Canons new dSLR. Wants and speculation. [Archive]

Sprout Crumble

24-01-2006, 16:26

Well its only a month or so until the rumour mill would have us believe that Canon are to release a new camera (possibly two). As usual there's quite some amusing speculation knocking around but found this and had to share.

This is basically exactly what I'd like instead of that 5d thing they foisted off on us last time.

EOS 3d

http://sproutey.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/eos3d.jpg

'Rumour' - 45 point AF and eye controlled focusing linked in so that you look at a focus point and have it do the work for you. Maybe have a button that allows you to switch between using the points to focus and to meter.
Check the lens out. That would be damn perfect as well. Far too good to be true. Shame.

Also speculating on a 30d with 21 point AF, 7fps and 10.1 mp.

As I said, idle speculation but interesting anyway. Be good if people could post any other rumours and see how they pan out.

Wish that 3d was real though dammit!

puddleduck

24-01-2006, 16:42

'Rumour' - 45 point AF and eye controlled focusing linked in so that you look at a focus point and have it do the work for you. Maybe have a button that allows you to switch between using the points to focus and to meter.

Woo! Basically an EOS 3!? (the film version) I love eye controlled focus!

Ravioli

24-01-2006, 16:54

I hate eye control auto focus lol

gothmog

24-01-2006, 16:58

What I would want, roughly in order of likelyhood:
More exposure bracket range of HDR (should be there really if they're paying attention :suspect: )
Ability to set the fps in burst mode (Stupid that you can't do this on the 20D - should happen)
A better viewfinder (possibly).
Eye control (unlikely).
Self cleaning sensor (not going to happent this time).
Moon on a stick.
Portable Sun.
On camera IS (never happen).
A user interface that's not a bit rubbish (will never happen it seems ;))
ISO in viewfinder :brickwall :brickwall (never happen).

What we'll get:
Bigger LCD screen.
More buffer.
More mp.

Other than that I don't expect much in the way of featureset innovation.

Sprout Crumble

24-01-2006, 17:03

Eye control is a distinct possibility. The DIGIC II processor is much more able at the kind of processor intensive tasks that this would entail and the technology would be easier to implement in a dslr. I don't think a sensor cleaner will come soon but in camera IS has benefits that are unavoidable. Bit of a heat issue more than anything and it'd be hard to implement on a full frame sensor.

I'd be happy with a tweaked, higher spec 20d in that body. Perfect for me.

Radiohead

24-01-2006, 17:04

Spot metering should be in there (if I'm right in thinking the 20D lacks it?)

gothmog

24-01-2006, 17:08

Spot metering should be in there (if I'm right in thinking the 20D lacks it?)

Yes it should, but in the way you (former ;) ) D70 guys didn't miss ISO100, I don't miss spot metering because I never had it IYSWIM :thinking: :)

sideshowbob

24-01-2006, 17:19

What I would want, roughly in order of likelyhood:
More exposure bracket range of HDR (should be there really if they're paying attention :suspect: ) - 9 exposures, using 1/2 and full stops with the D200;)
Ability to set the fps in burst mode (Stupid that you can't do this on the 20D - should happen) - 5 fps in High Speed and configurable low speed continuous on the D200;)
A better viewfinder (possibly) - D200 better than the D70 by quite a margin
Eye control (unlikely) - whey ghey
Self cleaning sensor (not going to happent this time) - good plan
Moon on a stick - always handy when you're short of ideas for the weekly comp
Portable Sun - my arse ;)
On camera IS (never happen) - how would they sell all those lovely IS lenses?
A user interface that's not a bit rubbish (will never happen it seems ;)) - will it need a mouse?
ISO in viewfinder :brickwall :brickwall (never happen) - good idea, dead handy on the D200 as I quite often forgot to change it back to something normal from when I was buggering about in the dark

What we'll get:
Bigger LCD screen - 2.5" fo sho
More buffer - certainement mon brave
More mp - just a touch

Other than that I don't expect much in the way of featureset innovation.

