TV as Cinema, or better....

[Scruffy the Janitor]

Mooching around the web (as I do) over tha past few months I have becoming increasingly intrigued with the repeated expression that people making TV series are making 'mini-movies' every week.

With some series this is obvious - for instance Band of Brothers makes Saving private Ryan look like fisher price 'my first war movie' but given the fact this was a mini series of 10 episodes made over 2 years and not part of an 'ongoing' series (20 odd episodes EVERY year) it's easy to see how they could do this.

So it got me to thinking what real examples are there of TV doing a BETTER job of things attempted in movies. More from a visual or story point of view that a character perspective. A series gets 18 is hours a season to establish character, a movie 2 hours so it is an unfair comparison.

Anyway, recently I have been rewatching the X-Files from season one onwards and thinking about this I remembered something that I bought the series boxset to confirm what I remenbered and I was blown away.

The example is the long single take steadycam shot. Now IMHO the king of this shot is the club entrance in Goodfellas, for all of the films other flaws this sequence is magic. However the X-files episode 'Triangle' runs it damn close and certainly far and away outstrips the single take 20 minute opening of the risible 'Snake-eyes' (which IIRC was actually two shots stiched together by computer).

The scene follows Gillian Anderson as she frantically runs around the FBI offices trying to get help in finding David Duchovny's Mulder. An awesome shot - made even more impressive by the fact that that her frequent trips to/in the elevator were used to trigger complete set changes around her. There is also an excellent split screen long steadycan take (or two of) later in the episode. To me a true example of TV being as good as cinema.

Any others you guys can think of?

[corkbouy]

The West Wing has loads of long continuous shots in which the characters weave in and out of the corridors and offices of the White House, with John Spencer's one in the Pilot being the best, I think.

[Royle]

Ignoring David Caruso for the moment ( :lol: ), CSI Miami has some stunning shots in it nearly every episode. I know they go to town with the tinted lens etc but even so, they still manage to pull off some very nice angles and lighting effects.

[LeftHandedGuitarist]

ER has made incredibly good use of steadi-cam over the years, and from a storytelling perspective has done some stuff that is difficult to match.

Most HBO shows, such as Deadwood, have a production quality higher than you see in a lot of films these days. And then there's the new Battlestar Galactica which makes for some of the most intense and gripping storylines I've ever seen, and very inventive use of documentary-style camera, even within it's CG shots.

Interesting you should bring this discussion up, as I recently asked my Film Studies class tutor if we could study any TV shows rather than film, since I believe the quality of TV these days matches (if not exceeds) film.

[thescrounger]

Deadwood is the only thing I can think of. Most other series, just do a very good job of stringing the audience along for 26 episodes a season. Look at Lost. Well acted, great atmosphere, well directed and well scripted. But it's really just a load of Tosh. The only real advantage TV has over film is that it allows you to go deeper into the characters than a one off 2 hour film does.

[Citysmith]

Deadwood is the only thing I can think of. Most other series, just do a very good job of stringing the audience along for 26 episodes a season. Look at Lost. Well acted, great atmosphere, well directed and well scripted. But it's really just a load of Tosh. The only real advantage TV has over film is that it allows you to go deeper into the characters than a one off 2 hour film does.

No Way :nuts:

Sopranos, Rescue Me, Wire to name but a few, I don't feel like I'm getting "Strung Along" with any of them 3. They are TV at it's finest and knock the spots off most films :thumbs:

[thescrounger]

No Way :nuts:

Sopranos, Rescue Me, Wire to name but a few.

Character driven drama though. May as well be higher class soaps.

[Harsin]

That is possibly the most idiotic post I've read on these forums yet. Congratulations, because believe me the bar was already pretty high.

[KRW]

I see things like The Shield, BSG and The Sopranos as pure soap opera, sorry if it goes against accepted wisdom. :lol: I still love them to death, but, its still soap even if very well written and acted. I'm not entirely sure what the difference is....perhaps its the 'cliffhanger' concept that makes you 'tune in next week', and some of the storylines wouldn't look out of place in Eastenders (Vic Mackey and his ever complicated marriage, for example).

