View Full Version : Winners of the FA cup now get Champions League place
I think this is a great idea, but no doubt it will sometimes go to 4th place as the top 4 will now go for the FA cup aswell. But as we know it's only 1 game and not 38.
Uefa president Michel Platini is set to propose a shake-up of Champions League qualification in England by handing a place to the FA Cup winners.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6961888.stm
What an absolute mockery European competitions are becoming.
unrealnils
24-08-2007, 13:42
theres an exsisting thread if you search when this was proposed month ago by Micheal!
What has it got to do with UEFA which four English teams qualify for the CL?:mad: Or is this a suggestion that all of the leagues that enter 4 teams 1 team has to be that leagues premier cup winner?
Still a crap idea however you look at it.
What has it got to do with UEFA which four English teams qualify for the CL?:mad:
Cos its their competition? :lol:
AdamBrunt
24-08-2007, 15:02
Cos its their competition? :lol:
... yet they still couldn't force the FA to put Liverpool in last year at Everton's expense.
As I said in the LFC thread, all UEFA can do is say how many 'spots' we get not who they are.
I think it's quite a good idea to be honest, Seeing as any team can win the FA cup.
It adds a wild card element to the CL.
juniorpro
24-08-2007, 15:24
I think it's quite a good idea to be honest, Seeing as any team can win the FA cup.
It adds a wild card element to the CL.
Really? Considering the winners of the F.A. Cup for the last 12 years have been either Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool, it's not much of a wild card.
I think it's quite a good idea to be honest, Seeing as any team can win the FA cup.
It adds a wild card element to the CL.
And then there's a chance that you'll get a club completely out of it's depth competeing in the CL that may not even pass the qualifiers and thus screws up the coefficient the strongest teams have built up over the years. Maybe this is what Platini is hopeful for consider his attempts to reduce the qualification spots were rejected. I wonder if he'd propose this idea if France were one of the top club coefficients in Europe.
I'm a bit confused. Does the OP understand the difference between a certaintly and a proposal?
DeadYankee
24-08-2007, 15:42
I'm a bit confused. Does the OP understand the difference between a certaintly and a proposal?
I dunno - what is a certaintly? :shrug:
cheeseypuffs
24-08-2007, 15:45
Platini seems to come up with a lot of these sort of proposals. They seem like they are aimed at benefitting the smaller nations, but in reality there is no way they will win the approval required. I get the feeling that he's trying to come across as "the people's UEFA president" when in all acuality he's done nothing but propose things :shrug:
So when one of the big four win the FA cup and they have already guaranteed themselves a CL place through their league position who then gets their place, the loser in the cup final ?
cheeseypuffs
24-08-2007, 16:25
If the arguments for the FA cup winner to be entered include that they have actually won something, then it makes it a bit of a joke to then let the runner up in. Whoever wins it could claim their place via the FA cup and so freeing up their league place :shrug:
As the article points out, this proposal won't help break the top 4 monotony. If anything it's harder to win the FA cup than finish 4th. The only way I can see it happening is they let the runners up in and even then other finalist is going to be a top 4 team unless the draw puts 2 top 4 teams against each other.
As the article points out, this proposal won't help break the top 4 monotony. If anything it's harder to win the FA cup than finish 4th. The only way I can see it happening is they let the runners up in and even then other finalist is going to be a top 4 team unless the draw puts 2 top 4 teams against each other.
How is it? You could essentially win the FA Cup without actually meeting a top-flight team, without scoring or without winning agame simply by knocking the other out in a penalty shoot out. Finishing 4th over the course of 38 games requires a lot more than that and is far more of an achievement.
unrealnils
24-08-2007, 22:38
Forget the possiblites just look back at the last ten fa cup winners and the last ten 4th placed premiership teams..............
Thats what some of us are trying to argue.
How is it? You could essentially win the FA Cup without actually meeting a top-flight team, without scoring or without winning agame simply by knocking the other out in a penalty shoot out. Finishing 4th over the course of 38 games requires a lot more than that and is far more of an achievement.
You could, but when did it last actually happen? The top of the Premier League now reads like a rank of the four wealthiest clubs, season after season. You could argue that it's not really much of an achievement either, when cash is all that determines your league placing. It might take a lot more work to finish fourth in the Premiership, but would you really believe that if Man U finish fourth this season and, say, Wigan won the FA Cup, that Man U had achieved more based on available resources? I'd say that Man U would have underachieved and Wigan would have overachieved.