I've added my comments. :)

You didn't mention more buttons and bigger buttons. The 5d has spot metering, so I reckon the next model (assuming it's pitched at 20d level or above) will have too.

Sprout Crumble

10-02-2006, 19:48

Interesting rumours of a new ultra low-end body that could really sell loads. Limited spec but most don't care if it means access to a big-name digital slr system on a budget. 6mp, no RAW, etc.

CANON EOS 3000D (http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolog/reviews/canon/canon_eos_3000d.php)

Plenty of other rumours of a 35D replacement for the 20D claiming 10mp etc and even a supposed picture of the instruction book. The actual name seems to make sense but the rest is pure conjecture.

puddleduck

10-02-2006, 19:59

Apparently Nikon reduced the price on the D50 to counter any entry level offering from Canon.

More choice for the consumer - and more bang for the buck! Don't see many losers in this one!

Samiad

11-02-2006, 08:24

I would like a split-prism focus screen, or at least an easily changeable screen.

I'm not sure about whether I want my next camera to be full frame. I've got used to 1.6 ratio (never had a film camera), and I've got my Sigma 10-20mm which I love. I would like a larger eyepiece though, so there is that benefit.

Sam

11-02-2006, 08:32

My wishes have all been covered above, but in order of preference:

45 point AF
ISO at least in the top panel at all times if not in the viewfinder
bigger brighter view finder
split-prism focus screen
eye focus control
Priced at about £500 ;)

Sprout Crumble

11-02-2006, 09:46

I'm not sure about whether I want my next camera to be full frame. I've got used to 1.6 ratio (never had a film camera), and I've got my Sigma 10-20mm which I love. I would like a larger eyepiece though, so there is that benefit.

I truly don't believe that full frame will ever be more than a niche product. Only about 1 in 40 Canon dslrs's sold are FF and no other manufacturer, most tellingly Nikon, have shown any inclination to release one.

There's a rabid crowd on some of the photo forums saying its the future but evidence for that amounts to a big fat zero.

Radiohead

11-02-2006, 10:00

It's not something I'm interested in at all - with the release of ultra-wides for APS-C sensors there's no need for me.

Samiad

11-02-2006, 10:05

puddleduck

11-02-2006, 10:07

I personally think within 5 years all new DSLRs will be full-frame. I think its inevitable if megapixels continues to be the main marketing driver - I suspect that APS-C sized sensors are going to start hitting some hard limits with regard to noise / pixel densities soon.

I think FF prices will start falling sharply - I suspect FF cameras will come with some sort of crop mode to retain compatibility with APC-C (digital only) lenses.

Personally I don't care or need FF (I like my 1.5x zoom factor on long lenses) but I still think its the future...!

pkr

11-02-2006, 10:08

I truly don't believe that full frame will ever be more than a niche product. Only about 1 in 40 Canon dslrs's sold are FF and no other manufacturer, most tellingly Nikon, have shown any inclination to release one.

There's a rabid crowd on some of the photo forums saying its the future but evidence for that amounts to a big fat zero.

I have read as well that the 5D is selling very badly with shops in Vancouver still trying to sell their initial supply. This may indicate that these highly voluble people on forums such as DPReview are very much in the minority.

The most reliable info re Nikon ( the news of the last couple of weeks heavily discussed on DPReview is widely considered to be non reputable ) is that they haven't ruled out a 24x36 sensor body but will only produce it if they see sufficient demand. This again argues that 24x36 is currently a very niche market which Nikon do not consider worthwhile at this point in time. There may be other factors here as well though. One Nikon employee has stated that the venerable F mount is not ideal for 24x36 owing to its relatively small diameter. To design and implement a new mount is a very risky course. Look back at the hysteria in 1987 when Canon dumped the FD mount for EF.

puddleduck

11-02-2006, 10:10

I'd be willing to bet quite a large sum of money (price of a Mars Bar at least!) that within 18 months Nikon will have a FF DSLR on the market.

