View Full Version : Do I need a Sub?
My question is a simple one (I hope), I am contemplating adding a sub to my setup, but would like to know how important or what difference adding one will make.
My current setup is as follows:
Sony 535 DVD
Yamaha 620 Amp
Tannoy MXAV4 Speakers
I'm perfectly happy with what I have, but have never listened to a setup with a sub.
So Should I get out my credit card and get one ???
Thanks
homerjhandley
05-01-2002, 22:49
yup.
it is not a major difference but when you get one you will see what you missed out on!
esp at lower volumes, the bass is more prominent (so imagine it at higher!!)
Radiohead
05-01-2002, 22:55
Originally posted by JulesH
My question is a simple one (I hope), I am contemplating adding a sub to my setup, but would like to know how important or what difference adding one will make.
My current setup is as follows:
Sony 535 DVD
Yamaha 620 Amp
Tannoy MXAV4 Speakers
I'm perfectly happy with what I have, but have never listened to a setup with a sub.
So Should I get out my credit card and get one ???
Thanks
Jules - any "proper" 5.1 speaker set-up should include a sub to hear the full benefit of the LFE (ie. the .1 element). Indeed, with a film such as Jurassic Park 2 you won't hear much bass in a TV version as they had to leave out the .1 channel from that version.
Having said that, your MX4's aren't exactly bass-shy, and it'll depend to an extent on how large your room is and whether you share a party-wall with a neighbour. I'm in a semi, and don't run a sub for those very reasons - I don;t listen at high volumes and the room isn't massive, so a sub and bags of bass sounded lousy - I'm not a huge bass-head either. Mrs Radiohead wasn't that keen on a massive black box in the corner anyway and I don't really miss it. I'd consider getting another, but it would have to be a good un like an REL for me to take the plunge and it wouldn't be in this house.
So - if you've got the cash and circumstances then go for it, otherwise don't lose too much sleep.
Sheepking
05-01-2002, 23:12
yes. Any system should benefit from a properly setup sub.
Radiohead
05-01-2002, 23:30
Originally posted by Sheepking
yes. Any system should benefit from a properly setup sub.
Yes - the system might well do, whether the listening environment will is another matter entirely though......
Originally posted by Radiohead
Yes - the system might well do, whether the listening environment will is another matter entirely though......
Mmmm not sure my house and lounge are that ideal then for a sub. The walls are thin and the neighbours have made comments on the sound levels :rolleyes:
Radiohead
05-01-2002, 23:36
Originally posted by JulesH
Mmmm not sure my house and lounge are that ideal then for a sub. The walls a thin and the neighbours have made comments on the sound levels :rolleyes:
Bass is the thing that winds people up as it travels. I'd stick with your mX4's and spend the money on CD's and DVD's instead. I doubt you'd see the benefit of a sub in your environment.
I assume you've got the Tannoy's set to "large" though.....just in case you haven't.
Originally posted by Radiohead
Bass is the thing that winds people up as it travels. I'd stick with your mX4's and spend the money on CD's and DVD's instead. I doubt you'd see the benefit of a sub in your environment.
I assume you've got the Tannoy's set to "large" though.....just in case you haven't.
Cheers for the advice.
What do you mean exactly by 'Large' ???
Its asetting in your amp and it determines how much bass is output through the speaker. If its set to small i think all the bass is left to the Sub?
Radiohead
05-01-2002, 23:43
Originally posted by JulesH
Cheers for the advice.
What do you mean exactly by 'Large' ???
I have a Yamaha A5 amp (the one before yours) - in the set-up menu you have the option of setting the main (ie. front), centre and rears to large or small. If you set the front to small the amp will attempt to send bass to a sub (which you don't have). What centre do you have? Your mX4's should be set to "large" to have bass sent to them in the absence of a sub (although dedicated LFE signals won't be reproduced)
Radiohead what are lfe signals I see tem onmy sony amp and i know they go through the bass but whats the diff between these and ordinary bass?
Radiohead
05-01-2002, 23:55
Originally posted by gram99
Radiohead what are lfe signals I see tem onmy sony amp and i know they go through the bass but whats the diff between these and ordinary bass?
