View Full Version : [F1] The Monaco Grand Prix 25th - 28th May 2006
Panavision
22-05-2006, 14:54
Live qualifying: Saturday 27 May 1230-1425 ITV1
Live race: Sunday 28 May 1200-1520 ITV1
Highlights: Sunday 28 May 2350-0055 ITV1
Highlights: Tuesday 30 May 0355-0450 ITV4
Qualifying will be fun! :thumbs:
22 cars on track trying to record a decent lap time within 15minutes: with the backmarkers trying to do as many laps as possible in the hope of pulling out a 'miracle' lap time from somewhere. "Fun" hardly does it justice :D
Itll probably come down to who dares to go lightest out of the front runners. With a little luck we will see more than just Renault & Ferrari being competitive this weekend, it'd be nice to see McLaren or Williams up there. (anyone other than Honda really: we really dont need any more ITV Jenson-love sessions!)
Thread title seems a little odd: Monaco weekend runs from 25th-28th (Thurs-Sun), not 27th-29th but its hardly important.
SeanValen
24-05-2006, 20:30
Quali will be great.
Panavision
25-05-2006, 09:42
Two practice sessions today.
PTBurkis
25-05-2006, 16:57
Lol. Kimi's car caught fire during the first practice session and the marshalls were hesitant to put it out, so he jumped out, grabbed the extinguisher off them and put it out himself! Pretty funny.
If I was still doing my old job, I'd be out there now, and going to the SAP boat in the habour tonight for a party. Grrrrrrrr :cry:
hunts1uk
27-05-2006, 12:16
How good is qualifying?If only the races where this exciting.
Unlucky Massa. :nono:
hunts1uk
27-05-2006, 12:35
MS called into the weight bridge during qualifing,haven't seen that before. :?:
Buttons struggling. :clap:
Hmm, I've got pole, I'll think I'll park my car on the race track and mess up everyone else's time :suspect:
Hmm, I've got pole, I'll think I'll park my car on the race track and mess up everyone else's time :suspect:
Usual tactic from Schumacher, when he knows he's not the fastest :(
IMO he has to be put back to 10th.
Usual tactic from Schumacher, when he knows he's not the fastest :(
IMO he has to be put back to 10th.
I say put him right at the back (22nd), along with his buddy Felipe Massa :thumbs:
hunts1uk
27-05-2006, 13:21
With any luck Ferrari will get hammered for this,can't believe what i i've seen to tell the truth,MS looked so smug in the interview. :thinking:
basegreen
27-05-2006, 13:23
That was shameless. Always hated the cheating *******.
Typical cheating Schumacher.
But its Schumacher in a Ferrari, the chances of anything being done about it are almost 0 even if it is so blatant.
Otherwise a good session, Williams could be interesting tomorrow.
HAs to be almost impossible to prove it was done deliberately IMO and without 100% proof no action should be taken. If the proof exists then SChumacher should be black flagged for the event and hence not take part in the race. However, action should certainly not be taken just because all the other teams seem to bear a grudge against Ferrari for historical reasons.
Briatore acted like a dummy chucking toddler. A pathetic sight IMO.
Aardvark_DK
27-05-2006, 13:34
Hmm, I've got pole, I'll think I'll park my car on the race track and mess up everyone else's time
And risq having some other guy slam his car into mine and then having to start at the back of the grid in the T-car. Yep, I always do that.
I haven't seen the incident yet, so can't judge if it was deliberate or not, but a few weeks ago this happened:
The Formula One stewards ruled in a statement that Villeneuve had committed an offence by impeding Fisichella but accepted that it may not have been deliberate.
They ordered that Villeneuve should lose his best three laps in the final 10-driver sessionSo, irrespective of whether it was deliberate, the same should happen to Schumacher. Anything less would be double standards.
HAs to be almost impossible to prove it was done deliberatelyWatch the incar replay, paying attention to the steering and how the car responds. The sight of our cheating little friend positioning his car perfectly is more than enough evidence to convict.
Thing is, when he was talking at the press conference he said "It was at Rascasse I think it's called", he's raced there enough times, won there enough and it's the most famous race circuit in the world, I think he'd know the name. Bad sport imo.
Ah just set Gmail to English (US) in Settings and I have a little web headline thing at the top, I'll check later to see if that resolves the "On behalf of" issue.
Hmmmm. I think it is pretty damning if the other teams (not just Renault) were calling foul straight away.
Looked to me that he genuinly made the mistake, it was the lack of effort to rectify it that was suspect.
The in-car replay shows he 100% meant to park it, he straightens the wheels a second time to ensure he goes towards the barrier, when the car would have made it around no problem had he kept full lock on.
Aardvark_DK
27-05-2006, 15:52
The in-car replay shows he 100% meant to park it, he straightens the wheels a second time to ensure he goes towards the barrier, when the car would have made it around no problem had he kept full lock on.
Having just watched that in-car replay a couple of times, I'm afraid that I have to agree. Definitely a no-no and he should be penalised for it.
edit: I hate having to admit that I was wrong.
rbullivant
27-05-2006, 16:25
I don't think a driver of MS calibre should be making such mistakes, its a shame that such a quality driver cheats so much. He literally just parked on the track to make sure yellows were waved while others were on a hot lap.