Sprout Crumble

11-02-2006, 10:23

A Nikon bigwig very recently stated that the DX format is where they see digital and I couldn't agree more.

Full frame sensors are already struggling with the quality of many, many lenses and likely to be more of a problem than sensor noise for which the 20D, as an example, copes extremely well.

The 5D can't be a great seller because I've never seen a Canon camera drop in price so quickly and so heavily as this one. Canon are known to be a particularly mercenary company regards pricing so the drops certainly weren't planned.

puddleduck

11-02-2006, 10:29

Let bookmark this thread, and if within 18 months Nikon haven't got a FF DSLR on the market, I'll send you that Mars Bar :)

The 5d is actually very nice - a friend of mine uses one (he is a die hard film shooter) and didn't want the APS-C "crop" and for landscapes it really is VERY nice. I almost bought one when in Japan as it was very cheap over there just to mess about with.

Samiad

11-02-2006, 10:37

Sprout Crumble

11-02-2006, 10:48

Canon are expected to release a few new lenses this month as well. I'm sure EF-S will figure. The reaction to the change from FD to EF mount alone means Canon wouldn't release short-term lenses and besides, the vast majority of bodies sold are EF-S compatible. Certainly wouldn't worry about that.

Andy, Nikons DX bodies go up to over £3000. Exactly where is this FF model going to be positioned?
P.S. Make it a Curly-Wurly

puddleduck

11-02-2006, 11:01

Andy, Nikons DX bodies go up to over £3000. Exactly where is this FF model going to be positioned?
P.S. Make it a Curly-Wurly

Good call on the Curly-Wurly :)

Price-wise? Well I'd say about £3.5k on launch. Remember it'll be a niche market product which will always attract a price premium. After that I guess FF'll just start trickling down the product lines, as new technology always seems to filter down pretty quickly in Nikon products.

I think the megapixel limit for DX is about 18 megs (I think Nikon themselves have said this) so I just don't see longterm - considering that megapixels seems to be a huge selling point - how Nikon can avoid not going FF..?

rambler

11-02-2006, 11:06

I have to agree with Samiad on EF-S lenses. What's the point in buying a lens that can't be used on a 5D/1DMII, etc, if you can get one that can for the same sort of money?

A good example is the Canon 60mm macro. Why would anyone buy it over the 100mm macro, as they are almost the same price, but the 100mm is far better, and if you upgrade your camera, you can still use your lens.

The only point of EF-S lenses is for ultra-wide angles like the 10-22mm,

Radiohead

11-02-2006, 11:44

IMO the 5D was way overpriced at £2.6k when launched and is already down to £1800 body only. Interesting point in this week's BPJ where both Canon and Nikon pretty much admit the MP race is over and that cameras are now focussing on features. Getty Images lists both the D200 and D2X as acceptable for non-interpolated images and that pretty much means they're as good as they need to be.

Sprout Crumble

11-02-2006, 12:36

True. The megapixel race has hit barriers of storage, in-camera processing, lens resolution and mass-market need.
8-12mp APS sized sensors are capable of outstanding results which will only improve as time goes on in the same way that all electronic devices do.

I fail to understand this obsession on some boards with anything but FF being a compromise. 35mm was a FILM based requirement. What right-minded person wouldn't jump at the chance to have superb results in a smaller, lighter body capable of having smaller, lighter, cheaper and better performing optics. Utter madness and firmly rooted in the past.
The strangest thing is, to most modern SLR users, the sensor size doesn't even figure into it so where the zealots get the idea that FF is the future and will sweep all before it at the head of the great Canon wave is bloody ridiculous.
Canon have latched onto a unique selling point with FF (no other FF body is relevant) and are milking it for all its worth. Normally I'm all for variety but that damn 5D has probably stopped me getting the 1.6x 3D body I really want with features that will enable me to capture images a 5D would struggle with (sports, harsh environments, wildlife etc)

pkr

11-02-2006, 12:49

It's very uncertain at this point. I'm still avoiding EF-S because I don't think it's future is certain (despite what Canon might say!).