It's not really a question of determining which is the greatest achievement, therefore, as you could argue the point forever. It is whether a certain achievement is worthy of a place in the Champions League. And I certainly think that the winners of the FA Cup are not sufficiently rewarded for their achievement with a place in the UEFA Cup. It also seems strange that the Champions of the Cup are denied a place in a competition called the Champions League, whereas a team finishing a mediocre fourth in the league and were Champions of Nothing gets the reward instead.
At least this would potentially open up the possibility of the Champions league to a few more clubs. Although the way that the FA Cup is going, it will still probably only make a difference once or twice every ten years, and you just know that if it was introduced, in the first season it will probably work the other way and reprieve one of the big four who missed out on that fourth place!
AdamBrunt
25-08-2007, 08:39
It also seems strange that the Champions of the Cup are denied a place in a competition called the Champions League
Since when have Cup winners ever been called Champions :lol:
You could, but when did it last actually happen? The top of the Premier League now reads like a rank of the four wealthiest clubs, season after season. You could argue that it's not really much of an achievement either, when cash is all that determines your league placing.
Right, so based on net spend this season, Portsmouth and Man City will finish in the top four?
This will be an interesting season. :nuts:
home_bas
25-08-2007, 17:51
Personally I think the competition became a joke when non-champions were included.
A 'champions' league should be for champions. Opening all that money up to four clubs means the money is always likely to be recycled between them.
Statistically much easier to bank on the 'big 4' always being in the top 4, but you could never bank on being champions. The top 4 can practically guarantee champions league income and spend in that manner, if they had to win the league to get the cash I'd bet they're tighter with the purse strings.
Since when have Cup winners ever been called Champions :lol:
champion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/champions)n. 1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
Champion is another name for the winner of a competition. It might not be used to describe the cup winner normally, but the cup winner is still more of a champion than the second, third and fourth placed teams, who by very definition cannot be champions as they didn't take first place.
Right, so based on net spend this season, Portsmouth and Man City will finish in the top four?
This will be an interesting season. :nuts:
Where did I mention anything about net spend? I said wealthiest. That isn't the same thing. The big four have years worth of investment in their sides that cannot just be overturned by a rival spending bigger than them in one summer. It has to be an ongoing thing. Pompey and Man City will need to sustain these levels of investment at a higher level than the big four for many years before they will even reach their level.
Not necessary, if a manager manages to pull off several bargain buys that turn into gold then they could challenge for the top 4 spot, of course it's incredibly difficult and requires that the manager is something of a very special one with a bit of "luck".
AdamBrunt
12-11-2007, 20:39
Looks like the crazy plan has been rejected (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/7090646.stm)
Common sense prevailing for once then. Honestly who made this man UEFA President ?
Looks like 3rd in the Premiership might qualify automatically to the group stages whilst 4th place goes in at 2nd Qualifying Round (rather than 3rd QR) though.
Stevie G
12-11-2007, 20:40
Good. Ridiculous idea. Either reduce the amount of teams competing or leave it alone. A joke to get in after winning five games against randomly (and often poor) opposition compared to the slog of a 38 game season.
Boozyuzi
12-11-2007, 22:14
The rumour is that 4th in the EPL and 2nd in the SPL is going to find it a lot harder to qualify as they will be playing 2 Qualifying rounds against other top 16 nations with only 4 places available.
6 places are to be reserved for champions of nations ranked 14 and under. They will play off for the 6 places - that's the compromise for allowing EPL 3rd place team direct access.
Could look like this -
Direct access - (22 teams)
1-3 3 teams (9)
4-6 2 teams (6)
7-12 1 team (6)
+ title holder (1) - or CH of country 13 if title holder spot not needed.
Non-Champions Qualifiers - (4 teams)
1-3 4th placed team (3)
4-6 3rd placed team (3)
7-16 2nd placed team (10)
Two round KO provides four qualifying spots.
Champions qualifiers - (6 teams)
Champions of countries 13 -52. 40(or 39) teams play three qualifying rounds to get down to 6. These 6 Champions enter the Group Stage. These 6 are Platini's "extra Champions".
unrealnils
12-11-2007, 22:18
A joke to get in after winning five games against randomly (and often poor) opposition compared to the slog of a 38 game season.
Youd think a team from outside the top 4 would win the facup sometime soon
slideymoo
12-11-2007, 23:04
I think pratini has got what he wanted. If the 4th placed teams have to play against decent teams itll free up spaces for the teams noone wants to watch play in the group stages.
pompeyfan
12-11-2007, 23:50
I think pratini has got what he wanted. If the 4th placed teams have to play against decent teams itll free up spaces for the teams noone wants to watch play in the group stages.