I'd leave The Wire of the soap list, though, as I thought that was a completely different thing and a real attempt to do something different with the 'series' format.

[Citysmith]

Character driven drama though. May as well be higher class soaps.
:brickwall :brickwall Words Fails Me!!!

[thescrounger]

:brickwall :brickwall Words Fails Me!!!

Drama is drama. :shrug: As I pointed out the only difference is how well it's done. Sorry if that's shattered your illusions of what good TV is.

I didn't say any of those shows were rubbish, I agree they are the best TV has to offer. But at the end of the day, they are just character driven drama.

No Way :nuts:

Sopranos, Rescue Me, Wire to name but a few, I don't feel like I'm getting "Strung Along" with any of them 3. They are TV at it's finest and knock the spots off most films :thumbs:

I agree, apart from Rescue Me, which is very enjoyable but not as good as the others. You can still easily dissect these things though. TV has restrictions in that it has to keep you watching by stretching out storylines perhaps beyond their natural life. Film doesn't have to do this.

[thescrounger]

That is possibly the most idiotic post I've read on these forums yet. Congratulations, because believe me the bar was already pretty high.


I know, you set the bar. :lol:

But seriously, I think you've misunderstood my point. Don't be so hasty to launch an attack on me. It lowers my opinion of you, if such a thing is possible.

[George vader]

Sopranos, Rescue Me (haven't seen the Wire yet)-high class soap.

:lol: x infinity

Can we throw in NYPD Blue and Hill Street Blues too?

:oh-hum: :oh-hum: :oh-hum:

[thescrounger]

Sopranos, Rescue Me (haven't seen the Wire yet)-high class soap.

:lol: x infinity




Don't kid yourself. ;)

http://www.dailylobo.com/media/storage/paper344/news/2006/04/26/Culture/sopranos.Becomes.Sappy.Soap.Opera-1878021.shtml?norewrite200609291516&sourcedomain=www.dailylobo.com

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=1776888&page=1

Plenty of these dramas have soap opera storylines. Sorry if that's hard to take for a big tough man like you.

[Lorne.t]

I hadn't noticed until I watched one of the interview shows online but 24 is always imaginative shot wise when showing shots of simple conversations.Lot's of shots through glass etc.
Look out for it and you'll see what i mean.

[Herbal]

I've been watching the West Wing from Season 1 (up to season 5 atm). And some of the episodes are better than any film i have seen. If you call this 'soap acting' i think you need to watch diffrent shows.

Wonderful stuff.

[andybhoy]

Coronation street v 24. Both are "dramas, therefore 24 must be a "high class soap". (obviously Buffy and angel must also be teen soaps).

Personally, I find tv far more engaging than most movies.

[thescrounger]

If you call this 'soap acting' i think you need to watch diffrent shows.



Where did I ever say the acting in these things was 'soap acting'? The acting is largely first class. I pointed out that all these TV dramas with ongoing stories and arcs had essentially to a degree (and I'm not the only person to regognise this) used soap conventions in one form or another. Some of the plotlines have on occasions got very silly. Look at season 1 of 24 when his wife got amnesia for about 5 episodes. Rescue Me is esstentially the ultimate soap opera for blokes, as one reviewer put it.

[Herbal]

Sorry 'higher class soaps'.

Yes as good as 24 is you really need no brain to watch it. The same goes for Prison Break.

[thescrounger]

Yes as good as 24 is you really need no brain to watch it.



Well indeed. If you did it wouldn't be half as fun.

But again, I don't think you've quite got what i was getting at, and everybody seems to be going into overdrive defending their favourite TV show, so let's just forget about it.

[KRW]

I've been watching the West Wing from Season 1 (up to season 5 atm). And some of the episodes are better than any film i have seen. If you call this 'soap acting' i think you need to watch diffrent shows.

Wonderful stuff.

By coincidence, so am I, on episode 4 as I write, and its wonderful and its pure lathery, glossy soap. Sure, the acting, writing and direction is top notch, but its soap, nonetheless. Its nothing to do with the 'soap acting', its the episodic content and its occasional reliance on cliche and cliffhanger to keep the audience watching.