For the time being, I'm staying with all EF equipment, and my 10D. Whatever comes along won't change how our current equipment works anyway.

EF-S will be around for a very long time. Sensor yield per wafer is the deciding factor. You get significantly fewer sensors per wafer for 24x36 than APS sizes and owing to wafer defects, the %age yield is far lower. The only way to reduce costs is to use bigger wafers ( you get more defects, but yield does increase ). Still doesn't make a huge difference though as those larger wafers can also be used APS sensor production with even larger yield gains making them relatively cheaper again.

In addition, as production of APS sensor sized cameras massively exceeds production of 24x36, there will always be a huge market to sell EF-S lenses if anyone wants to move to 24x36mm. And good lenses don't depreciate that much.

pkr

11-02-2006, 13:07

I fail to understand this obsession on some boards with anything but FF being a compromise. 35mm was a FILM based requirement.

But not only that it was also a completely arbitrary size. The movie industry persuaded Kodak to cut it's standard 70mm stock in half to give 35mm film. Leica comes along ( IIRC thinking about all the wasted film stock in the movie industry ) designed a camera around it but turned the image through 90° to give a 24mmx36mm image ( instead of the movie 'half frame' ).

Totally arbitrary and absolutely irrelevant to digital imaging*.

The only advantages 24x36 has are based upon film based expectations ( depth of field for a particular focal length ) and available 24x36mm wide angle lenses being faster than anything currently available based on APS sensor sizes 9 DX, EF-S etc ). Neither of those are insurmountable problems.

* Unless technology maxes out APS-C in terms of photosite sizes/noise.

Sprout Crumble

11-02-2006, 13:17

Especially as the increased depth of field for macro work, crop factor for increased telephoto resolution and the appearance of the superb 10-22mm EFS have all been ideal for me.

Rambler, the 60mm f2.8 EFS is at least the equal optically of the 100mm and is a fine example of why APS sensors can lead to smaller, lighter and optically superb lenses. Remember that 100mm is the best compromise length for a macro lens and that on an APS sensor, 60mm has the same field of view as the 100 on a film camera. On APS sensors, the 100mm can be a little long for general macro work. To be honest, if one comes up cheap enough, its a lens I'd love. The Sigma 150mm is superb but heavy and the 60mm is a real gem.

Samiad

11-02-2006, 13:23

I would say EF-S is more likely to stay with us for a while than disappear any time soon - but speaking in a personal capacity I am refraining from buying EF-S lenses because I cannot say for certain that my next camera will not be full frame. I don't want the hassle of having to sell a bunch of lenses.

sideshowbob

11-02-2006, 13:52

I have only one DX lens (Nikon digital only), being the Tokina 12-24. I would be cautious about investing in expensive lenses that might be redundant if I ever got the chance to upgrade to FF (assuming I wanted to). I think the issue is not so much 35mm equivalency that is important, more the fact that you get a larger sensor with a FF DSLR and that in itself should give greater scope for lower noise and higher pixel counts (at lower densities) etc.

Radiohead

11-02-2006, 13:55

My two killer lenses, the 70-200 and 28-70, are both FF if need be, but I generally don't avoid DX lenses if they do a good job for me now.

Leigh

11-02-2006, 20:21

I see theres rumours of a 35D as well

the ghost

11-02-2006, 20:41

dont know about you lot but that picture does not look real to me maybe just a hoax
but any way what about the new ccd chip they have ... forgot what... were or when i saw it but they have designed a new chip sensor that blows away the present sensors
i think that is the way they will go 20 odd mega pixells will be out by the xmas period

as i said before thefirst pic looks fake to me maybe im wrong but with the new sensor i would not go rushing of to buy new stuff yet with the new sensor comming

Radiohead

11-02-2006, 20:51

i think that is the way they will go 20 odd mega pixells will be out by the xmas period

It won't be below £5k if it is.

