View Full Version : [F1] The Hungarian Grand Prix 2007
Panavision
31-07-2007, 18:05
Live qualifying Saturday 4 August 1230-1415 ITV1
Live race Sunday 5 August 1200-1530 ITV1
Highlights Monday 6 August 0045-0145 ITV1
Highlights re-run Monday 6 August 1800-1900 ITV4
Unless it rains, I think this will be a snoozefest. If there's one GP that needs to go, then it's this one.
Vettel moves to Torro Rosso replacing Scott 'lack of' Speed - just kidding, he gave Tonio a run for his money, but was treated harshly by the team.
The FIA has referred the verdict of the McLaren and Ferrari spying case to its Court of Appeal following a request by the Italian motorsport commission.
Vettel moves to Torro Rosso replacing Scott 'lack of' Speed - just kiddingNo reason to be apologising for that, its perfectly fair.
He had his chance, wasnt quick enough, and failed miserably to do whats required of him at the back of the grid: staying out of trouble off the start. If anything he seemed to have a talent for getting involved in every possible first corner accident, creating his own if there wasnt someone elses to get involved in.
Bottom line is he wasnt good enough to progress beyond a back of the grid team, theres a long line of young drivers waiting to get their chance: lets see what Vettel has to offer when hes given more than 1 race to prove himself.
rbullivant
31-07-2007, 20:26
He got a season and a half in F1. More than most get, guess he just couldn't cut it
R
Panavision
01-08-2007, 10:27
I think Tonio will get the boot, too.
The Bear
02-08-2007, 20:24
I see we provisionally have 18 races next season, compared to 17 this year.
In come Singapore and Valencia (street circuit).
Date Race Circuit
16-Mar Australia Melbourne
23-Mar Malaysia Sepang
06-Apr Bahrain Bahrain International Circuit
27-Apr Spain Barcelona
11-May Turkey Istanbul
25-May Monaco Monaco
08-Jun Canada Montreal (*provisional*)
22-Jun France Magny-Cours
06-Jul Britain Silverstone
20-Jul Germany Hockenheim
03-Aug Hungary Hungaroring
24-Aug Europe Valencia
07-Sep Italy Monza
14-Sep Belgium Spa Francorchamps
28-Sep Singapore Singapore
12-Oct China Shanghai
19-Oct Japan Fuji
02-Nov Brazil Interlagos
I also notice that Ross Brawn is back in talks with Ferrari, so we may see him back there next season.
Right then, Thread-meet-up in Valencia?
Looking forward to the Race if a little concerned about the pace of the Ferrari's compared to the McLarens. I suppose 3rd and 4th won't be catastrophic for Massa/Kimi, well apart from maybe Kimi. :(
Saw FP2 today on Speed TV
Hamilton spun the car and beached it in the gravel with 5 mins to go, he could have tried to get reverse to reverse out but he drove forward instead and beached himself.
Then again reverse would have been dangerous as it was right on the exit of the corner before the right left chicane.
I think Tonio will get the boot, too.
Yes Bourdais to TR next season surely? Has to get a chance in F1
Who is that on commentary instead of Brundle?
EDIT: Its Damon Hill :D
Right then, Thread-meet-up in Valencia?
Looking forward to the Race if a little concerned about the pace of the Ferrari's compared to the McLarens. I suppose 3rd and 4th won't be catastrophic for Massa/Kimi, well apart from maybe Kimi. :(
Well the pace is as suspected (since Monaco) but i forgot about the gremlins too.
Wow, that was a crappy thing to do :(
Rabbi of Caerbannog
04-08-2007, 13:02
How ****** was Alonso there!!!
Absolutely ******* disgrace that was from Alonso - Ron Dennis looks absolutely furious!
If Ron Dennis has any sort of credibility or integrity, he will pull Alonso from the race and fine him big time. Personally, I'd sack him as he has no commitment to the team, only himself. Scum of the highest order to my mind! :mad:
Pretty poor show from Alonso, although it does show he's got the same killer instinct as Schumacher. Should make the rest of the season more entertaining though!!
First corner tomorrow will be interesting.
:lol:
That's the way Alonso is, it's hardly out of line with his character, quite the opposite.
BaggyDave
04-08-2007, 13:06
I have seen some low driving in my life but that was sick . . .
wyvern70
04-08-2007, 13:06
Is Alonso resorting to dirty tricks. Didn't Schumacher get a penalty for doing that in Monaco last year
although it does show he's got the same killer instinct as Schumacher
There is killer instinct and there is showing absolutely no respect for your Team :oh-hum:
Fair play though, if you're gonna do something like that, Alonso got the timing SPOT ON.
I love the drama!
Here's hoping they "accidentally" set up Alonso's car wrong tomorrow.
Seriously, how low was that? He evidently felt he could not compete with Hamilton today, so he had to pull off a stunt like that.
mklion123
04-08-2007, 13:08
How to kill your Mclaren career in seconds:lol:
Is he mental:shrug: How can he expect to be in the team running pulling stunts like that, I think he's gonna have trouble in a pitstop tomorrow.:thumbs:
Rabbi of Caerbannog
04-08-2007, 13:11
Has he just blamed the team by saying he was waiting for a gap on the track??
Here's hoping they "accidentally" set up Alonso's car wrong tomorrow.
Seriously, how low was that? He evidently felt he could not compete with Hamilton today, so he had to pull off a stunt like that.
They're not allowed to alter any of the set up until the race is underway. And i doubt his crew will mess anything up, he's their driver.
Hamilton is such a classy individual - had that been me, I think I would have gone mental. I predict a LH win tomorrow with a commanding performance as a result of this.
Has he just blamed the team by saying he was waiting for a gap on the track??
I believe he was referring to the previous pit stop, where they did indeed hold him back for a few seconds for the best track position.
He completely avoided the real question!
They're not allowed to alter any of the set up until the race is underway. And i doubt his crew will mess anything up, he's their driver.
Point taken - my comment wasn't intended to be taken too seriously :D
Panavision
04-08-2007, 13:17
Hamilton is such a classy individual - had that been me, I think I would have gone mental. I predict a LH win tomorrow with a commanding performance as a result of this.
Yeah, did you see, he was very eager to hear from Alonso in the press conference.
I do love controversy on the track. I think Alonso is angry because he was promised number one status.
I bet there's a good chance that the team strategy will be engineered tomorrow to put LH back in the lead, especially if they can do it without risking the 1-2. RD will want to stamp his authority somehow.
lovegroova
04-08-2007, 13:18
A couple of body language things.
1) See how Ron Dennis rips off the headphones of Alonso's trainer
2) Watch how Hamilton turns sharply to hear Alonso's response to the question of why he was delayed leaving the pit box.
and as for the words "You'll have to ask the team that..."
Guilty as charged. If McL are running away with it tomorrow and pretty much guaranteed 1st and 2nd, watch out for a pit stop mishap for Alonso.
I do love controversy on the track. I think Alonso is angry because he was promised number one status.
But if you can't perform as number one it's not exactly the team's fault, is it?
If that was deliberate from Alonso, then he has absolutely no credibility left if that's the only way he can get pole. That will not go down well with Ron Dennis at all. It's especially poor considering he accused Massa of being unsporting at the last Grand Prix.
pivotalgubbins
04-08-2007, 13:20
Providing you can maintain a 1-2, Alonso MUST be held back in the pits tomorrow as punishment. That was disgusting and he was clearly cheating. He isn't as quick or as confident as Hamilton and he knows it. Shame to see a great champion fall over like this!
Is Alonso resorting to dirty tricks. Didn't Schumacher get a penalty for doing that in Monaco last year
2 years ago Kimi went off line on his final lap (whilst ahead in Qualy) and brought back gravel on to the track, slowing down the other competitors challenging him. He remained on Pole and was practically praised for it by the ITV team.
Anyway, the stewards can't do anything, he didn't outwardly affect any other driver outside of his team and you can't see Holier-than-thou-Ron complaining to them, do you? ;)
The way Ron had Alonso's trainer by the scruff of the neck was classic :lol:
2 years ago Kimi went off line on his final lap (whilst ahead in Qualy) and brought back gravel on to the track, slowing down the other competitors challenging him. He remained on Pole and was practically praised for it by the ITV team
Big difference to me between incidents like that and this incident - this is an absolute lack of respect for your Team and Teammate. It wasn't far away from Alonso getting out of his car and slashing LH's tires :nuts:
OliverScott
04-08-2007, 13:26
If I were lewis (and if the team don't let him know that they will do somthing to dissadvantage alonso), I would have a quiet word with alonso to to let him know that I WILL be passing him on the first corner whether he is in the way or not...
BaggyDave
04-08-2007, 13:27
How long did Alonso sign up with McLaren as I guess Ron will be thinking lets cut it short, Alonso just gave Dennis a reason to keep one good driver.
I hope Alonso struggles getting a good seat next year
Great quote from Hamilton on Planet-F1:Asked afterwards by how much he missed doing a flying lap, Hamilton said: 'By about as much as I was held up'...
I can't believe what I have just witnessed. One car deliberately sabotaging their team mates run. Whether that was on orders or an individuals decision remains to be seen. But the lollipop was up.....
One thing for sure, the McLaren motor home will be an interesting place to be right now.
Adds to the spice of the championship don't you think!
Great quote from Hamilton on Planet-F1
Brilliant! :thumbs:
iannewson
04-08-2007, 13:30
Predictions for tomorrows Race
< Alonso Pits during Hungarian Grand Prix >
Pit Team: Sorry mate dint think we have tyres in your size, come back tomorrow.
< YTS Trainee >
I think we have a set of wets in the back that may fit, come back in an hour and it should be done
;)
Whether that was on orders or an individuals decision remains to be seen.
I think Ron's actions after that stunt gives us a fair clue ;)
Half of me wants to call it a beautiful move from Fernando, the other half wants to call him a dirty cheating git. Well handled by Lewis though, he gave no sign of reacting to it when getting out of the car, posing for pics with Fernando, etc.
Ron certainly wont be calling it "beautiful" though: Id hate to be Fernando right now :D
As far as tomorrow goes which of the McLarens gets pole is basically meaningless, fuel loads and pit stops will decide the winner as usual.
Great quote from Hamilton on Planet-F1:Thats just taken from the press conference - didnt ITV bother showing it?
Andrew70
04-08-2007, 13:45
Did you see the way Ron ripped off his own headphones during the closing credits montage? The man was livid.
I honestly thought Lewis had started crawling around on his spoiled outlap in order to baulk Alonso.
Ron won't pull Alonso from the race tomorrow because he won't jeopardise constructor points, similarly they won't engineer a lousy pitstop for Alonso in case he just parks the car.
Ron will definitely punish Alonso in some way though. I'd love for him to be subbed for a couple of races if not the rest of the season.
As far as tomorrow goes which of the McLarens gets pole is basically meaningless, fuel loads and pit stops will decide the winner as usual.Not true, all three of those are related. If you have a lower fuel load, you need to pit earlier and so need to be ahead of your teammate (i.e. pole). It's hard to pass here, so Alonso can benefit significantly if he's on pole with a heavier fuel load.
I honestly thought Lewis had started crawling around on his spoiled outlap in order to baulk Alonso.It would have been great to see Alonso foiled like that - that said, Hamilton would be punished within the rules if he'd have done it.
I think Ron's actions after that stunt gives us a fair clue ;)
Yes, I don't think any "wait" orders will have come from Ron himself :), but I wondered if somebody else within the team might have been screaming down the headphones at him to hold.
I think it highly likely Alonso was acting like a prize **** of his own accord mind. The lollipop was up and the mechanics were 'ready'.
Wait, don't all jump to conclusions. Ron will write us a nice long letter explaining everything.
It'll all make sense then. ;)
mklion123
04-08-2007, 14:08
Not true, all three of those are related. If you have a lower fuel load, you need to pit earlier and so need to be ahead of your teammate (i.e. pole). It's hard to pass here, so Alonso can benefit significantly if he's on pole with a heavier fuel load.
I think your wrong, he's been held up previously on a light fuel load by hamilton, I think alonso has a light load again, and does not want to be held up.
if you've got the light fuel load you do not want to be doing heavy fuel load times behind another car.
