View Full Version : Bi-wiring ... is it really all that?
Lambchop
08-07-2007, 18:03
I'm looking to strip down my living room to install some cable runs for speaker cable into the (solid) floor, but I reckon it'll actually be a more fiddely job requiring more floor area to be chiselled out if I install using the gale bi-wire cabling I already have, just because its so only bloomin' bulky. so my question is - is biwiring really worth it?? When do you really notice the difference?
I suppose I'd also ask why should there be much of a difference if all your other components are good quality? I imagine there will be some small electrical differences due to losses in the sister speaker (i.e. bass loss in the tweeter, and vice versa), but would these really result in an audible difference when using high quality components (minimal losses) to begin with?
:)
In a nutshell? Yes definitely, with good kit you'll hear more difference not less.
Keiron99
08-07-2007, 18:51
Well, in my opinion...it makes no difference at all. There's absolutely no scientific reason it should, and no conclusive evidence from properly controlled listening tests to show it does either. Many top manufacturers (for example, Dynaudio, like I have) don't include the facility and have publicly slated the idea. (Cable manufacturers inevitably do say it makes a difference!).
Mine are currently Bi wired but only because I upgraded my speaker cable and had plenty of it. Can I tell the difference? well in all honestly no.
Maybe if I could flick a switch and do a direct comparison I might be able to hear some difference.
I can hand on heart say I can hear a difference, and I'm no £52 per metre cable junkie, I tend to be an extreme sceptic of most audiophile stuff, but on my B&W's I could definitely tell when they were bi-wired.
Of course, I had an amp that was bi-wirable too, I know some have the one output to two inputs, and I doubt you'd get much benefit from that...
Bi-wiring - debatable
Bi-amping - definitely
Though I could hear a difference with my Aura VA100 II and Mission 580SE speakers when bi-wired. Then again I have been using £250 solid silver speaker cable (I won it in a comp).
I've read loads of articles on the subject and there is such debate on the subject that I came to the conclusion that there are other things I should do first to make some improvements.
One of those was replacing the gold plated bridging plate on the cable connectors with decent quality speaker cable. I did notice a difference when I did this.
Tried it with my B&W DM603s and a NAD high-end amp (370 I think, but my mind's gone blank!). So, pretty nice kit...
I honestly couldn't tell the difference, and I had the cable, so it wasn't a case of not wanting to spend the money.
I ended up not bi-wiring because the cabling looked neater without it.
I've read loads of articles on the subject and there is such debate on the subject that I came to the conclusion that there are other things I should do first to make some improvements.
One of those was replacing the gold plated bridging plate on the cable connectors with decent quality speaker cable. I did notice a difference when I did this.
What - 2 or 3 inches of speaker cabling sounded different to the same length of solid metal?
What about the wires inside the speakers? Maybe you should replace them too!
Keiron99
09-07-2007, 09:37
What about the wires inside the speakers? Maybe you should replace them too!
I've always maintained that is the the case, even though I don't believe it makes any difference! (Cable believers would be shocked to see the skinny bits of cheapo wire used inside hifi components). A system is only as strong as the weakest link. If you do believe that cables influence the sound, the cable must run from the PCB of the amp direct to the crossover. In fact, when I was much younger, I actually did this with a Musical Fidelity A1 amp and speakers I can't remember now. Made absolutely no difference to my ears.
On a hifi forum I visit someone has offered that if someone can demonstrate an ability to hear cable sound under level matched blind conditions, he will give them a thousand pounds (edit: just checked, it's up to £10k) Noone has ever taken him up on it.
On a hifi forum I visit someone has offered that if someone can demonstrate an ability to hear cable sound under level matched blind conditions, he will give them a thousand pounds. Noone has ever taken him up on it.
That's because it isn't possible, the idea that the human ear can detect the difference in bandwidth between different bits of wires is ludicrous.
However, that has nothing to do with bi-wiring which is the proper separation of frequencies at source, which can be detected quite easily in my experience.
i tend to look on it more as a placebo effect. The more you want to hear the difference, the more you will.