I seriously doubt we'll see that sort of advance this year myself, not with SLR's. Leaf offer this sort of level with their digital backs like the P25/P30/P45. The 45 MP P45 outputs images that are 175mb - the camera is £25k. Mamiya are just about to launch their MF digital back - this sort of thing is way removed from what we all do. Pro PJ's don't need 20MP resolution.

Sprout Crumble

11-02-2006, 20:58

It is a fake, which is a huge shame as it looks well proportioned, built and functional. However, this one was never claimed genuine, just someones wishful thinking.

Forget rumours of super-sensors. The 35D(?) won't break 10-11MP and just be a mildly improved version of the 20D's one. Neither the D200 or the 35D will be replaced this year and 20MP sensors at this price are at least two years away.

Pentax, Olympus and Sony have bugger all chance of trumping Nikon or, particularly, Canon on sensors at the moment.

Buy with confidence

the ghost

11-02-2006, 21:13

It won't be below £5k if it is.

I seriously doubt we'll see that sort of advance this year myself, not with SLR's. Leaf offer this sort of level with their digital backs like the P25/P30/P45. The 45 MP P45 outputs images that are 175mb - the camera is £25k. Mamiya are just about to launch their MF digital back - this sort of thing is way removed from what we all do. Pro PJ's don't need 20MP resolution.

yeah understand were you comming fromm but the new chip hopefully will hit slr's and the ones you discussed will be out of date with the new chip
and be a lot cheaper

Sprout Crumble

11-02-2006, 21:51

Not going to happen soon.

Even Pentax are talking about releasing a 22mp 645 MF camera with a greater than 35mm sensor (therefore lower density) and thats still gonna be £5000-6000.

20mp £1200 cameras are a pipedream for the foreseeable future. Don't worry about it.

Samiad

12-02-2006, 06:22

emeyedeejay

12-02-2006, 08:09

All a 20mp camera will do for me is :

1 - make my 4GB memory card all the more paltry
2 - make me even lazier with my composition as I can crop more easily.

I agree that we need featuresets more than the other things. Hopefully the digital electronics in DSLR will continue to become cheaper to manufacture and we will see prices of the bodies getting near the film versions.

That said (regading point 1) By the the time a 20mp camera is "affordable" (in the not too distant future I'm sure) a 20/40/60 etc. GB CF (or whatever format will be around) will cost a qaurter of what your 4GB card did.

sideshowbob

12-02-2006, 08:43

I would be more interested in wider dynamic range than increased pixel counts - if they can crack that, they'll be laughing (I mean I'll be laughing, or we'll all be laughing)

Samiad

12-02-2006, 10:26

That said (regading point 1) By the the time a 20mp camera is "affordable" (in the not too distant future I'm sure) a 20/40/60 etc. GB CF (or whatever format will be around) will cost a qaurter of what your 4GB card did.

Which will make me cry as it'll be yet another card I have to buy...I think my collection of compact flash cards stands at 16MB, 32MB, 128MB, 256MB, 512MB and 4GB :lol:

When I fill the 4GB and start popping 128MB's into my camera I have to change cards quite frequently!! :lol:

puddleduck

12-02-2006, 11:02

Which will make me cry as it'll be yet another card I have to buy...I think my collection of compact flash cards stands at 16MB, 32MB, 128MB, 256MB, 512MB and 4GB :lol:

When I fill the 4GB and start popping 128MB's into my camera I have to change cards quite frequently!! :lol:

