View Full Version : Lost (US) - 5x14 - The Variable (SPOILERS)
cockbongo
30-04-2009, 09:28
Hmm. Not really much that we didn't know already, although the idea that Eloise sent Daniel to the island knowing that he would die is an interesting (and disturbing) one. Is she an inherently miserable and tragic character because she's known all along that she shoots her son in 1977?
Fairly predictable that Charles turned out to be his Twitchy's Dad, though - but does that imply that he also sends him to the island to die?
All in all, not a patch on "The Constant", but this is setting up the season for the finale and reminding us that one of the big themes revolves around free will vs "destiny". Suddenly Daniel is actually open to the fact that things can be changed. But I really want to know what he was doing for the last three years in Ann Arbor...
One last thought - we were told that Desmond is Daniel's constant, so how does Faraday being shot in 1977 affect that?
Next week - the Richard Alpert story!
KennyVader
30-04-2009, 09:46
Yes it was a little slow and disappointing after the two week wait and considering it was the 100th episode!
I thought the various ages of Eloise were a bit dodgy. She aged a LOT between 1977 (shooting Daniel) and 2004 (persuading her son to go to take up Widmore's job offer and ensure he went to the island so he would be in place for her younger self to shoot). I guess it must have been pretty stressful to live your life raising your son knowing you're only doing it so that you can (presumably) kill him later. err earlier. whichever!
What I'm not clear on, Daniel must have already been born by 1977 in order for him to be as old as he is in 2004/5 (post plane crash). So was a kid version of him on the island (living somewhere in othersville with Eloise) in 1977 as well? Or had Eloise dumped him off-island by that point, and goes to find him again when she leaves the island? Does she leave the island as a result of the grief of killing her son? (Assuming Daniel is actually dead - I think he has to be given where he was shot, although it's possible that Richard Alpert takes him into the temple and "sorts him out" :suspect:).
Appears that Daniel is the son of both Charles and Eloise, but Penny's parentage is Charles only; further pointing to Penny being the off-island indiscretion that led to Ben banishing him?
Looks like The Good Life is now over for Juliet and Sawyer, but all hell is going to break loose in four hours anyway when Chang's guys drill into the donkey wheel chamber.
Funniest line had to be Hurley's one about "fonzie time" :D
cockbongo
30-04-2009, 10:01
I was trying to figure out when Daniel was born as well.
It's not unreasonable to assume that Eloise leaves the island right after shooting her son, distraught. But is she already pregnant with him? Daniel didn't get nosebleeds as badly as Charlotte or Miles, so that would mean that either he wasn't born on the island or spent less than a few months on it before leaving. Maybe there's a new born in the camp somewhere...either way, it's a pretty tragic story for her to realise that she has just shot the son she hasn't even had a chance to get to know yet, and that *this will now always happen*.
If she's pregnant (even though she doesn't look it) then that gives him a birthdate of 1977 meaning that he's 19 when he's a professor at Oxford in 1996. Unlikely, but then he did say he was the "youngest ever".
KennyVader
30-04-2009, 10:09
The nosebleed thing could be a huge red herring or maybe we (the viewers) have just assumed it's related to "time spent on island before".
Could simply be that Charlotte and Miles were both Dharma kids that just happened to be around on the island when they were young, but later on when they returned to the island they had no actual destiny, the island didn't need them to do anything, or didn't in Charlotte's case anyway, so just nosebled her to death.
Daniel's entire destiny/island purpose might actually be simply to make sure that Jack and Kate do something, and he's now successfully set them off on whatever that purpose is!
goTimmygo
30-04-2009, 12:11
I thought it was an OK episode. It tied up and confirmed several things that we already suspected and set us up for a run to the series finale..... Next week should be a cracker. Really enjoying the pacing of the show and the amount of twists and turns. So much better than season 3 of heroes!!
zantarous
30-04-2009, 12:14
Another good episode, even if it just filled in the gaps, but a nice build up to the final. I figured that Jim Robinson might be Daniel's dad when he came to visit him but i didn't see that ending coming. I hope they don't kill of Faraday as he is a good character especially since Desmond seems to have been sidelined.
Another solid, fill-in-the-gaps episode but nothing special, considering it was the 100th episode. The last few episodes have all been similar, providing predictable answers to some of the many unanswered questions that have been stacking up over the seasons.
Next week's should hopefully be a little more unpredictable, as the flashbacks involve one of the more enigmatic characters.
Heh. No matter what they try to do they can't change anything... because it has already happened.. it just hasn't happened to them yet. Faraday was the scary man, just like Charlotte remembered, and gets shot by his mum just like she remembers. You can't change it because it has already happened. Unless, that is, we're being set up for a finale similar to S3 where everything gets turned on its head and someone manages to change the course of the future. I hope that doesn't happen, it's much less interesting from a character perspective.
scoobyood
30-04-2009, 14:13
I did expect a bit more the 100th episode, but as has been said, it was solid enough. Plus the ending was unexpected. I was thinking that Hawking's face said that she knew she was sending Daniel to die... which seemed like he was going to die trying to avert "the incident" itself. Didn't see it coming that she shot him. I hope he's not dead, probably not. If he is then how would Hawking know everything... oh yeah, the journal :(
I'm surprised Kate wasn't ****** off at the thought of changing time and stopping the events that lead to the plane crash. That would mean she went to jail. Though I suppose it was also mean Claire is back.
If they stop the incident and the Swan being built etc.. what happens in season 6?!
goTimmygo
30-04-2009, 15:08
Start of season 6 starts on the Oceanic flight, which just flies and lands in LA. Everyone goes about their business, Hurley eats a burger etc until the season ends. Sorted
:lol:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7777/neverforgetfaraday.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neverforgetfaraday.jpg)
Good episode. Probably would have enjoyed it more if they hadn't hyped the fact it was the 100th.
Any theories on why Hawking stops seeing the future? I assume the incident starts the flashes, but can't think of any reason for them to stop.
If they stop the incident and the Swan being built etc.. what happens in season 6?!
It'd be a pretty funny way for the writers to avoid answering a ton of mysteries. "Yeah, none of that stuff actually happened in the new timeline, so there's no questions to answer. The Shadow of the Statue guys and the war Widmore was talking about? Forget all that stuff, it never happened now."
KennyVader
30-04-2009, 16:08
Good episode. Probably would have enjoyed it more if they hadn't hyped the fact it was the 100th.
Any theories on why Hawking stops seeing the future? I assume the incident starts the flashes, but can't think of any reason for them to stop.
Because of either or both of Kreamy breaking the rules and shooting Alex, or Ben turning the wheel and leaving the island?
scoobyood
30-04-2009, 16:18
Good episode. Probably would have enjoyed it more if they hadn't hyped the fact it was the 100th.
Any theories on why Hawking stops seeing the future? I assume the incident starts the flashes, but can't think of any reason for them to stop.
It's got nothing to do with flashes. She was told everything she's known.... she could only know up to the point where she sent the Losties off to get on the plane. After that they meet her... and tell her everything.
Now I've thought about it this episode revealed a hell of a lot. Widmore said that alienating his daughter was his sacrifice. That would indicate that, like Hawking, everything he has done was to manoeuvre everyone in place to be where they need to be. I presume that next week the Losties all get together with the others and plan everything out to try and fix time line and stop the incident. Maybe even resurrect Daniel through telling Hawking to tell Kate to stop him from going into the Camp with the Gun. That would be a good test to see if they can actually change the past....
It's got nothing to do with flashes. She was told everything she's known.... she could only know up to the point where she sent the Losties off to get on the plane. After that they meet her... and tell her everything.