I also hope Dennis bans him from at least 2 races for that stunt, or wait until he's about to win the drivers and then ban him!!!!
Alonso:
"The team always decides when I have to get moving," Alonso told Spanish reporters after qualifying.
"I know it looks that way because he lost the opportunity to do his lap, but even if I had left those five seconds earlier he wouldn't have made it anyway.
"I think the calculations were wrong. I'm sorry for him but I leave the pits when I'm told to."
Anyway it was clearly an act of petulance but one that i can see Alonso thought he was reacting to an earlier injustice in the qualifying:
Let's assume Fernando is heavier than Lewis (even if only by 1 lap), he was held for an extremely long amount of time prior to his first 'run', so long in fact that Lewis earned himself 1 extra fuel-credit/lap back - which is crucial when they're that close.
I reckon Alonso thought 'why the hell am i having to drive a heavier car, if you're only going to make me race with the same fuel as the guy lighter in qualifying.
So he balanced things out a bit. In his mind.
Looks like Alonso's desperation to get back in the title hunt has now moved to another level.
He's always been desperate, what about the constant brake testing of Kimi earlier in the session? (How did Kimi get past btw?) Never mind all the others he's done it with over the years.... including in testing! :lol: :brickwall
It's being investigated by the stewards:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61353
Sammy709Sony930
04-08-2007, 15:52
Alonso :nono:
bollecks
04-08-2007, 15:54
I'm supporting Alonso for the championship now. It was Schumacher level evilness!
I can see it now.
Fernando Alonso has been found in breach of rule 116b
116) b) If, in the opinion of the stewards, a driver deliberately stops on the circuit or impedes another driver in any way during the qualifying practice session his times will be cancelled . In this case, a team will not be able to appeal against the steward's decision.
However we do not feel he benefitted from this and so have decided not to punish him
:D
Alonso was found guilty of that offence in 2006, and got put down to 10th.
Although I think he deserves to be put back to the back of the grid for this, 10th wouldn't be too bad, and it wouldn't be *that* bad for McClaren considering Massa is 14th and there's a BMW in front of Raikonnen - it's probably better in the long run than no action being taken and increased resentment at what happens.
belgarion_v
04-08-2007, 16:10
Alonso was giving everyone a clear message ... I know I can't beat Lewis fairly, so I'll do it the Schumacher way.
Vince
Panavision
04-08-2007, 16:25
I hope Alonso doesn't get punished by the stewards. I want Lewis to pulverise him on the track. Fireworks tomorrow, I hope.
Not true, all three of those are related.And when the strategy isnt allowed to play out and the lightest car is not on pole - the pole is almost meaningless.
Thanks for agreeing :lol:
Tell you what, I bet Ron Dennis is gonna have words with both Hamilton and Alonso regarding the first corner tomorrow. You have to believe that if Hamilton gets any kind of jump on Alonso, he'll have a go up the inside if he's close enough, and you can't see Alonso giving way either.
And when the strategy isnt allowed to play out and the lightest car is not on pole - the pole is almost meaningless.
Thanks for agreeing :lol:Your original quote was "As far as tomorrow goes which of the McLarens gets pole is basically meaningless" - now you're saying the pole is just meaningless because the lightest car isn't on pole (which is an assumption anyway unless you know the fuel strategies of both cars for definite).
Feel free to disagree with yourself and be sarcastic in your responses though.
Drysolder
04-08-2007, 17:16
Tell you what, I bet Ron Dennis is gonna have words with both Hamilton and Alonso regarding the first corner tomorrow. You have to believe that if Hamilton gets any kind of jump on Alonso, he'll have a go up the inside if he's close enough, and you can't see Alonso giving way either.
Especially considering Alonso nearly had Hamilton off earlier in the season.
Alonso really does seem to be channeling Schumy's bad habits.
Although, credit where credit's due - Hamilton looked ready to pop Alonso one in the press conference, but held his nerve like a pro.
A lot of talk on Radio 5 at the moment saying that the engineer was counting down to release Alonso due to traffic, and Ron Dennis has also verified that.
Arthur Fowler
04-08-2007, 17:51
A lot of talk on Radio 5 at the moment saying that the engineer was counting down to release Alonso due to traffic, and Ron Dennis has also verified that.
Sounds like nonsense to me and a way to avoid a penalty. In the previous pit stop, the lollypop man did the holding back waiting for a gap and then gave a countdown to go.
So now it transpires, according to Ron, that it was Lewis that first ignored the teams orders in not slowing down for Alonso to pass (in order to get the extra fuel credit) and instead raced off.... This would explain why FA was visibly angry in the pit stop prior to his 'first run'.
As for FA's delay at the end, this was down to the call of the Engineer who told him to wait - i doubt there are many that don't think that was a bit of 'engineered' payback though by Alonso's camp.
So all in all, not too far away from my earlier suggestion i think.
Dennis says Hamilton to blame for incident
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61368
Sounds like nonsense to me and a way to avoid a penalty. In the previous pit stop, the lollypop man did the holding back waiting for a gap and then gave a countdown to go.
Definitely sounds like that - Ron Dennis is clearly concerned about Alonso getting dumped down the grid so is back tracking. Surely his reaction after qualifying proved exactly who was at fault really.
Arthur Fowler
04-08-2007, 18:04
Definitely sounds like that - Ron Dennis is clearly concerned about Alonso getting dumped down the grid so is back tracking. Surely his reaction after qualifying proved exactly who was at fault really.
Indeed, and that new statement by Dennis is :suspect:. Ok, if Hamilton made a mistake earlier and messed things up, then the team haul him over the coals for that. The second stop incident was clearly Alonso wanting (and getting) revenge.
Sounds like Dennis is going out of his way to placate poor Fernando :oh-hum:
Has the suggestion that the stewards are investiging been confirmed by anyone other than AutoSport? I haven't seen it confirmed by the BBC or ITV (online).
I'm hoping it will be investigated and we will not just be left with this statement for Ron as the "final" version of events.
EDIT: Bah - seen it on ITV's page now. Ignore me! :doh:
Well, sounds to me like, Lewis didn't follow team orders (they alternate races who has the opportunity to be 1 lap lighter at the end of qualy seemingly) quite blatantly by the sounds of it...
And
Ron is trying to cover for the fact that Fernando's camp got their own revenge at the end.
mklion123
04-08-2007, 18:08
I still dont get it?
at the first stop FA got his fuel burn waiting in the pits, were the lollypop guy counted down from 5.
I don't get all this letting him through ********, as FA was already in front hence holding up LH in the last stop.
I just hope LH takes him on the first corner and just holds him up all race!!!!!
A lot of talk on Radio 5 at the moment saying that the engineer was counting down to release Alonso due to traffic, and Ron Dennis has also verified that.
I've seen this suggestion on another forum, but I don't buy this at all. The McLaren lollipop man had released the lollipop, suggesting that at best the team were disorganised. There would also have been nothing to stop Alonso going slow down the pitlane to find the same gap so that his team mate can get the place in the garage.
I'm sure McLaren wouldn't intentionally bring the two drivers in together, knowing that the second wouldn't get out on time, and I don't think that Hamilton had any problem that forced him in. And the intention obviously was to send Hamilton out again, because they did send him out again.
This is nothing more than a whitewash, as Dennis knows that they are better off as a team for the constructors championship without any penalty being applied. Whatever the team may say to the stewards, you can bet that Alonso is not Mr Popular in the team right now!
What this does highlight is that it is about time that teams had split pit crews and pit lane boxes for each driver in F1. They manage it in lesser forms of motorsport, such as ChampCar and IRL, so why can't they do the same in F1. Too many times you see drivers waiting for a space, which destroys their race, and now it's happened in qualifying, too. Time for a change, I think.
What this does highlight is that it is about time that teams had split pit crews and pit lane boxes for each driver in F1. They manage it in lesser forms of motorsport, such as ChampCar and IRL, so why can't they do the same in F1. Too many times you see drivers waiting for a space, which destroys their race, and now it's happened in qualifying, too. Time for a change, I think.
I wonder if many of the tracks could accommodate longer pitlanes though?
mklion123
04-08-2007, 18:14
I've seen this suggestion on another forum, but I don't buy this at all. The McLaren lollipop man had released the lollipop, suggesting that at best the team were disorganised. There would also have been nothing to stop Alonso going slow down the pitlane to find the same gap so that his team mate can get the place in the garage.
I'm sure McLaren wouldn't intentionally bring the two drivers in together, knowing that the second wouldn't get out on time, and I don't think that Hamilton had any problem that forced him in. And the intention obviously was to send Hamilton out again, because they did send him out again.
This is nothing more than a whitewash, as Dennis knows that they are better off as a team for the constructors championship without any penalty being applied. Whatever the team may say to the stewards, you can bet that Alonso is not Mr Popular in the team right now!
What this does highlight is that it is about time that teams had split pit crews and pit lane boxes for each driver in F1. They manage it in lesser forms of motorsport, such as ChampCar and IRL, so why can't they do the same in F1. Too many times you see drivers waiting for a space, which destroys their race, and now it's happened in qualifying, too. Time for a change, I think.
theres not enough room, you see alonso almost take out a pit crew member from another team a few races ago.
I don't get all this letting him through ********, as FA was already in front hence holding up LH in the last stop.
It's simple.
Lewis should not have got out in front of Fernando in the first place and then when he did, he was told to slow down and let FA pass. He didn't. He raced off instead. Add to that FA was held for an extravagant amount of time in one of his pitstops, that suddenly Lewis was on the back of Fernando!
I believe that what Ron says about that to be the truth, i don't think he'd publicly criticise Hamilton just to appease Alonso. Absolutely not.
The rest of the stuff about FA being held by his engineer 'waiting for clear traffic' is total crap though. Ron knows that FA screwed Lewis (back!) and is in damage limitation mode. That amd he wants to avoid a penalty so he can pick up his 18 Constructers points.
I'm sure McLaren wouldn't intentionally bring the two drivers in together, knowing that the second wouldn't get out on time, and I don't think that Hamilton had any problem that forced him in. And the intention obviously was to send Hamilton out again, because they did send him out again.
:thinking:
All drivers come in at that stage of qualifying at every race so they get 'fresh boots' for the final stint. They just never intended Hamilton to get so far ahead of Alonso that he'd be so close behind.
This is nothing more than a whitewash, as Dennis knows that they are better off as a team for the constructors championship without any penalty being applied.
Agreed.
Whatever the team may say to the stewards, you can bet that Alonso is not Mr Popular in the team right now!
He won't be popular but i don't think Lewis will be either. And the two divisions within the team are just growing further apart and more resentful of each other. Imo. ;)
I wonder if many of the tracks could accommodate longer pitlanes though?
theres not enough room, you see alonso almost take out a pit crew member from another team a few races ago.
With all the money in F1, surely they should be able to find a solution at almost all circuits? Given that they have held ChampCar races at current F1 circuits, and even circuits such as Brands Hatch, they must be able to do something similar with F1. This is supposed to be a rich, high technology sport and it is suffering because they can't spend a few quid on changing the pit lanes!
It's simple.
Lewis should not have got out in front of Fernando in the first place and then when he did, he was told to slow down and let FA pass. He didn't. He raced off instead. Add to that FA was held for an extravagant amount of time in one of his pitstops, that suddenly Lewis was on the back of Fernando!
I believe that what Ron says about that to be the truth, i don't think he'd publicly criticise Hamilton just to appease Alonso. Absolutely not.
The rest of the stuff about FA being held by his engineer 'waiting for clear traffic' is total crap though. Ron knows that FA screwed Lewis (back!) and is in damage limitation mode. That amd he wants to avoid a penalty so he can pick up his 18 Constructers points.
The way I read it, LH was released first as his engine had got to the correct temperature to allow him to start to queue at the end of the pitlane. However, LH was supposed to let FA past on the first lap to get back in sequence. LH ignored this, and sped off, so FA and his engineer got their revenge by holding LH up at the later pit stop (Ron Dennis, doesn't specifically confirm this, but he doesn't deny it either).
