly agreeing to crash) from his current action (now coming forward). We may be critical of him actually crashing, but there's nothing much wrong with him admitting it. If a team asked a driver to do a dangerous act like that, there really should be sanctions.

I saw the Racefax coverage a few days ago too, was my source - hadn't heard about them before then.

SPB

15-09-2009, 22:37

Right, but he answered the most important question (in my eyes) very clearly: he was aware of the suggestion of fixing the race before the race and (for reasons we can only guess at) didnt consider this worthy reporting to the FIA.

Fair point, I didn't really consider that aspect!

Semps

16-09-2009, 11:17

Fav and symonds have left Renault! Renault will not dispute the charge in the hearing next week!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78668

johnsy

16-09-2009, 11:20

Yay! Flav's gone! Their defence of the allegations seemed to tumble like a house of cards, especially once Symonds started being asked questions...

statto

16-09-2009, 11:24

I seem to recall Massa losing out most of all on lap 17.

I can't remember TBH, but if that is the case it effectively cost him the drivers championship didn't it?

derek_m

16-09-2009, 11:30

The Flav has left the building :clap:

philatio

16-09-2009, 11:33

Woah! :)

Do we think Renault are going to be kicked out of this season then? (and effectively out of F1 altogether) or will Flav & PS going be enough to let Renault stay in?

Sammy709Sony930

16-09-2009, 11:45

Woah! :)

Do we think Renault are going to be kicked out of this season then? (and effectively out of F1 altogether) or will Flav & PS going be enough to let Renault stay in?

Max only wanted Flav.

Renault leaving F1 would be a disaster.

njc

16-09-2009, 11:54

Amazing.

Little point in punishing the team as it'll put 400 completely innocent people out of work. The trick is to a) remove those directly responsible for this happening b) put in place a punishment that stops anyone even thinking about doing it another time - a bit like removing Schumacher from the championship results after he tried to punt Villenuve off the track.

Somehow not surprised that Flav was involved, amazed that Symonds was. A completely stupid thing to orchestrate, given the potential consequences to those involved (and I don't mean punishments, I mean putting people in danger deliberately).

Ds3

16-09-2009, 12:03

Incredible, all the recent issues in F1 pretty much disappear in comparison to this. What a ridiculous thing to try and get away with. They've changed the outcome of a whole years worth of Forumala 1, imagine how this will make the other drivers feel, never mind all those punters that had money on Massa winning. Shockng stuff.

DanWilde1966

16-09-2009, 12:13

Spectacular and successful "cold" revenge from Piquet, though!

kungfuman

16-09-2009, 12:23

I can't remember TBH, but if that is the case it effectively cost him the drivers championship didn't it?

He was on pole and was leading the race until PK's crash which meant he had to pit during the safety car period and then Ferrari messed up his pit stop and he came out last.

lovegroova

16-09-2009, 12:39

He was on pole and was leading the race until PK's crash which meant he had to pit during the safety car period and then Ferrari messed up his pit stop and he came out last.

Really interesting, but Ferrari I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say it cost him the championship. The pit stop could have been messed up anyway (and it wasn't the only time it happened last year).

What's also really interesting, looking at the live timing archive, is that the Red Bulls (powered by Renault) also pitted before the safety car came in. http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/801/

rbullivant

16-09-2009, 12:49

What will happen to Alonso? I can't really see much else but a team ban or I suppose a monster fine. However surely Alonso was complicit in some way?

R

derek_m

16-09-2009, 12:51

Renault leaving F1 would be a disaster.How so?

Max doesnt give a damn for manufacturers.
He doesnt need them to make up the grid: the new teams see to that. If anything he has 1 team too many ...
They do nothing to contribute to making the championship interesting.
Arguably he doesnt need them as an engine provider either: Cosworth are happy to supply as many teams as are interested - thanks to the deal he put together.

The "rogue employee" defence didnt work for McLaren & wont work for Renault: race fixing has to be seen to be taken seriously.

fattyboombatty

16-09-2009, 13:31

christ almighty! mad max is cleaning house before he leaves.

dco_chris

16-09-2009, 13:39

The "rogue employee" defence didnt work for McLaren & wont work for Renault: race fixing has to be seen to be taken seriously.