It's all too easy to get caught up in audiophile stuff, and then you're left not listening to the music anymore, but the quality of the sound from your system, which is ironic really beacause you bought the system in the first place to listen to music.
IMHO a lot of audiophiles I have met very rarely truely enjoy the music they are listening too anymore because they have got so obsessed with the equipment that they may as well just listen to demo discs to get their kicks.
i tend to look on it more as a placebo effect. The more you want to hear the difference, the more you will.
It's all too easy to get caught up in audiophile stuff, and then you're left not listening to the music anymore, but the quality of the sound from your system, which is ironic really beacause you bought the system in the first place to listen to music.
IMHO a lot of audiophiles I have met very rarely truely enjoy the music they are listening too anymore because they have got so obsessed with the equipment that they may as well just listen to demo discs to get their kicks.
I think that's all true, people who honestly think they can hear the difference betwene a £2 cable and a £10 one are mental.
Bi-wiring is completely different though, electrically and sonically.
Keiron99
09-07-2007, 10:32
However, that has nothing to do with bi-wiring which is the proper separation of frequencies at source, which can be detected quite easily in my experience.
No - biwiring as the OP is considering will carry exactly the same signal down both lengths of wire, unless I'm mistaken. It's not until you get to the crossover that the frequencies are split. I believe you'd have to have an active crossover set up to actually split the frequencies before the amplification stage to achieve what you are talking about.
So given that there is no electrical difference whatsoever, I don't see how any difference can be heard. Again, as with other cabling, I've never seen (or personally heard) any evidence from controlled listening tests that biwiring makes an audible difference.
Lambchop
09-07-2007, 10:35
lol ... okay you've confirmed for me that bi-wiring from a single output amp is just silly. But I am effectively bi-amping, because my sony str-930db (i think that's it, off the top of my head?) has two sets of speaker outputs which I've been using to date! I think I'll just have to wait til I get the carpets up and assess how difficult/easy the job is! :) To be fair, it would be handy not to have to buy any more speaker cable, whatever happens!
Thanks for all the opinions!
Keiron99
09-07-2007, 10:50
lol ... okay you've confirmed for me that bi-wiring from a single output amp is just silly. But I am effectively bi-amping, because my sony str-930db (i think that's it, off the top of my head?) has two sets of speaker outputs which I've been using to date!
Sorry to be a pedant (actually, I enjoy being a pedant :) but I do believe that is still merely biwiring. It's two wires running from the same single amp. Unless of course it's an amp with 4 channels or more, and you are using the rear channels to power the second set of terminals on your front speakers.
No - biwiring as the OP is considering will carry exactly the same signal down both lengths of wire, unless I'm mistaken. It's not until you get to the crossover that the frequencies are split. I believe you'd have to have an active crossover set up to actually split the frequencies before the amplification stage to achieve what you are talking about.
So given that there is no electrical difference whatsoever, I don't see how any difference can be heard. Again, as with other cabling, I've never seen (or personally heard) any evidence from controlled listening tests that biwiring makes an audible difference.
Ah my bad :D I had missed the point about this being from a single channel, I was of course talking from the perspective of a 4-channel amp, which is why I was so adamant you can hear a difference.
lol, I could start a fight in an empty house me :D
I totally agree that on a 2-channel amp there is no point in bi-wiring as you're simply delivering the same signal to two separate inputs, of course there's no way you could hear that :D
Sorry to be a pedant (actually, I enjoy being a pedant :) but I do believe that is still merely biwiring. It's two wires running from the same single amp. Unless of course it's an amp with 4 channels or more, and you are using the rear channels to power the second set of terminals on your front speakers.
That's correct, your summary there is what i was describing earlier... lambchop, the amount of speaker inputs isn't the key here, it the amp outputs that matter most from a signal splitting perspective, the speakers won't do that for you.
IMHO a lot of audiophiles I have met very rarely truely enjoy the music they are listening too anymore because they have got so obsessed with the equipment that they may as well just listen to demo discs to get their kicks.
