View Full Version : Lost 5x07 ***SPOILERS***
Brozyniak
26-02-2009, 10:08
Slow John Locke episode but with a twist!
So he didn't take his own life, Ben killed him, after saving him in order to get information about Eloise.
Now we have a fresh bunch of fresh recruits on the Island from the Ajira flight (I thought that they would have bought the farm as it were when the Oceanic lot vanished), including Ceasar, a self styled leader - we'll see what he brings to the table in future episodes.
KennyVader
26-02-2009, 10:33
Brilliant episode I thought! I was totally gripped
LOVE the casting on this show (well apart from when Kate and Jack were doing their usual sub-par acting) - amazing that they can secure an actor for tiny bit parts throughout the early seasons and it's only 3 or 4 years later that he actually gets to play a decent percentage of an episode. Shame they killed Abbadon off as it was probably a nice earner for him!
So Ben actually murdered Locke. Brutal. Seems a bit of a mistake to say "Eloise Hawking" to him and cause him to flip out! Question is did he always intend to kill Locke and just needed to get Eloise's name? Or is he (despite what the show seems to want us to think) actually the good one at heart (with Widmore being actually evil) and he knows killing Locke is just a necessary means to and end.
Alan Dale seems to have given up on the English accent, he was properly Jim Robinson this week! Got to wonder if he knew where this "exit" is why didn't he build some sort of containment around it.
Have to say that the new batch of losties and red-shirt stock top-ups don't seem to be particularly bothered that their plane just crashed. Caesar is just happily checking out Dharma offices in his own sweet time. I wondered if his name being slightly similar to Sawyer is significant - is there a whole batch of people in the New Losties matching the Original Losties. i.e. a doctor, a musician, a pregnant young girl etc. I guess we will be seeing more of Lapidus, sounds like he is still alive. Interesting that the island clearly took selected Original Losties off the plane in light-time-flash mode (Jack, Hurley, Kate) but not all of them (Sun, Ben, Lapidus, Locke), instead leaving them to crash, presumably on the other nearby island (judging from the way Locke was shown staring across the water to a bigger island).
KennyVader
26-02-2009, 11:05
Oh here is this week's Lost Untangled, not as good as previous weeks (no Charlotte :() but still makes me chuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U93XL_EO2Y
Highlander
26-02-2009, 11:21
Presumedly, the girl that ran off with Lapidus is Sun?
And what time zone are we in? If it is the same as the one that Jack/Jate/Hurley are in, why is the Dharma station empty.
Also, that plane looked pretty much in tact.
cockbongo
26-02-2009, 12:44
So the plane crashed on the other small island, the one with the Hydra station on?
In otherwords, the Others *were* building a runway which is why the plane is still in one piece (ish)?
And the two canoes they found two episodes ago on the main island, actually came from the small island - Lapidus and some woman (probably not Sun - she was in the O6) arrived in one, presumably Locke and a few others will arrive in another?
I think i'm more likley to believe Widmore - at least I can believe that he spent 30 years protecting the island as we know he's been there since the 50s. But did Richard and Widmore have a huge falling out of some kind, leading Alpert to recruit Ben in the 70s for some unknown reason (apart from killing the Dharma Initiative, that is)?
The big question for me is how and when did Widmore leave the island?
crashtestmac
26-02-2009, 13:24
What i feel i am missing is if they were all on the same plane how come Caeser is already "incharge" when in my head they only crashed about 1 hour ago..... Or has 2 months passed between the new plane crash and Locke coming to life again.
Crash
Highlander
26-02-2009, 17:14
In otherwords, the Others *were* building a runway which is why the plane is still in one piece (ish)?
Good call, as it looks like they were walking on a road/runway.
However, was that not built post-Dharma? And it looks like they have arrived during Dharma time? Or are they all in different timezones?
Grandmaster
26-02-2009, 17:16
I don't think the pilot went off with Sun - I just don't think we saw her last week... I'd be interested to know what time zone Locke is in. I'm guessing that it must be the 'three years ahead' period.
Since Christian appears to have supernatural abilities following his resurrection, I wonder what sort of stuff Locke will be capable of.
^ Sun is obviously off with Frank Lapidus as they are hardly going to let Sun and Jin be reunited so easily! :D
This episode was just brilliant! :thumbs:
DrVenkman
26-02-2009, 18:16
I'm guessing that Locke is in the 'Current' time zone. So whatever date that plane took off on, it's probably just the next day.
Jack etc have obviously ended up in the past which is why we're seeing Jin in the Dharma outfit.
Think about it, the show has always been about division. Whether it's camps, Islands (In the case of Season 3's opening eps) or now in this case, time. It seems that the flashes may have stopped now, leaving Jack et al in the 70's (I'm guessing there but it seems about right).
Oh and it's bound to be Sun as the others are all accounted for.
Neil Smalley
26-02-2009, 18:36
If Jack, Kate and co are in the 1970's then the Adam and eve skeletons could easily be them. Did'nt Jack and Kate find them in the first place?
Spooksta
26-02-2009, 18:56
Another great episode. Can they keep it up!!
Lets hope so
Very surprised to see the plane had actually crashed rather than just our Losties being teleported out of it. I'm also more confused than ever about who is the bad-guy, Ben or Widmore? ... Or are they just both bad & like Desmond said last week, these two are just using everyone as pawns in one big chess-game.
Anyways, good episode but no real goosebump moments.
