Proposed new setup - opinions wanted

[wise1]

Hi all

I'm thinking of getting the following setup:

Exisitng:

Philips 28 widescreen TV
Tosh Nicam Vid
Grundig Sky Digibox

proposed additions:

AMP - Denon AVR1602 or Marantz SR4200
DVD - Pioneer 444 or Tosh 210e
Front Speakers - Mission M74
Centre - Mission M7C
Rears - Mission M72

All opinions greatfully recieved :D - especially regarding the Mission speakers. I'm not too sure about having Floor Standing Fronts & Bookshelf rears.

[MikeK]

Originally posted by wise1
Hi all

I'm thinking of getting the following setup:

Exisitng:

Philips 28 widescreen TV
Tosh Nicam Vid
Grundig Sky Digibox

proposed additions:

AMP - Denon AVR1602 or Marantz SR4200
DVD - Pioneer 444 or Tosh 210e
Front Speakers - Mission M74
Centre - Mission M7C
Rears - Mission M72

All opinions greatfully recieved :D - especially regarding the Mission speakers. I'm not too sure about having Floor Standing Fronts & Bookshelf rears.


It really depends on what the system's primary use will be.

If it's for AV use primarily, then IMO you may be better off getting some smaller (and cheaper) speakers all round, and getting a decent subwoofer. Good as the M74s no doubt are in the bass dept, they still won't compete with a good sub for impact and slam. Another thing I'd check, is how well the M74s match the centre speaker. I've never heard them together, but on paper it doesn't look that ideal to be honest (although you can't always tell from that), especially if you are using the system without a subwoofer to compensate for the centre speakers lack of comparative bass performance (nice beefy left and right channels, with a weedy centre won't be that great - a sub can help, as it can do bass duties for the centre)


For less money (£300 all in), you could look at 2 pairs of Mission700, a Mission 70c1 and a Paradigm PDR10 or Tannoy MXSUB10.
Another alernative (at £330) would be 2 pairs of Kef Cresta 1s, a Cresta centre and one of the same subs.
Another £70-80 would get 2 pairs of Diamond 8.1, a Diamond centre, and again one of the same subs, which would bring the total cost up to around the same.

If you intended to put the M74s up against the walls, be careful.
The bass could become very boomy - you can bung the rear port with foam to prevent/reduce this, but this will reduce the low end bass extension, which defeats the object of M74s in the first place.
One last point - if you are intending to use M74s as a way of getting away without a sub, then consider this.
Many budget amps will deliver nowhere near their rated power when driving all 5 channels at the same time. Some 100W rated designs struggle to produce 5x40W at the same time. As bass takes up the lion's share of amplifier power, you can easily run out of steam with budget amps and end up with less than what you wanted. You may hear comments like "bass is fine in stereo mode playing a CD, but lacks depth slam and impact in multichannel mode" - it's likely this may be why (but bear in mind, as I said earlier, the M74s will not compete in any case with decent purpose designed sub, for low end extension).


If 2 channel music is the primary concern, then it may not be the speakers which would be the weakest link. Both the amp and DVD player may be that - the M74s would probably be comfortable with much better music eqpt than that.

[Urban Tiger]

MikeK,

You have concentrated very much on the sub aspect, many people cannot use a sub because of their living arrangements. I would prefer to buy a better set of 5 speakers and add the sub later if thats desired.

I listened to alot of speakers and the Missions are 1st class. I use M74's as fronts and would have used bookshelf M71's as rears but didnt due to their size. I now use Tannoy MX1's instead as they are not so deep.

I do think however, that buying M72's for rears is overkill, where the M71's would do the same job if they are for rears only.

The weak link in this Mission series is the M7C centre. It is a truly awful speaker of massive proportions. It is not from the same set (obviously) but I would recommend the Tannoy MXC centre. For £70 (in black) or £80 (in beech), it is certainly not weedy and more than holds its own against the M74's. It is also a very neutral speaker and does not sound out of place with the M74's tonally.

As for the amps and players, go and have a listen and decide yourself which sounds better in a demo, you have done the hard work of making a short list. Go and have a listen and buy what sound good to you :)

[Neon]

I've got Yamaha RXV-620RDS with M74 mains, M7C1 centre and M7DS rears. The M7C1 (which incidentally is most definitely not "a truly awful speaker of massive proportions" and most definitely is from the same set - take alook at the pretty pictures - http://www.mission.co.uk/m70_range.htm ).

