Guitarport Rifftracker? Any good? Or are there better alternatives for guitarists?

[Stevie G]

I want to get something that will let me quickly and easily record basic tracks from guitar (for fun use, not bothered about final recording quality at the moment!)

Looking around Line 6's Guitar Port Rifftracker looks really cool, and an easy way to select a drum track and record my own rhythym and lead guitar. Has anyone used it and can recommend it? Or are there better alternatives for similar money? Is the USB recorder good quality? Would it be fine for my electro acoustic as well?

I'd rather do recording on PC than a mini 4/8 track just because it's so much easier to manipulate and edit, delete parts, etc.

Any advice or alternative recommendations would be much appreciated!

Cheers guys!

One other thing..... not sure if I can ask in here, so apologies if not, but which are the best user forums for guitarists? That cover all levels, and that are actually helpful?

Cheers!

[DeadYankee]

I use a USB Line6 Toneport and it is great - can't fault it. I would guess this would be similar

[Stevie G]

Encouraging.....! What recording software do you use? I like the idea of this as it has software with it, and seems pretty good for guitarists who want the drum track pretty much doing for them!

[DeadYankee]

I use Ableton live which is bundled with Toneport. I use Battery3 or Grooveagent for the drums. Grooveagent is pretty much plug n play. Even at the simple level there is a steep learning curve early on and then things get much easier. You need a fair bit of RAM or you get some nasty latency problems so your playing takes a second from hitting the string to hitting the speaker. Depends how much you want to spend and experiment but the Toneport with integral midi keyboard is a good investment IMO

If you mail me I can send you more details of what stuff I have used

[GlennSh]

I like the Line 6 stuff (only have a Pocket Pod at the mo). Plan on getting some recording gear later - so whats the difference between the rifftracker & the UX2 ? Just different software ??

Cheers

[Stevie G]

CHeers Dead Yankee, will do.
I've downloaded a demo of Rifftracker to see what it's like before getting the Guitarport Rifftracker pack, but it says I need a Line6 device to use with it.... doh! I've got an old Novation Speedio USB device and was hoping that would be able to record to Rifftracker so I could get an idea of how the software works, but Rifftracker is asking for ASIO drivers and won't find the Speedio.

[GlennSh]

A generic ASIO driver is available @ ASIO4ALL.com
Not sure if it will get the s/w to work though but good luck...

[Stevie G]

Just to update (and cos I'm a little stuck!), I've downloaded a few trial programs and a few less legit programs (just for evaluation purposes - I ain't paying shedloads for software until I know I can use it!)

I've tried Sonar, Acid Pro 6, Guitar Tracks and Ableton. The problem I seem to be having is getting any of them to accept audio from my Novation Speedio whilst playback audio through my speakers at the same time. They all seem to want to use either the Speedio or the built in sound card drivers (Realtek HD) for both audio in and out, and I can't seem to tell them to accept audio from the Speedio, but to play back all audio (including wave files) through the speakers! Damn thing is really getting on my nerves! I'm thinking I make have to invest in something like the Toneport for audio capture, even if I don't go for the Rifftracker package.

Can anyone suggest what I might be doing wrong?

I've found a VSTi that does drums, so really I need to settle on a program that will record the drums directly from that, so if I can work out recording from the guitar, I can use that to record the drum tracks, then jam over the top.

Acid Pro is looking the easiest so far, although the legit version is too expensive so I'll probably plump for one of the cheaper versions (should still do what I need!)

Still tempted by the Guitarport on it's own though, as it includes all the guitar effects. Have to see though.....! I'll keep fiddling to see if I can work the damn things out!

[KeyserSoze]

Get reaper - http://www.cockos.com/reaper/

Its shareware but never expires.

Dont use Ableton for guitar music, I think Reaper is better.

Ddi you try ASIO4ALL as Glenn suggested?

In the Reaper options, you can choose your input and output devices.

Oh and which VSTi are you looking at for drums?

[Stevie G]

Just downloading Reaper to try....cheers for that!