Some of 24's plot lines are straight from Neighbours - the 'memory loss' being a notable feature of both shows. ;)

As far as film vs TV goes, I dont think I've seen more than 5 films that came out this year, probably less. TV is far better at the moment.

[thescrounger]

By coincidence, so am I, on episode 4 as I write, and its wonderful and its pure lathery, glossy soap. Sure, the acting, writing and direction is top notch, but its soap, nonetheless. Its nothing to do with the 'soap acting', its the episodic content and its occasional reliance on cliche and cliffhanger to keep the audience watching.

Some of 24's plot lines are straight from Neighbours - the 'memory loss' being a notable feature of both shows. ;)



Thanks for posting. This is exactly what I was talking about, and I wasn't suggesting that 'soap' it was a bad thing either, as it's very entertaining as you also say.

[Harsin]

Some of 24's plot lines are straight from Neighbours - the 'memory loss' being a notable feature of both shows. ;)

See there's nothing wrong with accusing specific programmes with being a bit soapy. I'd certainly agree with you on 24 with storylines like "CTU Boss Mental Teenage Daughter" and "OMG Who's Baby Is That?". But to blanket anything that falls under the umbrella of "character driven drama" as higher class soaps is frankly laughable. Especially touting The Wire as an example. :nuts:

Also does the 'soap' classification only apply to serialised fiction as if not then most of the greatest films ever made and novels ever written can also be dismissed as a posher Crossroads.

[Deano]

I agree they are the best TV has to offer. But at the end of the day, they are just character driven drama.


"Just character driven drama"?

As oppossed to what exactly? Character driven dramas are at thier core a study of the human condition and as such some of the most valid and important stuff out there. I really don't get how you can dismiss them in such a way. Sure, soap operas like Eastenders are bad examples of character driven drama but to dimiss the entire genre as inferior to... well inferior to what exactly? Plot driven drama? I'm not sure what's left to classify as that. You've already stuck 24 in the Character driven box because of some poor storylines and that's by far the most plot driven thing on the TV.

Really, what examples are there in film, TV, Theatre or literature of none character-driven drama that you find so superior to the sort of shows mentioned here?

[George vader]

Sorry if that's hard to take for a big tough man like you.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/Georgevader04/forums/winner22ob1.jpg

[thescrounger]

See there's nothing wrong with accusing specific programmes with being a bit soapy. I'd certainly agree with you on 24 with storylines like "CTU Boss Mental Teenage Daughter" and "OMG Who's Baby Is That?". But to blanket anything that falls under the umbrella of "character driven drama" as higher class soaps is frankly laughable.


Well I haven't watched The Wire, my intitial response was generally about the Sopranos and Rescue me which are about people and their lives.

There's a specific difference between something that is a soap and a drama. A drama is something that is resolved quite quickly, like the duration of a film or a play, and is focused on an event or a story primarily, a soap is something that has a seemingly unending narrative about peoples lives and relationships and the plot is often informed by these things. There's a line between the two somewhere, but there's a reason we are drawn into these shows week after week and it's the soapy hooks that do it.

Good cinema at it's best is more of an artform in this sense.

[Deano]

Good cinema at it's best is more of an artform in this sense.

I'd have to disagree with that. A full and accurate adaptation of a lengthy book is far more suited to a 20-part mini series than a single film. A film is the screen corollory to a short story, and no-one ever tries to claim short stories are more of an artform than novels.

Admitedly there are some shows which just stretch themselves out and make things up as they go along, and there's a definate arguement for how this is less artistic than something with a strongly plotted beginning, middle and end. But a show like B5, Deadwood, The Wire or Murder One that plan there story at the start so it lasts a given amount of episodes and series do not fall into this catagory. Nor necessarily do shows that tell a selection of individual stories with the same characters.

[thescrounger]

But a show like B5, Deadwood, The Wire or Murder One that plan there story at the start so it lasts a given amount of episodes and series do not fall into this catagory. Nor necessarily do shows that tell a selection of individual stories with the same characters.

Well I agree there. I said in my first post that Deadwood was the first thing that sprang to mind as doing something equally good as or better than film. Not to mention it's done something new with the western genre. B5 also had a firm storyline in place and plotted from the start.