Kicked out the race IMO, he gets away with far too much
Rik
According to eurosport.com, he's staying there.
http://www.eurosport.com/formula1/monaco-gp/2006/sport_sto893189.shtml
However, race stewards later denied any wrongdoing on Schumacher's behalf, rendering the German's 67th career pole as official.I just can't see any consistency in the decisions. Villeneuve was punished for impeding Fisichella, despite the stewards saying it wasn't proven to be deliberate - so why isn't Schumacher penalised? :?:
Greemie666
27-05-2006, 16:33
Not deliberate in my opinion, he got on the marbles whilst trying to improve his time on tyres that were going off.
Just part of racing.
Blatantly on-purpose.
Cars can swing around rascasse at about 50mph, he was barely doing 30 when he had his "moment".
Michael always has and always will drive dirty.
hunts1uk
27-05-2006, 17:22
Fisichella punished for impeding Coulthard
Saturday, May 27th 2006, 16:54 GMT
Giancarlo Fisichella has been penalised by race stewards of the Monaco Grand Prix for blocking David Coulthard during qualifying on Saturday.
The Italian Renault driver will lose his three fastest laps from qualifying after stewards ruled Fisichella, who had qualified fifth, had impeded Red Bull driver Coulthard during one of his qualifying runs.
The stewards said Fisichella's actions may not have been deliberate, but penalised him nonetheless.
"He (Coulthard) looked as if he should have been able to qualify in the top five or six," Red Bull team boss Christian Horner told Reuters.
"Unfortunately he got blocked by Fisichella on his fast lap and that cost him a great deal of time."
Ferrari's Michael Schumacher, who took pole position, was also summoned by stewards after he stalled on the penultimate corner in the dying seconds of the final qualifying. The obstruction prevented rivals from bettering his time.
According to eurosport.com, he's staying there.
http://www.eurosport.com/formula1/monaco-gp/2006/sport_sto893189.shtml
I just can't see any consistency in the decisions. Villeneuve was punished for impeding Fisichella, despite the stewards saying it wasn't proven to be deliberate - so why isn't Schumacher penalised? :?:
I don't know if this is the exact rule/reason, but i think its written along the lines that whilst racing on the track drivers must be aware of those around them and merely saying you didn't see them behind you is not good enough, where as loss of car control removes 'fault' unless it is proved to be deliberate or an act of negligence that led to the loss of control initially. Something like that.
Unbelievable.
Any suggestion Coulthards Ferrari engine had anything to do with it is too much of a conspiracy theory even for me though :lol:
The stewards decision hasn't actually been announced yet according to Autosport et al.
GassyHaggis
27-05-2006, 19:53
I was well chuffed to see the Williams up there in third. Just a shame Nico didn't get in as good a lap time. Either that or they're on two completely different strategies.
Re the Schumacher incident. At the time I thought that it looked a little suspect. I immediately thought it must've been some sort of power loss but having straightened it up the old conspiracies started doing the rounds.
Regardless, it should be a good race. Looking for DC to give us a good showing and the Williams to get up there too.
According to eurosport.com, he's staying there.
eurosport misreport again. Hes lost pole.
BBC report that Schumi has been stripped of pole....
Michael Schumacher has been stripped of pole position for the Monaco Grand Prix and will have to start from the back of the grid in Sunday's race.
:eek:
sleep4ever
27-05-2006, 21:10
A ferrari back row
Blimey
GassyHaggis
27-05-2006, 21:13
They did say they wanted upside down grids.
Sorry, I'll get me coat.
Yep its official it seems. on F1racing.net now
The stewards of the Monaco Grand Prix have deleted all of Michael Schumacher's qualifying times, sending him to the back of the grid for Sunday's race. In a statement the stewards said that Schumacher had deliberately stopped his car on the track in the closing seconds of qualifying, preventing rivals from setting a faster time.
More to follow shortly.
Aardvark_DK
27-05-2006, 21:36
Michael always has and always will drive dirty.
Thank gods that he's the only one.
I really miss a guy like Senna who always raced fair.
Worryingly slow decision from the stewards (what about it wasnt clear from watching the live feed? The onboard replay should have cleared up any doubt for even the most loyal Schumacher fans) but all is right in the end.
Hopefully this wont mean Alonso just runs away at the front tomorrow: but if they get lucky with the traffic both Ferraris might be in contention later on.
redmosquito
27-05-2006, 22:13
Race aint going to be worth watching now.
Here's the stewards statement:
The stewards issued the following statement explaining their verdict:
“Having set a fast time in sector one, the driver lost time in sector two, arrived at turn 18 [Rascasse] at a speed little if any different from his previous fastest lap, and braked with such force that his front wheels locked up, requiring the driver to regain control of the car.
“The driver ultimately did so without hitting the barrier on the outside of turn 18.
“The engine of the car subsequently stalled, with the result that the car partially blocked the track.
“Having compared all relevant data, the stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit, and are therefore left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of qualifying, at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest lap time.
“The stewards accordingly directed that the qualifying times of Michael Schumacher be deleted.
“The effect of this is that he will start from the back of the grid.”
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=36078
Andrew70
27-05-2006, 22:23
What a berk. The man has undeniable talent yet time after time he pulls little stunts like this that will end up being his defining legacy in the memories of so many people who follow the sport.
NitramJohn
27-05-2006, 22:38
Looks like a boring race tomorrow then, Shame!
Thank gods that he's the only one.