The drums VSTi is Groove Agent 2, which Dead Yankee mentioned. Seems pretty simple but effective for basic drum tracks!

Yes, I've got ASIO4ALL installed. That seems to be working effectively, although in most programs ASIO4ALL and Speedio show up as seperate options, so I can't seem to use both.

[KeyserSoze]

In the actual ASIO4ALL settings you should see both Realtek and novation. You could try disabling output on novation and input on Realtek.

[DeadYankee]

I use ableton for guitar music all the time - it is great, no problems whatsoever.

[Stevie G]

I've been into the ASIO4ALL settings and found what you mean.... I've disabled input via Realtek and output via Speedio. Unfortuantely, when I go into Acid Pro it still doesn't give me seperate options for input and output. The options are basically Windows drivers (which plays back the drum wav track), ASIO4ALL (which also plays it back and says all inputs and outputs through Realtek) or Speedio, which changes all inputs and outputs to the Speedio, and greys them out so that I can't change any.

:thinking:

I'll try the settings with Ableton, see if that allows it, although Acid Pro is clearly the easiest to use so far (for me anyway!)

[GlennSh]

I'm fairly new to Ableton myself but after the initial fumbling around not knowing what I was doing I started to like it and found it actually rather intuitive. There's loads of useful help info built into the app itself, as well as videos on their website (and You Tube)
Cheers

[Stevie G]

Can't get Ableton to run now! Think it may be because of the other dodgy audio software I've installed to test! :lol: Keeps getting a runtime error and crashing, even after a reinstall! Teach me, I guess! Glad I'm testing it all on my desktop (which I regularly restore to fresh OS install image!) and not my laptop!

[Stevie G]

Na, bloody thing. Nothing seems to like the Speedio too much. I've tried loads of options, but it's all either one or the other - sound in and out through the Speedio (ie I can record guitar but I can't hear anything played back, including what I'm playing or the drum track, etc) or in and out through the soundcard, in which situation I can hear what's played back but I can't record.

I think I need to get something better than the Speedio. I'm just feeling very cautious about buying something that still may not work! Had enough of it for today, anyway!

[KeyserSoze]

I thought you had a go with Reaper?

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7067/reaperpq4.jpg

Does Speedio have a headphone out? Do you not get anything from that? I dont see how other audio interfaces will work any differently to be honest.

[Stevie G]

Yeah, the Speedio has a headphone out, and that works. I can capture audio from the Speedio, I just can't have any audio playback at the same time, which makes it pointless.

I can select the seperate devices in Reaper. Trouble is, Reaper won't work with the Groove Agent VST instrument, and I need that for the drum track. I'll keep persevering.... not worked out how to actually record owt in Reaper yet!

[KeyserSoze]

Oh, what do you mean by playback audio at the same time?

If its coming through the headphone, is that not the output you are looking for?

[Stevie G]

No, I want to be able to hear both the captured guitar audio and the drum (and any other audio tracks) being played back via the PC's speakers. With Acid Pro I can only either hear playback of what's recorded, or record with no audio being heard!

I've tried Reaper; that works in that I can record guitar and hear it through the PC's speakers, but the problem with Reaper is that it won't accept VST instruments, so I can't use Groove Agent with that (and when I tried to drop in a drum wav I made with Acid Pro from Groove agent it wouldn't play it back).

I've tried Sonar; that will let me record guitar and hear what I;m playing, but that won't find Groove Agent (it finds the other VST instruments but not that!)

I've tried Guitar Tracks Pro, but that won't let me use Groove Agent, or import a drum wav.

I've tried Acid Music Studio, but that's MIDI only (seems like a basic version of Acid Pro without audio tracks or VSTi use) so that's no good.

I've tried uninstalling Ableton and reinstalling it but that still won't run without crashing each time!

I'm downloading a version of Cubase to try, as maybe that will do what Sonar does but also let me use GrooveAgent.

To be honest, Acid Pro is clearly my favourite, but I just can't get the damn thing to accept input from the Speedio and output of audio to the soundcard.