Agreed, they can't be soft about this without giving the message that race fixing and endangering your drivers is fine, just as long as someone quits when you are caught.

Sammy709Sony930

16-09-2009, 13:42

How so?

Max doesnt give a damn for manufacturers.
He doesnt need them to make up the grid: the new teams see to that. If anything he has 1 team too many ...
They do nothing to contribute to making the championship interesting.
Arguably he doesnt need them as an engine provider either: Cosworth are happy to supply as many teams as are interested - thanks to the deal he put together.

The "rogue employee" defence didnt work for McLaren & wont work for Renault: race fixing has to be seen to be taken seriously.

Fair points.

Just with BMW pulling out, Toyota's F1 future uncertain, I can't see throwing the book at Renault would be good for F1.

Not great news for the UK employees either - aka hunts1uk

What about Alonso, will he be implicated too?

SPB

16-09-2009, 13:44

Very suprised at this.

Speculation: Maybe the FIA have cut Renault a deal off the record

Ds3

16-09-2009, 13:47

Wouldn't suprise me either although maybe not quite cutting a proper deal.

More likely someone had a quiet word in Renault's ear just to make it clear that if those involved aren't out before Monday's hearing they should start packing their F1 bags.

DanWilde1966

16-09-2009, 13:58

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=46901

"In an apparent attempt to isolate Briatore, the FIA has offered Symonds immunity from punishment at the WMSC hearing in return for full disclosure of the facts pertaining to the Singapore incident – having promised the same to Piquet before the Brazilian made his statement."

Arthur Fowler

16-09-2009, 14:28

Interesting reading our thread from Singapore last year:

http://www.thedvdforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=518939

Especially post #155 (and some earlier from Mr Moby) :eek:

Scruffy the Janitor

16-09-2009, 14:51

Just back from Monza. I am sleepy and my head hurts - was a great atmosphere and being among the Tifosi when Hamilton crashed on the last lap will stay with me for a long time.

As will invading the track at the end of the race. Will post piccies later.

derek_m

16-09-2009, 16:25

[QUOTE=Sammy709Sony930;8788911]Just with BMW pulling out, Toyota's F1 future uncertain, I can't see throwing the book at Renault would be good for F1.Toyota arent going anywhere, just the size of their budget for 2010 wont be confirmed until the end of the year. They signed the new Concorde agreement, they are contracted in for 3 years. BMW didnt ...

What about Alonso, will he be implicated too?Nothing suggests that more than 3 people were aware of this. Noone has anything to gain by saying anything to implicate others (even if more were involved). Cant imagine he'll be involved in any way.

Unless of course you count the very real chance of him not having a car/team for Singapore in 10 days time ...

Very suprised at this.Why? What option did Renault have?

With every document that leaked out (full? set linked from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1213688/REVEALED-The-dossiers-evidence-going-Nelson-Piquet-crash-gate-hearing.html - 15 separate PDFs including statements & brain-melting telemetry graphs) their possible defences became less & less credible.

I really dont see that they had any other option.

Browsing through the transcript (document 5 in link above) of the pitwall radio chatter is highly recommended. Theres really nothing incriminating in it, however every time Briatore opens his mouth its to say something stupid ;) Shame (for the sake of curiosity) that they were having technical problems during the early part of that race, wouldve been interesting to see what sort of numbers their "strategy computer" was spitting out.

Xeon007

16-09-2009, 19:00

What's going to happen to Flav's drivers? (i.e. the ones he manages)

DanWilde1966

17-09-2009, 07:58

Richard Williams' piece in today's Guardian reads almost like Briatore's obituary: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/sep/17/flavio-briatore-renault-formula-one

Andrew70

17-09-2009, 10:17

[quote]Nothing suggests that more than 3 people were aware of this. Noone has anything to gain by saying anything to implicate others (even if more were involved). Cant imagine he'll be involved in any way.
Piquet Snr said some time ago that Alonso was fully aware of the plan and so far, all the things that father and son have said seem to be being confirmed.