As far as tonal matching is concerned, I have not heard any change as vocals are panned from left, through centre to right.

I have just bought a sub, although I have lived with the above system for about 6 months. The M74's are capable of some surprising bass extension. Up until the purchase of my sub I directed the LFE channel to these speakers. There is not the real gut-wrenching rumble a "proper" sub can produce, but there is precision and slam.

If you do decide to go for Mission speakers, my only suggestion would be to consider the M7DS rears, rather than M71's or M72's.

[Urban Tiger]

Neon, maybe I didnt make myself clear. I know the M7C is from the same set, I was trying to say the Tannoy MXC isnt from the set but will sound better than the M7C.

Sound is all about opinion, I do believe the M7C is an awful speaker. Having fallen into the trap of auditioning the M74's and being blown away and buying the M7C as part of the set without auditioning it properly, I was majorly disappointed when I set it up at home. I lived with it for a couple of weeks before going to the Tannoy centre. Compared to the 74's, its poorly made, it shape does not help the acoustics and compared to an MXC it loses alot of detail and 'snap' that the MXC has.

I do agree that, if you do not want/cannot have a sub, the 74's provide excellent bass extension.

As a pair of 74's can be picked up for £202, I think they are a bargain.

As for rears, it depends on your preference and where they are to be sited. I like my sounds 'direct', therefore bookies do that better than the DS's would. As the 71's are approx £30 cheaper than the DS's and have a slighter greater frequency range than the DS's, it would be a good idea to listen to both before buying.

[MikeK]

Urban Tiger


I think you are missing the point a bit.

If you are going to add a sub later on, there's little point in going for something like M74s now.
If two channel music is a priority and (like many) you don't like using a sub (unless it's a REL or like, many can be a bit "loose" with music), then you may have a point.
But if it's not, and the system is primarily for AV (with perhaps occasional or casual CD listening - ie not critical) then even big floorstanders like the M74 cannot compete with a decent sub.
As many film soundtracks are deliberately mixed to make the most of the LFE channel, then choosing a system which will make the most of this would seem to be sensible to me.
From a sonic perspective, there is nothing that M74s can do, which isn't equalled by the M71 (for instance), save for bass performance. (not that the M71s are in any way tinny). Or do you think the M74 is better in other ways?
In fact, given a recording without deep bass, you may find many people preferring the M71 - smaller drivers are more agile (although the difference between a 130mm unit and a 160mm one would probably be very marginal), but it's well known that making a good small loudspeaker is easier than making a good big one.

Given that sonically, the M74s only real advantage over the M71 is bass performance/extension, then once you add a decent sub to the M71, then what has the M74 really got left to offer over the M71.
It's now outperformed by it's smaller sibling and sub, in the one area it offered any real advantage.
True, in a music only system, it's debatable. Few music recordings require reproduction below about 40Hz (so the extra extension the sub may have would be negated), and the better imaging and possibly control, of the M74s (given that there's no LFE mono channel) may well swing the pendulum back.
But the price you would pay in AV, is practically the entire bottom octave of a DD/DTS recording being missing, and it's there that bass effects get their impact.
Also, without a sub, you are relying on the main amp supplying power for all the deep bass, inc the LFE channel - and sadly many are simply not up to the task. Dynamic bass transients (such as a deep explosion) can draw very high instantaneous currents, which many amps lack both the PSU and output stages to be able to deliver.

Fair enough - as you say there may be some who cannot fit a sub and pair of bookshelf speakers into their living space, but can fit a pair of large floorstanders. For these people, the decision has been made by other than sonic considerations.


If a system has to double for critical music listening, then I may tend to agree, to a point. In such a system, as I said, M74s without a sub may prove better than M71s with. You could also then perhaps add a sub to get the extra AV impact, and simply turn it off when listening to music - but this flexibility comes at a price.
However, in such a system, I wouldn't really be recommending either of the DVDs or amps suggested.


I suppose it comes down to this.
Decide what the system's primary use will be. If it's for AV, you just have to accept the compromises that brings to music (for many people, they are irrelevant anyway)
If it's for stereo music, then you just have to accept the compromises that brings to AV.
If it must perform equally well with both, and you have a critical ear, then be prepared to be spending a lot more, as few, if any, budget products (especially the electronics) are really up to it.

[wise1]

Cheers for the info so far - & its only 9am in the morning!!

I'm primarily going to use the setup for AV, but it will replace my Technics HiFi in the living room for "occasional" music listening.