I thought they set it up so that she had flashes like Desmond did about Charlie. Like seeing the man in red shoes die.
I guess I can buy her reading most of that in Faraday's notes though, especially the stuff about course correction.
DrVenkman
30-04-2009, 17:21
The Death of Faraday didn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but most of his actions in this episode came about as a point of writer's convenience more than anything else. Why does Daniel hide himself from Dr Chang only to literally turn around seconds later and run over to him? Oh that's right, because they featured that scene in the first episode and had to shoehorn it in there somewhere.
Again, Faraday, a man who's never brandished a gun before runs into a camp waving it around and shooting people just so the writers could have him get shot by his Mother. For God's sake they're called 'The Hostiles', what made you think that running in and shooting a gun was going to work? It's so completely out of character that it just reeks of writers who are running out of time because they painted themselves into a corner. The show was always written from a 'character comes first' perspective, but this Season more and more times characters motivations have just come about because the writers needed certain things to happen, and this episode was proof of that.
Also, why does Faraday have to make sure Dr Chang continues on the right path if he's only going to try and stop it anyway?
Don't even get me started on "He's my Son too!". That was some Soap Opera type stuff right there.
Don't even get me started on "He's my Son too!". That was some Soap Opera type stuff right there.
Just a friendly wave each morning, helps to make a better day...
Totally agree with the stupid setup for Daniel getting shot.
scoobyood
30-04-2009, 17:45
The Death of Faraday didn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but most of his actions in this episode came about as a point of writer's convenience more than anything else. Why does Daniel hide himself from Dr Chang only to literally turn around seconds later and run over to him? Oh that's right, because they featured that scene in the first episode and had to shoehorn it in there somewhere.
.......
Also, why does Faraday have to make sure Dr Chang continues on the right path if he's only going to try and stop it anyway?
Don't even get me started on "He's my Son too!". That was some Soap Opera type stuff right there.
Well we don't know if he's dead yet. And dead doesn't mean dead on Lost.
Faraday was telling Dr Chang all that to get him to evacuate all the kids from the island.
But yeah the Daniel hiding himself from Chang was a bit weird. Didn't distract me though. Compared to Heroes and the end of Galactica, Lost writers are gods at keeping things together. They'll have to have the smoke monster turn Hurley into the Hurley bird before I stop cutting them a little slack on some stuff.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SMSbul8kHyw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SMSbul8kHyw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
DrVenkman
30-04-2009, 18:03
Well we don't know if he's dead yet. And dead doesn't mean dead on Lost.
Faraday was telling Dr Chang all that to get him to evacuate all the kids from the island.
But yeah the Daniel hiding himself from Chang was a bit weird. Didn't distract me though. Compared to Heroes and the end of Galactica, Lost writers are gods at keeping things together. They'll have to have the smoke monster turn Hurley into the Hurley bird before I stop cutting them a little slack on some stuff.
No Dead doesn't mean Dead. But that still doesn't excuse his incredibly stupid actions. Or the writers.
One more thing (The more I think about this episode the more annoyed I'm getting). But why does Eloise shoot him in the first place? All she has to do is say "Here I am", point her Rifle at Faraday and tell him to put his Gun down and they can talk. Given that they're referred to as 'The Hostiles', they've not actually done anything to the Oceanic crew in the few run ins they've had, nor with Locke et al, so why do they feel the need to load up on Guns? Oh yes, so that they have an excuse to shoot Daniel.
It's not that I'm adverse to killing characters off (And I think that he his dead, Eloise picks up his Journal and that's how she knows everything that's going to happen - Which is why she doesn't know if Desmond will be ok - because Faraday didn't know) but it's that the writers picked the path of least resistance in getting there. Which, until this Season, has always been something they've avoided.
scoobyood
30-04-2009, 18:31
It's not that I'm adverse to killing characters off (And I think that he his dead, Eloise picks up his Journal and that's how she knows everything that's going to happen - Which is why she doesn't know if Desmond will be ok - because Faraday didn't know) but it's that the writers picked the path of least resistance in getting there. Which, until this Season, has always been something they've avoided.
Killing Daniel does actually create a hell of a lot resistance for everyone else. What are the Losties and the hostiles going to do with the information he's given them? And how are they they going to work out how to stop the incident if they don't have Daniel around?
The last episode is going to revolve around what Daniel was trying to do.. can you change things? and is there a variable. If there is, then they should be able to bring back Daniel.. and stop the incident.
Note: Daniel having a gun, asking Kate how to use it... getting shot.. Kate stopping Sawyer from stopping DAn from going into the camp..... it was all suspiciously highlighted. As you say, that could be shoddy writing but there are far easier ways to come up with an excuse for his mother to shoot him. They didn't need that lead up for it and they certainly didn't have to have the scene with him asking Kate for a beginners gun.
It's a long shot but I think those events will be changed.. by Kate being told something.. which changes events. Changing events is what it's all about. Since Eloise is at the centre of that, that would be the first event she would try to change. Then there was the slightly out of place gun wound to the neck. If that's not an opportunity to have Kate make a mistake (eg. she changes something, it doesn't work, Daniel dies from the Radzinski's bullet).. then movies have lied to me.
robzinski
30-04-2009, 18:31
This episode did suggest one thing, in that it appears that Richard Alpert isn't immortal. If he was then Eloise wouldn't have had to shoot Daniel as he couldn't have harmed Alpert?
The other thing, we've seen that when the hatch exploded, not a lot really happened apart from Desmond pseudo-time-travelling, did it? So whats the point in not letting it just explode from the off. This would mean that it wasn't there to control, and therefore not be controlled the time Desmond didn't press the buttons which meant 815 crashed?
Who benefits from 815 not crashing?
Kate was going to jail
Sawyer had just killed someone
Jin/Sun were on the verge of splitting up
Locke was paralyzed
Rose was dying
Bernard's wife was dying
Hurley was jinxed(Did we ever find out why Hurley was in Australia?)
Everyone who would have benefitted from it not crashing is already dead?
Boone/Shannon could have carried on their lives(Possibly together?)
Michael had just got his son back
Mr Eko was on the path of righteousness and priesthood
The only one who was on a bad run pre-crash, and suffered post-crash was Charlie.
Another thing to consider, If they don't have the incident, and don't need the Swan station, then where does this leave Desmond?
Why did Eloise and Widmore need Desmond to be on the island, only to serve as constant for Daniel and send him on the path towards the discovery of variables/constants if he can't change anything anyway and still ends up being shot by Eloise? Why not just accept Desmond into the family and let him marry Penny, stay away from the boat race and thus never get to the island. Therefore he's not there to not press the button, and 815 doesn't crash?
I never got the impression that Richard Alpert was immortal, just that he doesn't age
Hurley was jinxed(Did we ever find out why Hurley was in Australia?)
If i remember correctly, he was there to find out why he was cursed by the lottery numbers. An episode a few seasons ago definitely explained this one.
When Widmore asked Daniel to go to the island he said Daniel wouldn't remember him asking, had he at any point in the episode forgotten? Or is he going to the Temple like Kid Ben and then 'won't remember'?
One more thing (The more I think about this episode the more annoyed I'm getting). But why does Eloise shoot him in the first place? All she has to do is say "Here I am", point her Rifle at Faraday and tell him to put his Gun down and they can talk. Given that they're referred to as 'The Hostiles', they've not actually done anything to the Oceanic crew in the few run ins they've had, nor with Locke et al, so why do they feel the need to load up on Guns? Oh yes, so that they have an excuse to shoot Daniel
At the start of the season, when the survivors first arrived in 1954, the Hostiles fired arrows at them wiping out all but a handful of them.