When it does work the recording from the Speedio is really laggy and sometimes glitchy, so I am thinking it's a pretty dated (and not really that good!) way of capturing guitar. My PC is Core 2 Duo, so it's no slouch, although only 1gb of memory (running XP Pro).

I'm still looking at possibly the Guitar Port, or maybe even the Tone Port UX1. What's the difference between those two, does anyone know?

Cheers

[GlennSh]

Re your Sonar problem (I've never used it but just seeing what you've written) it seems odd it finds other VSTs but not groove Agent. did you install that to a different directory (I assume you can point Sonar to tell it which VTS directory/ies to use ??)

I've only been using Ableton for playing around with samples and (inspired by your post :D) will today have a play around with recording aswell :thumbs:

PS Did you install the demo version of Ableton or are you trying a version from "elsewhere" ?

[DeadYankee]

I've never recorded whilst playing through speakers - I do everything with headphones coming out of my guitar interface (toneport). it will play both the guitar and the backing together no problem in any software package.

If you have latency problems (lag) then it may be your speedio that is at fault but, TBH, 1GB ram is about the basic minimum for using your pc for recording.

I only use ableton to record and it picks up Grooveagent no problem at all. I don't think you need to use it as a VSTi though. Just open grooveagent and set it playing and then record it as a midi input.

[Stevie G]

Yeah, the version of Ableton is an 'alternative' version. Perhaps I'll try the demo.....I don't mind paying for software if I know it'll work, so I'll try that later.

I think it is the Speedio that's causing the problems, as with some things it's fine, but with others there's a mixture of lag and terrible sound. When I've got something to record the guitar I've not been able to listen to what's recording (or playback of audio on the PC), but then when I;ve played back what I just recorded (after changing the audio devices to the soundcard) it sounds great. I think I do need to use a decent capture device.

Is there much difference in Guitarport and Toneport? The Toneport is slightly cheaper, and both seem to use the Gearbox tone software, but are there any other differences that would swing it either way for what I need? I'm assuming both would work more effectively with most of the packages above.....?

Re Sonar and Groove Agent, I'll have a look to see if I can point it in the right direction, as I do really like Grrove Agent and it makes a drum track really easily.

[GlennSh]

Yeah, the version of Ableton is an 'alternative' version. Perhaps I'll try the demo.....I don't mind paying for software if I know it'll work, so I'll try that later.

I completely agree (wasnt on some sort of moral highground ;))
It could be that the cracked version is causing you problems, whereas the latest demo version on ableton site is (obviously) meant to work as is
See how you get on. It would be a shame to dismiss Live at the first hurdle :)

[GlennSh]

I've never recorded whilst playing through speakers - I do everything with headphones coming out of my guitar interface

Surely everything would have to be monitored through speakers as otherwise you'd get horrendous feedback (or tracks bleeding though at the least) ??

[KeyserSoze]

No, I want to be able to hear both the captured guitar audio and the drum (and any other audio tracks) being played back via the PC's speakers. With Acid Pro I can only either hear playback of what's recorded, or record with no audio being heard!

I've tried Reaper; that works in that I can record guitar and hear it through the PC's speakers, but the problem with Reaper is that it won't accept VST instruments, so I can't use Groove Agent with that (and when I tried to drop in a drum wav I made with Acid Pro from Groove agent it wouldn't play it back).

I'm still looking at possibly the Guitar Port, or maybe even the Tone Port UX1. What's the difference between those two, does anyone know?

Cheers

Yeah as DY said, you should monitor everything through one device. Not sure why the Speedio cannot do this.

From here, go to ASIO4ALL options and disable both input and output for the Realtek device. Enable both for the Speedio.

Reaper can use VSTs. After creating a new track, click on the FX button to load it with VSTs. You may need to scan the folder first though, you can do this from Preferences/Options.

As for differences between GP and TP, I think TP has more inputs? Guitar/Instrument plus Mic. Whereas GP is geared just for guitar.