LOL! My first ever digital camera took 1.44 MB floppy disks - and my Kodak shipped with an 8 megabyte CF card which seemed huge at time! 1 megapixels seemed amazing at the time - one of my biggest ever regrets was taking that camera to "do" Arizona and The Grand Canyon rather than my FM2 with plastic Vivitar lenses :(

emeyedeejay

12-02-2006, 12:12

Matholwch

14-02-2006, 14:04

Well looks like the 20D price has dropped in HK, as all the fleabay sellers have reduced their prices accordingly - as has our very own OSD. So looks more than likely the new Canon DSLR will be announced at the PMA! :thumbs:

Radiohead

14-02-2006, 14:31

Any news on specs - lots of talk of a 20D refresh with a 10MP sensor and 2.5" LCD, which seems a bit unadventerous if true.

Matholwch

14-02-2006, 14:55

Any news on specs - lots of talk of a 20D refresh with a 10MP sensor and 2.5" LCD, which seems a bit unadventerous if true.
True, if thats all it is then Canon's in trouble - people are hoping (me included) that it will be a step up to compete with the D200, as at the moment the D200 is being compared to the 5D, but with a huge price margin between the two. Would expect Canon to react, apparently Canadian shops haven't been shifting 5Ds which arrived after they were first announced :nuts: .
Clearly the 5D isn't doing so well. Myself, I'd like the new camera to probably stick with 1.6x crop (although I do crave full sized - just so I get a bigger viewfinder), a bigger viewfinder, ISO in the viewfinder, better autofocus 13 points, spot metering and much improved dynamic range...

pkr

14-02-2006, 15:23

True, if thats all it is then Canon's in trouble - people are hoping (me included) that it will be a step up to compete with the D200, as at the moment the D200 is being compared to the 5D, but with a huge price margin between the two. Would expect Canon to react, apparently Canadian shops haven't been shifting 5Ds which arrived after they were first announced :nuts: .

I don't think you need worry. Canon is such a powerhouse that anything that comes out will sell because it'll do the job perfectly well. I doubt if many people switched to Nikon from Canon for a D200 ( some have but not many ) and I doubt that would change if the '35'D was a little underwhelming in new specification.

There are plenty of things on people's wishlist for the '35'D. Apart from a given that it will have around 10MPxl & a 2.5" LCD, people want spot metering, ISO in viewfinder & weather sealing. Nothing firm yet despite the 'scoop exclusive' on that Norwegian site that was shown to be nonsense because they claimed the '35'D has a 1.3x sensor but the picture they showed had an EF-S lens on it :D

The interesting thing is, that the cameras from Nikon and Canon don't really compete with each other that much. e.g. the D50 has no real Canon competitor, the closest is the 350D which is a step up in the feature set. The D70, in features, fits between the 350D & the 20D. Same with the D200 fitting between the 20D & 5D. If a 3000D appears it'll probably fit slighly below the D50 ( which is why I believe Nikon has just reduced the price of the D50 ).

Also, the release schedules for the 2 companies are so different as well. It is quite likely that the '35'D will come and be replaced by its successor before the D200 goes end of life ( there may of course be a D200s ). Nikon give a big change every 3-4 years whilst Canon typically give incremental changes every 18 months.

Matholwch

14-02-2006, 16:28

Except that Canon have just dropped the price on the 20D, usually happens (along with the £100 cashback) just before they unveil a replacement. I do think there will be a 3000D. Unfortunately the D200 is going head to head with the 5D, the only difference is the full sized sensor. All the tests being carried out on the D200 pit it against the 5D, with the 5D narrowly scrapping it in terms of image quality, but is beaten hands down in terms of value for money.
The 5D is simply not selling, they underwhelmed the features, subsequently people aren't buying.
Then again, you might be able to explain away the price drop on the 20D on it competing with the D200. And as a powerhouse I should imagine that Canon were aware of the D200 iminent arrival and would've scheduled its own competition. The D70 and 350D were competing against each other, the Canon won all the tests and was the recommended camera.
The 300D came out, then D70 to compete with it, then Canon bought out the 305D to compete with it, whilst Nikon aimed to undercut Canon with the D50. There was no competition with the 20D, now the D200 had come along and filled the niche in between the 20D and 5D.
I've got to say, I've been tempted to get the D200.

