Recommend a...

[ChrisBlack]

Sorry for keeping you in suspenders, but its actually....

Recommend a Home Study Course.

Photography related, naturally. I'm looking for an "out" from my current role, but have only recently got into photography in a big way. I've kind of mooched around photography related sites, drooling at others works, for the past year, but have only recently acquired a dSLR.

I'm desperate (not sure if that's a wise choice, grammatically..) to become a professional photographer, but its extremely early days. I've had to wait for both my kids to start school full time (my youngest has just started) and for me to have some rest days from work where I don't have family commitments, to go out and take some shots.

I'd like to have posted a "Can a Pro Photographer in the Manchester area let me go out with them and carry their bags/assist" thread, but I fear it may have been ignored (perhaps rightly so), but I need as much flexible exposure to the profession as possible, as I learn best buy watching and trial and error.

However, I think that acquiring some sort of vocational qualification, especially home study, at my age shows a certain amount of determination and commitment, and as such, I'd like to choose a course that is widely respected.

I'm resigned to taking the slow path and irritatingly bothering people in the field (a friends wedding is imminent :lol: ) on a sporadically intermittent basis, however, I guess what I'm looking for, from anyone who can help, is sound, invaluable advice, as to taking steps towards a massive change of career, bearing in mind I work full time, shifts and a profession that my friends, family and peers respect (notice the omission there?).

Oh, and a home study course. Yeah, that too :thumbs:

[puddleduck]

I'll bet no professional photographer ever did a course.

Really with digital you can just teach yourself, also remember Pros and especially semi Pros are 10 a penny, its dead easy to get paid work tbh, BUT its getting enough paid work to support a family. In fact I can't think of anything less concerned with bits of paper aka qualifications frankly - the only "bits of paper" that count is your portfolio.

I'll bet thats the same for other folks... I really think a course will be a waste of time and money.

EDIT - This reads negative, its supposed to be encouraging! Don't waste time on courses, just build up a portfolio.

[ChrisBlack]

Surely, it could be an expeditious way of learning though, non?

[puddleduck]

How? As long as you can turn your camera on, what else do you need to learn?

I bet out of the folks earning money here, not one person has done a couse. Just get out and do it. Experiment - learn to understand light and you're well on the way.

EDIT - Again, it sounds negative, but I think you should just get out and do it. Its a bit like those "learn to be an author / rocket scientist / topless model courses" you see advertised - for every hopeful enrollee, most folks just write books, or get their norks out for The Sun without needing any formal training :)

[Bish]

From a newcomers view I can get all the basic information I need from magazines and the internet. However after that I agree it's a case of getting out (or staying in) and taking photos.

I doubt I'd spend money on a course even a home study one.

[ChrisBlack]

I take your point, PD, I really do.

I trawl through various sites too, such as morguefile.com and silverlight, but ultimately, and I hate to say it, I'm lazy. Along with picking my nose, its the thing I hate most about myself, and, I suppose, because there isn't the factor of "I've paid for it, so I've GOT to use it!", I can't spend the time needed, with my lovely and almost patient-to-a-fault wife, juggling her work and the kids, dog and cat, whilst I sit at the laptop reading about photography. Again. Does that make any sense? I need to show a commitment, and not just a passing fad.
I've not much kit, and, lets be honest, its not the creme de la creme, but I'm not so ignorant as to think that "kit" is all that matters. I understand, that I need to get out there, with my camera and one kit lens, and start shooting. And, of course, that is my intention. I'm hoping that now the kids are both at school full time, my Flickr page and comedically amateur blog, that are currently bereft of photos, can be added to, with a gradual (or fast, I'm not fussy :D ) increase in quality and "interestingness" the more that I upload.

Fingers crossed, eh? ;)

[Len]

I'll bet no professional photographer ever did a course.

Really with digital you can just teach yourself, also remember Pros and especially semi Pros are 10 a penny, its dead easy to get paid work tbh, BUT its getting enough paid work to support a family. In fact I can't think of anything less concerned with bits of paper aka qualifications frankly - the only "bits of paper" that count is your portfolio.

I know several professional photographers and they all did courses and all have qualifications. When one moved jobs a while back, the organisation recieved over 400 applications for the new position - most applicants didn't have any photographic qualifications are were not considered. The person who did get the job was well qualified and well experienced and certainly was not self taught.

It depends on what type of professional photographer you'd like to be, some jobs and situations require no qualificatons or experience and some require a lot.

[puddleduck]

I know several professional photographers and they all did courses and all have qualifications.

We must know different Pros... I know the RSPB and National Geo don't ask their freelance Pros for their "Lighting 101" framed certificates!