I think it'll be good having a bit more variety in it rather than the same old clubs all the time - give some other clubs a chance to make some money and challange the G14 sides. I used to look forward to European nights even as a neutral for the chance to see clubs rarely seen here - now it's got very stale unless you support one of the clubs always in it of course. Anyway it'll still be fixed...I mean seeded to give the money sides more chance anyway.
Andrew70
13-11-2007, 00:22
Why not just rename it "the top four from each country's top league competition".
Calling it a champions league when only one of the teams has won anything sounds more than a bit daft to be honest.
So, at the moment probably the only chance of a smaller English club jumping on the Champions League gravy train is to finish fourth in a season when a big club is having a bad year, and then to win the resulting qualifier.
Now, the fourth placed club will probably find themselves up against much stronger competition and over two qualifiers, not one. So should Pompey scrape fourth this season, they'll be playing two strong clubs from Italy and Spain, for example.
Effectively, this has closed the door to the Champions League to any English club outside the current big four, unless there is a very exceptional season (3rd place or higher) or qualifying campaign from a 'minnow'. Another win for the big boys.
DarthPearce
13-11-2007, 09:48
So, at the moment probably the only chance of a smaller English club jumping on the Champions League gravy train is to finish fourth in a season when a big club is having a bad year, and then to win the resulting qualifier.
Now, the fourth placed club will probably find themselves up against much stronger competition and over two qualifiers, not one. So should Pompey scrape fourth this season, they'll be playing two strong clubs from Italy and Spain, for example.
Effectively, this has closed the door to the Champions League to any English club outside the current big four, unless there is a very exceptional season (3rd place or higher) or qualifying campaign from a 'minnow'. Another win for the big boys.
If they have got there because one of the big 4 has had a bad season and then they struggle to qualify for the group stages then you would argue that they have no place in the competition in the first place. :shrug:
lostboy182
13-11-2007, 13:14
Platini has been well and truly crapped on here. Now instead of the 3rd and 4th place team having to qualify, the 3rd place team go in automatically!!
Granted the 4th place team have to face an extra round against a relative minnow, but they would have taken that as a small price to pay.
Platini's big idea was for the *cup winners* to have the 4th spot - that was his own personal crusade, and the ticket that he was elected on.
He was totally shafted when that was thrown out - in fact so humiliating was his climbdown that he cancelled outright his very own vaunted press conference fan-faring all of this!
Listening to Mihir Bose on Five Live, he refused all questions as he hurried past reporters, and would simply whistle the tune of "Rule Brittania" to the press! :nuts:
Either he got "crapped on", or he (along with the UEFA board) got what they originally wanted. ;)
Smoke screens all round, works all the time...
DarthPearce
13-11-2007, 13:54
I think people are making the mistake of thinking UEFA make spoting decisions when in fact they are primarily commercial decisions they are making. The truth is that the Champios League is a massive money spinner and the majority of that is through tv revenue and following on from that advertising. The big 4 English teams pull in the largest audiences and therefore any move which is likely to exclude even one of them on a regular basis is a bad commercial move.
I'm not defending the decision btw, just trying to explain it.
Guaranteed top 2/4 from Premiership/La Liga/Serie-A goes into the CL now turns into guaranteed 3/4 teams go into the CL, go figure.
Platini could be a French politician.
AdamBrunt
13-11-2007, 14:00
Platini's big idea was for the *cup winners* to have the 4th spot - that was his own personal crusade, and the ticket that he was elected on
Actually, the ticket he was elected on was getting the champions of smaller countries into the group stage automatically - which has been agreed.
AdamBrunt
13-11-2007, 14:03
Guaranteed top 2/4 from Premiership/La Liga/Serie-A goes into the CL now turns into guaranteed 3/4 teams go into the CL, go figure.
Platini could be a French politician.
4th place in the Premiership has never been a guarantee of getting into the CL proper ... just ask Everton ;)
2/4 means 2 from top 4, 3/4 meant 3 from the top 4.
AdamBrunt
13-11-2007, 14:16
2/4 means 2 from top 4, 3/4 meant 3 from the top 4.
ah, got ya.
Boozyuzi
13-11-2007, 14:55
Yeah but it will be harder for 4th placed teams from Spain, England & Italy to consistantly get through as they will have to play 2 qualifying rounds against the likes of Bayern Munich, Benfica or Ajax. This year English 3rd and 4th placed teams only had one qualifier against Toulouse & Sparta Prague.
campdave
13-11-2007, 15:01
Effectively, this has closed the door to the Champions League to any English club outside the current big four, unless there is a very exceptional season (3rd place or higher) or qualifying campaign from a 'minnow'. Another win for the big boys.
I've limited sympathy given how the Champions League has been stacked in favour of teams from Germany, Italy, Spain and England for the last five or so years.
can the OP change the misleading thread title now?