LFE = Low Frequency Effects
The LFE channel delivers bass-only effects below 120Hz. But, it doesn't correspond directly with a sub output. It's possible for a soundtrack to contain an LFE channel, but a decoder (ie. your Sony) may provide no sub output because all the bass information, including the LFE channel, can be handled by your main speakers. That's why it's so important to set-up the sub so it only takes bass signals as the main speakers begin to roll-off at the bottom of their dynamic range - eg. if the mains run down to, say, 75Hz, then the sub should take over at that point.
The difference between the LFE channel and sub output is that the LFE channel is used to carry additional bass information in a soundtrack, whilst the sub determines how some or all of the bass will be reproduced....
:)
Originally posted by Radiohead
LFE = Low Frequency Effects
The LFE channel delivers bass-only effects below 120Hz. But, it doesn't correspond directly with a sub output. It's possible for a soundtrack to contain an LFE channel, but a decoder (ie. your Sony) may provide no sub output because all the bass information, including the LFE channel, can be handled by your main speakers. That's why it's so important to set-up the sub so it only takes bass signals as the main speakers begin to roll-off at the bottom of their dynamic range - eg. if the mains run down to, say, 75Hz, then the sub should take over at that point.
The difference between the LFE channel and sub output is that the LFE channel is used to carry additional bass information in a soundtrack, whilst the sub determines how some or all of the bass will be reproduced....
:)
so how do i set up my sub so it only takes bass signals?
Radiohead
06-01-2002, 00:05
Originally posted by gram99
so how do i set up my sub so it only takes bass signals?
Assuming you're using the mXC, what fronts and rears are you using?....
mission 700 fronts and tannoy mxr rears m8.
Radiohead
06-01-2002, 08:43
Originally posted by gram99
mission 700 fronts and tannoy mxr rears m8.
I used to set the mXC to large but I don't have a sub - I'd set all yours to "small" and let the sub deal with bass and LFE duties.
Ok m8 cheers. i take it the best option would be to get Tannoy fronta and replce the missions? Am I gonnae notice a big diff doing that?
Radiohead
06-01-2002, 09:45
Originally posted by gram99
Ok m8 cheers. i take it the best option would be to get Tannoy fronta and replce the missions? Am I gonnae notice a big diff doing that?
That's a trickier one.
The equivalent stand-mounts for your mXC would be the mX2's - arguably a better speaker than the 700's, but I doubt there's much in it to be honest - almost certainly not a big difference. If you use the 700's for stereo and are happy with them, and feel that they integrate well with the mXC then stick with them. Otherwise see if a local dealer will let you demo the mX2's at home. The Tannoy's are likely to be more laid-back and warm than the 700's. Again, if your room is a decent size, the mX3 floorstanders might be worth a look. Both can be had for very reasonable prices new.
Horses for courses really - the accepted wisdom is to use the same series across the front, but, in another thread in the Classified's forum, Just is running Mission fronts with an mXC and is very happy with them.
Listen to them at home if you can and then decide.
Originally posted by Radiohead
I have a Yamaha A5 amp (the one before yours) - in the set-up menu you have the option of setting the main (ie. front), centre and rears to large or small. If you set the front to small the amp will attempt to send bass to a sub (which you don't have). What centre do you have? Your mX4's should be set to "large" to have bass sent to them in the absence of a sub (although dedicated LFE signals won't be reproduced)
Well, not 100% on whether a Yamaha does this, but my Sony certainly doesn't.
If you select SUBWOOFER=NO, this activates the bass redirection circuitry and the dedicated LFE (the .1) channel is redirected to the main fronts.
AFAIK, this is a standard feature of Dolby Digital decoders, so any amp sporting such a device should behave in the same way.
Obviously, there is little point in setting the main fronts as small (and so forcing all speakers to small) if you don't have a subwoofer.In that case, I'm not sure whether it will simply cut the bass altogether (as it has nowhere to redirect it to), or simply ignore the setting and operate as if the fronts were set to LARGE. I suspect the former though.