I have a UX2, its great. I also have a PodXt which is pretty similar but all guitar processing is done on the hardware and not the PC. Bought the UX2 cos its smaller and doesnt require an AC adapter.


Oh and Ableton has been known to break with cracked versions ;)

[Stevie G]

Right then....!

Firstly Ableton....just tried the demo version, but that crashes in exactly the same way. A runtime error causes it to crash after it starts up, so maybe I've corrupted something on the PC that's affecting it.

Second.... progress is being made a little (both physically and in my head!)

When I change input and output to the Speedio and plug headphones into the Speedio's headphone socket I can hear both my guitar playing and the drums from Groove Agent, and I can hear the recorded tracks through the headphones (although obviously not the speakers) on playback, although there is an amount of glitchyness.

Perhaps I've been hopeful in what I wanted to do, in that I want to record into the PC and hear all audio (guitar and all audio tracks) played back via the PC's speakers. There's no lag when listening to it all through the Speedio, but it's not quite what I wanted (although I guess I could plug the PC's speaker into the Speedio for monitoring). I was just hoping I could basically use the PC as a multitrack, create audio drum tracks, play them back and record guitar as a new track at the same time.

I think I didn't realise that the PC sees the Speedio as another sort of 'soundcard', so would let it act just as a seperate device, as opposed to share duties with the main soundcard. Would a Guitarport/Toneport be the same, or is it seen as a different type of device seperate to soundcards?

Re the Toneport/Guitarport, how does it work? I'm assuming the actual device captures the audio, gets it onto the PC and then any sounds and effects are done in software? Is that wrong? Is all the sound processing controlled in software but actually done on the Toneport/Guitarport, and the processed audio recorded and/or sent out via the audio output?

[DeadYankee]

Whether you are using Toneport/Guitarport/Speedio or whatever then you are using essentially the same thing. It is just a hardware interface which translates the analogue signal from your guitar or microphone into a signal which the computer can process. This is RAM intensive and thus you may get lag. It is also, as you have noted, a surrogate soundcard. I would advise that you use it with headphones to do your recording and then do your playback through your speakers. Else you will definitely get lag as your signal gets sent from Speedio to your soundcard. This will be the same whether you use toneport or speedio or whatever. I'd stick with what you've got TBH - if you decide to buy another interface then I'd advise buying an M-Audio device and this will allow you to use the M-Powered "Pro-tools" which can be bought for about £150.

As for drum tracks etc - your recording software - which is a multi-track recorder (ablteon will certainly let you add many many tracks of midi and audio), will pick this up as you use it either via VST or running standalone. Recording MIDI can also be done via a USB midi keyboard.

I understand that this may not be what you expected or wanted from your pc recording suite but this is how they work - you just need to recalibrate your expectations and start again.

I would start by sticking your headphones on. Set a drum pattern. Record a drum loop from that. Set it playing and arm another guitar track. Play a guitar loop. Edit it so you have a tight loop and let that play with the drum track. Add another guitar track. Add a bass track. You can add all these whilst keeping it all on the headphones - so whilst you are not getting it through your speakers you are still hearing it live and without latency.

This is pretty sophisticated software which allows you to do some amazing things for little money. It isn't a walk in the park and you need to invest time in it and, in my opinion, keep it simple and take it a stage at a time. Don't tryand use every piece of software under the sun on day one.

there are loads of VSTs which will allow you to add loads of effects and help you mix. Look into these once you get the basics down. The dryer you record your guitar the less latency you'll get - add the effects post recording if you get latency.

[DeadYankee]

You Tube has tutorials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMg34DXvfB4

also
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/02/16/ableton_intro.html

[Gerschwin]

Check out Kristal (http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/)

[Stevie G]

Yeah, I guess that would make sense.

It's just frustrating; it's fine with electric, but when I want to record my electro acoustic I'd rather not be listening through headphones, but I guess if that's a reasonable expectation I can't.

One reason for looking at the Line6 devices (Guitarport/Toneport) is that you get the Line6 effects and sounds included; how does that work? Do you select the amp and effects on the PC and when the USB device sends the audio to the PC an out through the headphones/speaders it's already applied the effects? Of does it record clean and you have to apply the effects after?