I think the only way to make it more interesting is to let the best teams play. ATM there are the best teams in Europe but also teams that pretty rubbish but come from a country where they're the best of a bad bunch. Why not have the 5th and 6th teams from England/Italy/Spain rather than the second best team in Turkey?
All they've done is created a system (in the EPL) where the top 4 now pretty much automatically qualify and play against teams that are weaker than mid-table EPL teams.
They should at least allow the winner (and maybe (semi)finalists) of the UEFA cup to enter the CL even at the qualifying round. It seems crazy that the best team in the UEFA cup can beat the winners of the CL but can't play in the CL because they happen to under perform in the league
slideymoo
13-11-2007, 17:58
I dont see how theres any benefit. The teams from the new 6 automatic places for countries 14-54 (they might as well have said 14-20) will just get owned by the big teams, devaluing the group stage even more than it is now.
I've limited sympathy given how the Champions League has been stacked in favour of teams from Germany, Italy, Spain and England for the last five or so years.
I'd go further and say that it is stacked in favour of the big teams from Italy, Spain and England. Not only do the seedings favour the big teams, but previous participation in the tournament means that teams have the financial muscle to put themselves well out of the range of clubs that aren't in the competition. This is production of a closed shop by the back door, by trying to pretend that anyone can make it whilst making it economically impossible for the vast majority of clubs to even qualify.
The inclusion of these 'new' clubs is not about letting a few minnows in, but is instead about increasing the appeal of the Champions League to new markets. For a few years these champions from the smaller nations won't be able to compete, but their financial clout will mean that they will probably be in the competition each year, reaping further financial rewards and making themselves the best team in their country by a long distance. Eventually, they'll raise themselves up to a level where they can compete on the pitch as well, but probably never enough to mean anyone but one of the big English, Spanish or Italian clubs is likely to win the trophy.
When I first got into football, almost 20 years ago now, any club could make it. Sure, the big clubs had an advantage, but it wasn't insurmountable. Those days have long gone and I doubt will ever return. I will be very surprised if any club other than Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea represents England in the Champions League in the next 20 years, let alone wins the Premiership or Champions League. Makes you wonder what the point of it all is anymore.
robzinski
13-11-2007, 18:50
Surely to make it more interesting the whole draw for the GL group stages needs to be completely random, allowing teams from the same country to play each other, and also giving the smaller clubs some hope that they get drawn against other smaller clubs.
And once you get knocked out the CL, your out of Europe. None of this, oh you've finished third in your group, have a place in the UEFA cup.
Also, get rid of the UEFA cup group stage and re-instate the Cup Winners Cup, and have both as proper 2 leg knockout competitions.
AdamBrunt
13-11-2007, 19:11
Surely to make it more interesting the whole draw for the GL group stages needs to be completely random, allowing teams from the same country to play each other, and also giving the smaller clubs some hope that they get drawn against other smaller clubs.
And once you get knocked out the CL, your out of Europe. None of this, oh you've finished third in your group, have a place in the UEFA cup.
Also, get rid of the UEFA cup group stage and re-instate the Cup Winners Cup, and have both as proper 2 leg knockout competitions.
Whilst I agree with almost all of that, the TV companies will insist that "country protection" stays. And if the TV companies pull out, the competition is screwed.
I'd love to see a European version of the FA Cup, i.e. with literally any team able to get into the Champs League.
Each year, all the teams in the top 12 say of each country's league, excluding those already in a Euro competition, go into an FA cup style one leg cup competition. Could guarentee the smaller clubs a home tie in the first round so they get some cash. The four semi-finalists are guarenteed e.g. a 3rd qually round entry to the CL, and the winner gets a big cup and pats on the back.
Comp is partially funded by CL so clubs make some money and matches have some twist to make it particularly interesting e.g. for the last 5 minutes of each half goals count double, yellow cards mean a 10 minute sin-bin, no backward throw-ins or free-kicks, no touches at all back to the keeper and so on.
lostboy182
13-11-2007, 20:28
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7093180.stm
Sounds like Platini already planning his revenge...
AdamBrunt
13-11-2007, 20:48
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7093180.stm
Sounds like Platini already planning his revenge...
Not sure how relevant that is ... England, Spain and Germany all stood to loose out from his CL plans.
The fact that, quite rightly, Plaitini as UEFA President isn't throwing all his weight behind one of his "members" bids for the WC when several others will be bidding seems a totally seperate issue to me.