DrVenkman
26-02-2009, 19:11
I think Desmond was right.
I do have issues with this ep though, and the Show as a whole.
Locke comes to that end far too quickly for my liking. I get WHY he's tying that noose, but the show doesn't do enough to make his decision believable.
It's like going from A-C but missing out B. In the earlier seasons there would likely come a time where they would show step B and it was all good, but now they have all this story to cover they're aren't going back to cover step B, and storytelling devices that worked in the past are not going to work now.
I read somewhere that the episode was actually intended the other way around, that Locke wasn't supposed to convince them and that they were supposed to continually question him, each time getting harsher and harsher. Starting with Sayid's comment about doing some real good to Jack's ICEBURN at the end. And while it's a neat way of looking at it I don't feel like that's how it was intended.
magneticman
26-02-2009, 19:48
It felt to me, that the 'your're special' was really getting to him
Anyways, good episode but no real goosebump moments.Really?
:eek: Helen's dead! :( :cry:
:eek: Matthew Abbadon is shot dead! Holy ****! :eek: :eek:
Awesome car crash! :eek:
Ben saves Locke! He didn't commit suicide! :eek:
Ben KILLS Locke! :eek:
This episode continually defied my expectations whilst packing in lots!
As I emailed to a friend:
moving
exciting
shocking
surprising
brilliant.
:D
What a brilliant episode AGAIN.
I love this show.
Anyways, good episode but no real goosebump moments.
You are joking, aren't you? It was full of :eek: In fact I'm finding this series completely stressful (but in a good way).
Since Christian appears to have supernatural abilities following his resurrection, I wonder what sort of stuff Locke will be capable of.
I thought Christian had only shown himself to single people and done the "appear and disappear" trick like some of "the Others" have done. So he could be a vision / spirit...? Locke appears to be really alive again, eating and talking with the other survivors of the Ajira flight.
I'd say Caesar and the woman have some agenda that we don't know yet, but are they aligned to Ben, Widmore or another faction?
Is Locke's ex-girlfriend (Leela :dork: ) really dead, or did they create that headstone to ensure Locke keeps to his plan. If she was still alive, would he forget about the island to be with her?
Does Ben think/know Locke will be resurrected? Just wondering what the look on Ben's face is going to be when he sees Locke alive again. :nuts:
My head is starting to hurt.
So many new questions. How did the plane manage to get there in one piece? It didnt quite look like the runway, but maybe.
Who is Caesar and what's his game plan?
Why are the new losties so calm and collected?
Why was Locke not teleported like the rest?
Why did Ben really kill Locke? Is he really such a ****** ****?
Frank was flying = good landing! ;)
Locke was dead = not teleported (but then neither was Sun and Frank so one could argue it's just convenient writing)!
Yes, Ben really is a ******* ****! :D
Maybe the newbies are calm because they have no reason to be afraid. Yet.
Ben saves Locke! He didn't commit suicide! :eek:
Ben KILLS Locke! :eek:
Just an amazing scene. I would watch these two read the phone book out.
moving
exciting
shocking
surprising
brilliant.
QFT.
cockbongo
26-02-2009, 22:12
Good call, as it looks like they were walking on a road/runway.
However, was that not built post-Dharma? And it looks like they have arrived during Dharma time? Or are they all in different timezones?
I think it's "now" for the Ajira crash folk. The Hydra station was abandoned by the Others at the end of S3.
It'll be interesting if Lapidus is teamed up with Sun, as that means all of the O6 didn't "teleport" from ther plane, and you would have thought they would all be together since they were the ones who had to go back. Unless, of course, the lack of Aaron on flight 316 did lead to "unpredictable" results, as Hawking warned last episode. If it is Sun, then that delays the Sun/Jin reunion...
There's a theory kicking about that Cesar and that other woman take one of the other boats and that's who is shooting at Sawyer/Juliet etc in "The Little Prince". I don't buy that as the gun Cesar found was a double barrelled shotgun and thats definitely not what was being fired....
gavinhanly
26-02-2009, 22:33
Thought it was an excellent episode. Loved everything that's been mentioned, but especially liked Locke telling Jack that his father was still alive, which was a bit of a shock. Especially as Locke teleporting (or whatever) early gave the impression that he wouldn't know who "my son" referred to. Thought Matthew Fox was particularly good in that scene - indeed, everyone outdid themselves. Very very very good show.
Another episode that hit it out the park IMO.
Great car crash. So didn't expect Abaddon to buy it. The scene where Ben saves/kills Locke was a great piece of television, and proof that you don't need to be a cable show to pack a terrific emotional punch.
Stream of consciousness coming up:
Ben is power mad. He (allegedly) found a way to get Widmore off the island when it appeared he was taking control. He shot Locke when it looked like the same thing was going to happen again. He then got info from Locke on how to get back to the island, and promptly killed him, presumably so he could fill Locke's shoes. The nagging doubt is Richard and Jacob/Christian. Richard is very deferential to Ben, and J/C told Locke he had to die. You also have to figure that Ben knows that taking Locke back to the island would resurrect him, so why do it if he's scared of Locke? Unless your power fades when you're an island zombie so that you can't lead, and you also stay looking the same physically. That would explain why Richard doesn't ever age, but it wouldn't explain how he could leave the island to recruit Juliet. Argggghhhhhhhh! :p
Just watched the Lost Untangled clip for this episode. Anyone else think they made a big deal of saying twice that Abaddon was shot, but never said killed? :suspect:
68monkey
26-02-2009, 23:27
I can't believe nobody's mentioned the return of Walt! Wow, he's really grown up. I'd be surprised if he was just making a little cameo appearance, and they decided to leave him out of future episodes with Locke's comment of "poor kid's been through enough" as sufficient explanation. There was so much build-up in the first season as to Walt being special. It's hard to believe that Ben really did just let him go home with his dad after figuring out that he wasn't the chosen one.