DrVenkman
30-04-2009, 21:15
I didn't even remember that. Well apart from that, the times when they've walked into camp. Oh like Kate and Sawyer did literally 2 days before!
Highlander
30-04-2009, 21:25
Not to the Losties, but the 'hostiles' shot a Dharmie, and was about to kill his (Horus' future) wife too? When Sawyer and Co first arrived in 1977 (or whenever it was '74?).
sleepy67
30-04-2009, 21:58
Lost intertitle for this episode
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9348/startrek.gif (3.6MB)
Yeah when i saw the stars i thought "hang on, this episode is going to be different", then the Enterprise shot out :lol:
sleepy67
30-04-2009, 22:26
Yeah when i saw the stars i thought "hang on, this episode is going to be different", then the Enterprise shot out :lol:I missed it, took the chance to refresh my glass ...
Oh and a nitpick, H bombs need regular maintenance especially ones from the 1950's. no love no bang
Not sure if even the primary would work as they had developed fusion boosting via tritium even then and that would have significantly decayed over 23 years.
Just some rambling thoughts (Again!):
If we assume that Ellie gets Daniel's journal after his death & contained within it is everything he's ever known about the island, couldn't she now just encourage little_dan to play the piano instead? Or would that be a case of whatever happened not happening, which is wrong, right? :)
If she's read that at the end Daniel believed that "free will" could "change destiny", is it a case that either she isn't or doesn't believe she's a 'variable'? Or in line with the "sacrafice" that she & Charles have made, she chose to groom Daniel for his death? To get to the island? Herself/island over her son? She'd have had all the 'working out' anyway. Or perhaps, in the hope that the newly taught 'free_will_ellie' can do something on the island to revive Daniel that she couldn't first time around? :nuts:
KennyVader
30-04-2009, 22:45
There was a Star Trek trailer / sneak peek / promo thing taking up most of the first ad break (on ABC where I watched it anyway), hence the title, I didn't pay much attention to the actual trailer content though, I think it was snack time!
Best thing about the episode broadcast was Obama's 100 days press conference that was on for an hour immediately before, until someone must have held up a sign to tell him that it was time for Lost, and he virtually stopped mid-sentence and ran off to a side room, very abrupt considering all the waffling he'd been doing! Maybe he wanted to watch Lost too :D. Not even the President of the USA can make Lost start late :D
What a bummer eh for Daniel?? Imagine taking a bullet in the back from your own mum ... it does beg the question why exactly did he have to be sacrificed by going back to the island - what did he set in motion or cause by this shooting??
I just hope that Daniel makes one of those miracle returns that only Lost can get away with as he is one of the better characters and Lost will be a lot poorer if he doesn't feature again imho.
Captain_Howdy666
30-04-2009, 23:59
Best thing about the episode broadcast was Obama's 100 days press conference that was on for an hour immediately before, until someone must have held up a sign to tell him that it was time for Lost, and he virtually stopped mid-sentence and ran off to a side room, very abrupt considering all the waffling he'd been doing! Maybe he wanted to watch Lost too :D. Not even the President of the USA can make Lost start late :D
I'm pretty sure I've read interviews where he's said that he always makes time for Lost.
zantarous
01-05-2009, 01:24
The Death of Faraday didn't work for me at all. I'm sorry but most of his actions in this episode came about as a point of writer's convenience more than anything else. Why does Daniel hide himself from Dr Chang only to literally turn around seconds later and run over to him?
Maybe because it was a restricted area as shown in last weeks episode and if Chang saw him there he would have him removed from the site before he could inspect the dig?
Again, Faraday, a man who's never brandished a gun before runs into a camp waving it around and shooting people just so the writers could have him get shot by his Mother. For God's sake they're called 'The Hostiles', what made you think that running in and shooting a gun was going to work? It's so completely out of character that it just reeks of writers who are running out of time because they painted themselves into a corner. The show was always written from a 'character comes first' perspective, but this Season more and more times characters motivations have just come about because the writers needed certain things to happen, and this episode was proof of that.
Also, why does Faraday have to make sure Dr Chang continues on the right path if he's only going to try and stop it anyway?
we have already seen Faraday is a bit unstable and the fact that he only had a few hours to stop the incident from happening he acted without thinking properly. seem to fit with the character very well.
Don't even get me started on "He's my Son too!". That was some Soap Opera type stuff right there.
Come on you can't have a renowned soap star and not use that dramatic skill that he has :lol:
One more thing (The more I think about this episode the more annoyed I'm getting). But why does Eloise shoot him in the first place? All she has to do is say "Here I am", point her Rifle at Faraday and tell him to put his Gun down and they can talk. Given that they're referred to as 'The Hostiles', they've not actually done anything to the Oceanic crew in the few run ins they've had, nor with Locke et al, so why do they feel the need to load up on Guns? Oh yes, so that they have an excuse to shoot Daniel.
She shot him cause they had a loon run into their camp and threaten to kill their leader at the count of 3, can't just say "Old boy can you please stop" she did what she had to.
Captain_Howdy666
01-05-2009, 01:42
Something I've been thinking about for a while with regard to those on the island: When they were flitting through time (before John corrected the wheel) and Sawyer watched Claire give birth from a distance and we saw him watching from his POV. Was this scene was filmed at the same time as the birthing scene was back in season one? I think it's more than likely as Emily de Clown Paint wasn't credited for that episode.
Has this already been mentioned? If not, am I stating the obvious?
zantarous
01-05-2009, 02:09
I would imagine (guessing here) that the scene was filmed with a combination of archive footage (used stuff from different angles) and new footage with Sayer.
Professor Abronsius
01-05-2009, 21:37
Did someone turn a wheel down in the cave under the Forums Server room... ? :D
My post from earlier has gone, or has not been written yet, or...
Anyway, was just to say i caught a very young looking Josh Holloway in the Aerosmith 'Cryin' Video.
He steals Alicia Silverstone's bag in a diner. :thumbs:
scoobyood
01-05-2009, 22:22
Have you got a link to the cryin video? Youtube/PRS are still being buttholes and regioning all music.
Professor Abronsius
01-05-2009, 22:43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzm65hPw6q8
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/professorabronsius/youngsawyer.jpg
Sorry for the bad quality, it's just a screen grab from youtube.
scoobyood
01-05-2009, 23:11
You sumabitch Sawyer.. give Cher back her Calvin Klein handbag! :mad:
Captain_Howdy666
01-05-2009, 23:16
Prof, I did reply to your post about the Aerosmith video, and it is most definitely him. It was his first acting gig if I remember rightly. He even had a credit on IMDb for it a year or so back.
Professor Abronsius
01-05-2009, 23:18
When was that song out... ? Over 10 years ago... ?
Captain_Howdy666
01-05-2009, 23:22
When was that song out... ? Over 10 years ago... ?
1993 I think.
NicolaUK
01-05-2009, 23:50
Lost intertitle for this episode
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9348/startrek.gif (3.6MB)
I bet this isn't in the UK airing.
AndyWilson
02-05-2009, 00:02
How many episodes have ended with someone being shot? Feels like about 30...
And yet it still manages to be shocking! And awesome!
I love the whole Twelve Monkeys vibe to what's going on.
It seems fairly clear that despite Faraday thinking they're variables that they're not.
I'm not certain he's dead, otherwise why did his mum send him back to the island to die pointlessly through a mistake, unless of course his death leads to something that must happen (hopefully something mroe important than simply delivering Kate and Jack to The Others).
It'd be a shame if he is gone, as I liked his character a lot more than some of the old-timers...
GAmbrose
02-05-2009, 10:32
I agree Roy. Even though it's "The present" for Jack, Kate, Sawyer et al, their destinies are obviously still set in stone because Faradays mum knews she would shoot him, even though it hadn't happened yet for Faraday.