[Len]

"We must know different Pros"

More than likely. :)

Most of the pros I know, are not freelance but in-house staffers mainly for scientific, technical, industrial, commercial and law enforcement establishments. I also know a particularly brilliant, well paid fashion/portrait photographer with no qualifications, who got where he is today gaining all his experience with a lot of hard work starting at the bottom of the profession and working his way up.

[downhillbiker]

I bet out of the folks earning money here, not one person has done a couse.

Bingo. Not earnt much from it yet, but it's getting there... I'd say a more worthwhile bit of training for a professional photographer would be some sort of accounting or copyright-based law degree, if what I've had to endure so far is anything to go by.

I've never seen a photography course that has appealed to me, whatsoever. It just doesn't strike me as the type of thing that can be taught, beyond the technical aspects of how to take a photo... Anything I've learnt has been through the process of doing it badly, until other people's critique tells me I'm not getting it wrong any more - from there it's been a case of messing around to get something original and interesting.

But then, I'm probably rambling...

[Highlander]

I know several professional photographers and they all did courses and all have qualifications.

Are you sure they are qualifications, and are not just members of professional bodies? Of course, your work will need to be of a sufficient qulaity to become a member of a professional body, I would imagine?

[RobDickinson]

Heres an intresting post by someone over at arsopenforum...

"okay, my attempt at a useful response to the original question. warning! GIANT WALL OF TEXT incoming! please read only if you are interested in the excruciating details of my photography career.

9 years ago i left my law firm in northern california to attend art school in Pasadena, CA. i had convinced the admissions guy there to take a chance on me despite the lack of a decent portfolio. i spent the next 2 1/2 years learning how to set up, light and shoot everything from product to architectural photography using large and medium format cameras (i never once touched a 35mm camera the entire time i was there). we also learned how to process and print both b&w and color film, spent weeks on exposure, weeks on filters, entire semesters on portrait lighting.

i had a 'fashion' class where i learned to work with models and hair, makeup and fashion stylists. as these were actual models, it also forced us to deal with the modeling agencies, who weren't at all shy about telling you what they thought of your photographs. in some ways this was the most difficult lesson of all. here were people who had years of experience who only needed about 20 seconds to flip through your portfolio or your contact sheets to tell you that your work pretty much sucked and that unless you did a better job next time, they weren't going to send you any more girls to shoot. that's it: you suck, do a better job next time, and goodbye. it sounds harsh, but it was actually excellent preparation for when you actually started shopping your book around with Art/Creative/Photo Editors.

i left art school after i'd gotten all i thought i had needed from it and moved to chicago. i wasn't quite sure what kind of photography i wanted to do (my first mistake), but i knew i wanted to work with people, so I decided to try fashion. i also knew, from conversations with my professors and with a few friends that i made at the agencies, that my portfolio, while technically strong, needed work. i needed to work with 'better' models and, even more importantly, i needed tearsheets (literally, sheets torn from magazines). if I can make an analogy to the old golf axiom: "drive for show, putt for dough," editorial magazine work is what you do for show. it’s fun & creative, but it pays very little. you do it for the tearsheet. art and creative directors love tearsheets. they like to see books with lots of tearsheets. it makes them feel good about you because tearsheets give you legitimacy. photo editors know this and that’s why they can get away with paying you a pittance.

photo editors (and art/creative directors) also don’t give a rats ass about your money problems or your difficulties finding designer clothing or good stylists or good models. there is enough competition out there for jobs that a good portion of the books they see (and some editors see hundreds a week) are very strong. so yours needs to be as strong or stronger. 9 times out of 10 they won’t meet you face to face anyway, you dump your book off into a large pile of books on Tuesday and pick it up on Wednesday. if you’re lucky you might find a yellow post it note on an image they (presumably) liked and one of your promo cards will be missing. occasionally, they will call you back in for a face to face meeting (mainly so they can tell you how little they can afford to pay you), and even more occasionally they’ll offer you a job. typically, if they don’t know you, it will be a very small job, but enough of the small jobs might net you a medium job. there are exceptions to this, sure, but this is how it goes generally, at least for the mass market magazines. you sometimes have better luck with the fringe magazines (like Oyster, Nylon, America, Flaunt or Soma or any one of a hundred others (many of them published outside the US)) who will take submissions and sometimes print them. but these guys usually pay nothing. still it never hurts to go magazine shopping every once and a while just to see if there is one out there that fits your style. if so, try to locate the photo editor's email address and email them a link to your portfolio.