Even though Michael was annoying, I'd love to see Walt pop up as one of the people who was on that plane. Not likely, I know, but it would be a nice development.
As for Locke's suicide, I didn't see it as a big surprise. He couldn't convince anybody to go with him, and Richard had told him already that he'd have to die to get back. Still, to have to do yourself in can't be pleasant. Ben killing Locke after hearing the name Eloise Hawking was a big shock, though! I guess we'll find out more about that later. Still, Ben worked to make sure the body was preserved after Jack visited the funeral home, keeping it nice and chilly in the butcher's meat locker.
I would guess that previous posters' comments about Frank and Sun being the two who took off in the boat are correct, and definitely agree that the Sun & Jin reunion will not be an easy one!
And Boink!, I wondered the same thing. . .
Is Locke's ex-girlfriend really dead, or did they create that headstone to ensure Locke keeps to his plan.
I can't see this being important enough to bring her character back for more than a scene or two at most, but might be something discovered later. You never know.
KennyVader
26-02-2009, 23:46
Ben is power mad. He (allegedly) found a way to get Widmore off the island when it appeared he was taking control. He shot Locke when it looked like the same thing was going to happen again. He then got info from Locke on how to get back to the island, and promptly killed him, presumably so he could fill Locke's shoes. The nagging doubt is Richard and Jacob/Christian. Richard is very deferential to Ben, and J/C told Locke he had to die. You also have to figure that Ben knows that taking Locke back to the island would resurrect him, so why do it if he's scared of Locke? Unless your power fades when you're an island zombie so that you can't lead, and you also stay looking the same physically. That would explain why Richard doesn't ever age, but it wouldn't explain how he could leave the island to recruit Juliet. Argggghhhhhhhh! :p
Again I feel that Lost might be leading us up the garden path with regards to Ben being Super Evil, it's almost too obvious that they want us to think that, certainly I won't be surprised if it turns out that Ben knew that the only way to get the rest of the gang back to the island was to kill Locke and that it was OK to kill him because he knows Locke will be resurrected, and in fact Ben turns out to be the good one.
Thinking about it, if Ben is so power crazed, then with all the island knowledge he's got, why would he have gone through with the "moving the island" thing knowing he would end up exiting the island into Tunisia? No power crazed person would throw away the very thing they seek to control. There has to be so much more to it than simply Ben wants the island to himself. Hence he may yet turn out to be "good".
The most overridingly annoying thing about all of this is that none of them have ever asked Ben, Widmore etc what is going on with this island, what it's all about. The show is just portraying them as blindly wanting to go back to this precious island, but for what? As was pointed out already (in the last episode thread I think) pretty much everyone they would care about is already dead. I love the show this season but I think they need to come up with some explanations about why they want to go back so much, pretty soon.
MovieMax
27-02-2009, 00:14
I really enjoyed this episode, after last weeks slow burner, WOW. My mind was left in a daze, so much content. This season must be the best, so far. I have an over whelming urge to watch every episode again, just to pick up on missed clues. A big fan of ‘Time Travel’ and this must be worthy of being as good as, Philip K Dick at his best.
earl_roberts2002
27-02-2009, 00:23
The most overridingly annoying thing about all of this is that none of them have ever asked Ben, Widmore etc what is going on with this island, what it's all about.
Hit it on the head. When Sayeed was killing for Ben to protect the island or Jack was running round recruiting for Ben surely one of them would've asked something! "Do this or your friends will die." "Hmmm ok!"
But Lost has lacked this realism from the start honestly, remember questions used to be asked and one of the others or somebody would just stare into space until the question was forgotten, never to be repeated again :lol:
But this episode has pushed this season up to almost season 1 levels, every episode is a surprise, is exciting and leaves me wanting more.
Was nice to see Walt, but the fact he was so special that murder would be attempted so he could be captured, just because he may sometimes have psychic dreams is an anti-climax to say the least.
This timeline weaving is getting quite clever now, the lead up to bearded "we've gotta go back" Jack being clarified makes a lot more make sense to me now :)
Well if Jin can come back I see no real reason in the Lost universe that Michael cannot come back either. Although Ben did seem genuinely suprised to hear that Jin was alive.
fugazied
27-02-2009, 07:10
My main question is WHY do they continue to trust Ben. It's the flaw of the entire show at the moment. He has double crossed or KILLED them so many times it is obscene. He's killed Locke before, remember? Why would Locke trust someone who has killed him twice??
So is Caesar working for Widmore? He certainly seemed to be looking for something specific at the beginning of the episode...
I suppose Ben is one of the more logical characters in the story in relation to the completely weird situation the 'normal' O6 people have found themselves in.
Walt did give Locke some important * future * info, though at the time Locke didn't understand the reference: "I have dreams of you standing on a beach surrounded by people that want to harm you." (something similar to that). Hopefully Locke will be prepared now with that info. Also with Locke now alive again, he should start believing in himself again.