I'm not really into really heavy effects but do like to play with some of the more bluesdy sounds (and especially Dave Gilmour type sounds!)

[douglasb]

Think about recording vocals: what would happen if you could hear your voice coming out the speakers when you were signing? It'd be feeding back into the mic, through the speakers, into the mic, through the speakers ....

That's why people wear phones when singing.

[DeadYankee]

Steve, you get effects with the Line 6 software (gearbox) and these are applied "live".

You can also get standalone effects which you can apply live or post recording. There are some great, commercial guitar packages which will work with your existing audio interface - check out "Guitar Rig" as it is aweseome. You can also get some amazing effects by finding individual plug ins for delay, reverb etc but, having said that, gearbox is pretty good as an all rounder if you want to go down the route of new hardware.

[Stevie G]

Ah, ok. I'm still not being able to get Ableton to run, but I'll be restoring my desktop from a clean image soon so will try to install the demo after that, as it sounds pretty good and I'd like to give it a try.

I like the idea of being able to apply the guitar effects live, but would that add to any possible lag (assuming playback is via headphones from the USB device - I'm coming to accept the lag limitations that USB will give me)? I'll want to be able to hear the track being played back plus the effected guitar and for it all to be in time with each other (if that makes sense!)

Found Guitar Rig..... I'll have a look at it...!

[Stevie G]

Just a thought..... if I select audio in and out in the sequencer as being the Speedio, but then feed the audio out of the SPeedio into the audio in on the Realtek soundcard, how would that sound? Would that play back accurately and without lag?

[DeadYankee]

Massive lag I'd think but worth a try

[Stevie G]

I'm still frustrated at not being able to audition Ableton, so think I'll try the proper trial on my laptop, even if it's probably not ideal enough.

What's the difference between the full version and Ableton Lite? Is Lite only available as part of packages, such as the TonePort, etc where it's bundled free?

[douglasb]

Yeah. The Lite version only allows you 1 or 2 midi tracks and maybe limits the amount of effects you can use or something. Full version is £300 or thereabouts.

[Stevie G]

What about audio tracks? I'd probably mostly record audio tracks, whether via, guitar or VST instruments. Don't need loads, but it'd be nice to have at least 8!

[douglasb]

I think you get unlimited audio tracks. DY will be able to say either way.

[DeadYankee]

I think it is 4 tracks on ableton lite. It was pretty restrictive

Full version you may as well treat it as unlimited as there are lots of tracks, more than you'd ever need.

I just replaced my toneport (as I broke it) with the new Toneport GX. Single input. Volume control. Works with Ableton live and comes with Gearbox. All for £40.

[Stevie G]

The full version of Live? I'm still looking at the Toneport/Guitarports, and was going to list the pros and cons of each before deciding, but I'd not considered the GX (on the probably silly assumption that the bottom model in most ranges are usually more limited in options and features). I will read up on that one as well.

[DeadYankee]

It is more limited in that it doesn't have the extra inputs and variety of mic sockets. It does the basics though.

It "works" with Ableton Live. It doesn't come with a copy though. I'm sure that shouldn't prove to be too much of a hindrance though

[Stevie G]

Ah, ok, I'm with you. Sorry, misread that it was included.
The 'version' of Ableton I tried keeps crashing (a runtime error) and no amount of uninstalling and reinstalling will fix it (even the trial version won't run!) so I'd need to do a OS reinstall before it has any chance of working on that PC. So I guess the thing I need to decide is if I need the extra inputs of the VX1 or if the GX is sufficient (still like the idea of Rifftracker but the demo only works with Line6 products, which means I either have to chance it and buy it, or buy the GuitarPort on it's own then the software after..... duh!)

[Stevie G]

Now then.....!