I really miss a guy like Senna who always raced fair.
1990, Suzuka.
;)
Looks like a boring race tomorrow then, Shame!
No chance, there's going to be some fireworks at the back with both ferraris there, guess Schumi will be showing "how hard it is to overtake" there :)
Wow I thought he'd lose a fastest lap or two, but relegated to the back! Should make for a cracking race with both Ferraris up the rear and some cars at the front (Webber) that aren't likely to just run away with it.
If there are no safety cars though Alonso could well lap the field!
Bit rich of Briatore to complain about the incident. People harp on about Australia in 1994. Who was in charge of the Benetton team at the time I wonder?
Looks like a boring race tomorrow then, Shame!
Monaco, a boring race, how very dare you! Love all the scenery and razzmataz. But the race is usually boring.
Here are the highlights as if Schumi wasn't demoted.
Sprint for the lead from start.
Speculation as to who will pit first, Schumi or Alonso.
Somebody pits first.
Somebody pits second and comes out in front/behind.
Race fairly static until the end.
Other highlights: Coulthard or Villeneuve or Ralph smash into the barriers.
Somebody faster will be held up by somebody slower, but they are racing for position.
Mystic SPB
rbullivant
28-05-2006, 07:22
No chance, there's going to be some fireworks at the back with both ferraris there, guess Schumi will be showing "how hard it is to overtake" there :)
Schumacher has a hard enough time overtaking people at the best of times, I think he will plod along behind Massa at the back for most of the race.
Not sure if being at the back now means he can refuel as much as he likes or has to stick with what he had in the car for qualifying?
If he wanted to really do his cheating justice he should have at least hit the wall, damaged a nose cone.
Although I am a Kimi fan I hope Alonso can score some serious points here, lets hope that this race is what will lose Schumacher the championship, there is nothing worse than cheats in sport.
Rik
Greemie666
28-05-2006, 07:31
Shumachers accident happenned on the same corner and in the same way as Massa's.
Perhaps it's a Ferrari problem, I still don't think it was deliberate.
rbullivant
28-05-2006, 07:35
Whether it was deliberate or not it was far worse than what Fisi did to Coulthard, a lot of things in F1 are not deliberate and still get punished severely. When people crash into each other on track it is often not deliberate but they still get punished. Schumacher made a 'mistake' and spun off and in the process benefited over other drivers.
If a car accidentally cut a corner and made a place they are not allowed to keep the place, this is no different.
I think it was deliberate but even if it wasn't it still isn't fair on the other drivers for Schumacher to profit from his mistake.
Rik
Bit rich of Briatore to complain about the incident. People harp on about Australia in 1994. Who was in charge of the Benetton team at the time I wonder?
Hypocritical, maybe, but he probably knows more than any of the other team managers about Schumacher's mentality in such a situation and he has to do the best he can for his team, whatever the situation.
Briatore was absolutely convinced that it was deliberate. Clearly he knows what the driver is capable of and what the driver has done previously - I'd even say that this might shed further light on that incident 12 years ago!
Deliberate or not (and it looked deliberate to me), it certainly was enough to ruin the qualifying session. Even if it was just an error, from such an experienced driver it fully deserved a punishment.
Bapapapa
28-05-2006, 08:52
Thank gods that he's the only one.
I really miss a guy like Senna who always raced fair. :lol:
Vintage Schumacher. I don't think it was premeditated, I think he just gets into a kind of panic about being beaten. Its just the mentality that makes him such a great winner.
Unfortunately, he never has, and never will be, a great sportsman.
I was at the race in Austria where he crashed on the first bend. He tried his best to drive his damaged car out of the gravel and back onto the track knowing it would red-flag the race and he could start again in the spare car.
Flawed genius.
Aardvark_DK
28-05-2006, 09:38
As a fan of Schumacher I'd like to add that I think they should ban him for the next 2-3 races. Maybe that could teach him some manners. And the championship is decided anyway.
Panavision
28-05-2006, 10:22
His guilty face at the Press Conference was all the evidence the stewards needed.
Roughneck
28-05-2006, 10:35
As a fan of Schumacher I'd like to add that I think they should ban him for the next 2-3 races. Maybe that could teach him some manners. And the championship is decided anyway.
I am a huge Schumy fan but i think he should have been thrown out of this race... took 8hrs for the stewards to pour over the data from Ferrari and they have concluded it was done on purpose.
Smaller team may have been banned from this race or future ones, but when its the biggest team in F1 & one of the biggest name in the history of the sport things are different...
NitramJohn
28-05-2006, 11:15
Bit rich of Briatore to complain about the incident. People harp on about Australia in 1994. Who was in charge of the Benetton team at the time I wonder?
Flavio Briatore = the Worlds Biggest Hypocrite.
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 12:05
What a great move by Kimi to pass Webber.
What a great move by Kimi to pass Webber.
Webber mistake but good move still. C'mon Kimi. :clap:
Michael already behind Jenson and probably likely to stay there now until the pitstops.
Werdna007
28-05-2006, 12:14
Is it just my PC - or is the update of the lap times on formula1.com a bit slow this weekend compared to the TV images ?
Great passing by Kimi - now lets see him take Alonso
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 12:14
Can't believe the 2 midlands crashed into each other of the grid. :brickwall
FA v Kimi could be good. :)
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 12:25
Is Kimi on new tyres?As i know FA is on used.