through a friend of a friend who was a photo editor at Seventeen Magazine (incidentally, the ‘friend of a friend’ method remains the best way to get photo work), i had gotten a bunch of this kind of work while i was still in LA. i was convinced at the time that this was my big break, but after a half dozen assignments, the magazine got a new editor-in-chief who brought in an entirely new team and the photo editor i had been working with got canned and that was the end of my work with Seventeen. such is the business.

the first thing i did after moving to Chicago was figure out who the top modeling agencies were, call them and try to schedule an appointment. if you have a decent portfolio that isn’t filled with glamour or soft-porn shots, they’re often willing to let you shoot their ‘new faces’ for free. once you’ve proven that you can give them shots they can use, they’ll hook you up with aspiring or established hair, makeup and fashion stylists. if they really find you reliable, they’ll start paying you to shoot their new girls and guys. it’s a win-win, you get access to resources and can build your book how you see fit (so long as you give the agencies what they need) and you may even make some equipment rental money. most importantly, you get your name out there.

never underestimate word of mouth.

which brings me to my first bit of advice. i don’t know what it is about photography, but it really brings out the asshole in some people and not just in people shooters. some of the most arrogant, socially inept knuckleheads i’ve ever met in my life are photographers. they treat their assistants like ****, they treat their models like ****, they treat their stylists like ****. don’t think people don’t talk about this behind their backs, because they do. if you get to be that photographer who assistants, models and stylists don’t want to work with, it trickles down to the bookers, producers and editors and eventually you stop getting hired, no matter how good your work is.

the flip side of this is that if you are friendly and respectful to everyone you work with- you get work from the least likely sources. a model is friends with a stylist who is friends with a magazine editor whose looking for a photographer suddenly gets your name because the model thought you were a cool guy. a booker at an agency who you are friendly with decides to change careers and ends up as an assistant photo editor somewhere and now you suddenly have a contact where you had none before. this may seem like obvious advice, but you’d be surprised at how many photographers can’t seem to grasp this.

this dovetails in with my second bit of advice. be responsible! return phone calls and emails promptly. show up on time. get contacts sheets or proofs to people when you say you are going to. don’t make excuses. again, this seems obvious, but it’s amazing how many people act surprised when you behave responsibly. it’s almost as if they’ve come to expect ‘artists’ to be flaky and unreliable and are surprised when you aren’t. take advantage of this as another way to distinguish yourself from the riff-raff.

once i had my book where i thought it should be, i started my promotional campaign. i had cobbled together a semi-professional looking website (i say semi-professional because all the ‘pro’ websites used flash, and i hate flash, so I did my best with css and javascript). i had tried direct mailing promo cards when i was in LA and found it to be a frustrating experience- expensive, time consuming and very little feedback. so i instead used my database (i use www.freshlists.com - but www.adbase.com is good too, although more expensive) to put together an email database of every Art Director, Creative Director and Photo Editor of every Ad Agency and Magazine with offices in the Midwest. i sent out around 2,500 emails or so that first time and i think i got about 30 responses, some non-committal, some encouraging and a half-dozen or so requesting meetings. when setting up the meetings, you try to suss out which images in particular caught their eye and build your book accordingly. you then put on your thickest flame retardant suit and head off to meet with them. art buyers as a class are almost pathologically risk averse. they don’t want to see your edgy avant-garde black and white images of naked models wearing unicorn masks dancing in vacant lots. they want to see pictures of pretty models holding their particular product and laughing uproariously. i’m exaggerating, but not by much. i actually had a Creative Director for one of the largest ad agencies in Chicago tell me that while he really liked the feel of my images, he wished there was more ‘product’ in them. as if his inability to imagine a can of coke in a model's hand was reason enough not to hire me. that’s how risk averse these guys are. so you nod and tell him that next time you’ll have more ‘product’ in your shots, hoping internally that there will even be a next time.

and so this is how it went in chicago for the next 2 years. calling the agencies every few weeks to get new models/stylists. sending out direct mail promos every other month, sometimes sooner, depending on whether you had any new work to show. going to meetings. going to every industry social function you could get tickets to (befriending models was good for this, they got tickets to everything) to shmooze with the ‘creatives.’ meanwhile, i was making a living doing Corporate Portraiture and Lifestyle photography for a friend of mine who owned a Marketing firm. i did photography for internal/external promotional material, web sites and business annuals. it was fairly boring work, but steady and paid well. this would become important later.

i also did a bunch of local advertising and editorial work for local magazines, boutiques, hair salons, clothing designers, etc. but I was starting to think that maybe it wasn’t going to be possible for me to make a living as a fashion photographer. but in order to be sure, i had to try new york city.