I'm a bit torn by Briatore's exit. I never liked the man and I don't think some his shady ways were always good for the sport, but he had been the most vocal of the prominent F1 figures about getting the show improved for the casual fan and re-engaging the audience. I think he had a much more realistic grasp of the issue than someone like Montezemolo who is obsessed with getting three cars on the grid just so he can run Michael again.
Until they do something about ticket prices that rival the cost of a cheap Spanish holiday or merchandising prices like £20 for a cap and £30 for a T-shirt, then they'll have to get used to half empty grandstands and dwindling interest.

DVDWotcha

17-09-2009, 13:43

[QUOTE=derek_m;8789117]
Piquet Snr said some time ago that Alonso was fully aware of the plan and so far, all the things that father and son have said seem to be being confirmed.

I'm a bit torn by Briatore's exit. I never liked the man and I don't think some his shady ways were always good for the sport, but he had been the most vocal of the prominent F1 figures about getting the show improved for the casual fan and re-engaging the audience. I think he had a much more realistic grasp of the issue than someone like Montezemolo who is obsessed with getting three cars on the grid just so he can run Michael again.
Until they do something about ticket prices that rival the cost of a cheap Spanish holiday or merchandising prices like £20 for a cap and £30 for a T-shirt, then they'll have to get used to half empty grandstands and dwindling interest.

It could still be the case that NPJ suggested the whole thing in the first place, but clearly the evidence would suggest Symmonds and Briatore were complicit. NPJ is screwed regardless just for going through with it.

slideymoo

17-09-2009, 16:46

It's amusing how almost everything questionable always seems to involve alonso :)

Bapapapa

17-09-2009, 16:52

Interesting reading our thread from Singapore last year:

http://www.thedvdforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=518939

Especially post #155 (and some earlier from Mr Moby) :eek: Wow! A couple of Nostradamuses in that thread..

Now that Alonso has pitted, do Renault instruct Piquet to bring out the safety car? :lol:Renault did a blinder.

1. Send out Alonso with little fuel and the worst tyres.

2. Bring him in at lap 12 when knowone else will be coming in, fuel him up and change to the better tyre.

3. Get team partner to crash on lap 13 and get the safety car out.

It was great strategy that paid off :thumbs::nuts::suspect::lol:

17-09-2009, 17:28

Wow! A couple of Nostradamuses in that thread..

:nuts::suspect::lol:

See you guys should take note of my ramblings :D

Mr M0by

17-09-2009, 19:35

[QUOTE=derek_m;8789117]
Piquet Snr said some time ago that Alonso was fully aware of the plan and so far, all the things that father and son have said seem to be being confirmed.

And Snr has said a hell of a lot of things in his time, plenty of it way off mark. The key is that Jnr didn't remotely infer that Alonso knew when he was interviewed during the investigation. Snr is sounding off again, not that I've ever read that even he said such a thing mind you.

statto

17-09-2009, 19:45

And Snr has said a hell of a lot of things in his time, plenty of it way off mark. The key is that Jnr didn't remotely infer that Alonso knew when he was interviewed during the investigation. Snr is sounding off again, not that I've ever read that even he said such a thing mind you.

I agree with this. I find it hard to believe that Alonso would have touched this with a barge pole. It's not like there was a championship at stake (and even if there was I don't think he'd have had anything to do with it).

The Bear

17-09-2009, 20:10

Alonso has previous form of not being averse to playing along with underhand shenanigans though - Him and De La Rosa receiving Ferrari insider info at McLaren springs to mind.

RonnyJ

17-09-2009, 20:15

I have to assume Alonso didn't know about it, but it's likely that he had a few doubts in his mind afterwards, but didn't raise them.