I take your points regarding the M72's as they will probably be used only as Rears. I want to avoid the M7DS as rears though as I don't want to wall mount them, but have them on stands. And TBH I don't like any of the stands for Satellites - I prefer the Bookshelf stands.........

Also you're right about the Sub, I'm trying to avoid buying one, but if I did, what would be your recommendations?? ( If I get one, it won't be long after the initial purchase).

As for the Centre speaker - 2 against 1 so far on the M7C being pants! It looks like I will have to reconsider that one! It will be in a AV stand, such as a Sound Style or Apollo (as my Philips is curved so it would just slide off).

Finally - the AMP, if you guys were buying a similar setup, what would you go for in terms of power then?

I know I know, I started off with a nice little short list, and now I'm almost throwing it out the window.....

If the costings come out a little more, it will be time to take the wife out for a meal, buy her some flowers and have a nice little chat :eek:

[Urban Tiger]

Mike,

I was only trying to point out your post concentrated alot on the sub when that wasnt what was being asked. I accept all your points.

My reasoning was as you guessed, I turn on my sub for movies and turn it off for music. The 74's give me better bass and punch for the music in stereo/direct mode.

I also prefer the look of floorstanders as front speakers rather than bookies on stands

As always, if you are building a system that has to play AV/music, there are always compromises :)

[MikeK]

Wise1

Not quite 2 against 1 for the centre - as I said, I've never heard it alongside M74s - but based on what I have heard from others, I simply suggested you may want to try it first.


You may be interested to know that Richers are currently doing the Mission 77 series on special offer.

773 - £200
772 - £120
771 - £100
77c1 - £100

so are similarly priced against the m70 series.
All a matter of opinion of course, but these are sweet speakers, and come with real wood veneer finish as opposed to vinyl.
No guesses which I'd go for between the two.

As I've already gone on about the relative merits of subwoofers in AV systems, I won't harp on about that.
REL are good (but pricey - eg Q150E at £500), but I didn't really rate the Q50 for the money (don't think they make that one any more though)
MJAcoustics got a pretty good review for their new model at £300, but I've never heard it.
Pound for pound the Paradigm PDR10 is a good buy and a creditable performer (it's no REL though), and the Tannoy MXSUB10 isn't too bad either.
There are of course plenty of others too, so it would be a case of listening to a few.


If I were buying a budget amp now, it would probably be the Marantz SR5200. For the money, it'll be as good sound-wise as anything else, and it's feature count is spot on.


BTW - if you can find a better centre than the 77c1 for £100, please let me know - I'll probably buy one too :)

[MikeK]

Originally posted by Urban Tiger
Mike,

I was only trying to point out your post concentrated alot on the sub when that wasnt what was being asked. I accept all your points.

My reasoning was as you guessed, I turn on my sub for movies and turn it off for music. The 74's give me better bass and punch for the music in stereo/direct mode.

I also prefer the look of floorstanders as front speakers rather than bookies on stands

As always, if you are building a system that has to play AV/music, there are always compromises :)


That's fair enough ;)

While he didn't directly ask about a sub, he did ask for opinions about his proposed setup. I simply gave him mine.

You have the best of both worlds, I suppose, and you didn't seem to mind spending the extra. That's fine - if there's no financial limits, it's probably what I would suggest.

But what I did was offer him some options for similar or less money which would, IMO, give similar or better results for AV.

As you said - it's all opinion in the end, and ultimatley there is no definitive right and wrong (except perhaps Bose :) )
It's his money at the end of the day, and he'll be the one listening to it all, so he'll have to sift through the differing slants, maybe (hopefully) get a few demos and make his decision from there.
I certainly don't want to get into an argument about it.
As you said as well, there may be reasons apart from just sound alone, which may sway the decision as well - I've just posted one, which is real wood veneer vs vinyl ;)

[Urban Tiger]

Originally posted by MikeK

except perhaps Bose :)

Now we agree 110%! ;)

I also have a Paradigm PDR10 and it is very good for the cash :)

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by wise1
AMP - Denon AVR1602 or Marantz SR4200


The latest Richer Sounds ad in back of 'What Hi-Fi' has got these in it:

Yamaha DSPAX620
Yamaha RXV800 - £379.95
Pioneer VSX909RDS - £399.99
Sony STRB1070 - £449.95

Not sure if they're better or worse than your 2 choices above.

The one that caught my eye though was the Arcam AVR100 for £399.99.