Nice move by MS on Button,not a good weekend for Button.
JPM comes in hopefully kimi next.
Werdna007
28-05-2006, 12:43
Not sure about the Red Bull mechanic's Superman outfits :suspect: :lol:
Webber's driving well keeping up with the 2 leaders.
Edit: Looking at the times, it looks like FA has slowed right down
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 12:56
Some great driveing by fisi,bit late though
Some great driveing by fisi,bit late in his renault career though.
And should get a drive thru for his efforts on Webber anyway.
Werdna007
28-05-2006, 13:06
Webber didn't deserve that.
Damn - neither did Kimi
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 13:06
Safety cars out
Alonso out first. :notworthy
Terrible shame for Webber,
Safety Car is deployed, should bunch everything up and make things a bit more interesting :)
EDIT: OH NO, not Kimi too! that pretty much seals it for Alonso then...
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 13:10
Kimi's engines gone :clap:Got to be FA race now. :)
Kimi's engines gone :clap:Got to be FA race now. :)
Clap for Kimi's engine going? Thats not right, spoils the fun man!
I'm guessing your a Fernando fan? (not knocking you or anything)
Werdna007
28-05-2006, 13:25
Clap for Kimi's engine going? Thats not right, spoils the fun man!
I'm guessing your a Fernando fan? (not knocking you or anything)
I agree - but doesn't hunts1uk work for Renault (or am I thinking of another forum member?).
No excuse though - just a FA parade now, although MS is putting in some flying laps
Rubens on the podium. :(
Under investigation, maybe not. Yay. Oh, Trulli for the podium. :oh-hum:
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 13:29
Rubens on the podium. :(
Maybe not. :) Speeding in the pit lane :nono:
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 13:33
Clap for Kimi's engine going? Thats not right, spoils the fun man!
I'm guessing your a Fernando fan? (not knocking you or anything)
Telling me you wouldn't be happy if it ment another 400£ in your pocket? :cuckoo:
Would rather sit here relaxed then with my heart in my mouth. :doh:
Just hope he wins now. ;)
Telling me you wouldn't be happy if it ment another 400£ in your pocket? :cuckoo:
Would rather sit here relaxed then with my heart in my mouth. :doh:
Just hope he wins now. ;)
Well I didnt know you had a bet on him..... :cuckoo:
If you have said then fair play :thumbs:
Telling me you wouldn't be happy if it ment another 400£ in your pocket? :cuckoo: Of course people would be happy to earn a win bonus, but it doesn't seem really the right thing to do to visibly cheer the demise of a competitor.
Awww nuts now it's a DC podium.... it just gets worse for me! :lol:
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 13:40
Well I didnt know you had a bet on him..... :cuckoo:
If you have said then fair play :thumbs:
I work for Renault F1 m8,race win bonus. :) Hopefully
DC in 3rd maybe. :)
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 13:45
Of course people would be happy to earn a win bonus, but it doesn't seem really the right thing to do to visibly cheer the demise of a competitor.
Behave yourself,why shouldn't i?
Next you be telling me not to cheer when tottenham score :thumbs:
Red bulll racing have a great sense of humour tbh
Werdna007
28-05-2006, 13:53
As happy as I am for DC getting a 3rd place on his 200th GP - 1st podium for Red Bull, but just LOOSE THE CAPE MAN !!!!
As happy as I am for DC getting a 3rd place on his 200th GP - 1st podium for Red Bull, but just LOOSE THE CAPE MAN !!!!
Err I think it was DC's 200th GP in spain wasn't it?
Great result never the less.
Ahh that excellent Honda advert is on :)
Can't say the same for the performance of Jenson's car in Monaco though :lol:
Behave yourself,why shouldn't i?
Next you be telling me not to cheer when tottenham score :thumbs:A slightly better (although still inaccurate) football analogy would be cheering if an opposing player got a minor injury. Anyway, I'm perhaps being a bit unfair as I'm sure I've been guilty of cheering myself when people have gone out of races a few times, although I admit it's a bit unsporting.
Aardvark_DK
28-05-2006, 14:00
A shame that Schumacher managed to score points but at least he's pretty much out of contention for the championship. Hopefully he'll retire at the end of this season.
Ahhhh DC's taken the cape off in the Press Conference now :D
okay boys help me out here:
every year there is hype about the Monaco GP - why?
I'm not rich enough to sample the glitz and glamour; all i get is to see a convoy of fast cars line-astern - typified by 1-stop Rubinho holding up about 5 2-stoppers who don't even bother token-gesture overtaking attempts.
Not quite dull [for all the wrong reasons] but drab racing.
RE Shcumi: AT WORST he should have been demoted to P10 as it was the shoot-out that this happened in; Fischi only dropped 4 places for blocking [which is sort of what Michael is alleged to have done] and it only affected Alonso and Webber at best - Kimi said it had no impact on him.
At this has served to do is hand the Title to Alonso and rubber-stamp Michael's retirement as as fans we are the poorer for both.
How many people lining up to have a pop at Schumi did/do the same to Senna when he di the same sorts of things [even the "fake stall" IIRC]??