So I don't think they can alter the timeline at all.
Gary A
Yep - Also, Faradays line to Jack about "Did I have a scar when we met?" was odd for someone who is supposed to understand spacetime - he clearly wouldn't have had a scar at that point as he was younger!
I think it was a bit of clumy exposition aimed at the watcher really to make everyone think that nobody is safe....
Yep - Also, Faradays line to Jack about "Did I have a scar when we met?" was odd for someone who is supposed to understand spacetime - he clearly wouldn't have had a scar at that point as he was younger!
I think it was a bit of clumy exposition aimed at the watcher really to make everyone think that nobody is safe....
Yeah, that bit felt really out of place. I think they're really underestimating the intelligence of the average viewer.
If there are any variables then I think Desmond will be the only one. Faraday already told him that the riules don't apply to him. Then again, he was wrong in this episode, so who knows?
gavinhanly
02-05-2009, 18:52
I did like the rather blatant plug for Wired, which Abrams is "guest editing" this month.
Who benefits from 815 not crashing?
Kate was going to jail
Sawyer had just killed someone
Jin/Sun were on the verge of splitting up
Locke was paralyzed
Rose was dying
Bernard's wife was dying
Hurley was jinxed(Did we ever find out why Hurley was in Australia?)
Everyone who would have benefitted from it not crashing is already dead?
Boone/Shannon could have carried on their lives(Possibly together?)
Michael had just got his son back
Mr Eko was on the path of righteousness and priesthood
The only one who was on a bad run pre-crash, and suffered post-crash was Charlie.
I thought about this too, and wondered whether Kate may deliberately try to sabotage any tampering.
Sawyer would probably be happy for it all to never happen, as he's killed more people on the island than he ever did off it. You also forgot about Jack, who seems almost bipolar concerning his views toward the island.
scoobyood
02-05-2009, 21:32
I thought about this too, and wondered whether Kate may deliberately try to sabotage any tampering.
Sawyer would probably be happy for it all to never happen, as he's killed more people on the island than he ever did off it. You also forgot about Jack, who seems almost bipolar concerning his views toward the island.
Kate's mission is now to get Aaron back to Clare. If they never crashed on the island that would solve that problem.
Kate's mission is now to get Aaron back to Clare. If they never crashed on the island that would solve that problem.
Except Claire was on her way to give Aaron up.
My only other worry about this episode was that it pushed Jack back front and centre, when as a leader he has made terrible decisions all the way along - Sawyer has proven to be far more resourceful.
earl_roberts2002
03-05-2009, 09:25
And far more interesting!
WeaselFierce
03-05-2009, 11:33
My only other worry about this episode was that it pushed Jack back front and centre, when as a leader he has made terrible decisions all the way along - Sawyer has proven to be far more resourceful.
I've found Jack to be a very annoying character in the past, particularly, as you say, when he was in charge. I am finding his current laid back attitude a lot more pallatable though.
Surprised he didn't have a dig about Sawyer's "thought out plan" when he revealed the bloke in the cupboard! :lol:
btw did anyone else notice the mechanical sound of the drilling in the scenes outside The Orchid? Kinda like smokey... :suspect:
68monkey
03-05-2009, 17:50
Apparently Rose made it to Los Angeles, as she's now playing Detective Lydia's mom on Southland. :D Oh, and Phil's no longer tied up; he's a Los Angeles detective called "Kenny No Gun." :suspect:
TigaSefi
03-05-2009, 22:45
:notworthy love it love it love it!! Roll on next Sunday!!!
Yes I am thinking the Season finale will be something along the "gamechanging" Season 3 finale - where in the last episode of Season 5 they manage to save the "incident" from happening and thus cause flight 815 NOT to crash on the island. God only knows what Season 6 coudl be, but I'll watch and play along.
Interesting to see Hurley pack up to leave and STILL carry that guitar case along. What is in it ? Why is it so important ? We still don't know why he got on flight 316 either.
Hopefully we'll get Hurley's back story soon.
Not impressed by the ending of this episode. I like Faraday. Why can't they have killed off someone rubbish like Jack instead? Damn them! Not to mention the 'message' of the episode is, once again, "You can't change what happened in the past." Yeah. I already got that, can we move on already?
Shingster
04-05-2009, 13:47
What a bummer eh for Daniel?? Imagine taking a bullet in the back from your own mum ... it does beg the question why exactly did he have to be sacrificed by going back to the island - what did he set in motion or cause by this shooting??
This is a spoiler from the next episode promo posted earlier in this thread:
Looks like Jack and Kate end up with the journal and it spurns them on to do something to prevent "The Incident". So if Jack's actions somehow saves the island from Dharma's accident & Eloise witnesses this and then comes into possession of the Journal, she's going to have to follow the course of events written in the journal to make sure the Oceanic 6 are back on the island in 1977 to "save" the island from The Incident (or perform some other pivotal act).
Ok I liked this episode but wasn't Daniel still alive at the end...he certainly looked it... ok he was shot but he was still breathing...
zantarous
04-05-2009, 19:40
Yes I am thinking the Season finale will be something along the "gamechanging" Season 3 finale - where in the last episode of Season 5 they manage to save the "incident" from happening and thus cause flight 815 NOT to crash on the island. God only knows what Season 6 coudl be, but I'll watch and play along.
I was thinking that regardless of what they try and do the incident will happen, more likely what they do to try and stop it will be actually what causes it. I would assume the only person that can change things is Desmond but I can't see him featuring in the last few episodes.
degeneration
04-05-2009, 21:50
Yep - Also, Faradays line to Jack about "Did I have a scar when we met?" was odd for someone who is supposed to understand spacetime - he clearly wouldn't have had a scar at that point as he was younger!
I think it was a bit of clumy exposition aimed at the watcher really to make everyone think that nobody is safe....
This actually leads me to believe that Faraday lives. As his mind is "Swiss Cheesed" I think he is referring to something in both his future but Jacks past, a past that hasn't been altered yet, possibly before flight 815 if Faraday goes back to stop the flight but fails. Jack just thinks hes mad at this point. Maybe...
Er, wasn't that line just to explain to Jack that they each are living linearly even though they have jumped around in time. If they haven't experienced it yet, it's still yet to happen. But what they have experienced cannot be changed, and will happen, even if it's in a chronological future
Shingster
05-05-2009, 00:51
Yeah the line made perfect sense, he was simply explaining to Jack that he didn't have a scar when they first met, ergo what's happening now is their present.
I think Faraday demonstrated throughout most of last season that he behaves something akin to tunnel vision when his mind's fixated on a problem and doesn't respond very rationally to people around him, hence the shenanigans with the handgun when those Dharma guys confronted them. The whole scenario in the hostile's camp was monumentally contrived though.
What I want to know is why did Alpert immediately come out with that story about Eloise not being available? He knew Daniel was not a member of Dharma and that the "timetravellers" are (rather tenuously) linked to Jacob, so why the stock answer? Why would the group even have a stock answer for anyone coming around asking for Eloise, it's not like the Dharma guys come calling often by the looks of things!
zantarous
05-05-2009, 02:59
Well a guy came running into the camp waving a gun, highly agitated, Alpert wasn't about to say look behind you there she is. For all Alpert knew Faraday was there to put a built in her.
Did I miss it, but Faraday left the Island on the sub some time during the 1970's (for how long?) and then came back when the welcome picture made it to the outside. What was he doing then?
sleepy67
05-05-2009, 04:52
He was at Dharma HQ at Ann Arbour (sp)
zantarous
05-05-2009, 05:20
He said in the episode that he was doing research.