Thinking about it, if Ben is so power crazed, then with all the island knowledge he's got, why would he have gone through with the "moving the island" thing knowing he would end up exiting the island into Tunisia? No power crazed person would throw away the very thing they seek to control.
Well, he does seem to fanatically believe it's his island and possibly it could be if Ben couldn't have the island then no-one should have it. Then it was just a matter of time before he'd find a way to get back.
I'm wondering if there is a good and/or evil side with Ben & Widmore, just bad and less bad... and the survivors of the flight are really just caught in the crossfire.
enemy2pc
27-02-2009, 08:03
I think we're reading too much into the fact that Ben killed Locke after he mentioned Eloise Hawking, i think he had every intention of killing him anyway and only talked him down from the table coz a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice when it's suicide.
Alpert told Locke he would have to die and Christian also confirmed there would need to be a sacrifice. Neither told him to top himself:D
Were starting to see more and more of the Islands 'rules' like the whole proxy thing with the Ajira plane for example so it's reasonable to assume there are a few concerning messiahs that take their own lives.
Great episode all round i thought:thumbs:
Regards
Bryan
I think we're reading too much into the fact that Ben killed Locke after he mentioned Eloise Hawking, i think he had every intention of killing him anyway and only talked him down from the table coz a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice when it's suicide.
I was about to say that. I think Ben already knows Eloise (or she appeared to recognise him I thought) and he was planning to kill Locke anyway.
Maybe it's part of the 'things have to be the same' plan. The death can't be a suicide - how did Christian die? I can't remember!
"he apparently died as a result of an alcohol-induced heart attack"
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Christian_Shepard
gavinhanly
27-02-2009, 09:39
Christian effectively drank himself to death didn't he?
Edit - drat, beaten to it...
What's the betting that when this show is finally over, someone will edit the whole story, including flashbacks, into chronological order?
I think you can bet on it! ;) In fact I wouldn't be surprised if abc somehow edit it into a tv movie event, that would be cool.
William Shatners Wig
27-02-2009, 13:25
"he apparently died as a result of an alcohol-induced heart attack"
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Christian_Shepard
Christian effectively drank himself to death didn't he?
Edit - drat, beaten to it...
I reckon that he was bitten, voluntarily, by one of those spiders that paralyse you and reduce your heart-rate to virtually nothing; either that or injected with their venom.
That episode with the spiders (from Series 3??) was very weird, in that there was no mention of it, or the spiders afterwards. Almost as if it was just Fan Fiction.
What's the betting that when this show is finally over, someone will edit the whole story, including flashbacks, into chronological order?
With all the time-travelling, even chronological order would be confusing!
You'd need a separate re-edit for each character, showing the "Lost experience" through their eyes start-to-finish. That might be interesting...
Captain_Howdy666
27-02-2009, 13:36
What's the betting that when this show is finally over, someone will edit the whole story, including flashbacks, into chronological order?
A member of another forum I use, has said he plans to do this.
goTimmygo
27-02-2009, 13:41
If Jack, Kate and co are in the 1970's then the Adam and eve skeletons could easily be them. Did'nt Jack and Kate find them in the first place?
Can someone remind me about this, I don't recall this episode....
Coolhand
27-02-2009, 15:20
Can someone remind me about this, I don't recall this episode....
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
PaulieC79
28-02-2009, 18:46
Another excellent episode. I also believe Ben planned to kill Locke all along knowing that a suicide wouldn't 'count' as it were.
MetalGearAl
28-02-2009, 23:55
So did all of the Losties "teleport" out of the plane before it crashed (they made a thing of mentioning Sayid disappearing)? Besides Locke that is? Mind you if Sun is on the island with the pilot then I guess not...
WeaselFierce
01-03-2009, 10:55
Great stuff! Really moving performance from Terry O'Quinn playing off against various characters. Abaddon's death (or just shooting) :eek:!
No idea who's evil or not anymore (including Locke for that matter). I suspect Ben doesn't know Locke was supposed to die (one nugget of information Locke didn't mention to him) and is acting in pure self interest. Remember Eloise kept the shoes thing secret from Ben. I figure he kept the body purely because he knows he has to get as many of them back to the island as possible.
I always thought Abaddon was like an evil counterpart to Alpert but now I've no idea. Love the way this is all coming together. Looks like a lot of significant future events are going to play out in the past :thinking:
Terribly_Mauled
01-03-2009, 21:05
Tremendous hour of television.
Abaddon's shooting was simply brilliantly executed [sorry] as you literally didnt see it coming.
The Locke and Ben scene is best piece of acting I've seen so far this year too.
degeneration
01-03-2009, 21:09
The Westerfield Hotel or...
WESTERFIELD HOTEL any anagram in that?
I'm dissapointed with the explanation of the beardy Jack.
He has a meeting with Locke in hospital who says (a) you have to go back to save the others and (b) his dad is alive on the island. Jack thinks he's nuts, but gets even more depressed, grows a bigger beard, buys flights to and from LA and shouts at Kate at the airport that they "Have to go back !". All that from a 5 minute hospital meeting with Locke ? Unconvincing. Or have I missed something ?
And if it was Sun who rowed off with Lapidus - how come Sun is not with Hurley, Jack and Kate ? Or Saied for that matter. And Ben is back on the island after saying that he can never return. "Oh but Ben lies" - so is there acutally any point in listening to one bit of dialogue this character says in the entire series, that get out clause is the equivalent to the Bobby in the shower routine in Dallas.