RE Shcumi: AT WORST he should have been demoted to P10 as it was the shoot-out that this happened in; Fischi only dropped 4 places for blocking [which is sort of what Michael is alleged to have done] and it only affected Alonso and Webber at best - Kimi said it had no impact on him.The difference is that Fisichella (and Villeneuve a few weeks ago also) wasn't deemed to have done the act deliberately. Schumacher was.
fine but this smacks of grand-standing by the Monaco stewards [as if this race needs any more media attention anyway!]....
There is a 3-stage qualifying and this happened in stage 3. Ignoring the huge can of worms now opened about intentions and driver-error, he should still have been starting from P10 and not in the pits IMO.
Aardvark_DK
28-05-2006, 14:52
The difference is that Fisichella (and Villeneuve a few weeks ago also) wasn't deemed to have done the act deliberately. Schumacher was.
And they didn't park their cars on the track.
Schumi would have been better crashing into the barrier I suppose? Then again, I'm sure he'd still be blamed for that too. Another win by the same old means for Alonso, i.e. mechanical failures by his competitors. I look forward to seeing Kimi kick his backside back to Spain next season when Alonso is in the McLaren. Another case of average driver in a good car is Alonso.
I was livid at the lack of blue flags for Webber after the first stop...the leaders were getting by, and I think Webber got held up for 2-3 laps at least behind fisi...lost about 8 seconds, just before his engine went. :(
fine but this smacks of grand-standing by the Monaco stewards [as if this race needs any more media attention anyway!]....
There is a 3-stage qualifying and this happened in stage 3. Ignoring the huge can of worms now opened about intentions and driver-error, he should still have been starting from P10 and not in the pits IMO.
There was almost unanimous agreement from all the parties interviewed on ITV before the race that this was the right decision - in fact some of them seemed to think he was lucky to even start the race. Now, maybe they were all wrong, or maybe ITV were selective with the interviews they used, but when former world champions such as Rosberg and Stewart speak out like this, you really have to think there was something to it.
hunts1uk
28-05-2006, 16:06
Schumi would have been better crashing into the barrier I suppose? Then again, I'm sure he'd still be blamed for that too. Another win by the same old means for Alonso, i.e. mechanical failures by his competitors. I look forward to seeing Kimi kick his backside back to Spain next season when Alonso is in the McLaren. Another case of average driver in a good car is Alonso.
Would be very intresting if Kimi ends up in a Renault. :)
I think there will be a few drivers kicking Alonso's backside next season when he is at McLaren and i doubt that Kimi will be there with him.
In my opinion button has a lot of potential, but whether Honda can give him a winning car remains uncertain,
Button should have honoured his contract with williams and at the end of this season could have been a free agent.
With seast possibly available at Ferrari, Renault, and Maclaren gone too any of these with a much better chance of winning and possibly a championship.
Button also never seems to be positive, as our nige says he went to races to win not finish second, button needs to do this be ruthless get that killer instinct, that both Alonso and Schumi have.
Well thats my opinion :thumbs:
Button will win a race at some point and he's certainly young enough to find himself in a championship winning car at some point but right now, I don't think he's in the Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen league. I know the Honda isn't always as good as the Ferrari, Renault & McLaren but he certainly seems to be the easiest leading driver to overtake.... for Michael especially.
I agree with the Alonso "average driver, good car" synopsis touted above. What's annoying is how Brundle has changed his tune from criticising his awful driving style (which hasn't changed) to being a complete fanboy. Alonso is one of the worst drivers I have actually seen in terms of style with the way he just aims at an an apex with no smoothness is his steering. He drives like someone playing a computer games of a digital joypad for god's sake! A change in car will find him out big style.
redmosquito
28-05-2006, 19:06
I'm not an Alonso fan, don't really like and am a bit of a Ferrari fanboy but I think people are being harsh on Alonso. Fisichella is what I would call an average driver and Alonso has proved he's far superior to him.
bubbachups
28-05-2006, 19:18
I agree with the Alonso "average driver, good car" synopsis touted above. What's annoying is how Brundle has changed his tune from criticising his awful driving style (which hasn't changed) to being a complete fanboy. Alonso is one of the worst drivers I have actually seen in terms of style with the way he just aims at an an apex with no smoothness is his steering. He drives like someone playing a computer games of a digital joypad for god's sake! A change in car will find him out big style.
You actually think the Renault is so fast that even the worst drivers can win races? Come on, please be a little bit smarter than that. Bad driving style will be reflected in bad lap times and more tyre wear. He's been the fastest guy out there almost every race and I don't recall him having more tyre problems than his team mate or any other Michelin driver on the grid. There are many different driving styles that all can be equally fast. To a novice his driving style might seem wild but in reality he's very efficient with his car's grip.
As for the race, too bad for Kimi and Webber. Apart from Webber's mistake in the first couple of laps they both have done an excellent job. Also good to see David on the podium again. Hopefully we can see a more entertaining race on Silverstone though. I hope it's not going to be an Alonso parade again, that's for sure.
The Bear
28-05-2006, 22:47
I didn't think there was too much wrong with what Schumacher did. Maybe he shouldn't have straightened the wheel up a second time, but then again no-one but Schumacher knows how the car felt or reacted at that time.
I seriously doubt he planned it, or could decide in that split second after he seemed to regain front grip, that he should park next to the barrier.
There was no way he could know Alonso would definitely beat his pole time so why would he do it when he already had pole and the advantage at the time?