Radiohead

14-02-2006, 19:10

I've got to say, I've been tempted to get the D200.

And the quite marvellous 18-200mm VRII?

;)

Matholwch

14-02-2006, 21:14

And the quite marvellous 18-200mm VRII?

;)
Curse you and you temptations...Begone!!! :D

Radiohead

14-02-2006, 21:28

:lol:

www.cometonikonyouknowitmakessense.com,

downhillbiker

14-02-2006, 21:45

One of us! One of us! One of us! :D

swsxp02

14-02-2006, 21:53

:lol:

www.cometonikonyouknowitmakessense.com,

:shrug: Hmmm, link doesn't seem to be working for me....

:dork: :lol:

The thing is, with the number of cameras being released every couple of years, you've only got to hang on to your lenses for a short time before a body is released to suit them and your requirements. Be that Canon or...um... that other make.

Gotta admit the 'Non-Canon' D200 does look a fanatastic piece of kit and would suit me better than my 20D, but with the latest speculation, I'm sure that one of the next generation Canons will more than meet my needs. I'd still want a smaller (1.6x) sensor to make the most of my long leneses, so that rules out 1D/1DS/5D, but 10-12 megapixel would be a definite improvement.

Radiohead

14-02-2006, 21:55

Hell, I'm only kidding chaps. I've no doubt the new Canons will be great.

the ghost

14-02-2006, 22:26

Sprout Crumble

15-02-2006, 00:15

:lol:

www.cometonikonyouknowitmakessense.com,

And with that comment goes your last chance of a job....:D

The 20d replacement will be fine. Canon are sure hands with their sales flagship and the D200 is good but its an incremental step from the current 20d at best (the 5D is a specialist one-trick wonder). Some minor tweaking is all thats needed to be honest but I'd expect at least one cool new feature (live preview Olympus.. :lol: ) and some solid tightening up of the spec.

I still passionately want that 3D fake at the top. Comfortable grip is important to us larger blokes with bigger hands (the 20D's one is a wonker) and that looks just superb; mini 1D.

Failing a good upgrade though, its 1d2 time for the sprout and the 20D hits the seabed in a housing.

The 3000D looks a bit lightweight though, especially if it comes in close to the D50 which is a nice tool for the money.

fountainhead

15-02-2006, 07:59

ok here a link to something onthe canon 35d
this one loks more realthan the first post's picture
have a look any way it may have been posted before

http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/08/is-this-the-canon-eos-35d/

Still looks a bit small. I find the 20D a bit short in the body (I hate to think what the 350D is like if you've got big paws).

I think Canon really, if anything, need to focus on improving the ergonomics and functionality of the 20D replacement. Bigger buttons and more "to hand" controls would make it a better match for the D200. The 5D is a bit crap ergonomically / control-wise from what I've seen and I thought the 300D was also less intuitive than the D70 to control - irrespective of any other considerations. I think it's Canon's one big hurdle.

Leigh

16-02-2006, 14:00

Just spooted this over at fredmiranda;

=============================

I think the title says it all for itself. I've come into information suggesting the following. Whether Canon will choose to release them all during Photokina remains unknown. However, the following is what I've found out so far.

30D: Digic 3, 10mpx

3D: Digic 3, looks similar to 5D on the outside, FF, priced between 5D and 1DS RS

1DS RS: Pellicle system, reminiscent of the 1N RS. 5fps on the full 18mpx, 8fps (on a crop maybe?), 18mpx, not built as well as the 1DS Mk2, Digic 3, priced somewhere in the $6,000+ range.

10-22 mk2: Better build, to eliminate some wobbliness.