I love Lost but have to admit something is not quite hitting the mark with this season. Can't put my finger on it. It's like they've so many loose ends that need tieing up, so they are trying to do that, but they are doing it too quickly to make it look convincing or well paced. Nevertheless I will watch to the very end.
I love Lost but have to admit something is not quite hitting the mark with this season. Can't put my finger on it. It's like they've so many loose ends that need tieing up, so they are trying to do that, but they are doing it too quickly to make it look convincing or well paced. Nevertheless I will watch to the very end.
They're making it up as they go along. Shhh, don't tell anyone.
KennyVader
02-03-2009, 01:24
Here's a thought. It looks as though it was Sun that ran off with Frank the pilot, so that means she was never teleported off the plane like Jack, Hurley and Kate were.
Was Sun not teleported because she's in league with Widmore (the conversations she had with him in London etc)?
So does that mean that Widmore is BAAAAAAAAD after all?
MetalGearAl
02-03-2009, 08:11
I'm dissapointed with the explanation of the beardy Jack.
He has a meeting with Locke in hospital who says (a) you have to go back to save the others and (b) his dad is alive on the island. Jack thinks he's nuts, but gets even more depressed, grows a bigger beard, buys flights to and from LA and shouts at Kate at the airport that they "Have to go back !". All that from a 5 minute hospital meeting with Locke ? Unconvincing. Or have I missed something ?
And if it was Sun who rowed off with Lapidus - how come Sun is not with Hurley, Jack and Kate ? Or Saied for that matter. And Ben is back on the island after saying that he can never return. "Oh but Ben lies" - so is there acutally any point in listening to one bit of dialogue this character says in the entire series, that get out clause is the equivalent to the Bobby in the shower routine in Dallas.
I love Lost but have to admit something is not quite hitting the mark with this season. Can't put my finger on it. It's like they've so many loose ends that need tieing up, so they are trying to do that, but they are doing it too quickly to make it look convincing or well paced. Nevertheless I will watch to the very end.
My thoughts exactly, tbh. As I've said in a few posts from the past few episodes... I just don't see what's convinced Jack. And this episode showed that Locke barely spoke to him! It all feels so rushed.
GAmbrose
02-03-2009, 08:35
I'm dissapointed with the explanation of the beardy Jack.
He has a meeting with Locke in hospital who says (a) you have to go back to save the others and (b) his dad is alive on the island. Jack thinks he's nuts, but gets even more depressed, grows a bigger beard, buys flights to and from LA and shouts at Kate at the airport that they "Have to go back !". All that from a 5 minute hospital meeting with Locke ? Unconvincing. Or have I missed something ?
I guess he felt really guilty that Locke commited suicide? He may also have been depressed prior to this because of his breakup with Kate.
Gary A
When ever we have seen Jack off the Island there have been signs that since he witnessed the Island disappear that he was beginning to think Lock was right & he was wrong. However this really played against Jacks strong 'man of science' belief's.
I think it was the mention of Lock saying "your Dad say's hello" to Jack that was the final thing that changed his mind. Jack has seen glimpses of his dead dad on the Island & since he got off but not told anyone. When Lock said he had also seen & talked to him I think it was the final wake up call for Jack.
I dont think the "woman" who left with the pilot is not going to be Sun.
I think we are going to be in for a number of 'flashback' episodes now, on who and why some people are on the plane, and are taking the crash very much in their stride.
I would not be to surprised if Desmond was on it (and maybe Penny, she could be the lady 'who went off with the pilot'), maybe even Walt, and quite possibly even Widmore himself.
MetalGearAl
02-03-2009, 09:10
I dunno, given that Jack was the strongest one against the island and to see him break so easily... just seems so out of character. If they don't expand on his drop into depression then I'm really going to be disappointed.
Agreed. He was willing to COMMIT SUICIDE over his depression (jumping off bridge). If that's all explained by "Your dad says hi" then thats a little on the lame side.
But then I shouldnt expect too much from the program, theyve got a lot to get through. If I want really in depth character analysis I'll re-watch "The Sopranos" :)
I do think the way they brushed over the Walt character. I've seen on other sites that the rumuor is that this appearance of Walt is the last we're going to see of him. Basically "Oh Walt's doing OK, at school, gotten over losing his dad, so thats that". Which is a big shame as he had special powers that the Others were prepared to kill for, he appeared in places on the island speaking backwards and dripping wet, etc etc. A little too much to be just cast aside I think.
crashtestmac
02-03-2009, 09:38
The main problem they have with Walt is that they cannot film any flashback episodes with his as he has aged and there is no amount of makeup that can make him look 8 again...!!
Is Locke's ex-girlfriend (Leela :dork: ) really dead, or did they create that headstone to ensure Locke keeps to his plan. If she was still alive, would he forget about the island to be with her?
That was my first thought too.
What are the chances of her being the woman that went off with Frank? Convinced to get on the flight with the promise of meeting back up with Locke, can be used as a persuasive device to get Locke back to the island if he gives up hope. Probably unlikely, but I'm suspicious of her death.
Other candidates for the 'woman'... how about Eloise?
No, Libby's really dead. I think the island can bring people to life if only they died off the island.
I take it the island the plane crashed on is the sister island to the main island, and has the cages for the bears and medical facility where Ben was operated on.