I'd be interested in knowing what happened when the engineers looked at the telemetry of the crash though, presumably that would be routine afterwards - I assume they'd be able to tell it was deliberate, and if so, kept quiet, though I couldn't blame them for that.

fattyboombatty

18-09-2009, 12:44

even if there was I don't think he'd have had anything to do with it).

well, that's just plain wrong. alonso did the exact same thing to ron dennis, except dennis callesd his bluff to going to mad max and fessing up.

alonso knew and yet again the slimy git has walked off scot free.:oh-hum:

i tell you, if this sport is ever going to turn itself around it has to elect ari vatenen or the sleaze will just roll on and on. the toad will no doubt win as he has the support of max and his despicable cronies

Ds3

21-09-2009, 09:42

So, we should be finding out the result of the FIA hearing at some point today. What's everyone's thought on a suitable punishment for Renault?

The fact that Flav & Symonds have gone, along with Renault not contesting the accusations, will certainly go in their favour but they can't get away from the seriousness of race fixing.

I believe a substantial fine and having all points scored in 2008 withdrawn from the record would be suitable. Kicking them out of 2009 would be a little extreme imo given that the incident happened in 2008, and the guilty parties have now left the team.

It will be very interesting to see if anything comes to light about Alonso being aware - as others have said he must have has his suspicions given the unusual tactics and convenience of the crash.

I also disagree with the fact PK has been given immunity, imo he still committed the crime and should be punished, although the punishment should be reduced to reflect the fact he came forward. Maybe a fine calculated as a % of his 2008 wages?

Radiohead

21-09-2009, 09:45

statto

21-09-2009, 09:51

well, that's just plain wrong. alonso did the exact same thing to ron dennis, except dennis callesd his bluff to going to mad max and fessing up.

Industrial espionage and/or blackmail is massively different from getting someone to deliberately have a high speed crash in an F1 car.

rbullivant

21-09-2009, 10:12

I would imagine that they'll have all the constructors points from this year wiped so they finish last, nothing happens to the drivers. They may take the win off Alonso which seems fair, but I'm not sure if they will as he is an innocent party (presumably).

They'll be a whopping fine I'm sure (where does that money go out of interest?).

Then again, its a very serious offence and they could kick them out the championship but then they would lose Renault out of F1

R

Ds3

21-09-2009, 10:18

Personally I'd like to see them kicked out.

But, with my sensible head on that just means that lots of people lose their jobs because an Italian multi-millionaire decided to act like a tool.

My thoughts exactly, if it wasn't for all the innocent parties involved then kicking them out, or at least a ban for the 2010 season would be perfectly reasonable.

It's unfortunate there would be so much collateral damage from what would be the most appropriate punishment.

Andrew70

21-09-2009, 10:48

Industrial espionage and/or blackmail is massively different from getting someone to deliberately have a high speed crash in an F1 car.

"Mosley also went on to explain why he and the FIA saw race fixing as "one degree worse than cheating".

He said: "If you're a cyclist and you take dope, that's cheating. If you bribe the other cyclists, or you get somebody to have a crash, so the yellow jersey guy crashes, that's more serious.

"Then if it puts human life at risk, whether it's the spectators, the marshals or the drivers, then it's more serious again."

I believe a substantial fine and having all points scored in 2008 withdrawn from the record would be suitable. Kicking them out of 2009 would be a little extreme imo given that the incident happened in 2008, and the guilty parties have now left the team.

Mosley also told reporters that it was now too late to change the result of the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix, whatever the outcome of the case, but he confirmed that if found guilty, Renault could be expelled from the world championship.

Ds3

21-09-2009, 11:06

That comment is a bit vague really, yes of course you can't change the result of the Singapore Grand Prix itself, as that would have an impact on the subsequent races and ultimately the championship.

However, it would be easy enough to declare all Renault's 2008 points (and potentially Alonso's) null and void, putting them in to last place in the result standings whilst leaving all other contenders in their respective places.

Alternatively, they could lose all 2009 points however given that they're currently 8th and not likely to progress any further that's hardly much of a punishment.

Radiohead

21-09-2009, 12:19

2 year ban, suspended.

The FIA has also stated that former team principal Flavio Briatore will face a lifetime ban from involvement in any of its series - and for anyone involved with him.

5 year ban for Symonds.

johnsy

21-09-2009, 12:24

Ds3

21-09-2009, 12:29

movaado

21-09-2009, 12:32

Very lack-lustre compared to what they did to McLaren.