I've got my M-Audio keyboard, and have managed to get Ableton to run. After spending a few hours playing around with it I like Ableton, and it seems pretty easy to use, plus it lets my keyboard control the VSTi's I've installed so far (may be asking for recommendations for a good range of VSTi's that have a good range of sounds soon....!), which Acid Pro didn't (it would only speak to V-Synth), so I'm definately going to stick with this for the foreseeable. I got a copy of Ableton 6 Lite with the keyboard as well, so if I have probs with this 'version' I have of 7 I can go back to that for now.

Going back to an earlier query I had with audio lag (which was answered in relation to the issue at that time!), I've got a slightly different problem.

The keyboard works great, but there is always a slight delay in each key being pressed, about quarter of a second. At the moment I have the audio output (still) as the (Realtek) sound card, so when it's played via the speakers there's the lag.

Before, when I selected the Speedio as the audio input and output and listened via headphones there was no lag. If I get a Toneport does that act as another soundcard (I won't be using the SPeedio if I get a Toneport)? Does it have the outputs to let me connect a Toneport to a pair of speakers (or an amp and speakers) and have it play back all audio recorded, etc in Ableton through that? If not, what is the best way to have it set up for playing live keyboards? It's not much fun playing a tune with constant audio lag, so there must be a way around that!

[DeadYankee]

Yes you can output to a speaker instead of headphones direct from the toneport. The UX2 has all kinds of audio outs on the back I think

Still don't understand why you need a toneport if you have the speedio and it works ok

When I record I channel everything through ableton via the toneport. I use headphones when recording then I switch out put to the normal soundcard to play back and mix via speakers

re the soft synths. Native instruments (NI) make some great ones - the B4 Hammond is phenomenal

[Stevie G]

The Speedio doesn't allow me to apply any guitar effects live, it just records the clean sound, whereas (from what I understand) the Toneport does, and it looks easy to control via Gearbox.

I'll have a look at the NI VSTi's, see what I can find ;)

[KeyserSoze]

Gearbox would be the same as using something like Guitar Rig with a Speedio. It is complete software, Toneport just acts as soundcard.

Not sure how much GR costs, maybe it will cost the same as a TonePort.

[Stevie G]

Guitar Rig costs over £200 according to http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~Native-Instruments-Guitar-Rig-3---Software-Edition~ID~7733.asp!

Bit above my budget!

Hmmm, getting a little confused about Gearbox now....! Looking on the Line6 web site it looks like you have to buy a seperate Gearbox plug in to allow you to record into a recording program. Is that right, or have I misread it? I can't see what else the plugin would be for.

[KeyserSoze]

To be honest, I have no idea what the plugin has over the standalone software.

But you can simply load Gearbox (standalone version) in the background which will apply real time effects and route through as the audio input. Simply arm the track to record from the Toneport in your host and it will record with effects no problem.

[DeadYankee]

I record with gearbox - I have bought no new plug in

[Stevie G]

Ah, ok, thanks, that clears that up! I've tried a version of Guitar Rig 3 I found.... seems great, but it only lasted 5 mins before telling me it was unlicensed and closed it down! Oh well, Gearbox will hopefully be a poor mans equivalent!

[DeadYankee]

Worth thinking about if you want some high end hardware too

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/30470

[Stevie G]

Looks pretty cool, but out of my budget for now! Trying to get Guitar Rig 3 to work.... foound GR2 as well so I'll try that if 3 doesn't work

[Stevie G]

Thought I'd bring a close to this thread and thank everyone for their help and advice.

I plumped for the Toneport UX1 in the end (as it's got the mic input as well as guitar). Had it a few weeks and think it's excellent, and really Geabox. I actually prefer Gearbox to the Guitar Rig 2 'demo' I installed, so I'm going to stick with that. I also settled for Ableton as my DAW - cheers Dead Yankee for that. It was well worth the persistance! :thumbs:

I'm actually getting a GX as well so I can keep the UX1 connected to my desktop and have the GX to use with my laptop, but I'll see how it goes!

[KeyserSoze]

Nice one, enjoy it!

I recently dug out my UX2 to plug into my Mac for the first time. Forgot how good it is. Could play with delay for hours on end.