No, pretty sure Libby's really dead. I think the island can bring people to life if only they died off the island. If they do appear, it's as a spirit imparting infomation (more like the island is using their likeness to **** with people's heads).
I take it the island the plane crashed on is the sister island to the main island, and has the cages for the bears and medical facility where Ben was operated on?
MetalGearAl
02-03-2009, 10:28
So why is Christian Shepherd "alive" (as in, undead) in such that he appears to be a apparition that people can't interact with, but John Locke appears to be completely 100% human again.
Unless John really is undead and hasn't realised it yet. Did he physically interact with anyone this episode?
He was handed a mango by the new woman and ate it.
Unless THEY ALL ARE DEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!! :nuts::nuts:
cockbongo
02-03-2009, 11:33
I take it the island the plane crashed on is the sister island to the main island, and has the cages for the bears and medical facility where Ben was operated on?
Post 4 mate :thumbs:
I'm ok with Jack's descent into depression. Watch the scene again - Jack is already a mess when talking to Locke, as most of the damage has already been done in the split-up with Kate, the loss of his "nephew", and the visions of his dead father. Coupled with the dependence on drink and pills, seeing Locke now - you can hear the fear, anger and almost disbelief in his voice. One final confirmation that Locke knows *something* about his dead father is enough to push him that bit too far. Remember, Jack is too stubborn to ever *admit* that he is wrong, so his own pursuit of the island makes perfect sense - he has to find out on his own terms. By this point he's virtually useless as a doctor so takes a free flight every week, hoping that he'll just "end up" there, but the discovery of Bentham's obituary is the last nail in the coffin (so to speak) as now he may never know what happened to his father. A suicide attempt is perfectly believable.
I suppose having a character's emotional "journey" split up in a non-linear fashion means its much harder to follow and have any empathy with. Coupled with some variable Matthew Fox performances over the space of three seasons, it doesn't do itself any favours. But it does make perfect sense, certainly to me.
Locke's suicide is much more easily explained - having tried all he can to get people to come back, he figures that dying (and he's been told he will) is the only thing he has left to do that may actually work in bringing everyone together back to the island. He's clearly not very happy about that. But then, his death leads to his obituary, which brings Jack to his funeral, which sets everything in motion to actually bring them back. In death, he gets the job done.
Problem is, would any of it have happened without Ben's handiwork?
chillster76
02-03-2009, 11:41
I like the way when Locke is asked a question he gives a straight up answer, the opposite of Ben who is always lying or being cagey when asked a question. Given the show seems to be all about opposites, black and white, right and wrong, you have to wonder whether that's deliberate.
Either way, it made me chuckle a couple of times given how ridiculous his answers were to the newbie losties.
Silver Jet
02-03-2009, 13:16
I think that Locke, Ben and the new characters + Sun and Lapidus are in the same time as the outside world i.e. three years after Locke turned the donkey wheel. It looks likely that it was these people that were involved in the boat chase and shoot-out with Locke, Sawyer, Juliet etc. Which means that Locke might end up being on both boats at the same time.
I think this episode shows that The Others had knowledge of the future when they built the runway on Hydra Island. Knowing that 3+ years later the plane would crash land there.
Concerning Richard Alpert, in the first episode of this season when he told Locke that he was going to die. He also told Locke that he himself had told Richard where he would be in the jungle. So, it would seem that at a point in the future Locke will tell Alpert where he was in the jungle with a bullet in his leg and also future Alpert will have knowledge that Locke dies hence him telling past Locke that he is going to die.
MetalGearAl
02-03-2009, 14:34
He was handed a mango by the new woman and ate it.
Ah yes, knew there was something in the episode that I saw when I first questioned it :thumbs:
It looks likely that it was these people that were involved in the boat chase and shoot-out with Locke, Sawyer, Juliet etc. Which means that Locke might end up being on both boats at the same time.
If that's the case, then that's a right royal head**** :nuts:
GAmbrose
02-03-2009, 17:21
He's not stupid though, he would remember.
Gary A
Re The Jack change of heart/mind thing ... you gotta remember that he has just been told that:
A) His Father is *possibly* alive and back from the dead on the Island.
B) He has a sister who he left back on the Island.
Now I think that would rapidly change/persuade ANY of the ones who left the most - don't you think??:shrug:
Agreed. He was willing to COMMIT SUICIDE over his depression (jumping off bridge). If that's all explained by "Your dad says hi" then thats a little on the lame side.
But then I shouldnt expect too much from the program, theyve got a lot to get through. If I want really in depth character analysis I'll re-watch "The Sopranos" :)
Yes, but he was only going to commit suicide after he found out Lock was dead and gone with him was his last chance to get back to the Island and see his Dad and sister again.
Jack being Jack, he also might have felt responsible for Locks death too.
MetalGearAl
03-03-2009, 08:07
He didn't seem particularly moved when he found out he had a sister.
He didn't seem particularly moved when he found out he had a sister.
Well, maybe his acting was not great, but you could defiantly see his character was knocked for 6 when he was told at his dads memorial service.
GAmbrose
03-03-2009, 08:44
I remember he was told he has a half sister, but does he know that it's Claire? I can't remember
Gary A
MetalGearAl
03-03-2009, 09:18
Yeah at the memorial service he is told Claire is his half sister.