Smacks of ganging up on him by the paddock and the stewards to me. And Keke Rosberg! Who the hell is he to have a pop at any of the drivers? Essentially a spectator and shouldn't be getting involved. His son gave the best response IMO.
Massa crashed out in the first round in a very strange manner that none of the commentators could fathom our either. I think "it didn't seem right" is thus dodgy ground to stand on for such a precedent.
Keke Rosberg! Who the hell is he to have a pop at any of the drivers? Essentially a spectator and shouldn't be getting involved. His son gave the best response IMO.
I agree, he was very critical and seemed more very much decided Schumacher parked it, Nico on the other hand gave a similar response in context but it was his choice of words that made him sound really mature about it compared to his father, same applies for Flavio Briatore too.
I think the most telling thing is that most people involved in F1 who are, for want of a better word, fairly 'neutral' with regards to MS, that I saw interviewed have said that it looked very much dodgy. I can't remember seeing a single person interviewed who expressed a clear view that Schumacher likely didn't do anything wrong, aside from himself and Ferrari representatives.
As for Keke Rosberg, well, I don't blame him for expressing an opinion, blame the media for interviewing him if you really want to. I can't see why his opinion is much less valid than, say, Jackie Stewart's though, who would also be classed as "essentially a spectator" too.
Andrew70
29-05-2006, 01:30
There was no way he could know Alonso would definitely beat his pole time so why would he do it when he already had pole and the advantage at the time?
He had pole advantage provisionally until he parked the car and made it permanent. Of course he couldn't have known whether or not Alonso would beat his time but his actions suggest he didn't want to take that chance.
Schumacher has been very much a double edged sword for Formula One. His skill in a car to challenge Senna was eagerly welcomed but his repeated unsportsman like behaviour has soured his achievements beyond redemption for many F1 fans. As long as he continues to deny his 'judgment errors' he will never get the universal respect he seems to think he deserves.
Aardvark_DK
29-05-2006, 07:33
His skill in a car to challenge Senna was eagerly welcomed but his repeated unsportsman like behaviour has soured his achievements beyond redemption for many F1 fans.
As much as I (now) dislike Schumacher, I find it a bit amusing that you should mention Senna; he is highly regarded now but let's not forget what a prick he often was on a racing circuit. Certainly Suzuka '90 is as bad as anything Schumacher has done.
splobber
29-05-2006, 09:19
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8484/schu5fb.jpg
wow. How does one get away with posting something as offensive as that, other than having "Administrator power" to back up against the big-bad-banning-stick :shrug:
splobber
29-05-2006, 09:48
It's got nothing to do with me being an admin and has been posted numerous times before. I don't post anything that I wouldn't allow someone else to post in any case. You could have posted it and wouldn't have got banned...I guess it's OK for you and loads of others before you to infer that we are Nazis though.
:lol: fair enough :thumbs:
I think Schumacher probably saw it as a low risk move...as in, he wouldn't be caught on it. Yes he had the advantage of provisional pole, and perhaps he didn't need to end the session this way, but he probably thought he wouldn't get any repercussions from doing it. I am glad that he was pulled up on it though.
Bearhorn
31-05-2006, 13:34
Put simply, you don't win as many races, set as many fastest laps or qualify on pole as many times as Michael Schumacher has in his career without being exactly the type of person he is.
Did he make a mistake at Monaco or did he do it deliberately - who knows other than himself? Certainly I am in no position to judge. It hasn't damaged his reputation at all because what is truly admirable about Michael Schumacher is his 'win at all costs' attitude. This attitude manifests itself in different ways, sometimes it is in his attention to detail, 99.9 per cent. of the time it is through his sublime talent on the race track at the wheel of the car - even at Monaco, his drive from the pit lane to fifth place was nothing less than awesome, but there are a few times when it manifests itself in ways which are not so ostensibly 'sporting'. I have absolutely no problem with the latter because he backs it up with a complete and utter lack of compunction when he does these things. He is a model in self-belief and Monaco encapsulated in a microcosm Michael Schumacher's Formula 1 career, that even during the times where his actions have brought the harshest criticism, he has the mental strength not only to believe that he is beyond reproach but to go beyond and block it all out to produce what was arguably the drive of the race.
This is what sets champions like Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna aside from some of the best drivers in the world. There are no end of people who complain that Coulthard and Button lack the so-called 'killer instinct' to make them champions yet the irony is that the killer instinct they are seeking from the likes of Button and Coulthard is the very instinct that they are condemning in another driver.
Well put Bearhorn.
Like others I do not know if Schumacher did it on purpose or not... surely even if Alonso did beat him to pole, he must have known how strong his car was?
The display of driving he showed on that day to race to fifth (and very nearly third) was a true measure of his skill. Had it been any other driver, would they have been punished the same way? We'll never know... all this has done is push the championship further into Alonso's pocket, who must be thinking it's his year again... the man's a good driver (but not in the same league as Schumacher, at least not yet) but how much good fortune can one guy get? He didn't deserve that win one bit... if not Schumacher, it should have been Kimi, or Webber. I wonder who's soul he's sold for all this good luck...
Oh, and I had to laugh at Martin Brundle's driver of the race... Coulthard, yeah right.
I fear this event will overshadow MS for the rest of his career now, I think he should have been given the benefit of the doubt as there was really no way they could prove without any doubt that he intended to it, so they judged him guilty. No doubt helped by all the other team bosses and popular weight of opinion.