It sounds a decent enough explanation to me, with both drivers (and FA's engineer at fault). It does further evidence how competitive the two drivers and their teams are within Mclaren though, and it may only get worse as we reach the end of the season.
Yeah totally agree, not sure why i thought Lewis shouldn't have got out first but regardless, he definetly shouldn't have stayed there.
:thumbs:
I say the stewards should still punish Alonso, y'know just to spice up the atmosphere even more. :D
:thinking:
All drivers come in at that stage of qualifying at every race so they get 'fresh boots' for the final stint. They just never intended Hamilton to get so far ahead of Alonso that he'd be so close behind.
He won't be popular but i don't think Lewis will be either. And the two divisions within the team are just growing further apart and more resentful of each other. Imo. ;)
Sorry - only saw the last 5 minutes of qualifying as I was at work. The only way your first statement works would be if Hamilton was intended to have come in before Alonso and have gone for his last stint first. If Alonso came in and was subsequently released at the correct time as planned then Hamilton must have been due in first and he ignored that time. Even so, it still doesn't explain why the lollipop man released Alonso, who didn't react, nor why the team didn't ask Alonso to leave earlier but slower to help Lewis. Unless of course the team were trying to teach Lewis a lesson.
I didn't see Lewis do anything wrong (but I refer you to my first sentence, so probably missed something!). Why will he not be popular in the team as a result of this incident?
I didn't see Lewis do anything wrong (but I refer you to my first sentence, so probably missed something!). Why will he not be popular in the team as a result of this incident?
Within the McLaren team there is an arrangement that at alternating races, each driver is given the opportunity to get ahead of his team mate in the fuel burn session. The advantage to this (if he gets far enough ahead) is that he is one lap lighter when it comes to his 'final proper attempt' and he can possibly earn himself an extra fuel credit (having completed an extra lap). RD clearly says
"In this instance, it was Fernando's time to get the advantage of the longer fuel burn. The arrangement was, OK, we're down at the end of the pitlane, we reverse positions in the first lap."
Lewis refused to acknowledge this. That's why he might not be too popular with RD tonight.
As a result of that action Alonso and/or his engineer stalled Lewis at the end - the lollipop man, wasn't in on it, he saw the car was ready to go and gave the signal but Alonso was not for going!.
Thats why he won't be popular either.
edit/ arrowst will probably explain it better.
So expect to see people posting that Lewis was out of order for screwing his teammate... ;)
crazyfool_col
04-08-2007, 19:10
Mr Moby is spot on.
Hamilton went against the agreement of final quali and subsequently Alonso team/ engineer gets pay back.
Ron Dennis having to put some spin on it to make sure no penalty is applied, however, if this is investigated and if any of the radio communication suggests otherwise I reckon FA could still be penalised.
Looking forward to the 1st corner!!
mklion123
04-08-2007, 19:13
Within the McLaren team there is an arrangement that at alternating races, each driver is given the opportunity to get ahead of his team mate in the fuel burn session. The advantage to this (if he gets far enough ahead) is that he is one lap lighter when it comes to his 'final proper attempt' and he can possibly earn himself an extra fuel credit (having completed an extra lap). RD clearly says
"In this instance, it was Fernando's time to get the advantage of the longer fuel burn. The arrangement was, OK, we're down at the end of the pitlane, we reverse positions in the first lap."
Lewis refused to acknowledge this. That's why he might not be too popular with RD tonight.
As a result of that action Alonso and/or his engineer stalled Lewis at the end - the lollipop man, wasn't in on it, he saw the car was ready to go and gave the signal but Alonso was not for going!.
Thats why he won't be popular either.
edit/ arrowst will probably explain it better.
So expect to see people posting that Lewis was out of order for screwing his teammate... ;)
it's still all bull, as RD didn't even know about it, how can that happen, how can FA's crew think they're more important than RD?
Cheers. Think I get it now, although it's been a long day!
So, basically Hamilton ignored team orders (or an 'arrangement' - thought those weren't supposed to exist, or is that just in a race!) and Alonso or his engineer chose to get him back for it. Alonso really is rattled, isn't he! You'd have thought that a two times World Champion would just put him in his place on the track.
Although, it just highlights the fact that another thing that they need to look at is this fuel burning session. It just seems such a waste and I don't see what they are trying to achieve with it. Would much prefer to see the drivers get two or three hot laps in the last session, with refuelling in between each run.
it's still all bull, as RD didn't even know about it, how can that happen, how can FA's crew think they're more important than RD?
Don't you know... Ron knows nothing. ;)
Ron Dennis has all the integrity of a dodgy market trader. He's chosen to gloss over things for the sake of a few points, and to hell with any sense of fair play. I hope Alonso gets punished, and the team gets punished for the current 'Stepneygate' affair. Maybe a tough example needs to be made to show the big teams can be punished hard when they do wrong.
Qualifying ended 7 hours ago, yet the stewards apparently still havent reached a decision. Id have thought this would be really simple: listen to Fernandos radio, if nothing untoward was said and he moved when told to then theres no case to answer.
Yeah totally agree, not sure why i thought Lewis shouldn't have got out first but regardless, he definetly shouldn't have stayed there.Why not - were we watching the same session?
From the instant the lights went green until the first round of pitstops anytime the cameras caught Alonso Kimi could be seem all over his gearbox. I dont see how Lewis had any chance of letting Alonso past without letting Kimi through too. Theres no reason for overly agressive moves to defend a position in qualifying, I can see why he'd choose to stay first.
Of course that relies on him knowing where Kimi was. Given the pathetic wing mirrors on an F1 car would he have known? Doubtful.
Your original quote was "As far as tomorrow goes which of the McLarens gets pole is basically meaningless" - now you're saying the pole is just meaningless because the lightest car isn't on pole (which is an assumption anyway unless you know the fuel strategies of both cars for definite).Zzzzzzzzzz.
Its Hungary, the time penalty of carrying 1-2 laps extra fuel is minimal, everything else being even (mistakes/reliability) the winner will be the one who takes their final pitstop last. It will not be a 1 stop race, the team therefore choose the winner based on the amount of fuel they give them at the first stop.
Is that clear for you now - which of the McLarens was lighter today and who took pole really doesnt mean alot, if as expected they are running less than a second apart at the first set of pitstops tomorrow they will just be passengers in a procession controlled by the teams.
And that is why Hungary is a pointless race.
Apparently it's now official that Alonso will not suffer any penalty.
Fireworks on turn one await us :D
And that is why Hungary is a pointless race.
Been some fantastic victories at the Hungaroring from Drivers who've started well down the field
Roughly 1 every 10 years isnt it?
Which means we're likely to have a few real boring ones coming up :(
Roughly 1 every 10 years isnt it?
Which means we're likely to have a few real boring ones coming up :(
I honestly think the old reputation of Hungary is a thing of the past for me
Alonso dropped 5 places on the grid as a result of 'an incident involving lewis hamilton'
this one is going to be interesting
After deliberating for hours the Stewards have just announced that Alonso will start 6th.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61370
Alonso dropped 5 places on the grid as a result of 'an incident involving lewis hamilton'
this one is going to be interesting
Why the hell did it take them over 8 hours to make that decision especially when they confirmed that he'd be starting pole? Madness.
Apparently it's now official that Alonso will not suffer any penalty.
:brickwall I'm having a bad day - that'll teach me to believe something I read on another forum.
It all makes Ron look rather silly after the statement he made earlier.
Can anyone explain why it is a five place demotion? I thought the penalty would be heavier.
I don't think they ever confirmed him as staying on pole, mind you i base that on the fact that bira@autosport never once posted that story even when some others did. I'm sure she'd have had it up straight away if the source was the stewards themselves and not 'some insider'. As to how long it takes, maybe it took that long to see through Rons spin.
Quick Nick had a shocker last race, maybe he'll get all adventurous and punt Hamilton off at the first corner only for Fernando to go on and win the race anyway.
mklion123
04-08-2007, 22:14
Why the hell did it take them over 8 hours to make that decision especially when they confirmed that he'd be starting pole? Madness.
I think they wanted to wait until he'd gone to bed before announcing it, give him a suprise to wake up to :lol::D:clap:
:brickwall I'm having a bad day - that'll teach me to believe something I read on another forum.
It all makes Ron look rather silly after the statement he made earlier.ITV (still) have a report up saying there's no penalty for Alonso, wonder why there's a discrepancy between them.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40283
mklion123
04-08-2007, 22:16
:brickwall I'm having a bad day - that'll teach me to believe something I read on another forum.
It all makes Ron look rather silly after the statement he made earlier.
Can anyone explain why it is a five place demotion? I thought the penalty would be heavier.
sporting life still have the story that hes been cleared and will start on pole?
ITV (still) have a report up saying there's no penalty for Alonso, wonder why there's a discrepancy between them.
Argh, it's either dodgy reporting for AutoSport or a right mess from the stewards.
Because ITV are slouches.... get this....
REUTERS are saying that McLaren will not be allowed to score Constructors Points too.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/motorSportsNews/idUKL0410473420070804
It's better to be truthful from the start, Ron. ;)
Also confirmed on the BBC now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6929333.stm
Argh, it's either dodgy reporting for AutoSport or a right mess from the stewards.
The stewards never formally announced that he was on Pole, even Pitpass ran the story (they still do) that he would remain on Pole but that there was no announcement as yet.... Bira waited until the facts emerged.
I wonder if McLaren found themselves with the problem of the Stewards believing either Alonso waited to ruin the lap of another championship rival, or they waited to come out in front of Kimi. :thinking:
/edit Pitpass have updated the news now and said that their earlier story was based on "information provided in good faith".
mklion123
04-08-2007, 22:27
The stewards of the Hungarian Grand Prix have also penalised the McLaren team, saying the outfit will not be awarded any constructors points in tomorrow's race.
Posted above. ;) :thumbs:
McLaren can appeal though, i'm just not sure if that has to held with the FIA at a later date.
The stewards never formally announced that he was on Pole, even Pitpass ran the story (they still do) that he would remain on Pole but that there was no announcement as yet.... Bira waited until the facts emerged.
Ok - it was the ITV report that the stewards had decided that there would be no penalty that had me confused. I assumed that was the final verdict.
The full report from the stewards should make interesting reading.
That'll take another 15 hours probably!
Or they'll put it in a letter. Letters are all the rage these days.
Letters are all the rage these days.
:lol:
mklion123
04-08-2007, 22:37
so they have appealed against the constuctors points.
but they cant appeal the demotion down the grid
BaggyDave
04-08-2007, 22:39
So it looks like Ron looked at the Evidence and moulded it to suit then told his drivers to keep to that story ( which they prob will )
The way McLaren are going on they will lose this season by making dumb moves, Alonso certainly looked desperate today . . . I bet he is really looking forward getting back to the UK :)
Simply one of these two drivers will have to go at the end of the year, this tactic has hurt them in the past and has reared it's ugly head once again
Chances are we will never ever find out the real facts behind this
mklion123
04-08-2007, 22:44
So it looks like Ron looked at the Evidence and moulded it to suit then told his drivers to keep to that story ( which they prob will )
The way McLaren are going on they will lose this season by making dumb moves, Alonso certainly looked desperate today . . . I bet he is really looking forward getting back to the UK :)
Simply one of these two drivers will have to go at the end of the year, this tactic has hurt them in the past and has reared it's ugly head once again
Chances are we will never ever find out the real facts behind this
but we will because the stewards listened to the team tapes, if someone was telling alonso to wait then the stewards would have said so, instead they've penalised alonso, so who was in the wrong:shrug:
They cannot appeal Alonso's penalty afaik, however they will 'race under appeal' regarding the Constructors points penalty. That would happen some time between Monday and the next race.... it'd be nice if we could just get the whole Espionage affair out of the way on the same day!
Anyhoo the Stewards announcement:
"The actions of the team in the final minutes of qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and the interests of motorsport generally.
The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula One constructors championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix will be withdrawn."