His actions might have been a bit more believable if in his breakdown he exclaimed stress over the loss of his born-again father and half-sister. These are things we know already so it wouldn't be giving anything away for him to say that.
dannywonderful
03-03-2009, 09:42
Nobody breathes like Mathew Fox though! I think he was hired for his ability to look out of breath.
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Yeah at the memorial service he is told Claire is his half sister.
His actions might have been a bit more believable if in his breakdown he exclaimed stress over the loss of his born-again father and half-sister. These are things we know already so it wouldn't be giving anything away for him to say that.
That's the problem with the show at the moment. All the character's actions can be logically explained, but because of the speed the show is currently moving at it's left upto the viewers to piece it together. In theory it's not a bad thing, but it's not entirely satisfying either.
MetalGearAl
03-03-2009, 10:45
It's very unsatisfying with the incredible amount of weight they put on Jack's grieving at the end of Season 3 and throughout 4. I take your point and see that if we pieced it together it could make sense, but it's very disappointing not to have it in the show.
I see what you are all saying, all the bits add up, buit it's still not very clearly done. Anyway suffice it to say, he was depressed, now he's back on the island where Ben said "Theres no coming back", to which jack said "Fine".
Maybe Adam (skeleton) is Jack after all ...
GAmbrose
03-03-2009, 11:45
Ben only said whoever moves the Island can never come back.
And since both Ben and Locke are back now, it would seem that he was lying...again.
Gary A
Ben lies, you can't trust a single thing he ever says as any kind of "truth".
cockbongo
03-03-2009, 12:13
Ben only said whoever leaves the Island can never come back.
Especially since Charlotte and (it seems likely) Miles have been there before - and come back. Although of course, Charlotte was warned it would kill her....;)
The non-linear nature of Lost's storytelling involves you having to piece together both narrative and emotional arcs. I'm happy enough not having everything spelled out to me, I understand how Jack got to this point and find it valid and effective storytelling.
Talk about not pleasing all the people all of the time - do you really want another episode of Shepherd getting more beardy, crying a lot, drinking and shouting "WE HAVE TO GO BACK", just so it feels more real? I dare say i'd be bored ******** - they're back - great - now lets get on with the story.
DrVenkman
03-03-2009, 12:27
It was only the Locke arc that was poorly done. We've seen Jack a few times and understand how he came to be the way he was. The thing with Locke and his "suicide" as I said earlier, was that it wasn't convincing. There's quite clearly a gap missing between him seeing Jack and him being ready to do the deed. But at this point we're not going to know what happens there, we've been asked to just fill it in ourselves.
All it really needed was 1) Something to say some time had passed (Even a week or two) since seeing Jack and 2) Locke realising he has no way back to the Island. Then he's at his lowest, he knows he's never going to get back and it makes his suicide easier to swallow. The way the episode presents it it just comes across as an afterthought.
It's very unsatisfying with the incredible amount of weight they put on Jack's grieving at the end of Season 3 and throughout 4. I take your point and see that if we pieced it together it could make sense, but it's very disappointing not to have it in the show.
For me Lost, with the back-storys and character-centric episodes, does such an amazing job of building a character that I feel I know them to the point it's obvious how they are going to behave that I don't find it bothersome when the characters make these decisions. Especially with Jack as that island clearly has some incredible pull on all the characters - their resistance was always going to crumble.
With regards to Ben, up to this episode I was utterly convinced he was the good guy and that every single action he takes is for the benefit of the island and it's inhabitants - and that they deliberately make his actions look like reactions (killing Locke when he mentioned Eloise) when they are premeditated. I was even more convinced when Widmore came over far too nice when speaking to Locke. Only thing nagging me after this episode is that if Ben is so good and important for the island, why it didn't suck him off the plane too...:?:
This season has been unmissable - what an absolutely ******* awesome program this is.
Coolhand
03-03-2009, 12:52
Ben only said whoever moves the Island can never come back.
And since both Ben and Locke are back now, it would seem that he was lying...again.
Gary A
Well to be pedant, they're not technically back on the island, they're on the island next to the island
Especially since Charlotte and (it seems likely) Miles have been there before - and come back. Although of course, Charlotte was warned it would kill her....;)
The non-linear nature of Lost's storytelling involves you having to piece together both narrative and emotional arcs. I'm happy enough not having everything spelled out to me, I understand how Jack got to this point and find it valid and effective storytelling.
Same, here:wave:
This is what I like about LOST.
about not pleasing all the people all of the time - do you really want another episode of Shepherd getting more beardy, crying a lot, drinking and shouting "WE HAVE TO GO BACK", just so it feels more real? I dare say i'd be bored ******** - they're back - great - now lets get on with the story.
What really need is a two part story arch about another of Jack's tattoos :nuts:
MetalGearAl
03-03-2009, 14:15
For me Lost, with the back-storys and character-centric episodes, does such an amazing job of building a character that I feel I know them to the point it's obvious how they are going to behave that I don't find it bothersome when the characters make these decisions. Especially with Jack as that island clearly has some incredible pull on all the characters - their resistance was always going to crumble.
That's it though. I think the the characterisation is so good that I can't believe in Jack's complete 180 as it stands. We know him well enough to see how determined he was to get off the island, we saw that in countless episodes, so just imagine how difficult it should be to get him to go back.
I agree partly though, whilst I'm a bit disappointed in this, I'm not overly keen on seeing more mopey Jack + Kate scenes :nuts:
As an aside, did we see what made Sayid stop working for Ben in one of the flash-forwards of S4? Was just interested as we saw him working on the houses in this episode, but I've forgotten how his previous arc with Ben ended , which would have been a few months to a year ago in the current timeline.