The main thing that I took from this is that once again Sawyer (the thinker) was right & Jack (the doer) was wrong.
Shame to see Daniel go, will Miles (have a feeling he may die to save his father/mother/baby self) and Lapidus make it to the end of the season?
On the not making it front I also have my doubts about Juliet. She looks like she is resigned to Sawyer going back to Freckles (him using her pet name for the first time since she came back certainly gave her a jolt) and there have been hints that she pays a big part in young Ben's life, will it be sacrificing herself for him and/or the Island?
He said in the episode that he was doing research.
Yes but saying and doing in this show very rarely meet.
avid fan
05-05-2009, 08:27
Shame to see the back of Daniel (and I think he really is dead, from the way the camera lingered so he could do the dead-eye thing). Wouldn’t think they’d resurrect him either, otherwise it takes out any element of peril to the main protagonists if you had that get-out clause.
IMHO, there are about six characters that really make the show essential viewing: Faraday, Sawyer, Miles, Ben Linus, Desmond and maybe Locke. I’d also put Mr Keamey in that category (I’m a sucker for Christopher Walken impersonators!). So it’s a great shame we appear to have lost one – I’d have preferred that Jack or Kate got done for (it would have provided a better ‘shock for the 100th episode if they did).
I’m still unclear (as I guess is the intended case) about Alpert and his bunch –I thought, from the bomb episode earlier this season, that they were supposedly from some US Marine corps or something (granted, they could have been telling a fib!:nono:) – if not, do we have any idea??.:thinking:
It’ll be interesting to find out when they (i.e. Alpert and friends) discover time travel themselves, as they seem oblivious to it in the 1970’s (to date). I’m guessing he ends up being very busy during the eighties, zipping along the time-space continuum to set some course of history in motion??
After this episode, I had an image in my head of the final episode:
•Jack would press a reset button, there would be some explanatory discussion about the timeline had been corrected, everything would go back to the start and none of them would remember any of this happened;
•Blinding light – and cut to the Oceanic six getting on the original plane. Jack looks over to Kate and does a double take, as she reminds him of someone. Same for some of the others.
The same thing happens in some film/ tv show (on the tip of my tongue). Of course, before reading the post earlier in the thread, I’d also forgotten the various dire situations of the main cast when they got onto Oceanic at the start, so that blows that theory! :mad:
GAmbrose
05-05-2009, 08:49
Do they consider Ann Arbour to be the mainland?
Because Sawyer said to Jack, Kate and Hurley that they had to hurry and pretend to have come in on the submarine, as there wouldn't be another trip for 6 months...a few days later a sub arrives from Ann Arbour.
Gary A
I think the "resetting and no of this happens" route would have been the perfect way to have ended it for good - ie end of Season 6. Just show the Losties getting on flight 815, then landing at LAX, jack doing hsi dads funeral, Kate been taken into custody, Hurley carrying on with bad luck, Jin and Sun together etc. But it appears that opportunity (if they even pursue it) has cone a season early.
GAmbrose
05-05-2009, 09:30
I think that would have been a complete cop out, after seeing what they have all gone through.
That would be the ultimate in reset buttons.
Plus Ben would die of a tumour, Desmond may never have been reunited with Penny etc. If they ended it like that I would actually be hugely dissapointed.
Gary A
KennyVader
05-05-2009, 10:06
Do they consider Ann Arbour to be the mainland?
Because Sawyer said to Jack, Kate and Hurley that they had to hurry and pretend to have come in on the submarine, as there wouldn't be another trip for 6 months...a few days later a sub arrives from Ann Arbour.
Gary A
Well Ann Arbor is a town in Michigan, I'd heard of it before, but just looked it up and it turns out to be the home of the University of Michigan, maybe Dan is supposed to have done some of his academic work there or maybe Mittelos Bioscience works closely with the university.
It seems from Google Maps to be well inland though - it is close to the Great Lakes, and does have a river linking it to them, but it's not a very big river. So not sure that the sub can go directly there!?!!?!?
I think the "resetting and no of this happens" route would have been the perfect way to have ended it for good - ie end of Season 6. Just show the Losties getting on flight 815, then landing at LAX, jack doing hsi dads funeral, Kate been taken into custody, Hurley carrying on with bad luck, Jin and Sun together etc. But it appears that opportunity (if they even pursue it) has cone a season early.
If they do that I think it'll be the biggest TV uproar since Bobby Ewing stepped out of the shower. As said, it might tie up certain characters' storylines, but it leaves lots of them such as Desmond, Widmore, Eloise and what happens to Ben utterly pointless and unexplained.
GAmbrose
05-05-2009, 10:18
Thinking about it, Carlton and Damon have hinted that Kate will definately decide to go off with Jack or Sawyer by the end of the series(Most likely Jack), and that couldn't happen if they never go through their island experience.
Gary A
AdamBrunt
05-05-2009, 10:46
Stupid question time ....
The woman (who spoke with an aussie accent) who takes Faraday to bomb in the 50's is meant to be the same woman (who spoke with an english accent) who shoots him in the back right ?
KennyVader
05-05-2009, 10:48
yes
makes sense since Jim Widmore can't make his mind up whether to act in Australian or English either!
Dissapointed to read on the latest Carlton/Lindoff interview that they expect a lot of loose ends to remain untied (eg Libbys backstory etc), and they are only planning on finishing the main storyline.
GAmbrose
05-05-2009, 10:58
Not inconcievable that your accent would drastically change in 23 years of being in a 'foreign' country.
The Island being more foreign than most.
Gary A
wonderfibre
05-05-2009, 11:15
I’m still unclear (as I guess is the intended case) about Alpert and his bunch –I thought, from the bomb episode earlier this season, that they were supposedly from some US Marine corps or something (granted, they could have been telling a fib!:nono:) – if not, do we have any idea??.:thinking:
They had US Marine equipment but they'd killed the actual marines (Miles walked over their grave and mentioned it). The marines had presumably been there to test their H-Bomb but the others stopped them.
Stupid question time ....
The woman (who spoke with an aussie accent) who takes Faraday to bomb in the 50's is meant to be the same woman (who spoke with an english accent) who shoots him in the back right ?
Didn't she speak with a very English accent the first time though? I can't remember. But, yes, they are meant to be the same woman.
GAmbrose
05-05-2009, 11:26
She was supposed to have an "Aristocratic English accent" according to the casting call.
Gary A
Disappointed to read on the latest Carlton/Lindoff interview that they expect a lot of loose ends to remain untied (eg Libbys backstory etc), and they are only planning on finishing the main storyline.
Have to say I would not be happy at all if everything was all tied up in one neat little package. I want to have somethings to think abut at the end, and go back and re-watch for any more clues.
Also the danger with tying up everybody's back story is that we end up with more padding, after all do we want more episodes about the Island, or more about the there life before the Island; like Jacks tattoos!
wonderfibre
05-05-2009, 14:56
Whilst I agree that having everything tied up would be a bit risky - leavings things like Libby's backstory out would be pure madness!
MetalGearAl
05-05-2009, 15:01
Have to say I would not be happy at all if everything was all tied up in one neat little package. I want to have somethings to think abut at the end, and go back and re-watch for any more clues.
But that's it... there won't be any more clues. They can't change what was in previous episodes, so if they don't have time to wrap everything up then some of it is going to be left unsaid.
Is there only 1 season left? I was under the impression there were 2 to make 7 seasons in total, but a couple of posts here suggest otherwise.
Edit: Ah, nope, only 6 seasons. Damn that's not much longer.
GAmbrose
05-05-2009, 15:03
2 more episodes this season (Think the finale is double-length though)
and then 16 next season to finish it off.