So it looks like Ron looked at the Evidence and moulded it to suit then told his drivers to keep to that story ( which they prob will )
But of course he didn't do that with Neale and Lowe! ;)
BaggyDave
04-08-2007, 22:56
but we will because the stewards listened to the team tapes, if someone was telling alonso to wait then the stewards would have said so, instead they've penalised alonso, so who was in the wrong:shrug:
I was meaning more about the fact Ron Blamed Lewis there is nothing really to prove / dis prove this . . . I think Alonso is as guilty as sin to be honest but I am also looking forward to the extensive letter of explanation from the stewards.
Here you go, haven't read it yet, but i'm sure it's interesting.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61373
There's the stewards' response here now:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61373
EDIT: Too slow!
I'm not sure I understand the decision on first reading.
The punishment to Alonso is understandable, however, the planned delay of 20 seconds was not the cause of the problem, so why punish McLaren for that? It does seem like the additional delay was unnecessary, but this doesn't seem to be the primary cause of the incident.
mklion123
04-08-2007, 23:25
I'm not sure I understand the decision on first reading.
The punishment to Alonso is understandable, however, the planned delay of 20 seconds was not the cause of the problem, so why punish McLaren for that? It does seem like the additional delay was unnecessary, but this doesn't seem to be the primary cause of the incident.
they did not believe Alonso so dropped the 5 places.
they also didn't believe Mclarens explanation, hence the no constructors points for todays race.
they both claimed delays due to wanting to avoid traffic, only kimi was on the track at the time!!!!
There's a couple of things that stick out to me about that:
The team told him over radio they'd hold him for 20 seconds - surely extremely irresponsible given that Hamilton presumably raced nearly flat out on his out lap after being delayed, but still missed it by 4 seconds (after being delayed by a further 10 seconds). It seems a bit odd then for the team to cut it so close, especially when nobody else was out there to to damage Alonso's lap.
Alonso saying he was checking that he had the right tyres after the 20 seconds - what was he going to do if they were wrong, get them to magically change them to different ones?! - seems a ridiculous thing to say.
they also didn't believe Mclarens explanation, hence the no constructors points for todays race.
From the report:
"The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted."
But this wasn't the 20 seconds that stopped Hamilton completing his last flying lap, it was Alonso who then stayed in the box for an addition 10 seconds after that.
Or am I missing something?
Ok so let's try and go through it all...
#1 - Luis Hamilton repeatedly ignored team orders. Tut tut, not clever, and he should be disciplined by Mclaren. You simply cannot have drivers ignoring their team's orders. It's a non-starter. I doubt Hamilton will do so again after all this.
#2 - According to the stewards, once the lollypop was up, the car is FREE to leave the pits. We know Fernando Alonso did not until 20 seconds after the tyre change, because, according to him, he was asking the mechanics if the right tyres had been fitted to his car, which sounds beyond ridiculous as an explaination. You want to have a chat about if the team knows what they're doing regarding tyres, when you have your team-mate waiting behind you, and qualifying is coming to an end? It's laughable stuff, and the stewards found as much.
#3 - At the time of Alonso's pit-stop, only he, Hamilton and Raikkonen were on the track. At the time of the pit-stop, only Raikkonen remained on the circuit. So any issue regarding traffic and track position is invalid. There was none.
#4 - Ron Dennis continues to talk rubbish.
I can only theorise that they thought that McLaren's justification of the 20 seconds wasn't good enough, so much so that the person responsible for that may have colluded with Alonso for a combined delay that was long enough.
Even if Alonso had sped away immediately, holding him for 20 seconds made it extremely tight for Hamilton, without there seemingly being any good reason to do so.
Drysolder
04-08-2007, 23:49
#1 - Luis Hamilton repeatedly ignored team orders. Tut tut, not clever, and he should be disciplined by Mclaren. You simply cannot have drivers ignoring their team's orders. It's a non-starter. I doubt Hamilton will do so again after all this.
I don't think he wilfully 'ignored' the request to pit, the steward's report puts the phrasing a little better:
The team required Hamilton by radio communication to allow Alonso to pass in order that he might endeavour to complete his extra lap. Because of the proximity of the Ferrari driven by Kimi Raikkonen, however, Hamilton declined to allow Alonso to pass despite repeated requests from the team to do so.
So it sounds like Hamilton wanted to keep position because of the effect Kimi's car could have on his time - sounds fairly logical, especially in a team where the drivers and their ego's are rubbing up against each other.
Ron Dennis is a chump though for trying to spin things out the way he did, and that's the only reason McLaren have been denied constructors points.
Ah its times like this you see the difference between the credible news sites and the cut'n'paste monkeys.
As always seems to be the case when the stewards get involved the penalty chosen appears to have no relation to others applied in the past. Why a 5 place penalty for Alonso, it seems like such an arbitary number. Either cancelling his best lap, or all times in Q3, or all qualifying times would match up to penalties we see on a somewhat regular basis, 5 places is just weird and seems like the sort of silly inconsistency the "permanent steward" was intended to get rid of.
It was inevitable something like this was going to happen. We've seen the two sides of the McLaren garage having an increasingly strained relationship in the last few races: maybe now theyll have their heads banged together and be forced to start operating as a team.
I honestly think the old reputation of Hungary is a thing of the past for meWhy? Was there a single enjoyable race between Damon Hills adventure in an Arrows in 199x and the rain affected race last year? Not that I can recall.
It remains a processional farce in the vast majority of years. Maybe this year will be helped by Massa & Alonso starting out of position, though personally my money would be on Alonso making some crazy overtaking attempt and taking at least 1 car out of the race on the first corner.
Why a 5 place penalty for Alonso, it seems like such an arbitary number. Either cancelling his best lap, or all times in Q3, or all qualifying times would match up to penalties we see on a somewhat regular basis, 5 places is just weird and seems like the sort of silly inconsistency the "permanent steward" was intended to get rid of.
I don't get it either. I think a 1 second penalty would have put him around 5th but then he didn't receive a '1 second penalty', it was just '5 places'.... :thinking: Didn't FA get a 2 second penalty for brake testing Doornbos here last year? And Schumacher a 1 second penalty for passing after a Red Flag?
In other qualifying news, turns out Massa's problem wasn't a car fault after all... They forgot to put the fuel in! :brickwall :cuckoo::nono::shrug::?::doh::lol: By the time they reversed him back and he got going again, his tyres (and temperatures) were ruined.
fattyboombatty
05-08-2007, 00:12
alonso has really screwed the team now. i'm actually a little shocked he did this. i could completely believe the cheating hun would of pulled this kind of thing and expected to walk away smiling, but is seems so stupid that he thought he'd get away with it. i really hope this is just frustration and not a new attitude towards racing as the sport doesn't need it.
But that doesnt make sense either: if Massas problem was cold tyres they had plenty of time from what I recall to either change them again or have him do 2 warmup laps.
His car was handling like a Honda (harsh, but fair!) in Q2, his first run where he clearly had fuel saw him manage 11th fastest. Seems like theres more to it than Ferrari are admitting to, and whatever the reason its most un-Ferrari like.
mklion123
05-08-2007, 00:24
I believe they've only dropped him 5 places because he stopped his team-mate, had he of obstructed anyone else it would have been the full 10 places?
seems as though if Dennis had told the truth that its was all Alonso he would have got some points out of the weekend, and also this will almost certainly put team orders in place at Mclaren if Hamilton wins, well done Alonso:brickwall
Am I missing something here? Fair enough Alonso's petulance is certainly a cause for disdain but why is Hamilton's defiance and arrogance at ignoring teams orders going unchecked? If he'd ******* allowed Alonso to pass as instructed by his team then no doubt this whole episode wouldn't have happened.
It doesn't matter one bit to the stewards whether or not a driver obeys (legitimate) team orders or not, that's not something they can punish and would have to be dealt with by the team (although Hamilton did give a reason for not obeying them, not sure how valid it is).
It doesn't matter one bit to the stewards whether or not a driver obeys (legitimate) team orders or not, that's not something they can punish and would have to be dealt with by the team (although Hamilton did give a reason for not obeying them, not sure how valid it is).
I understand that Hamlton disobediance isn't punishable by the stewards it just seems that everyone's quick to mouth off about Alonso when it appears this whole mess due to the two numpties with ego problems (three if we're counting Ron Dennis).
I understand that Hamlton disobediance isn't punishable by the stewards it just seems that everyone's quick to mouth off about Alonso when it appears this whole mess due to the two numpties with ego problems (three if we're counting Ron Dennis).Well it seems like the only way Alonsos "extra lap" plan could possibly have worked out is if Lewis was ahead of Kimi (and everyone else) and held them up for the rest of the session.
Given that his excuse makes perfect sense. If theres another scenario which would allow Fernando to do a lap more than everyone else I cant work it out ...
Andrew70
05-08-2007, 01:53
If McLaren can't score points on Sunday afternoon, they don't need to be so conservative with their track etiquette.
Taking a chance with a 50:50 overtaking manoeuvre on a championship rival suddenly isn't so costly.
If McLaren can't score points on Sunday afternoon, they don't need to be so conservative with their track etiquette.
Taking a chance with a 50:50 overtaking manoeuvre on a championship rival suddenly isn't so costly.
The drivers can, it's only the team that can't - so i dont think they'll be taking too many risks.... Quick Nick might think he can be extra aggressive into the first corner, given Hamilton has far much more at stake but then he starts on the 'dirty side' and is probably more likely to be passed by Kimi than passing himself.
Sammy709Sony930
05-08-2007, 07:59
I've lost a lot of respect for Ron Dennis after yesterday.
I've never had any respect for FA anyway, he's a wee sneak.
Won't be watching the GP today anyway as it'll be 100% boring. Will record it on TV-Drive and x32 most of it.
Roughneck
05-08-2007, 08:37
Alonso should not have stayed in his pit box for as long as he did.. just look at the reaction from the tyre guys and other pit crew members around Alonso's car.. they tell the whole story. They have no clue what is going on as this was not planned and nothing was "been looked into etc".
Ron threw Lewis under the bus to stop Alonso from being dumped to the back of the grid.. plain and simple.
Drysolder
05-08-2007, 08:47
Am I missing something here? Fair enough Alonso's petulance is certainly a cause for disdain but why is Hamilton's defiance and arrogance at ignoring teams orders going unchecked? If he'd ******* allowed Alonso to pass as instructed by his team then no doubt this whole episode wouldn't have happened.
All the stewards are interested in is whether the actions could have resulted in some danger on the track or to people on the track.
Didn't Alonso have form when it comes to pit-stop shenanigans though, was it he who was involved in that near pile-up last race, or a couple of races ago?
Ron threw Lewis under the bus to stop Alonso from being dumped to the back of the grid.. plain and simple.
:thinking:
Erm, no he didn't.
Asked about the team orders he ignored earlier on, Hamilton said: "I was at the end of the pitlane; there was me, Fernando and Kimi. Just with the situation, I didn't want to disrupt the opportunity that I had.
"I didn't want to mess up my opportunity by changing places or whatever there was to do, and be open to being overtaken by Kimi and losing my place.
"So then it would have not allowed me to get an extra lap. So that's why we had the disagreement, because I didn't agree with it and I didn't do what they wanted me to do."
Lewis did not fulfill his end of the agreement, an arrangement that he benefited from at Silverstone - Ron told us that but it wasn't in any way a defense to Alonso with the stewards about why he was stationery in the pit for 30 seconds and i fail to see how it consitutes "throwing him under a bus".
In other news Fisichella has been dropped 5 places for impeding Yamamoto in qualifying.
The Bear
05-08-2007, 08:56
Did you see the way Ron ripped off his own headphones during the closing credits montage? The man was livid.
I noticed that. He threw them at the timing screens!!
#1 - Luis Hamilton repeatedly ignored team orders. Tut tut, not clever, and he should be disciplined by Mclaren. You simply cannot have drivers ignoring their team's orders. It's a non-starter. I doubt Hamilton will do so again after all this.
Hamilton explained that he couldn't let Alonso past because Raikkonen was right behind Alonso. I think that's an acceptable explanation as it could have hampered his qualifying had Kimi passed him as well.
Alonso reacted unprofessionally to this and saw the red mist. If he'd have thought about it, he could have requested the fuel burn advantage at the next 2 grand prix which would even them back up again. Obviously he wasn't seeing sense at that time though.