i won’t bore you too much about my year in NYC except to say that it was chicago X 1000: better models, better stylists, better magazines, more Ad Agencies and way way way more competition. in magazine foyers, i saw piles upon piles of fashion portfolios filled with tearsheets from national magazines and I sat in waiting rooms waiting for interviews next to photographers whose names i recognized who looked 10 years younger than me. that’s about when i decided i was, perhaps, in the wrong photo business.

so i went back to my Midwestern roots. i moved back home to Indianapolis, got married (had a kid), called in a few favors and have been working here ever since. i’ve almost completely given up fashion (i’m sure you aren’t surprised to hear that there isn’t much call for it in Indianapolis). i used my database to contact all of the Advertising and Marketing Agencies in Indianapolis and as my style is very different from the usual style here, i’ve gotten pretty steady work. currently, i do anything from annual reports to lifestyle to the occasional fashion gig for the local trendy boutique. i occasionally drive up to Chicago for a shoot where i still keep in contact with a load of people and i send out my email promos like clockwork every 3 months.

have i lost my love for photography? not entirely. i wish i had more resources in town to do more of the kinds of shoots i like to do- but i have to go to chicago or new york for that. the truth of it is, the ‘boring’ stuff almost always pays the best. i make a pretty good living shooting executives and boardrooms and advertisements for truck tarping systems- but it isn’t exactly what i envisioned doing when i started down this path. but i’m making a living, which is more than i can say for many of the people with whom i went to art school, who are having real difficulty accepting the fact that they might not get to make a living shooting exactly what they want to shoot.

if i was 25 and unmarried? i’d still be in new york city with all the other hungry ******** trying to live the dream..

fwiw, my current website ( i can't quite bring myself to add the commercial work yet):
http://www.jamesbetley.com"

[Len]

Are you sure they are qualifications, and are not just members of professional bodies? Of course, your work will need to be of a sufficient qulaity to become a member of a professional body, I would imagine?

I'm quite sure. I really could not mistake degree certificates for certificates for membership of a professional body, especially when I can stand in front and read them.

My 2p worth for the OP, is get out learn the camera, take photos, but also read, study, question and learn. Skill and qualification can go hand in hand.

[puddleduck]

You can do a degree in Photography - a bloke at work was telling me his wife was going to do one. I was really surprised, as I thought it was abit like doing a degree in Golf or Klingon, but there you go!

[basegreen]

There's a course at proudphotography.com, it's about £40. ONline, and has tutor feedback.. Anyone done it? Looks a bit scammy, but has had ok reviews in the press.

[ChrisBlack]

Rob - thanks for that post, it was very insightful. Definitely gave me a lot to think about. His work is outstanding, btw. Not really sure why he doesn't want to advertise his commercial stuff yet though...

PD - I'd love to be able to do a degree, but, like everything else, there's the cost and the time. I'd have to do it via OU and that would take about 5 or so years. Might check it out later though.
*wonders quickly over to OU site...*

[AndyWilson]

Photography Degrees have been around for decades - I looked into it back in 1977 when I was choosing my A-Levels! Problem was they all required Art A-Level and I can't draw a straight line even with a ruler...

There isn't an OU photography degree - only the T189 digital photography short course. I'm starting that next month, and what I really want to get out of is some constructive criticism. It's ok getting a few comments here and on Flickr - but you tend only to get positive comments. On Flickr in particular it seems if you want to get lots of comments you have to pimp for them by joining lots of groups - and even then it seems to work on a tit-for-tat "you comment on mine and I'll comment on yours" basis which tend to tell you more about how sycophantic you can be about other peoples photos than how good your own are.

In summary - you can't learn to take good photographs just by taking them. You have to learn somehow how to be a critical judge of your own work. That's what I'm missing at the moment, and that's what I hope to achieve by taking a course. I'll tell you whether it worked in January!

[silverpenguin7]

Personally. I don't think paying to do a course is worth it. I found the best way to learn was go out and try something. When it didn't work and I wanted to know why I'd look on the net, find out what I did wrong and try again. Then I'd upload photos of what I'd taken on to forums, get a slating for them and do it all again lol (its at this point I was grateful for forums where critiques are honest and not just a pat on the back to make me feel better about a rubbish picture)

If you have the basic kit, and an internet connection you have everything you need to learn. I bet all my gear on the fact there is more info on the net than in any course you could pay to do - on the net you can get the advice and help of millions, on a course your getting the advice of one person - and photography is such a broad subject one persons help or advice may not be right for you so the more info you get the better.

There again I'm not a pro, I've made a few sales here and there though (I've never actively promoted myself or contacted/submitted to any agencies or libraries though).