That's why it's so important to set-up the sub so it only takes bass signals as the main speakers begin to roll-off at the bottom of their dynamic range - eg. if the mains run down to, say, 75Hz, then the sub should take over at that point.
This is only partly true.
First, for Dolby Digital, it's important to understand exactly what sub output means, and exactly what LFE means.
LFE is the dedicated low frequency effect channel - if SUB=YES, then this will be sent to the subwoofer. If SUB=NO, then it will be sent to the main fronts.
Sub output is the bass which has been cut from other channels. If all speakers are set to LARGE, then no bass is cut, so there is no sub output.
If all speakers are set to SMALL, then the amp will cut bass below 120Hz from all channels, ans send this to the subwoofer.
To set a system to only output the LFE channel, set SUB=YES, and all speakers to LARGE.
The crosover setting on the sub should be either bypassed (some upmarket subs have this feature)
or turned to maximum - the amp is only sending frequencies below 120Hz, as that's all that's in the LFE channel.
To set a system to output both LFE and sub output to the subwoofer, set all speakers to SMALL and SUB=YES. Again, the sub's crossover should be either bypassed or set to maximum, as the amp has already done the bass filtering for you (the LFE channel is 20-120Hz, and the amp only cuts bass below 120Hz from the other channels).
To set a system up if you have no subwoofer, obviously set SUB=NO, and at least the main fronts to LARGE. That will set the LFE channel to be sent to the main fronts, as well as the all the bass originally in the two main front channels.
What you set the centre and rears to is a metter of choice and capability of the speakers in question. Set them for LARGE, and they will handle the full signal intended for them. Set them for SMALL, and the amp will redirect their bass below 120Hz to the main fronts.
If setting the fronts to LARGE, causes them to get distorted, as they can't handle the LFE channel's full range, then reduce the LFE output level on the amp.
That's Dolby Digital (and DTS).
The issue of crossover frequency on the sub, really comes into play for analogue signals, such as music or prologic from a VCR or STB.
There is no LFE channel, so that's not an issue.
However, the same signal is presented to both the main speakers, and the subwoofer. You then have to set the sub's crossover, so that it rolls on just as the main speakers roll off, otherwise ther will be a point (probably between 50-120Hz) where both speakers and sub are outputting the same signal.
As this is upper bass, it makes the sound horribly boomy.
Some upmarket subs have a switch for theatre or music mode - essentially this simply puts the crossover in for music, and removes it (or bypasses it) completely for home theatre use.
Of course, this is all theory, and the quality f the amp, and it's DD/DTS decoders, as well as the quality of the sub will all affect the final sound, as will the room itself.
That's where experimentation comes in.
Radiohead
06-01-2002, 11:47
MikeK
I'm clear on the differences between LFE and sub outputs, hence my answer relating to this earlier in the thread.
The Yamaha A5 is different to your Sony in that it doesn't ask you for sub = yes or no. You have the options for "Bass Out" of SW/Main/Both.
SW and Both = only if system includes a sub - in either of these positions LFE and bass below 90Hz on the centre and rear channels are sent to the sub output if centre is "small" or "none" and rears are "small". If SW is selected only then LFE and bass is sent to the sub if main speakers are "small". In the "Both" position bass and LFE are sent to the mains and sub output.
Main - select where no sub is present. This is obviously the "no" option on your Sony.
As gram99 is running 700's, MXC, MXR my advice is to set front, centre and rear to small and divert bass duties to the sub. Would you disagree with this?
Originally posted by Radiohead
SW and Both = only if system includes a sub - in either of these positions LFE and bass below 90Hz on the centre and rear channels are sent to the sub output if centre is "small" or "none" and rears are "small". If SW is selected only then LFE and bass is sent to the sub if main speakers are "small". In the "Both" position bass and LFE are sent to the mains and sub output.
Main - select where no sub is present. This is obviously the "no" option on your Sony.
Checked my DSP-AX620 and it was set to 'Large' for the speakers. Bass was set to 'Both' so I changed this to 'Main'.
Cheers Radiohead :)
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