Gary A
I’m still unclear (as I guess is the intended case) about Alpert and his bunch –I thought, from the bomb episode earlier this season, that they were supposedly from some US Marine corps or something (granted, they could have been telling a fib!:nono:) – if not, do we have any idea??.:thinking:
As far as I remember - back in '54 the others/hostiles etc, killed a small company of US Marines who had landed on the island to carry out H Bomb tests. They then took their uniforms and tents.
/edit: oops someone already answered!
But that's it... there won't be any more clues. They can't change what was in previous episodes, so if they don't have time to wrap everything up then some of it is going to be left unsaid.
But look at how much arguing and theorising there's been so far over existing clues. All the writers have to do is leave some ambiguity when answering questions and fans can continue debating those clues for years.
When the show ends, it'll have been five years since I started watching it. During those five years, I've spent countless hours thinking about each week's episode, reading crap tie-ins like Bad Twin, dipping into the occasional ARG and spending a lot of time discussing and speculating both with friends and in online communities like this one.
Lost's culture extends beyond 42 minutes of weekly television like no other program. It'd be devastating for them to wrap it all up in a neat package and leave nothing up for debate after the season six finale.
JayBenoit
05-05-2009, 16:18
Can somebody please tell me where Claire is?!
I think the last time I saw her was with Christian in the cabin last season.
She can't be dead can she? Kate's entire motivation for going back to the island is to bring Claire back with her.
But look at how much arguing and theorising there's been so far over existing clues. All the writers have to do is leave some ambiguity when answering questions and fans can continue debating those clues for years.
When the show ends, it'll have been five years since I started watching it. During those five years, I've spent countless hours thinking about each week's episode, reading crap tie-ins like Bad Twin, dipping into the occasional ARG and spending a lot of time discussing and speculating both with friends and in online communities like this one.
Lost culture extends beyond 42 minutes of weekly television like no other program. It'd be devastating for them to wrap it all up in a neat package and leave nothing up for debate after the season six finale.
Perfectly put :notworthy
starkkiller
05-05-2009, 16:29
Ok, loved the episode, shame about Daniel... BUT I have a crackpot theory...
Daniel Faraday will be saved by the Others and 'changed' a la Ben, and that will turn him into the all seeing, all knowing, all elusive JACOB!
You heard it here first, folks :)
I like that starkiller - eminently preferable to killing him off
sleepy67
05-05-2009, 18:45
Can somebody please tell me where Claire is?!
I think the last time I saw her was with Christian in the cabin last season.
She can't be dead can she? Kate's entire motivation for going back to the island is to bring Claire back with her.No one knows where Claire is she dissappeared frm the group late S4 and is possibly with Jacob or dead or both or something else ...
There's no way the magic reset button will be hit. They've spent far too much time telling us that "what happened, happened" and that it can't be changed. Best guess, they try to prevent the incident but fail to do so. We then discover that either they ended up *causing* the incident, or Darlton pull out another game-changing twist at us involving the incident which sends us barrelling down the concluding season.
Either way, suggestions that the incident is averted and flight 815 never crashes are, I would say, barking up the wrong tree.
scoobyood
05-05-2009, 22:58
Yeah I think they try and stop the incident, fail and get thrown WAAAYYY back in time. Then that will be our 6th season ;) The Egyptian/Black Rock season. Not only would that be awesome, it also covers the stuff we don't know yet and it mean the Losties are out of their element again. Just like the first season. The best TV shows call back what made their first season great in the final season.
[Still waiting to see who the skeletons are ...]
So can anyone tell me what year the resurrected Locke and Flight 316's are in. According to the "Story of the Oceanic 6" recap episode they are now in 2007. But they took off in 2008. Is there any way we were supposed to have known that (seemingly irrelevant) fact ? Not sure why 2007 is relavant at all ?
GAmbrose
06-05-2009, 08:21
They didn't take off in 2008.
When we flashed-foward during the season 3 finale it WAS 2007 (For the characters and us) and because of the nature of the show they have to stick to 'the present' being 2007.
Or in other words. If you are watching the season finale of a show airing in 2007 and the subtitle labels it as 'Current Day' then it it bound to that year. When the next season starts up again the following year and they pick it up the story right where they left it, then the 'current day' label is no longer applicable because you are 6 months down the line, which with Lost means it's the next year (It airs January - May) The characters are still in 2007 even though we are 6 months down the line
Does that make sense?
Gary A
douglasb
06-05-2009, 08:30
You saw what happened with BSG when they tried to have an ending. I wouldn't be surprised if they tied some things up but left us with something to ponder, like Twin Peaks or The Prisoner. A WTF? moment (like they jump to Ancient Egypt or something ...)
MetalGearAl
06-05-2009, 08:35
But look at how much arguing and theorising there's been so far over existing clues. All the writers have to do is leave some ambiguity when answering questions and fans can continue debating those clues for years.
Yes but my point is little conclusions will be made that haven't been made already if there is nothing extra to go on. Sure there's going to be plenty to discuss, there always has, and everyone can draw their own conclusions.
It depends what you mean by "wrap up" - I don't really want an episode of Ben explaining "and this meant this", "and this meant that" - but if things were said that clearly tied up to something unexplained before then that would be excellent, and that's what I'm expecting. As for every single minutiae, once the show is over I can't imagine spending years agonising over their meaning ;)
Hope they do go back a long way in time, would really spice things up!
MetalGearAl
06-05-2009, 08:37
Yeah I think they try and stop the incident, fail and get thrown WAAAYYY back in time. Then that will be our 6th season ;) The Egyptian/Black Rock season. Not only would that be awesome, it also covers the stuff we don't know yet and it mean the Losties are out of their element again. Just like the first season. The best TV shows call back what made their first season great in the final season.
Not a bad idea actually, getting to see some of the ancient stuff first hand.
I do hope Faraday hasn't been killed off as I rather like the character.
GAmbrose
06-05-2009, 08:55
The difference between Lost and Battlestar is that they made Battlestar up as they went along and didn't really have a clue how to tie it all up.
Gary A
loujareth
06-05-2009, 09:23
The same thing happens in some film/ tv show (on the tip of my tongue). Of course, before reading the post earlier in the thread, I’d also forgotten the various dire situations of the main cast when they got onto Oceanic at the start, so that blows that theory! :mad:
Are you thinking of Donnie Darko, I watched that again the other night and was struck with how you could apply the weirdness and storyline of DD to Lost, they both stir up so many unanswered questions and both are science fantasy and have something to do with time travel (if you follow the directors cut of DD).
They didn't take off in 2008.
When we flashed-foward during the season 3 finale it WAS 2007 (For the characters and us) and because of the nature of the show they have to stick to 'the present' being 2007.
...
Does that make sense?
Gary A
Yes, of course I understand what you mean by that, but ...
- Locke appears at the exit point on or after December 12 2007 (as evidenced by his ("Bentham"'s) passport issue date)
- At the funeral parlour, Jack says to Ben that he had spoken to Locke ("Bentham") about a month ago
- The events surrounding Ben's collection of the Oceanic 6 takes 7 days
... meaning that we are well into 2008 when Flight 316 takes off.
The Story of the Oceanic 6 informs us that they are in 2007 (unknown month)
The difference between Lost and Battlestar is that they made Battlestar up as they went along and didn't really have a clue how to tie it all up.
Gary A
Oh man! dont say that, I'm only just up to "Razor" !
The difference between Lost and Battlestar is that they made Battlestar up as they went along and didn't really have a clue how to tie it all up.
Gary A
Honestly, I think that this season has proven once and for all that Lost is being made up as it goes along too. I've no doubt they had a vague idea of the direction where they wanted to go from the beginning, but there's too many age and timeline discrepencies for them to ever have intended time travel to be involved in the main plot.