#2 - According to the stewards, once the lollypop was up, the car is FREE to leave the pits. We know Fernando Alonso did not until 20 seconds after the tyre change
That's incorrect it was 30 seconds. 20 seconds was the time that McLaren held him in his box before lifting the lollipop. Mark Blundell (and myself) counted 10 seconds after the tyres went up before Alonso left the pit box. The stewards confirm that in their explanation as well. So it was a total of 30 seconds before Alonso left his box, 10 of those being Alonso's naughty deed with the lollipop lifted.
I fully agree that Alonso should be punished as it was a deliberate ploy to make Hamilton miss his final lap. The explantion he gave was laughable.
I can understand that holding Alonso unnecessarily for 20 seconds did contribute to Hamilton's missed lap, and it gave Alonso the opportunity to do what he did, but I don't agree with the punishment for the team at all. If Alonso had left his box when he was told, then both drivers would have got round in time. Hardly 100% the team's fault ultimately.
The stewards (and possibly the FIA) are just sending a message to Ron Dennis and McLaren to not let it happen again and to control his drivers better. McLaren are appealling at the International Court Of Appeal but I doubt they'll win.
I can understand that holding Alonso for 20 seconds did contribute to Hamilton's missed lap, and it gave Alonso the opportunity to do what he did, but I don't agree with the punishment for the team at all. If Alonso had left his box when he was told, then both drivers would have got round in time.
Maybe someone could check this but if Alonso and Lewis had left the pits after the orchestrated '20 second wait', i think one of them might just have pulled out in front of Kimi as he started a flying lap. ;)
Also Lewis comments that he didn't want to be overtaken by Kimi because he wouln't have been able to get his 'extra lap' in but the agreement wasn't for him to get that lap anyway, it was for Alonso. He could have dropped behind both of them and it would not have compromised the agreed strategy at all.
The Bear
05-08-2007, 09:06
I'm not sure where Kimi was on the track, so who knows?
I think Lewis just didn't want to be stuck behind Kimi if he got past. If Kimi wasn't there I think he would have moved over without a problem.
Maybe he needs to run at a certain speed to do his fuel burn correctly?
Alonso reacted unprofessionally to this and saw the red mist. If he'd have thought about it, he could have requested the fuel burn advantage at the next 2 grand prix which would even them back up again. Obviously he wasn't seeing sense at that time though.
I'm no engineer or anything so i'll take Adam Coopers word that the 'fuel burn advantage' only works at certain tracks, that last of which was Silverstone.... maybe there aren't 2 more such tracks left this season.
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/39222/
Not sure if it's been posted yet, but check out the alleged exchange between Hamilton and the team after missing out on the lap:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2199765.ece
I suspect that might have been the point Dennis threw his headphones across the desk!
The Bear
05-08-2007, 09:15
I'm no engineer or anything so i'll take Adam Coopers word that the 'fuel burn advantage' only works at certain tracks, that last of which was Silverstone.... maybe there aren't 2 more such tracks left this season.
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/39222/
You may be right, cheers for the link.
"Go ******* swivel" :lol: No wonder Ron wasn't happy.
Though I'm not sure when Ron threw his headphones down compared to where the cars were. Hamilton was coming back into the pits when he 'allegedly' said that.
I guess the 5 place penalty for Alonso is about right, but what really irks me is (if I understand this correctly) that Mclaren can't score constructor points this weekend. This does appear to be a blatant attempt (not unheard of in F1) to make the constructors championship more competitive. I'm sure they've done similar things in the past when Schumacher got sent to the back of the grid when he was winning the championship by a decent margin.
On a separate note, I know a few people have had digs at Ron Dennis, but I have to say, irrespective of all the recent events, he appears to have a lot of integrity to me (more than most in F1). Problem is, he finds himself between a rock and a hard place trying to manage the egos of FA and LH.
mklion123
05-08-2007, 09:59
Maybe someone could check this but if Alonso and Lewis had left the pits after the orchestrated '20 second wait', i think one of them might just have pulled out in front of Kimi as he started a flying lap. ;)
Also Lewis comments that he didn't want to be overtaken by Kimi because he wouln't have been able to get his 'extra lap' in but the agreement wasn't for him to get that lap anyway, it was for Alonso. He could have dropped behind both of them and it would not have compromised the agreed strategy at all.
your not trying to tell us Alonso would have hampered himself in the same situation?
let's face it he would have done exactly the same as Hamilton, his little hissy fits prove that.
ok so they have that agreement but I'm sure the agreement doesn't involve ruining your own qualifying, yes let him through but not at your own expense.
did Hamilton not say he wanted to let him through a little later in the lap but Alonso had backed off, too busy throwing his toy's out the pram if you ask me......
Guys,
Can someone explain the fuel burn session? Do they go out on too much fuel (eg, enough if they're don the grid) then burn some in the final qualifying session so that hey are light for the front of the grid?
Also, what the hell is a fuel credit and why can only one driver per team get it? Is there an eay guide to the new qualifying rules, I thought I understood them :shrug:
The Bear
05-08-2007, 10:26
They go out on the fuel they want to start the race with. Each lap within a certain percentage of a quick lap they complete they get a lap's fuel back via a credit. Both drivers get it.
Can someone explain the fuel burn session? Do they go out on too much fuel (eg, enough if they're don the grid) then burn some in the final qualifying session so that hey are light for the front of the grid?
Also, what the hell is a fuel credit and why can only one driver per team get it? You probably do understand them.
For every lap each driver does within a certain percentage of the pole time they receive a fixed amount of fuel back - supposedly enough for one lap although this is going to vary slightly.
On some tracks, with this apparently being one of them, its a fairly tight decision as to whether they have time to fit in X or X+1 pure "fuel burn" laps before they make their stop for the first of the standard 2 real qualifying attempts - purely down to the laptime and pit lane length (and thus pitstop time).
The "one driver per team" confusion appears to be McLaren deciding there was enough time for one driver to do X+1 fuel burn laps, with the other going for X.
Add Lewis missing out on his final qualifying lap, and so doing 1 less lap and getting fuel credit for 1 less lap and you get a confusing mess :)
snoopstah
05-08-2007, 11:04
Hamilton explained that he couldn't let Alonso past because Raikkonen was right behind Alonso. I think that's an acceptable explanation as it could have hampered his qualifying had Kimi passed him as well.
I agree - that seems reasonable to me. Hamilton wouldn't have been able to let Alonso past while safely closing the door on Raikkonen, given that Raikkonen was all over Alonso, and Hamilton was far enough ahead that Raikkonen would see when he backed off and have sufficient time to pull in even closer behind Alonso.
However, Hamilton arguably didn't need pole position in the team's eyes, as both drivers were just out to do fuel-burn, rather than set their fastest time. However, Hamilton managed to put in an excellent laptime in the bank in this stage of qualifying - so good that, as we saw, when Alonso was really pushing on brand new tyres he was only able to beat it by 0.1 seconds. Hamilton would have been unable to do that if he'd let Alonso and Raikkonen past.
your not trying to tell us Alonso would have hampered himself in the same situation?
let's face it he would have done exactly the same as Hamilton, his little hissy fits prove that.
I don't know if you've read any of my other posts earlier because i'm definetly not defending Alonso but it's definetly disingenuous for Hamilton or anyone else to say that if he had of let Alonso AND Kimi through (if need be) it would have ruined his own qualifying. All it would have ruined was an opportunity for him to gain that '+1' lap as derekm referred to it. It would not have compromised in the slightest his opportunity to get 2 fast laps in.
I agree - that seems reasonable to me. Hamilton wouldn't have been able to let Alonso past while safely closing the door on Raikkonen, given that Raikkonen was all over Alonso..../snip
See above.
Anyway, let's hope for a good race an Alonso / Hamilton race for the win would be exciting to watch but it'll take Heidfeld or a Lewis mistake to put them on the same piece of tarmac.
Why? Was there a single enjoyable race between Damon Hills adventure in an Arrows in 199x and the rain affected race last year? Not that I can recall.
It remains a processional farce in the vast majority of years. Maybe this year will be helped by Massa & Alonso starting out of position, though personally my money would be on Alonso making some crazy overtaking attempt and taking at least 1 car out of the race on the first corner.
Well there was the following year ('98) when Schumacher switched mid race to a 3 stop strategy and had to put in several blistering laps to overcome the McLarens. Hakkinen was lapped but went on to win the championship....
In 2000 or 2001 there was only 3 seconds that separated the podium positions.
In 2003 Alonso won his first ever race and M.Schumacher was lapped but went on to win the championship....
In 2005 M.Schumacher unexpectedly took pole (unexpected given how appalling the car/tyre package was) but Kimi came from 4th to win on the Sunday. Ok that was hardly unexpected though. Mind you Alonso was lapped but went on to win the championship....
You're not the only one who isn't a fan of the circuit though, when was the last time Brundle has co-commentated here? The past few years we've had Anthony Davidson in the box.
You're not the only one who isn't a fan of the circuit though, when was the last time Brundle has co-commentated here? The past few years we've had Anthony Davidson in the box.
Must be a wanted man in Hungary :D
I hear the Merc AMG on track:DWhat a sound:D
So if they do 4 fast laps of fuel burn, they get 2 laps credit (so lose out on the out lap and the in lap), but if they only do 3 tin they get one lap credit, so still lose out on the out and the in. Nope, it's official, I don't get it :lol:
Though I do get that Hamilton would have been in trouble if he'd been overtaken by 2 cars as he may not have got fuel credit for that delayed lap.
sharp_circle
05-08-2007, 12:05
great start for hamilton - looks good so far - alonso looks in trouble though....
Is Massa going backwards:shrug::lol:
I'm loving some of Damons comments on the radio broadcasts:lol:
I'm loving some of Damons comments on the radio broadcasts:lol:
He's certainly better than James Allen.
Kimi's flying, I wonder if he can catch Hamilton by the end of the race.
Drysolder
05-08-2007, 13:34
McLaren will not be allowed to take part in the post-race award ceremony as constructors, according to the stewards due to appeal against the points penalty, but the drivers will be able to take the podium.
Apparently 'clarification' was sought from the stewards on that point from another team... hmmmm...
Apparently 'clarification' was sought from the stewards on that point from another team... hmmmm...
Actually i heard them say, "after clarification was sought", only Ted added who/what team might have asked that clarification?
For all we know it would be McLaren, after all, don't they want to know if they're allowed to collect or not?
I might be wrong though. ;)
Drysolder
05-08-2007, 13:40
Actually i heard them say, "after clarification was sought", only Ted added who/what team might have asked that clarification?
For all we know it would be McLaren, after all, don't they want to know if they're allowed to collect or not?
I might be wrong though. ;)
Well, yes, but it's all a bit too convenient, eh? ;)
Was that Ron on the radio sounding well depressed?
sharp_circle
05-08-2007, 13:43
Great drive from Hamilton - Thought Alonso did well to get where he did from some early scares.
mullethead
05-08-2007, 13:49
Wow, what an exciting <strike>race</strike> follow that was :oh-hum:
Says a lot about the state of the sport when the most exciting things happen off the track :brickwall
ron looks absolutely shattered, think lewis and alonso are gonna get a proper kicking tommorow.
Pretty rubbish GP track. Looks nice to drive on, but to watch, nahhh, rubbish. It's one step away from Monaco.
Had to laugh at Lewis congratulating Heidfeld as they got out of the cars at the end. "Thanks for taking points from Fernando" perhaps? :D
Otherwise it went as expected. Tactically it didnt work out at all for Massa, but starting out light is unlikely to have given him a better finishing position, his weekend was as good as over after qualifying.
Well there was the following year ('98) ... In 2000 or 2001 ... In 2003 ... In 2005 I wouldnt be surprised if I slept through most of them. Monaco is to me an enjoyable procession, Hungary is just horrific. This year as normal the result was clear before the start, with no legitimate chance of that changing during the race.
You're not the only one who isn't a fan of the circuit though, when was the last time Brundle has co-commentated here? Ah thats an easy one: the last time he did LeMans. His ITV deal allowed him to miss a race, initially for LeMans, now he skips this one since its mid-summer and deadly dull.