I hope he can still win the championship, but I fear it's all tall order now.
redmosquito
31-05-2006, 14:50
Put simply, you don't win as many races, set as many fastest laps or qualify on pole as many times as Michael Schumacher has in his career without being exactly the type of person he is.
Did he make a mistake at Monaco or did he do it deliberately - who knows other than himself? Certainly I am in no position to judge. It hasn't damaged his reputation at all because what is truly admirable about Michael Schumacher is his 'win at all costs' attitude. This attitude manifests itself in different ways, sometimes it is in his attention to detail, 99.9 per cent. of the time it is through his sublime talent on the race track at the wheel of the car - even at Monaco, his drive from the pit lane to fifth place was nothing less than awesome, but there are a few times when it manifests itself in ways which are not so ostensibly 'sporting'. I have absolutely no problem with the latter because he backs it up with a complete and utter lack of compunction when he does these things. He is a model in self-belief and Monaco encapsulated in a microcosm Michael Schumacher's Formula 1 career, that even during the times where his actions have brought the harshest criticism, he has the mental strength not only to believe that he is beyond reproach but to go beyond and block it all out to produce what was arguably the drive of the race.
This is what sets champions like Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna aside from some of the best drivers in the world. There are no end of people who complain that Coulthard and Button lack the so-called 'killer instinct' to make them champions yet the irony is that the killer instinct they are seeking from the likes of Button and Coulthard is the very instinct that they are condemning in another driver.
:notworthy
Andrew70
31-05-2006, 19:40
It hasn't damaged his reputation at all because what is truly admirable about Michael Schumacher is his 'win at all costs' attitude......but there are a few times when it manifests itself in ways which are not so ostensibly 'sporting'. I have absolutely no problem with the latter because he backs it up with a complete and utter lack of compunction when he does these things. ....even during the times where his actions have brought the harshest criticism, he has the mental strength not only to believe that he is beyond reproach....
I'm appauled that you would come out so resolutely on the side of cheating to win because - and I paraphrase - 'achieving the victory justifies it'.
It's been a long time since I read such a load of crap dressed as apologist justification and the sooner Schumacher is out of the sport the better.
I really can't believe you wrote that.
What a bizarre opinion. (Bearhorn`s)
It`s alright that he cheats because it shows a greater commitment than others have?
The whole basis of sport is to operate within a set of restrictions or rules, without those it`s nothing. One of the defining qualities of a great sportsman (or person in general) is the dicsipline to operate within the acceped limits despite the drive to win at all costs. It`s a testament to his weakness as an individual that he fails that test so regularly.
rbullivant
31-05-2006, 20:38
To be honest I am not really good at any sports so it really annoys me when those that are the best cheat on top of that, if you can't win fair then you don't deserve to win in my opinion.
Wanting to win is one thing, when you endanger the lives of others in the sport (Hill, Villeneuve) to win you are over the line. If it had been Scott Speed doing something similar they would have been banned for a long time, superlicence withdrawn etc. As it's Schumacher and the sport needs its stars he got away with a grid demotion.
Leave F1 to those that can fight fair, ban all the others
Rik
Aardvark_DK
31-05-2006, 21:10
Wanting to win is one thing, when you endanger the lives of others in the sport (Hill, Villeneuve)
You're not seriously suggesting that Schumacher "endangered" the lives of Hill and Villeneuve, are you?
I'm appauled that you would come out so resolutely on the side of cheating to win because - and I paraphrase - 'achieving the victory justifies it'.
It's been a long time since I read such a load of crap dressed as apologist justification and the sooner Schumacher is out of the sport the better.
I really can't believe you wrote that.
It's funny, I was listening to Talk Sport on the way home last night and Rodney Marsh was saying exactly the same sort of thing as Bearhorn, except referring to Football. That anything goes so long as you can get away with it. This opinion seemed to polarise opinion in a way that I've rarely heard on there before.
There clearly seem to be two types of people - those who feel that a great sportsman is someone who plays by the rules and proves they have the talent to rise above the rest, without resorting to dirty tricks. And those that think you can't be a great sportsman without being prepared to use whatever means necessary to win.
Personally, I hate this win at all costs attitude, but those who are criticising the decision at the weekend and in particular Briatore's reaction (who also seem to be supporting Schumacher!) might like to consider that perhaps Briatore has done whatever it took to win this one himself! Not so great when the boot is on the other foot, is it?
Andrew70
01-06-2006, 10:00
If Briatore's was a lone voice you might have a point, but he shouted handball along with dozens of others and the ref(s) disallowed the Ferrari goal.
The fact that the action taken against Schumacher for what he did benefitted Flav's own team position is merely a consequence of the application of the stewards decision.
If you don't want to risk conceding penalties, don't foul the opposition.
The problem about all this whether you think it's right or wrong is this (quoted from PlanetF1**:
And although the stewards claim that the evidence suggests that Schumacher's mishap was not a mistake, one steward, Joaquin Verdegay, recently conceded that they "don't know for sure if the entire manoeuvre was deliberate."
His statements have angered Ferrari President Montzemolo, who told the Gazzetta Dello Sport newspaper that "regardless of the type of justice, either sporting or otherwise, I don't like a guilty verdict that is based on presumptions.