SPB

21-09-2009, 12:33

Ridiculously light sentence IMHO, I know the argument is that three people cheating doesn't make a corrupt team but come on. Look what McLaren got for spygate. This is as serious as that in my eyes.

Personally I think it a shame Flav and Denis have been ousted from F1. Mosely gets 'em in the end doesn't he.

Bish

21-09-2009, 12:36

and I thought Max wanted to come down hard on this one?
The fact that Flav is out is the main thing for Max. I've never liked Flav either, should kick him out of the footy as well :D

Ds3

21-09-2009, 12:39

Some interesting comments in the article though:

[Renault] committed to paying the costs incurred by the FIA in its investigation; and Renault (the parent company, as opposed to Renault F1) committed to making a significant contribution to FIA safety-related projects.

The FIA has also taken tough action against Briatore and Symonds. It has been decided that for an 'unlimited period' the FIA will not sanction any event, championship, cup, trophy, challenge or series involving Briatore in any capacity – or grant any licence to a team or entity that is engaged with Briatore.

The statement added: "It also hereby instructs all officials present at FIA-sanctioned events not to permit Mr. Briatore access to any areas under the FIA's jurisdiction."

Briatore will also not be allowed to manage any drivers in F1, with the FIA stating that it will not renew any Superlicence granted to a driver who is associated with Briatore. At the moment Briatore manages Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber, Heikki Kovalainen, Romain Grosjean in F1.

johnsy

21-09-2009, 12:46

Briatore will also not be allowed to manage any drivers in F1, with the FIA stating that it will not renew any Superlicence granted to a driver who is associated with Briatore. At the moment Briatore manages Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber, Heikki Kovalainen, Romain Grosjean in F1.
Yes, that surprised me too... fingers in plenty of pies. Well, I guess no longer!!
:lol:

bh1

21-09-2009, 12:51

... not to mention Piquet Jr.

Xeon007

21-09-2009, 13:13

reecie

21-09-2009, 13:17

I'm not sure about the sentence - seems a bit of a lack-lustre slap on the wrists. Admittedly Symonds will be out the sport for five years (will he be in demand in 2014 I wonder?) and Briatore presumably out of any FIA activity for good, but other than that, doesn't seem to match other penalties given out over recent years... and I thought Max wanted to come down hard on this one?

Based on listening to R5. The difference with this and Maclaren is that Renault investigated and admitted things straight away where as Maclaren at a corporate level claimed innocence all the way through until caught out. Hence the FIA had a simpler case with Renault and apparently they like that. The sentence given to Briatore (particularly) and Symonds is seen as as much a deterrent to individuals as the fine was to Maclaren as a corporation.

fattyboombatty

21-09-2009, 15:04

Industrial espionage and/or blackmail is massively different from getting someone to deliberately have a high speed crash in an F1 car.

yes, you're right. it's not a reflection on the character of the man, at all.:cuckoo:

bigdave

21-09-2009, 16:47

The fact that Flav is out is the main thing for Max. I've never liked Flav either, should kick him out of the footy as well :D

I thought I read somewhere last week that the leagues 'Fit and proper' test excludes anyone who has been banned by another sports ruling body, have to try and find it

RonnyJ

21-09-2009, 17:05

Have to agree, I'm not particularly impressed with that. In effect it's hardly a punishment at all, as long as they keep their fingers clean for two years (which, lets face it, most teams do anyway) then they'll have got away without being punished.They don't even have to 'keep their fingers clean' - the disqualification would only happen for a "comparable breach".

Basically then, to get disqualified, they'd have to do yet another offence which would normally "merit permanent disqualification from the FIA Formula One World Championship". Effectively then, there's no punishment.

bigdave

21-09-2009, 17:36

I thought I read somewhere last week that the leagues 'Fit and proper' test excludes anyone who has been banned by another sports ruling body, have to try and find it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/q/qpr/8260661.stm

statto

21-09-2009, 18:24

yes, you're right. it's not a reflection on the character of the man, at all.:cuckoo:

It's not "exactly the same thing" either. :cuckoo:

slideymoo

21-09-2009, 20:12

Such a lol decision. Basically a let off for renault and a questionable decision against briatore. They can ban him from fia, but is it even legal to say they wont let a third party participate if they have him as a manager? Though I think it's always been a conflict of interests having someone in that position being able to also be an agent.