That said, when they were given an end date, I'm sure they did map out a plan for the final three seasons and that's the reason we'll (most likely) be seeing a satisfying conclusion.
It reminds me a lot of the X-Files myhtology. The writers were clearly making that up too, but it still told a decent story up until they ended it with Two Fathers/One Son. The problem was that the show was dragged out another three seasons beyond that. With Lost, we should get our Two Fathers/One Son and there'll be no risk of anything beyond that.
DrVenkman
06-05-2009, 09:42
Sadly that's the truth. Ronald Moore has said as much quite a lot. I'm with you in that I'm now halfway through Season 3, but even though I know they don't know what they're doing, I weirdly feel like it's leading somewhere. It doesn't feel aimless...yet.
I totally disagree the show is being made up as it goes along though. There's a difference between 'Timeline discrepancies' and Continuity errors. Take Miles' introduction to the show. People keep talking about how the pictures change. I honestly think it was just a continuity issue. Take an episode as important as 'The Constant', they clearly had that episode ready to go and they've said they used that episode to gauge people's reactions to Time Travel. I think that early in Season 1 it was a little more vague, but Damon Lindelof has said as much. It wasn't until the end of Season 1 that he and Carlton Cuse planned the remainder of the show.
Yes there will be some unanswered questions in 'Lost'. It's inevitable. Remember when the Others had a 'Sheriff' for example. But I think any major mysteries would be answered. I can handle little things being left unresolved.
GAmbrose
06-05-2009, 10:00
Yes, of course I understand what you mean by that, but ...
- Locke appears at the exit point on or after December 12 2007 (as evidenced by his ("Bentham"'s) passport issue date)
- At the funeral parlour, Jack says to Ben that he had spoken to Locke ("Bentham") about a month ago
- The events surrounding Ben's collection of the Oceanic 6 takes 7 days
... meaning that we are well into 2008 when Flight 316 takes off.
The Story of the Oceanic 6 informs us that they are in 2007 (unknown month)
Wow, you are right. I didn't even realise!
From Lost wikia: In January of 2008, flight 316 departed from LAX in Los Angeles, California bound for Guam, a U. S. territory in the western Pacific. Ten hours into the flight, the airplane began to experience heavy turbulence and a flash of bright light engulfed the plane sending them back in time, some to 2007, some to 1977. The pilot Lapidus then guided the plane to an emergency crash landing onto Hydra Island runway in the Pacific Ocean.
I wonder why they bothered doing that.
MetalGearAl
06-05-2009, 10:04
Remember when the Others had a 'Sheriff' for example.
Nope, remind me :)
I'm looking forward to 10 years time when I get all of Lost on DVD (haven't bothered so far) and watch them all back-to-back once again. The only episodes I've ever rewatched so far are the finales.
avid fan
06-05-2009, 10:31
Are you thinking of Donnie Darko, I watched that again the other night and was struck with how you could apply the weirdness and storyline of DD to Lost, they both stir up so many unanswered questions and both are science fantasy and have something to do with time travel (if you follow the directors cut of DD).
Bingo:thumbs:
I've got the naggin feeling the same concept was also applied in a much 'lighter' tv show or movie though:?:
I wonder why they bothered doing that.
Really not sure. I was quite happy to go along with the "the present = 2007" scenario aswell, hence my confusion. So I'm not sure why they've introduced that small time jump. I'm sure we'll get some explanation sometime - I'm assuming Jin and Sun will meet at some point (as will Kate, Jack etc meet with Ben, Locke etc) meaning the two separate time frames will join.
GAmbrose
06-05-2009, 10:53
Unless they wanted them to be exactly 30 years parallel for some reason.
Gary A
wonderfibre
06-05-2009, 11:15
there's too many age and timeline discrepencies for them to ever have intended time travel to be involved in the main plot.
According to:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Solitary#General
they knew time travel was going to be involved in season 1
David Fury revealed in an interview with Lostpedia that, in the first draft of the script, "there was an exchange (pitched by J.J. when he and I broke the story) in an early draft of “Solitary” when Rousseau tells Sayid she had been part of a research team. Sayid asks her what they were researching. She replies: “Time.” The network saw that draft and asked us to remove the line. They were very timid about anything that smacked of Sci-Fi during the first season.
- Locke appears at the exit point on or after December 12 2007 (as evidenced by his ("Bentham"'s) passport issue date)
- At the funeral parlour, Jack says to Ben that he had spoken to Locke ("Bentham") about a month ago
- The events surrounding Ben's collection of the Oceanic 6 takes 7 days
... meaning that we are well into 2008 when Flight 316 takes off.
The Story of the Oceanic 6 informs us that they are in 2007 (unknown month)
I'm not sure I quite understand this logic.
Jack must have spoken to Bentham whilst he was still alive, so this one month time frame is quite irrelevant isn't it? Maybe Locke got his passport on 12th December, died on 13th december, and Jack said that he had spoken to him "about a month ago" on 14th December (eg, he spoke to him on the 14th November). Then add 7 days for Ben gathering people and it's still only 21st December:shrug:
I'm sure I'm missing something but I can't figure out what.
zantarous
06-05-2009, 11:25
I totally disagree the show is being made up as it goes along though. There's a difference between 'Timeline discrepancies' and Continuity errors. Take Miles' introduction to the show. People keep talking about how the pictures change. I honestly think it was just a continuity issue. Take an episode as important as 'The Constant', they clearly had that episode ready to go and they've said they used that episode to gauge people's reactions to Time Travel. I think that early in Season 1 it was a little more vague, but Damon Lindelof has said as much. It wasn't until the end of Season 1 that he and Carlton Cuse planned the remainder of the show.
Yes there will be some unanswered questions in 'Lost'. It's inevitable. Remember when the Others had a 'Sheriff' for example. But I think any major mysteries would be answered. I can handle little things being left unresolved.
I would have agreed with you up until the start of this season, if they had made it up as they went along they certainly sat down and came up with one hell of a way of tying it all together where lesser show runners would have just let it fall apart.
I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they at least had a rough idea of where they were going and things obviously have to change as you go along no matter how well things are planned. But the whole time travel arc has really propelled this show to new heights and turned it into my must watch show the week.
You right somethings just don't fit together but not since Babylon 5 has any show had such a strong sense of being a coherent story. This couldn't be further from BSG or the X Files if it tried.
I will feel very cheated if they don't wrap up all the loose ends, it is all great and stuff to have stuff to think about afterward but I would much rather see an explanation then have to think, they simply didn't know what to do.
GAmbrose
06-05-2009, 12:01
I'm not sure I quite understand this logic.
Jack must have spoken to Bentham whilst he was still alive, so this one month time frame is quite irrelevant isn't it? Maybe Locke got his passport on 12th December, died on 13th december, and Jack said that he had spoken to him "about a month ago" on 14th December (eg, he spoke to him on the 14th November). Then add 7 days for Ben gathering people and it's still only 21st December:shrug:
I'm sure I'm missing something but I can't figure out what.
Locke got his passport in Tunisia for a start.
He travelled around for a while, you can see it's over a period of a few weeks -> a month because he visits Sayid in South America (Assuming it was South America) and then tracks down the others in North America. His leg also gets better during this time, because at the end he is able to stand on a table when he is about to comitt suicide.
Gary A
Oh, OK, so it's Locke's travelling around, and that the passport dates when he arrived back in the "real world" rather than that Jack spoke to him a month before he saw him dead.
Thanks :)
starkkiller
06-05-2009, 12:31
Originally Posted by CRB
[Still waiting to see who the skeletons are ...]