Exactly, I knew a guy who previously had £20,000 worth of hifi then one day decided it wasn't worth that to him. So he pared it down to a £1000 setup and he said it was sonically as good. I actually bought the same kit off him.
What - 2 or 3 inches of speaker cabling sounded different to the same length of solid metal?
What about the wires inside the speakers? Maybe you should replace them too!
Maybe it was the design of the plates, but there is a much better contact using wires than the bridging plates and the sound quality did open up slightly afterwards.
It makes perfect sense to me - can a 1/2 mm thick piece of cheap metal carry an electrical signal better than a purpose designed cable - I would say not!
The wires inside the speakers will be soldered and so will have a better contact anyway, so I am not too worried about that at this level.
Lambchop
11-07-2007, 21:38
That's correct, your summary there is what i was describing earlier... lambchop, the amount of speaker inputs isn't the key here, it the amp outputs that matter most from a signal splitting perspective, the speakers won't do that for you.
My amp has two sets of independent (as far as I know) stereo channels, so for example, you can have a stereo pair of speakers in one room, and stereo pair of speakers in another room playing the same thing. On the front of the amp, I can then switch between speaker set A, speaker set B, or speaker set A + B being in operation at any time (or speakers off!!). I presume this means I effectively have two amps within the one unit, so bi-amping becomes possible. Whether its worthwhile me doing this is another question...to be honest I don't think I'll bother, but thanks for the help :thumbs:
Keiron99
12-07-2007, 07:28
My amp has two sets of independent (as far as I know) stereo channels, so for example, you can have a stereo pair of speakers in one room, and stereo pair of speakers in another room playing the same thing. On the front of the amp, I can then switch between speaker set A, speaker set B, or speaker set A + B being in operation at any time (or speakers off!!). I presume this means I effectively have two amps within the one unit, so bi-amping becomes possible. Whether its worthwhile me doing this is another question...to be honest I don't think I'll bother, but thanks for the help :thumbs:
If you can only listen to the same thing on A and B speakers (ie, you can't listen to CD on one set and Tape on another at the same time), then it's just a straightforward stereo amp with 2 outputs. It's just two sets of wires running from each of the left and right channels. The A/B switch comes after the amplification and before the output terminals at the back.
You don't have two amps in one unit, and bi amping isn't possible (sorry to bring the bad news!) ....just bi-wiring....and I've already given my opinion on that!
My amp has two sets of independent (as far as I know) stereo channels, so for example, you can have a stereo pair of speakers in one room, and stereo pair of speakers in another room playing the same thing. On the front of the amp, I can then switch between speaker set A, speaker set B, or speaker set A + B being in operation at any time (or speakers off!!). I presume this means I effectively have two amps within the one unit, so bi-amping becomes possible. Whether its worthwhile me doing this is another question...to be honest I don't think I'll bother, but thanks for the help :thumbs:
As keiron says, this would still be bi-wiring, although depending on what speakers you have you may still get a better effect. Some speakers have low pass filters on one set of inputs, which cut out high frequencies when the gold terminal jumper is removed from the back (like the B&W's I had).
What this does is allow low frequency sound through one set of terminal, and higher frequencies through the other. I could hear a difference in that configuration, it wasn't life changin, but the sound was a little less muddy.
I don't want to give you the impression I'm a crazy audiophile, having studied Electronic Engineering I know that most of it is bunkum, but I do know what works and will only use what I consider to make an actual difference.
Lambchop
12-07-2007, 10:43
okay cool, thanks for the help there!! I didn't realise my amp would still be a single amp with two outputs, so that's very useful info. Seems daft to try to bi-wire/bi-amp when all its going to do is make installation more troublesome! I can understand why some speakers may have a dedicated filter circuit to improve the sound on an almost 'theoretical' level, but given that I don't have a dedicated audio room and that I havn't spent a huge amount on audio equipment, I hardly think that's worth it for me! Now the subject comes up, I vaguely remember someone trying to push to me the idea of separate, indpendent corss-over units to filter and separate out the high/low frequencies for different speakers - I'm not sure if this was a high power PA related set-up, but it would seem a bit OTT for hi-fi!!
thanks again :)
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