To me, thats the main issue here... if they couldn't decide 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did do it on purpose, then surely he deserved the benefit of the doubt (wife's a solicitor, she pointed this fact out). But then apparently one of the stewards is a Spaniard and they had everyone in the pitlane crying foul... which obviously influenced their decision I think.
Andrew70
01-06-2006, 14:05
I know they deliberated for eight hours but do we know the mechanics of how their verdict was arrived at?
I mean, did the stewards' decision have to be unanimous or just a majority?
Joaquin might possibly be the only steward who holds that view.
To me, thats the main issue here... if they couldn't decide 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did do it on purpose, then surely he deserved the benefit of the doubt (wife's a solicitor, she pointed this fact out).Firstly, it's worth noting that he said they "don't know for sure if the entire manoeuvre was deliberate". That's hugely different from saying that they weren't sure if any part of the manoeuvre was deliberate.
Incidentally, I remember that Schumacher denied the whole Villeneuve incident was intentional for quite a while. Should we have given him the benefit of the doubt on that one too?
Here's the full text from the interview on Planet F1:
http://www.planet-f1.com/News/Story_Page/0,15909,3210_3213_1255727,00.html
"It was a painful decision because we could not make a mistake and put the reputation of the driver at risk," he told Gazzetta dello Sport.
"We don't know for sure if the entire manoeuvre was deliberate, but in that spot he had certainly not done anything like it throughout the weekend."
"Schumacher braked over 50% more heavily than on the other laps he did. He then performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally."
"He lost control of his car while traveling at only 16km/h. That is something completely unjustifiable. And the engine only shut off because he wanted it to by losing enough time before hitting the clutch.
"And the excuse that he did not engage reverse because there was traffic doesn't make sense at all."
"If he had damaged his Ferrari we would have probably filed the matter as an error.
"We have only applied article 116 of the sporting regulations which says: if a driver affects the results of other drivers by committing an error, you can cancel all of his lap times."Finally, I have to say that Bearhorn's post is perhaps the most eloquent piece of writing I've seen in favour of talented sportsmen cheating.
I'm appauled that you would come out so resolutely on the side of cheating to win because - and I paraphrase - 'achieving the victory justifies it'.
It's been a long time since I read such a load of crap dressed as apologist justification and the sooner Schumacher is out of the sport the better.
I really can't believe you wrote that.
Only you could have come up with such a response. Perhaps that goes some way to showing why this country has so few successful sportsmen and sportswomen these days, i.e. they don't have enough desire to win.
Andrew70
03-06-2006, 00:49
Only you could have come up with such a response. Perhaps that goes some way to showing why this country has so few successful sportsmen and sportswomen these days, i.e. they don't have enough desire to win.
There's a difference between a desire to win and cheating. The guy you idolise hasn't grasped that and your comments suggest you haven't either.
BTW, I thought you were leaving this country that you like to run down so much. It must have been a couple of years ago now when you were telling us how you couldn't wait to get out.
I'm curious to know what keeps you in this dreadful place.
You'd have joined the sheep and shouted foul even if Schumacher had ploughed nose first at speed into the barrier last weekend. I give most people the benefit of the doubt, and would have thought "what a berk" had he done that rather than think "he must have done that deliberately to spoil Alonsos lap".
As for why I haven't left the UK, that's my business. I'm responsible for an 8 month old now, and intend bringing him up not to be so narrow minded as to think the worst of everyone that isn't British.
NB. The war finished in 1945, something I think some Brits fail to grasp!
The Bear
03-06-2006, 09:43
IMO the stewards are opening a whole new kettle of fish by saying that if he'd damaged his car there would have been no action taken.
Every time a car stops/stalls out on circuit with anything but mechanical failure or a crash, they are inviting teams to complain that they are doing it to benefit themselves or their own team in some way.
Ferrari will be looking for the first opportunity to throw this back in the Stewards and other team's faces.
I can`t see what the problem is. All suspicious incidents will be looked at by the stewards. Surely that`s part of their job that should, and is, going on behind the scenes all the time.
Andrew70
04-06-2006, 01:43
....and intend bringing him up not to be so narrow minded as to think the worst of everyone that isn't British.
NB. The war finished in 1945, something I think some Brits fail to grasp!
Ah, the old xenophobia fall back, beloved of those who have nothing else to offer.
A strange accusation indeed since I've mentioned several times on this forum that my most admired F1 pilot is H-F Frentzen because of his selfless loyalty towards Sauber at the time of the Senna tragedy.
Whatever :)
I really miss a guy like Senna who always raced fair.
:lol: Apart from the time he tried to kill Prost that is
Aardvark_DK
05-06-2006, 20:26
:lol: Apart from the time he tried to kill Prost that is
I hope the sarcasm that was dripping from my post didn't stain anything. ;)
rbullivant
05-06-2006, 22:30
So just because Senna didn't always race fair that automatically makes it commendable for Schumacher to do the same?
Rik
hunts1uk
05-06-2006, 23:06
Someone open a silverstone thread and put this one to bed. :cuckoo:
Aardvark_DK
06-06-2006, 06:00
So just because Senna didn't always race fair that automatically makes it commendable for Schumacher to do the same?
Nice try.
No, I just find it ironic that Senna is almost deified in F1 circles at the same time that Schumacher is villified (sp?).
Someone open a silverstone thread and put this one to bed. :cuckoo:
I wonder why? :lol: :suspect:
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