Rose and Bernard.
Only fools are enslaved by time and space.
Lost bones of Nadlers lays deep in cave.
:dork:
I hope it's not Rose & Bernard really - as they weren't in it at all in Season One. And the producers have clearly stated that when its all over people will see that episode again and think "Oh so so they did have it planned out after all" so that's something they knew about in S1 (before the Tailies came into play).
The Tailies, including Rose & Bernard, have all provided interesdting characters, but none of which I think were pivotal to the mythology of Lost. Sure they illustrate some points but nothing solid. and why do I think that ? ... because they are all dead (apart from R & B as it's just too cruel to kill an old man and woman!!?)
I hope it's not Rose & Bernard really - as they weren't in it at all in Season One. And the producers have clearly stated that when its all over people will see that episode again and think "Oh so so they did have it planned out after all" so that's something they knew about in S1 (before the Tailies came into play).
The Tailies, including Rose & Bernard, have all provided interesdting characters, but none of which I think were pivotal to the mythology of Lost. Sure they illustrate some points but nothing solid. and why do I think that ? ... because they are all dead (apart from R & B as it's just too cruel to kill an old man and woman!!?)
Rose wasn't a taillie - http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Rose
Ah yes, her role is so minor I'd made that mistake. And they did mention her "living" husband from Day 1 so maybe there was an intention to the Tailies (or at least Bernard). Still be dissapointed if it is them though.
And "Only fools are enslaved by time and space", isnt an anagram of "Lost bones of Nadlers lays deep in cave", it's a few letters out
starkkiller
06-05-2009, 14:36
Originally Posted by CRB
And "Only fools are enslaved by time and space", isnt an anagram of "Lost bones of Nadlers lays deep in cave", it's a few letters out
Yeah, correct, but it's the best I could do!!! Coincidence, though? I think not. Have tried working it to use ALL the letters, but Darlton said in THIS interview... http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20010504,00.html in response to a question about the bones they say...
'The answer to that question goes to the nature of the timeline of the island. We don't want to say too much about it, but there are a couple Easter eggs embedded in [the Feb. 7 episode], one of which is an anagram that actually sheds some light on the skeletons and hints at a larger mythological mystery that will start to unfold later in the season.'
The anagram in question was in the Episode 'Not in Portland' where Carl is in Room 23 being subjected to that brain washing video. One of the phrases that comes up is Only fools are enslaved by time and space.
Plus, black and white stones were found next to the skeletons.
Coincidence, i think not :dork:;)
Yeah I think they try and stop the incident, fail and get thrown WAAAYYY back in time. Then that will be our 6th season ;) The Egyptian/Black Rock season. Not only would that be awesome, it also covers the stuff we don't know yet and it mean the Losties are out of their element again. Just like the first season. The best TV shows call back what made their first season great in the final season.
I'd like to see that and the two skeltons could then therefore turn out to be Jack and Kate.
The anagram in question was in the Episode 'Not in Portland' where Carl is in Room 23 being subjected to that brain washing video. One of the phrases that comes up is Only fools are enslaved by time and space.
Plus, black and white stones were found next to the skeletons.
Coincidence, i think not :dork:;)
In that same episode we see the front company "Mittelos" (employees: Richard Alpert and Ethan), which is an anagram of "lost time". Surely that's the anagram in question?
the skeletons aren't that old though are they - they had decayed clothing on them about 40-50 years old, making it about 1954-1964 - maybe something to do with when they found Jughead ?
I'm clutching at straws.
Oo- my 1000th post!
MetalGearAl
06-05-2009, 15:52
I wonder how many people are going to be annoyed when it turns out the skeletons aren't Jack + Kate :)
starkkiller
06-05-2009, 16:11
By the way the correct arranging of that only fools phrase is...
Lost bones of Nadlers may lay deep in cave.
Darlton confirmed Mittelos was an anagram in that episode, but the interview refers to an anagram about the actual skeletons. Lost time doesn't really make any sense regarding that, does it?
God I love this program!!! :)
I re-read one of the older interviews that talks about placing the skeletons there so that it proves they knew what they were doing.
But on re-reading it I've realised that all it does set up is the fact that some people go back in time and decay on the island before 2004. Whether or not these people are important is probably irrelevant, but what it does prove is that Damon & Carlton always had time-travel in mind, and I think that's the point they were making by using the skeletons - the point being that they didnt just make up time-travel as a plot device as they went along.
I've lost interest in the skeletons now.
loujareth
06-05-2009, 17:01
Rose and Bernard.
Only fools are enslaved by time and space.
Lost bones of Nadlers lays deep in cave.
:dork:
Put "Only fools are enslaved by time and space" into youtube and watch the brainwashing scene backward, so spooky and freaky.
I'd be interested to know the point of that brainwashing considering it appears that they indeed are enslaved by time and space....
Better add that to the massive list of questions that will go unanswered!
For me this was the most disappointing episode of this series, which so far had been great - after the hype I was expecting answers :razz:
Or at least an appearence from Charlie, well that would have been good for the 100th show. :D
Smiler
Yes, or Mr Eko - I rally hate the way that (Mr Eko especially) they are just treated as if he never existed now. They seemed to make such a big deal of Yemi, the plane, the priesthood, the statues etc etc all for apparently nothing ... leading me to think down the "make it up as they go along" route.
KennyVader
08-05-2009, 08:46
The plane has certainly continued to feature long after Eko/Yemi's story ended. maybe they were just enablers for the plane.
I guess the point is, the plane could have just as easily been a stone, or a big tree - there's no special reason for it to have been made such a fuss of, as all it is is a landmark.
MetalGearAl
08-05-2009, 08:53
And Richard didn't even know it was there!
The Yemi stuff all fed into Eko's story though, showing how he became the man he is -- was that not purpose enough? And don't forget that Eko's story was cut short as the actor wanted to leave; apparently it was intended that he vie with Locke for spiritual leadership of the survivors, so again the priesthood and the back-story would have been important.
That one plane has had several uses really: the Yemi/Eko backstory, the statues for Charlie's drug addiction arc, Boone's death and the discovery of The Pearl. Does the plane itself really need more ultimate significance?
wonderfibre
08-05-2009, 12:31
And Richard didn't even know it was there!
are you thinking of Ben?
Questions from a friend about this episode, can anyone answer them conclusively?
If adult Eloise shoots adult Daniel in the past, does she know as elderly Eloise that she is sending her ill son off to die?
Or does she know as adult Eloise that by telling young Daniel about destiny she is destining him to die?
Is he born in 1977 when he gets killed?
If he isn’t, how do they explain the discrepancies in their ages?
Why does he have brown eyes when Widmore and Eloise have blue?
For that matter why is he called Faraday, shouldn’t he be called Hawking?
sleepy67
03-09-2009, 16:04
Questions from a friend about this episode, can anyone answer them conclusively?Nope, Only the producers can.If adult Eloise shoots adult Daniel in the past, does she know as elderly Eloise that she is sending her ill son off to die?YesOr does she know as adult Eloise that by telling young Daniel about destiny she is destining him to die?yesIs he born in 1977 when he gets killed?don't knowIf he isn’t, how do they explain the discrepancies in their ages?what discrepancy?Why does he have brown eyes when Widmore and Eloise have blue?LOL. "despite being born to two blue-eyed parents. While extremely uncommon, this is not a biological impossibility." From LostpediaFor that matter why is he called Faraday, shouldn’t he be called Hawking?unknown
wonderfibre
03-09-2009, 18:27
re: name = Faraday
I'd expect when Elouise left the island she changed her name so as to hide. she wouldn't be the first to use a sudoname off islan
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.