Mr Nice

21-09-2009, 21:15

but is it even legal to say they wont let a third party participate if they have him as a manager?In practice though it just means those F1 (and any in the wider motorsport?) drivers with Flavio as a manager will dump him before their licenses need renewal.

stu_69

22-09-2009, 09:29

Independent reporting that Symonds will end up in Nascar pretty soon. He will be in demand but can only work in sports not affiliated by the FIA.

johnsy

22-09-2009, 09:42

Independent reporting that Symonds will end up in Nascar pretty soon. He will be in demand but can only work in sports not affiliated by the FIA.
I initially read this as "afflicted by the FIA"!:lol:

cervaro

22-09-2009, 14:14

Renault should have been hit with a large fine to be consistent with the McLaren case last year. An unspecified large donation to FIA safety campaigns could mean absolutely anything!

Not convinced Alonso wasn't a party to this too, but no proof unfortunately it would seem. Will Ferrari still want someone tainted by such shenanigans and associated with Briatore?

RonnyJ

22-09-2009, 17:26

Based on listening to R5. The difference with this and Maclaren is that Renault investigated and admitted things straight away where as Maclaren at a corporate level claimed innocence all the way through until caught out. Hence the FIA had a simpler case with Renault and apparently they like that. The sentence given to Briatore (particularly) and Symonds is seen as as much a deterrent to individuals as the fine was to Maclaren as a corporation.Not so sure about that justification really - doesn't seem as if they admitted it straight away.

Just over 10 days ago, we had this announcement from Renault:
"However, today the ING Renault F1 Team and its Managing Director Flavio Briatore personally, wish to state that they have commenced criminal proceedings against Nelson Piquet Junior and Nelson Piquet Senior in France concerning the making of false allegations and a related attempt to blackmail the team into allowing Mr Piquet Jnr to drive for the remainder of the 2009 season.That's not really the sort of thing a team that admitted things straight away would be allowing to happen.

Samiad

22-09-2009, 17:32

Independent reporting that Symonds will end up in Nascar pretty soon. He will be in demand but can only work in sports not affiliated by the FIA.

That'll work out nicely for him - no telemetry in NASCAR to be caught out on!

Trolling comment aside (sorry) this kind of scandal is rife in NASCAR... drivers spinning on purpose to force yellows, even drivers throwing nuts and bolts out their window to cause debris cautions! Usually dealt with small fines. Leagues away from F1 (in just about every way!)

22-09-2009, 17:45

Not convinced Alonso wasn't a party to this too, but no proof unfortunately it would seem. Will Ferrari still want someone tainted by such shenanigans and associated with Briatore?

Well they had Schumacher who was hardly whiter than white at times :suspect:

Anyway all teams are at it, Renault just got caught ;)

DanWilde1966

23-09-2009, 11:47

And "Witness X" would be...?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/22/flavio-briatore-legal-action-fia

The Bear

23-09-2009, 12:47

Someone who works at Renault! I'm guessing it would be an engineer.

bigdave

23-09-2009, 13:12

I am guessing Witness-X to be Alonso

DanWilde1966

23-09-2009, 13:59

Indeed. I would be amazed if he didn't know about it, considering the team is built around him.

Renault to STAY in F1: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/23/renault-stay-formula-one

fattyboombatty

23-09-2009, 14:27

Well they had Schumacher who was hardly whiter than white at times :suspect:

Anyway all teams are at it, Renault just got caught ;)

that's exactly. it's not about who's at it, it's about who gets caught. as long as it's seen to be clean F1 teams and the FIA do whatever they want. it must be galling to anyone caught cheating to have the FIA condemn them.

ferrari were in all likelyhood just as guilty as mclaren in the spygate charade. so i really don't think they'll have a problem with alonso joining.