That's it though. I think the the characterisation is so good that I can't believe in Jack's complete 180 as it stands. We know him well enough to see how determined he was to get off the island, we saw that in countless episodes, so just imagine how difficult it should be to get him to go back.
This wasn't a sudden 180. He'd been off the island for three years and his life had gradually gotten worse and worse. He has the burden of the lies, his relationship with Kate has disintegrated, he has no close family or friends, he's going down the same alcohol induced crisis that his father did, and his career has gone down the pan. All this time he's remembering Ben's words that he needed to stay on the island and that if he didn't he'd regret it, so much so that he told Kate he's taking long haul flights every week in an attempt to get back to the island.
Is it really so hard to believe he'd go along with Ben? :shrug:
GAmbrose
03-03-2009, 14:27
As an aside, did we see what made Sayid stop working for Ben in one of the flash-forwards of S4? Was just interested as we saw him working on the houses in this episode, but I've forgotten how his previous arc with Ben ended , which would have been a few months to a year ago in the current timeline.
No, but I am sure we will find out. He said he worked for Ben for 2 years didn't he?
Gary A
I'm still interested in if Ben killed Penelope and if Desmond is dead too but Desmond put up a fight hence why Ben looked like edit before the flight. He talked about fulfilling a promise and I remember he told Widmore that as he killed his daughter he was going to do the same to him
enemy2pc
03-03-2009, 19:32
I think it's a given that Desmond isn't dead otherwise it would make the whole Eloise "the Island isn't finished with you Desmond!" thing redundant.
also, although there's no obvious timeframe difference between Lockes car crash and his death, he does seem to have moved out of the hotel and into his own apartment, which would indicate a couple of weeks at least. IMO that is:thumbs:
Regards
Bryan
William Shatners Wig
03-03-2009, 20:58
Is it right that there's no Lost this week in the US? How about Sky?
Quincunx
03-03-2009, 21:24
Is it right that there's no Lost this week in the US? How about Sky?
LaFleur's shown in America tomorrow and the next episode is 2 weeks later. No idea about Sky though.
So much for "no breaks"! :oh-hum:
Is it right that there's no Lost this week in the US? How about Sky?
Looks like its still on Sky1 on Sunday:
Lost
Sunday 08 March
9:00pm - 10:00pm
Sky1
Lefleur
Drama series following the survivors of a plane crash. Sawyer perpetuates a lie with the castaways to prevent them from the repurcussions of past mistakes.
VIDEO Plus+: 42601
Widescreen, High definition
But then nothing for the week after.
Cant see Sky showing it before its been shown in the US, so I would imagine we would have to wait as well.
William Shatners Wig
04-03-2009, 18:12
Ta.
Just wondering back to when Jack went to see Lock in the coffin at the end of S3... Was he clean shaven or bearded? Also, when he saw him this season, it seemed as if it was for the first time. Is this a continuity error?
Bearded. After the Jack/Ben at the funeral place scene, Ben and Jack go back to a hotel where Jack shaves.
hah! there are rarely continuity errors in Lost, its almost like an exampleof how to do a TV series without one. I've spotted a couple of errors though recently - both when Ben and Locke talk about a) the Freighter exploding and b) Jin been killed on the freighter. As far as I can see neither Locke or Ben could know about this as they were in the Orchid at the time. Straight after that ben went to Tunisia and Locke went to the Others.
Just wondering back to when Jack went to see Lock in the coffin at the end of S3... Was he clean shaven or bearded? Also, when he saw him this season, it seemed as if it was for the first time. Is this a continuity error?
It was the first time he'd seen him since leaving the Island. This episode was set before the season 3 finale: the O6 have been off the Island for 3 years, Locke visits them all and then dies, and later Jack sees him in the coffin.
hah! there are rarely continuity errors in Lost, its almost like an exampleof how to do a TV series without one.
There's an article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/arts/television/18wyat.html?pagewanted=all) about script coordinator Gregg Nations, who keeps track of everything to ensure continuity is maintained. As if flashbacks weren't hard enough, this time-travel business must make his job very hard indeed.
There was a note I liked in this article (http://lost-media.com/2008/11/16/more-infos-about-the-screenwriting-expo/) about the screenwriters' expo: Sometimes, Gregg Nations will come up to Damon and Carlton and say that there is a continuity error with flashbacks where a newspaper date will be inconsistent with the story and instead of trying to fix it through effects for the DVD, Damon just says “**** you”.
I've spotted a couple of errors though recently - both when Ben and Locke talk about a) the Freighter exploding and b) Jin been killed on the freighter. As far as I can see neither Locke or Ben could know about this as they were in the Orchid at the time. Straight after that ben went to Tunisia and Locke went to the Others.
When did Locke talk about it? He would have found out after meeting up with Sawyer in the 50s.
KennyVader
05-03-2009, 15:00
It's reasonable to expect Ben to know about the freighter, after all he put Michael on there (with fake bomb) and he had Keamy in front of him in the Orchid with the remote trigger.
AdamBrunt
05-03-2009, 22:27
it's not clear how long Locke is off the island for but ... how come he doesn't recognise the 2 canoes on the beach (when only a few _____ earlier in his 'timeline' he helped steal one and was shot at for doing so) ?
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