So if they do 4 fast laps of fuel burn, they get 2 laps credit (so lose out on the out lap and the in lap), but if they only do 3 tin they get one lap credit, so still lose out on the out and the in. Nope, it's official, I don't get it :lol:Nope, there are separate allowed times (or percentage differences from pole times) for in/out laps to qualify for the fuel credits. Normally theyll be pushing fairly hard on those laps, since if they can afford to take it easy on all the in/out laps then theres time to fit in yet another fuel burn lap. Of course it varies wildly with the track, tyres, etc.
Its easier just to sleep through the first 5-10 mins of qualifying and ignore whats going on during that stage though :D
Andrew70
05-08-2007, 15:13
I guess the 5 place penalty for Alonso is about right, but what really irks me is (if I understand this correctly) that Mclaren can't score constructor points this weekend. This does appear to be a blatant attempt (not unheard of in F1) to make the constructors championship more competitive. I'm sure they've done similar things in the past when Schumacher got sent to the back of the grid when he was winning the championship by a decent margin.
My reading of the situation is, they (the FIA) are embarrassed about the handling of the spy saga but can't back down. Yesterday, McLaren again brought the eyes of the worlds press onto the sport for the wrong reasons.
Call it a loss of patience or the sending of a message, but I think the stewards nullification of constructors points today was a 'correction' for the wishy-washy handling of the other stuff.
The FIA gets to stick to it's guns over Stepneygate and can also refute that the sport goes easy on McLaren.
It's for this reason that I expect any McLaren appeal over constructors points to fail.
BlueDwarf
05-08-2007, 16:10
Says a lot about the state of the sport when the most exciting things happen off the track :brickwall
...on the previous day.
At least with F1 you can sit down, watch the 1st corner, go out for a couple of hours to do somthing more constructive (watch paint dry) and then just watch the last part of the last lap.
If, by some miracle of miracles, there had been one of those old fashioned "overtaking" manouvres, it'll be well repeated. ITV would have been on an ad break, so you wouldn't have seen it live anyway.
You guys hear that Alonso and then Hamilton interview after the race with that Holly Samos? Highlights include...
TO ALONSO -
"Is it fair to say you expected to be treated as the no.1 driver this season and that hasn't happened?"
FA: "Correct"
"Are you happy to stay at the team next season?"
FA: "We'll see"
TO HAMILTON -
"What did you make of the penalty issued to Fernando last night?"
LH: "If anything I think it was too light a penalty" :lol:
"How would you class your relationship with Ron and Fernando?"
LH: "I can only try to speak to Fernando, but if he doesn't want to speak to me, he doesn't want to speak to me. There's only one person in the team not speaking to me at the moment"
You guys hear that Alonso and then Hamilton interview after the race with that Holly Samos? Highlights include...
TO ALONSO -
"Is it fair to say you expected to be treated as the no.1 driver this season and that hasn't happened?"
FA: "Correct"
"Are you happy to stay at the team next season?"
FA: "We'll see"
TO HAMILTON -
"What did you make of the penalty issued to Fernando last night?"
LH: "If anything I think it was too light a penalty" :lol:
"How would you class your relationship with Ron and Fernando?"
LH: "I can only try to speak to Fernando, but if he doesn't want to speak to me, he doesn't want to speak to me. There's only one person in the team not speaking to me at the moment"
Christ! These two are like 5 year olds.
Not the best of races but pleased that Lewis got the win. Not so sure that Dennis was so pleased after the race, though. Looks like he knows has a tough decision to make for next season - I don't think that Alonso will stomach a second season with Lewis, yet there's little doubt that Ron's protege would be a formidable opponent for McLaren in another car, not to mention the loss of the sponsorship goldmine. And the chances are that should Alonso leave he would return to Renault or join a team who are currently in the doldrums, such as Toyota, which could bring more in the way of competition on the track.
Something has to give, though. Regardless of who was right and who was wrong, these problems are being caused by combining two extremely strong drivers that both have very big egos in the same team. Alonso, in particular, is not coping well with being a joint number one, after being the undisputed leader in the Renault team. Hamilton is young, but smart, and would appear to be deliberately trying to get under Alonso's skin. And it appears to be working, so Hamilton is unlikely to stop doing it, either.
Yes, he made a big error if he really did say those things to Ron over the radio, but I doubt it will be terminal to his career at McLaren unless he repeats them in the future.
At this current moment in time, I strongly suspect that Hamilton will keep his seat for next season, regardless of whether he wins the championship or not. Alonso will not accept that and so return to Renault or look for another challenge. Ron will then go for a driver more likely to be happy to sit in the same team as Lewis and hope that Alonso doesn't come back to haunt him.
I think things at McLaren are pretty interesting :)
Wouldn't like to call who gets the drive next season if the decision has to be made. Am I right in thinking Alonso had a two year deal and Hamilton a one year deal? Not that it really count in making a decision.
Panavision
05-08-2007, 18:44
Alonso is in the best car, yet it's not good enough for him?
Alonso should've mixed with the team at the beginning of the season. Spent lots of time in the factory with the guys - I don't think he really managed that because he feels isolated. I think he just underestimated the move.
It's for this reason that I expect any McLaren appeal over constructors points to fail.Cant we go with the even simpler reason: Mad Max hates Ron?
McLaren havent a hope in hell in their appeal for precisely that reason. The farcical decision regarding the podium today was just another example of this.
adencool
05-08-2007, 18:53
after the results and events of this weekend im sure that next year (maybe next week) maca wont have two potential WDC drivers on thier hands.
Teams in F1 all have 1 main driver and 1 second driver, if lewis is not prepared to play second fiddle, then it bye bye. personnal i would like to see him go to toyota, their stating to look faster, and ralf future already looks uncertain
Um, no, they havent.
The only team with any legitimate title hopes to play that game in recent years were Ferrari, due to Schumacher being, well, Schumacher.
after the results and events of this weekend im sure that next year (maybe next week) maca wont have two potential WDC drivers on thier hands.
Teams in F1 all have 1 main driver and 1 second driver, if lewis is not prepared to play second fiddle, then it bye bye. personnal i would like to see him go to toyota, their stating to look faster, and ralf future already looks uncertain
Lewis won't be prepared to play second fiddle, but I don't think he will mind being in a team with equal status, at least so long as he has free reign to unsettle his team mate by any legal means!
Alonso clearly wants number one status guaranteed, which McLaren never have provided, even to Senna or Hakkinen. I just don't see Alonso remaining without getting guarantees over that status, even though he has another year on the contract and Lewis is on a one season deal. After all, even if Lewis leaves, whoever replaces him will still have that equal status. In my opinion, Alonso was possibly attracted to McLaren because there was a promise that he'd be 'partnered with a Rookie - and when have you ever known a Rookie to be number one in a team'. He probably just never envisaged that he'd get such a challenge from within and possibly even McLaren didn't realise themselves just how competitive Lewis would be.
I'm sure that McLaren will want to retain Lewis, but you could not rule out right now that if Lewis got the right offer on the table during the upcoming 'silly season' (i.e. Ferrari, BMW or Renault), he might just take it. Especially if McLaren even hint that there is a possibility of losing his drive.
In my opinion, Alonso was possibly attracted to McLaren because there was a promise that he'd be 'partnered with a Rookie - and when have you ever known a Rookie to be number one in a team'.When Alonso signed he had no idea who his team mate at McLaren would be. Remember that the deal was done a year in advance, before Lewis had driven a single GP2 race and when the chances of him getting the McLaren drive in '07 were slim to none.
Speculating that Alonso went to McLaren because of the uncertainty at Renault or because of money is fine, but to assume he thought he'd have a rookie team mate seems ridiculous.
mklion123
05-08-2007, 20:38
got this from a non F1 site rumoured to be from someone working with Mclaren, but not for them.
It all starts as we all know with Hamilton not letting Alonso by. This is correct Hamilton does not let him by. For which the team will later make him pay. Yes Alonso held Hamilton, but he wasn't really responsible. Dennis would do this so that Hamilton would not get that extra lap in. He knew the time was going to run out for Hamilton.
Up to here nothing is strange.
The FUN stars now, Alonso was sitting there on pit without tyre warmers. Which means his tyres were cold? The other interesting part of the ordeal is that Alonso was send out on Used Hard Prime Tyres.
Dennis did not allow Hamilton time for another lap, but he did everything necessary so that Alonso would not get the Pole, but Alonso still did it. This made Mr. Dennis furious. For which he went to the Physiotherapist, he told Fabrizio to tell Alonso not to talk about the used tyres, that he would handle this.
Mr. Dennis still made it to the weighting room to tell Alonso quickly not to talk about the used tyres. This is why we almost don't see a congratulations from Mr. Dennis.
Alonso was furious with this and walked away from Mr. Dennis, but did not talk about this in the press conference.
After Hamilton realized that he would not be able to make that final lap.
Hamilton first vented his anger to Dennis over his in-car radio. "Don't *********** do that to me again," he said. Dennis replied: "Don't *********** talk to me like that," at which Hamilton told him: "Go *********** swivel."
The Truth is the Truth and it’s wicked.
This team is going through severe pain, Alonso is in the middle of a war and he has no army to back himself up.
That is why I need to share this information.
Think of it as you like, but if you don't believe it later on when Alonso is no longer at Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes you will realize what I have just told you is true."
so it would seem if this is true, that Dennis was upset that Alonso got pole, and not that he held Hamilton up.
When Alonso signed he had no idea who his team mate at McLaren would be. Remember that the deal was done a year in advance, before Lewis had driven a single GP2 race and when the chances of him getting the McLaren drive in '07 were slim to none.
Speculating that Alonso went to McLaren because of the uncertainty at Renault or because of money is fine, but to assume he thought he'd have a rookie team mate seems ridiculous.
My post clearly says possibly, which means there is no assumption there, just a thought that something might be possible. It would be ridiculous to assume, I agree, but I wasn't assuming anything of the sort. I'm just trying to think of reasons why Alonso went to McLaren, given that he's been miserable ever since he joined.
Money or the uncertainty at Renault could be the reason, as you say, but then he still has the money and the McLaren is still a better option this season than Renault, so if it was for either reason it shouldn't be be making him miserable. The fact that he's joined the leaders in the Constructors Championship and is 7 points away from leading the Drivers Championship in the same car as the leader suggest that he actually made the right choice, so again, he shouldn't be upset.
In fact, the only thing he seems upset with is that the team isn't giving him number 1 status. But why is he upset with this when McLaren have always had drivers with equal status? The only possibilities I can think of are that he was either promised or he assumed that the other driver wouldn't have equal status, or he was promised or assumed that the other driver would be equal but wouldn't be a threat. I suppose he could also have been unaware of McLaren's policy on drivers, but I doubt there are many who know about F1 that don't know this about McLaren.
Maybe my post wasn't well written, and I should rephrase my original post to suggest he could, possibly, have been promised or assumed he'd be partnered with a lesser driver who wouldn't be a big threat, and that 'lesser' driver has turned out to be better than both Alonso and McLaren thought possible.
got this from a non F1 site rumoured to be from someone working with Mclaren, but not for them.
It all starts as we all know with Hamilton not letting Alonso by. This is correct Hamilton does not let him by. For which the team will later make him pay. Yes Alonso held Hamilton, but he wasn't really responsible. Dennis would do this so that Hamilton would not get that extra lap in. He knew the time was going to run out for Hamilton.
Up to here nothing is strange.
The FUN stars now, Alonso was sitting there on pit without tyre warmers. Which means his tyres were cold? The other interesting part of the ordeal is that Alonso was send out on Used Hard Prime Tyres.
Dennis did not allow Hamilton time for another lap, but he did everything necessary so that Alonso would not get the Pole, but Alonso still did it. This made Mr. Dennis furious. For which he went to the Physiotherapist, he told Fabrizio to tell Alonso not to talk about the used tyres, that he would handle this.
Mr. Dennis still made it to the weighting room to tell Alonso quickly not to talk about the used tyres. This is why we almost don't see a congratulations from Mr. Dennis.
Alonso was furious with this and walked away from Mr. Dennis, but did not talk about this in the press conference.
After Hamilton realized that he would not be able to make that final lap.