Personally, I think it's about time Africa got a WC but now the "continental rotation" thing has stopped I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Personally, I think it's about time Africa got a WC but now the "continental rotation" thing has stopped I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
South Africa 2010 :shrug:
AdamBrunt
13-11-2007, 21:13
South Africa 2010 :shrug:
:doh:
lostboy182
14-11-2007, 09:05
Not sure how relevant that is ... England, Spain and Germany all stood to loose out from his CL plans.
The fact that, quite rightly, Plaitini as UEFA President isn't throwing all his weight behind one of his "members" bids for the WC when several others will be bidding seems a totally seperate issue to me.
Personally, I think it's about time Africa got a WC but now the "continental rotation" thing has stopped I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Well not sure which other major European country has come out/known to be bidding for 2018. In the interview, Platini mentioned "Netherlands" and "Russia" a few times - he even said that he is "not convinced" about England's bid - hardly a ringing endorsement, even if they were the only major European country to declare so far.
I would love to see it in Holland. All the group matches can take place in the Amsterdam Arena for all of the groups. Maybe the one after can be in Nigeria...
home_bas
14-11-2007, 09:30
I'd love to see a European version of the FA Cup, i.e. with literally any team able to get into the Champs League.
Each year, all the teams in the top 12 say of each country's league, excluding those already in a Euro competition, go into an FA cup style one leg cup competition. Could guarentee the smaller clubs a home tie in the first round so they get some cash. The four semi-finalists are guarenteed e.g. a 3rd qually round entry to the CL, and the winner gets a big cup and pats on the back.
Comp is partially funded by CL so clubs make some money and matches have some twist to make it particularly interesting e.g. for the last 5 minutes of each half goals count double, yellow cards mean a 10 minute sin-bin, no backward throw-ins or free-kicks, no touches at all back to the keeper and so on.
I think that's a great idea. :)
I still think the concept of calling it a 'Champions League' is ridiculous, made even more so as the last English club to win it haven't won the English title for years. Just call it a bloody elitist exclusive Euro League Cup instead and be done with it.
I've got absolutely no interest in the Champions League as my club (Charlton) have never got a chance of finishing in the top 4. As the money recycles itself through the top 4 over the next few years, it won't just be us Championship clubs losing interest - it will be everyone else outside the top 4.
As the CL relies on the TV money, less interest = less money = future problems... not only for the CL, but the EPL as well as the competition reduces further.
I think the only way to make it more interesting is to let the best teams play. ATM there are the best teams in Europe but also teams that pretty rubbish but come from a country where they're the best of a bad bunch. Why not have the 5th and 6th teams from England/Italy/Spain rather than the second best team in Turkey?
All they've done is created a system (in the EPL) where the top 4 now pretty much automatically qualify and play against teams that are weaker than mid-table EPL teams.
They should at least allow the winner (and maybe (semi)finalists) of the UEFA cup to enter the CL even at the qualifying round. It seems crazy that the best team in the UEFA cup can beat the winners of the CL but can't play in the CL because they happen to under perform in the league
Clutching at straws at bit there :nuts: ;)
campdave
14-11-2007, 12:09
Why not have the 5th and 6th teams from England/Italy/Spain rather than the second best team in Turkey?
Because that's clearly taking the ****?
still average joe
14-11-2007, 13:56
Gordon strachan, on Inside sport, said he reckoned there will be a Euro league in the future. Possible three leagues of 20. Either with UEFA's blessing or outwith their control. The two journalists on the show agreed that this was a prety good bet.
I have heard strachan and walter smith say this previously. There must be somthing going on in the background.
Boozyuzi
14-11-2007, 14:34
The proposal's also include another revamp of the UEFA Cup and the scrapping of the Intertoto Cup. UEFA Cup will be 12 groups of 4 teams instead of 8 groups of 5 teams. Home and away fixtures.
Right, so based on net spend this season, Portsmouth and Man City will finish in the top four?
This will be an interesting season. :nuts:
:wave:
(I know it's still early days, but I've only just read this thread and that comment stood out :D).
I'd love to see a European version of the FA Cup, i.e. with literally any team able to get into the Champs League.
The winner go into the Champions League? Why not just let the winners of the UEFA cup go into the champions league? I have my doubts that any team that isn't good enough to qualify for the UEFA cup could win such a competition
Because that's clearly taking the ****?
How is that taking the ****? It would mean the best teams in europe are in the competition rather than the best and the best of the rest. If people are complaining that it's become stale and predictable it's because the teams that might have a shot at causing an upset can't play because they're from countries that only allow 4 teams.
They should allow these teams in put they must play qualification too but then the teams that make it to the group stage don't get to play in the UEFA cup. So it'd give everyone a chance and those who aren't good enough get put in the UEFA cup and then those who are can actually compete in the group stage rather than merely participate
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