Hamilton first vented his anger to Dennis over his in-car radio. "Don't *********** do that to me again," he said. Dennis replied: "Don't *********** talk to me like that," at which Hamilton told him: "Go *********** swivel."
The Truth is the Truth and it’s wicked.
This team is going through severe pain, Alonso is in the middle of a war and he has no army to back himself up.
That is why I need to share this information.
Think of it as you like, but if you don't believe it later on when Alonso is no longer at Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes you will realize what I have just told you is true."
so it would seem if this is true, that Dennis was upset that Alonso got pole, and not that he held Hamilton up.
That sounds like a big pile of stinking nonsense to be honest.
Ron Dennis upset one of his drivers got pole? Not a chance.
The Truth is the Truth and it’s wicked.
This team is going through severe pain, Alonso is in the middle of a war and he has no army to back himself up.
That is why I need to share this information.
Think of it as you like, but if you don't believe it later on when Alonso is no longer at Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes you will realize what I have just told you is true."
Whoever wrote this, does not have access to insider information at Mclaren, and probably needs there mum and dad's permission to stay out late.
My post clearly says possiblyFair enough, sorry :)
My preferred theory on why Alonso jumped is simply that the chance arose at the right time: Renault were talking budget cuts and we had the constant rumours questioning their continuing participation in F1.
Its perfectly possible Alonso expected his teammate to be either Montoya or De La Rosa, but I expect he has enough confidence in his own ability that he'd expect to be beating his teammate on the track regardless of who it might be.
Might have been mentioned here before, but regardless of the outcome of the "spy" saga, it would probably be reason enough for Alonso to get out of his McLaren contract if he so wished because he could say it had damaged his image. I'm sure there'd be a "get out" in the contract somewhere for circumstances like that.
After this weekend's events I doubt Alonso will ever properly integrate into the team, especially as he seems to keep commenting to the Spanish media that McLaren don't want him to win or get pole. I'd certainly not be surprised if one of the pair weren't there next year.
I wonder what on earth is going to happen next time they start next to each other on the grid! Fireworks for the rest of the season I'm sure :thumbs:
I'm not sure this race's smiley awards will fit in one post but here goes.
Hamilton.:) for the race. :nono: to getting all caught in Team Hamilton hype and putting himself first ahead of the team. :eek: If true that it was a complaint by Lewis and/or his 'entourage' that led to the stewards starting the investigation against Alonso and that he gave a separate/different testimony to his team*. :lol: For the naughty words his 'crew mate Pharrell has been teaching him.
Kimi :thumbs:
Heidfeld :)
Alonso :| for the race. :nono::cuckoo::D for the extra 10 seconds thinking about his tyres.
Ralf, Kovi and Vettel. :)
All those at Ferrari that forgot to refuel Massa in qualifying :brickwall
Ron Dennis 'Spin' :oh-hum: I do kind of feel bad for him in almost equal measure though. :?::eek:
*Ron Dennis has said they have not yet decided if they will appeal. Haug said in an interview that they wouldn't. If they do appeal then at the ICA, which the press can attend, any differing stories between the team would be [re]played out for all to see.
Andrew70
05-08-2007, 23:44
I can't see Ron giving giving Lewis the elbow as he's invested a lot of time and money in his career. He's also got a fast driver on the cheap for the next year or two.
I can't see Fernando voluntarily walking out either because where would he go? Ferrari seem happy enough with their pair and no other team is consistent enough to give him the kind of car he already has at McLaren.
I don't think Fernando was earning megabucks by F1 standards at Renault so I think financial reward would play a large part in any decision making too.
Bearhorn
06-08-2007, 00:44
Pironi/Villeneuve.
If Fernando Alonso wins the world championship this season, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he will retire. He has gone on record many times that he is not in F1 for the long term and the McLaren silliness is probably doing nothing to change his view.
The McLaren craziness really just highlights to all the other teams and drivers how important it is to have a clear driver hierarchy within the team. I would like to see both of their drivers continue to compromise each other's race so that Kimi Raikonnen can make up ground on them. I daresay Ferrari's fumble with Massa (which looks a little 'convenient' now) will mean that he has to support Raikonnen's pursuit of the title forthwith - irony in F1? Who would have thought it?
All those at Ferrari that forgot to refuel Massa in qualifying :brickwall :cuckoo: to the world for accepting the refuelling excuse and not questioning the total lack of performance Massa had in his first run in Q2. A special :lol:for Blundell for stating that Massa "broke down" on his way out of the pitlane when he stopped to go back for the fuel.
Ron Dennis 'Spin' :oh-hum:
...
*Ron Dennis has said they have not yet decided if they will appeal. What else could he say? He tried to spin it without resorting to lying, he failed, by the end of the race you could see he was basically just sickened with it all.
How can they appeal? Compare the post-race comments from Fernando and Lewis - that alone would be enough to have any appeal thrown out. There need to be some serious discussions within McLaren in the next few days, mistakes happen but theres no need to make matters worse for yourselves after the fact.
Sammy709Sony930
06-08-2007, 10:39
Oh how I'd love to be a fly in the wall in Ron's office today!
I was also very intrigued by the radio broadcast by Ron Dennis at the end to LH:
he kept going on about standard post-race procedure and remember this is being broadcast - wonder what he feared?
I also think the "pick up as much debris as you can" is a little close to the pale...
Scruffy the Janitor
06-08-2007, 13:05
Kimi :thumbs:
EH?
For not being able to overtake a guy in a car with wonky steering??
Surely the big thumbs should be for Hamilton for being able to modulate his pace to constantly be doing just enough to keep Kimi behind him in an ailing car?
I am no Lewis-o-phile but he was clearly the best performer on the (admittedly quite dull) day.
Pironi/Villeneuve.
One of them dead in fortnight ? My money's on Alonso as he seems to be getting pretty rattled.
GV was so ****** off at Pironi that he was listening to offers from Ron Dennis for 83. I can't believe Alonso won't try to pay his way out of McLaren, and Toyota would pay him enough to be able to afford it.
More likely for 2007 is another Prost/Senna situation where they start taking each other out.
Radiohead
06-08-2007, 13:54
Alonso would surely be confirmed as being on crack to go to Toyota. He might as well retire as do that.
Regardless, he's looking a bit of a prima donna and Hamilton is doing very well on the mind games front. He's the real deal on the evidence so far.
cheeseypuffs
06-08-2007, 14:04
I cannot see a way Alonso can leave McLaren unless it is to Ferrari, which is not on the cards. Any team outside of the top two is a clear step backwards and would indicate that he was running from a challenge. However you look at it if he were to leave it would show him as a quitter rather than a fighter, no matter how much he may argue that he never had the support from the team it would give more weight to those that felt he only won world titles because he had the best equipment and the benefit of team orders.
He's the real deal on the evidence so far.
When he's ahead. He seemed to go to pieces when he was a few paces down a few races ago [Silverstone? :thinking:]
Not quite the finished article...
Radiohead
06-08-2007, 14:33
Oh come on - who is after a handful of races.
We really do like putting down talent in this country don't we.
no, I just find the creaming over him a little dull and it detracts from his obvious incredible talent.
cheeseypuffs
06-08-2007, 15:25
When he's ahead. He seemed to go to pieces when he was a few paces down a few races ago [Silverstone? :thinking:]
Not quite the finished article...He made a poor decision to change tyres too early, which lead him to just miss out on the points. Compare his run from the back of the grid to Massa's performance at the weekend :shrug:
Once he knew he wasn't going to get onto the podium he dropped off the pace completely and seemed to lose interest.
fattyboombatty
06-08-2007, 21:00
When he's ahead. He seemed to go to pieces when he was a few paces down a few races ago
what utter rubbish:cuckoo:
MaxNutter
07-08-2007, 10:26
amazing petulance from both McLaren drivers ... Hamilton needs to learn that it's a team sport, and if he doesn't like that (especially at McLaren) he can go elsewhere, and Alonso (and his people) needs to learn to let the team handle any punishment, rather than exact revenge themselves ... unless Ron was behind all this as mentioned ...
to be fair, any accusations levelled at Alonso and his ego can also be directed towards Hamilton, he got uppity at Monaco too, going against team orders again ...
what utter rubbish:cuckoo:
thanks for your masterful insight and considered responce :razz:
Once he knew he wasn't going to get onto the podium he dropped off the pace completely and seemed to lose interest.
It's been a long time since I've followed F1, but like it or not LH has at least made the sport more interesting / higher profile. anyway... I could be wrong but don't they have to use the same engine for more than one race these days:shrug: could argue all he was doing was protecting his engine when he had no chance of getting onto the podium
True and I don't dispute that. I was referring to the manner of the abrupt change of pace at the only time he seems to have had to chase up rather than squabble for lead.
cheeseypuffs
07-08-2007, 12:25
Any driver will be slower behind traffic than at the head of the field. He made steady progress through the tailenders and midfielders, and even overtook Fisi near the end of the race, not being able to stoll past the BMWs in a couple of laps is not a sleight on him really. compare his performance from the back of the grid to that of Massa (also in a car worthy of a podium place) in Hungary :shrug:
Bearhorn
07-08-2007, 16:40
compare his performance from the back of the grid to that of Massa (also in a car worthy of a podium place) in Hungary :shrug:
And then compare the Nurburgring to the Hungaroring which is Monaco without the walls.
fattyboombatty
07-08-2007, 17:39
thanks for your masterful insight and considered response :razz:
it's all it deserved. there's no evidence to suggest that hamilton could've achieved a better result than 9th. saying he went to pieces is absurd. and considering that is the only F1 race that he has EVER raced in where he hasn't got a podium it makes it even more bizarre that you would say he goes to pieces when he's not leading.
Get real, you'll find that I referred to the incident in the singular rather than the sweeping generalization you've turned it into
Bearhorn
07-08-2007, 20:21
amazing petulance from both McLaren drivers ... Hamilton needs to learn that it's a team sport, and if he doesn't like that (especially at McLaren) he can go elsewhere, and Alonso (and his people) needs to learn to let the team handle any punishment, rather than exact revenge themselves ... unless Ron was behind all this as mentioned ...
to be fair, any accusations levelled at Alonso and his ego can also be directed towards Hamilton, he got uppity at Monaco too, going against team orders again ...
I agree with this. I am not a fan of either McLaren driver as both have committed the cardinal sin of letting their egos get the better of them to such an extent now that each believes that they are bigger than their own team. The rookie McLaren driver has been somewhat naive as regards what F1 is all about. So there are team orders and the like requiring you to defer to your team mate sometimes - rather than whinge about them in between meaningless mutterings about living the dream, he would have been much better advised to observe and learn safe in the knowledge that his time will come as long as he keeps his nose clean and meanwhile to be thankful that he is lucky enough to be driving a car most drivers would otherwise give their right arm to drive.
Ron Dennis would do well to send these two wallies to Turkey at the end of the month and keep the cars and the rest of the McLaren team back in Woking and see how fast either of them can go :mad:
Have been thinking about this further, and is it actually possible that Hamilton's decision to defy team orders was actually a coolly calculated bit of thinking that has paid off, big time? OK, I'm sure that he never would have thought that Alonso would block him in the pit lane and the move was possibly designed simply to get even further under Alonso's skin at a crucial time, but every way you look at it, Hamilton has come out of this in far better shape than his team mate. He might have lost a few brownie points with the boss, but I'm sure nowhere near all of them.
By defying one team order, which has simply been put down to being young, inexperienced or even stupid in most quarters, he has provoked a childish reaction from his team mate, that appears to have got Alonso on the verge of quitting the team and his team apparently saying he can go, and on top of it all Hamilton has managed to extend his lead in the Championship as a result.
By defying them and getting a bit sweary, Hamilton also sent a very strong message to the team that he now is very much aware that McLaren probably need him more than Hamilton needs McLaren. With Alonso seemingly lost to them, could McLaren afford to let Hamilton leave too? If they did, it will only lead to Hamilton being snapped up by a rival.
I think that time will tell that Alonso fell right into a trap that Hamilton set for him last weekend, allowing Hamilton to assert himself as the unofficial number 1 driver at McLaren, possibly for years to come.
fattyboombatty
07-08-2007, 23:27
Have been thinking about this further, and is it actually possible that Hamilton's decision to defy team orders was actually a coolly calculated bit of thinking that has paid off, big time? OK, I'm sure that he never would have thought that Alonso would block him in the pit lane and the move was possibly designed simply to get even further under Alonso's skin at a crucial time, but every way you look at it, Hamilton has come out of this in far better shape than his team mate. He might have lost a few brownie points with the boss, but I'm sure nowhere near all of them.
By defying one team order, which has simply been put down to being young, inexperienced or even stupid in most quarters, he has provoked a childish reaction from his team mate, that appears to have got Alonso on the verge of quitting the team and his team apparently saying he can go, and on top of it all Hamilton has managed to extend his lead in the Championship as a result.
By defying them and getting a bit sweary, Hamilton also sent a very strong message to the team that he now is very much aware that McLaren probably need him more than Hamilton needs McLaren. With Alonso seemingly lost to them, could McLaren afford to let Hamilton leave too? If they did, it will only lead to Hamilton being snapped up by a rival.
I think that time will tell that Alonso fell right into a trap that Hamilton set for him last weekend, allowing Hamilton to assert himself as the unofficial number 1 driver at McLaren, possibly for years to come.
could be. of course if dick dastardly had done this there be several people on here creaming themselves to say that it's entirely acceptable as you have to be ruthless to win. i'd love hamilton to get a ferrari drive just so the ferrari fanboys on here would have to start kissing his ass.:oh-hum:
Maybe the reason Alonso went to Maclaren with no promise of who he would be driving with was because he genuinely felt he would be head and shoulders above everyone else this season. Don't forget that you don't become world champion without thinking a lot of your ability. The only person who he may have felt could have challenged him was Schumacher, and he'd retired. Hamilton's performance has been a completely leftfield development which no-one could have predicted.
crazyfool_col
08-08-2007, 08:53
I dont think Hamilton was that cunning in fact i bet within the team he is to blame for Alonso starting 5th and the team getting no constructors points.
Mclaren have never in my viewing had a Number 1 driver until mathmatics dictate otherwise.
There will have to be alot of rebuilding in the team to see Alonso & Hamilton at Mclaren next year.
Although Alonso would be the favourite to leave I think there is still an outside chance Hamiton could be the one to leave.
Good for the sport mind one of the most talked about / exciting seasons that I can recall.
MaxNutter
08-08-2007, 09:08
Have been thinking about this further, and is it actually possible that Hamilton's decision to defy team orders was actually a coolly calculated bit of thinking that has paid off, big time? OK, I'm sure that he never would have thought that Alonso would block him in the pit lane and the move was possibly designed simply to get even further under Alonso's skin at a crucial time, but every way you look at it, Hamilton has come out of this in far better shape than his team mate. He might have lost a few brownie points with the boss, but I'm sure nowhere near all of them.
...
I think that time will tell that Alonso fell right into a trap that Hamilton set for him last weekend, allowing Hamilton to assert himself as the unofficial number 1 driver at McLaren, possibly for years to come.
i'm not sure you could say Alonso "fell into a trap" if the orders for his pitlane 'delay' came from Ron himself ...
and what's is this with Hamilton? he can't even fight his own battles, he has to get his dad, Anthony 'TV Superstar' Hamilton to run to the FIA for him ...
Mclaren have never in my viewing had a Number 1 driver until mathmatics dictate otherwise.
pretty much spot on, under Ron's leadership ...
interesting article here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6935417.stm
and Ed Gorman's blog in the times is good too:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/2007/08/drivers-out-of-.html
Bearhorn
08-08-2007, 10:06
Mclaren have never in my viewing had a Number 1 driver until mathmatics dictate otherwise.
Indeed, but ultimately quixotic.
What hasn't been mentioned here yet and needs to be is that McLaren are where they are because of Alonso. It is widely acknowledged that it is Alonso who provides the setup data and telemetry to set up both cars (as it should be given his greater experience) over any given weekend. There was a period during the British and European GPs when Alonso deliberately sandbagged on some laps to throw engineers off the ideal setup and in both cases his was the first McLaren home come the race. After the Spanish GP when Ferrari and Felipé Massa looked to have the measure of McLaren, Alonso went and did all the testing himself excluding his team mate. Admittedly, on the selfish pretext of catching up on learning the new Bridgestone tyres but Alonso undeniably (if unwittingly) contributed to the McLaren being quicker by some margin over the Ferraris in the next races at Montreal and Indianapolis (although ironically it was his team mate who would benefit most).
What a lot of people (including, it would appear, Alonso's rookie team mate) don't realise is that Alonso is instrumental in the background of that team in developing the car and giving his feedback and input. This isn't being disparaging to the rookie, as a rookie he can't be expected to have the skill to develop the car but it's a reflection on where the humility needs to be applied.
There's no doubt that Alonso's team mate deserves his seat at McLaren on talent alone and I don't begrudge him that. What I find abhorrent is that his arrogance is so complete now that he seems to value it so little. Why did he mouth off to the press after the team orders at Monaco? Why did he disobey team orders at Hungary? Why did he swear at his boss at Hungary? Surely not actions of someone who respects their own fortune and the circumstances which surround it? Perhaps it's a mistake to give good young drivers everything they want from day one as they will just take it for granted. Bear in mind the likes of Alonso, Hakkinen, Raikonnen and even Senna worked hard to end up in a McLaren seat toiling away for a few seasons in lesser machinery (Minardi, Lotus, Sauber and Toleman respectively)...
MaxNutter
08-08-2007, 10:12
Indeed, but ultimately quixotic.
What hasn't been mentioned here yet and needs to be is that McLaren are where they are because of Alonso. It is widely acknowledged that it is Alonso who provides the setup data and telemetry to set up both cars (as it should be given his greater experience) over any given weekend. There was a period during the British and European GPs when Alonso deliberately sandbagged on some laps to throw engineers off the ideal setup and in both cases his was the first McLaren home come the race. After the Spanish GP when Ferrari and Felipé Massa looked to have the measure of McLaren, Alonso went and did all the testing himself excluding his team mate. Admittedly, on the selfish pretext of catching up on learning the new Bridgestone tyres but Alonso undeniably (if unwittingly) contributed to the McLaren being quicker by some margin over the Ferraris in the next races at Montreal and Indianapolis (although ironically it was his team mate who would benefit most).
What a lot of people (including, it would appear, Alonso's rookie team mate) don't realise is that Alonso is instrumental in the background of that team in developing the car and giving his feedback and input. This isn't being disparaging to the rookie, as a rookie he can't be expected to have the skill to develop the car but it's a reflection on where the humility needs to be applied.
There's no doubt that Alonso's team mate deserves his seat at McLaren on talent alone and I don't begrudge him that. What I find abhorrent is that his arrogance is so complete now that he seems to value it so little. Why did he mouth off to the press after the team orders at Monaco? Why did he disobey team orders at Hungary? Why did he swear at his boss at Hungary? Surely not actions of someone who respects their own fortune and the circumstances which surround it? Perhaps it's a mistake to give good young drivers everything they want from day one as they will just take it for granted. Bear in mind the likes of Alonso, Hakkinen, Raikonnen and even Senna worked hard to end up in a McLaren seat toiling away for a few seasons in lesser machinery (Minardi, Lotus, Sauber and Toleman respectively)...
totally agree ... what Hamilton is doing could ultimately be self-defeating anyway ... if the situation arises where Alonso can no longer win the championship, and Hamilton finds himself battling Massa or Kimi, i wouldn't blame Alonso one bit if he refused to back him up ... he might find it fairly hard with all the knives in his back ...
Indeed, but ultimately quixotic.
For the benefit of others who like me didnt know...
quix·ot·ic /kwɪkˈsɒtɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kwik-sot-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) resembling or befitting Don Quixote.
2. extravagantly chivalrous or romantic; visionary, impractical, or impracticable.
3. impulsive and often rashly unpredictable.
4. A word used 15 times in DVDforums history. 10 of those 15 times by bearhorn
;)
Bearhorn
08-08-2007, 10:48
4. A word used 15 times in DVDforums history. 10 of those 15 times by bearhorn
;)
:lol: It is one of my favourite words of all time.
I tend to (as in this case) use the word as defined in the second paragraph - to be caught up in doing noble deeds even though it is ultimately impractical - which describes perfectly Ron Dennis' predicament.
:lol: It is one of my favourite words of all time.
I tend to (as in this case) use the word as defined in the second paragraph - to be caught up in doing noble deeds even though it is ultimately impractical - which describes perfectly Ron Dennis' predicament.
One of mine too now.
:lol: at your reason for editing
Hmm, wouldn't mind dropping this word into conversations then, but is that the correct pronunciation (kwik-sot-ik)? If it comes from Don "Kee-oh-tay", shouldn't it more closeley resemble that?
For the benefit of others who like me didnt know...
quix·ot·ic /kwɪkˈsɒtɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kwik-sot-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) resembling or befitting Don Quixote.
2. extravagantly chivalrous or romantic; visionary, impractical, or impracticable.
3. impulsive and often rashly unpredictable.
4. A word used 15 times in DVDforums history. 10 of those 15 times by bearhorn
;)
I find the pronunciation interesting as it refers to Don Quixote [I've only ever heard it pronounced Ki-Hotay] and yet the adjective is Kwik...:shrug:
D'OH
maybe I should read through to the end of a thread!
Bearhorn
08-08-2007, 12:24
Hmm, wouldn't mind dropping this word into conversations then, but is that the correct pronunciation (kwik-sot-ik)? If it comes from Don "Kee-oh-tay", shouldn't it more closeley resemble that?
Until the definition was posted, I had only known 'quixotic' ('qui' - as in quick, 'xotic' as in exotic) to have the second of those definitions i.e. as I said above, to be caught up in doing noble deeds even though it is impractical to do so or, in context - to give your drivers equal status even though it causes your drivers to become uncontrollable little brats who may yet cost you the championship.
The Bear
08-08-2007, 19:10
Indeed, but ultimately quixotic.
What hasn't been mentioned here yet and needs to be is that McLaren are where they are because of Alonso. It is widely acknowledged that it is Alonso who provides the setup data and telemetry to set up both cars (as it should be given his greater experience) over any given weekend. There was a period during the British and European GPs when Alonso deliberately sandbagged on some laps to throw engineers off the ideal setup and in both cases his was the first McLaren home come the race. After the Spanish GP when Ferrari and Felipé Massa looked to have the measure of McLaren, Alonso went and did all the testing himself excluding his team mate. Admittedly, on the selfish pretext of catching up on learning the new Bridgestone tyres but Alonso undeniably (if unwittingly) contributed to the McLaren being quicker by some margin over the Ferraris in the next races at Montreal and Indianapolis (although ironically it was his team mate who would benefit most).
What a lot of people (including, it would appear, Alonso's rookie team mate) don't realise is that Alonso is instrumental in the background of that team in developing the car and giving his feedback and input. This isn't being disparaging to the rookie, as a rookie he can't be expected to have the skill to develop the car but it's a reflection on where the humility needs to be applied.
It seems Eddie Jordan agrees with you:
Former F1 team boss Eddie Jordan has warned Lewis Hamilton to cool off in his row with McLaren team mate Fernando Alonso as it may backfire on him.
"It's magic what is happening, but Lewis has to be very careful he doesn't get too political," Jordan told BBC Sport. "He has to be careful he doesn't say too much that ostracises him or puts him in a position where Ron Dennis has to make a choice."
Jordan warned Hamilton to realise that it has been Alonso's input to the McLaren team that has helped them both enjoy a winning car this season.
"I believe McLaren is giving him a car that's good enough because of what Alonso has brought to the team," Jordan added. "Alonso does feel ostracised. He feels all the team, initially anyway, was going Hamilton's way when he was the big story."
Andrew70
10-08-2007, 12:00
A new eight part F1 TV series (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32406) to look out for.
Sadly, there are no immediate plans for a terrestrial transmission.
Doesn't sound like we're missing much to be honest given it's about the business side of F1.
Andrew70
11-08-2007, 01:25
I guess it's of no interest to anyone else then if you've decided it's already worthless.
Move along everyone.
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