40/1.4 or 1.2

Italicized parts = not 100% solid, but pretty darn close.

Here is a link (http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/eos/EOS-1nRS/index.htm) to the film-equivalent of the upcoming 1DS RS. Go figure.

What is interesting about this piece of news is that if true, Canon has now a complete set of FF cameras, from 5D, to 3D and 1DS RS. This mimics their film series of EOS-5, EOS-3 and EOS-1 series. VERY VERY interesting. This could tempt a significant segment of film shooters to move to (more) affordable FF. The decision to retain a 30D/350XT pro-/consumer series will also bring in most of the moolah for Canon.

And before you start flaming me, my source has actually handled the 1DS RS himself. Just thought I'd share it with the larger community. Let me emphasize however, that this is not a prediction on whether Canon will be releasing them in this final form. I'm simply passing on some tidbits of information, nothing more. If it coincides with their eventual release, all the better.

Brozyniak

16-02-2006, 14:50

/Scratched head. In what way would the 3D be different from the 5D other than costing more?

pkr

16-02-2006, 15:08

/Scratched head. In what way would the 3D be different from the 5D other than costing more?

Make it more on par with the 20D in terms of frames per second and the other things they pared back on the 5D ( compared to the 20D )?

sideshowbob

16-02-2006, 15:13

I think they need to start again with their naming conventions.

Sprout Crumble

16-02-2006, 15:28

I just wish the whole bloody thing would be over with and we knew what was coming out.

Radiohead

16-02-2006, 16:04

I'm confused and they're not even out yet.

RobDickinson

16-02-2006, 19:03

Is there realy enough space between the 5D and 1Ds? Considering theres the 1Dmk2 N too. That and there not shifting the 5D at all a 3D would have to be so close to the 1D to damane the 1d's sales...

Logic says an update/refresh of the 20D or a merging of the 20D/5D to make a 30/35D.

I wasnt aware the 10-22 needed sorting either, especialy as they wont give it L status.

I can see something (EF-S?) replacing the 70-200f4L , and an improved mid range zoom (17-50mm, with IS, prehaps L, unless the 17-85 gets refreshed/L'd). I guess that depends on Canons sensor stratergy, if there sticking with APS-C for the lower 2 tier cameras then they'll do more EF-S lenses, but I can see the 20D level getting FF sometime in the next few years.

pkr

16-02-2006, 19:12

RobDickinson

16-02-2006, 19:14

But who would go for it? 1D is a pro's camera, 5D is a low level pro/wealthy amature.

Either the 3D isnt going to be good enough for a pro or too good and kill the 1d?

Radiohead

16-02-2006, 19:18

5D is full-on pro for wedding/studio/landscape work IMO.

That said, not many on the FM thread are buying much of this

Sprout Crumble

16-02-2006, 20:49

5D is a fine camera but possibly proof Canons vision of FF for all is a little misguided and most just aren't interested. After loads of price cutting, in fact more than i've ever seen on an SLR so soon after release, its still a grand more expensive than the 20D. Other than fractionally better image quality and this ludicrous belief that it makes all your lenses 'normal' again, it really doesn't bring that much to the party. Viewfinder is brighter but not particularly so and it has a few tweaks the 20D lacks but then the reverse is also true. At similar prices you can see the appeal of the choice but the way it stands now, the 5D is still at least £500 overpriced.

The 30D rumour is a no-brainer. Everybody expects 10mp and some tweaks. The 3D makes no sense except as a replacement for the 1dII, and unless the resolution is quite high (1Ds2 high), the crop mode will be stepping back in resolution which is hardly going to please the pros. If its not the 1dII successor, its got a miniscule market priced the way this guy is suggesting. Why would Canon market 3 high-end FF cameras and still leave a huge gap between the 20D and the 5D? Makes no sense.

The pellicle idea is cool. Believe it when i see it though.

Why will Canon just not give me the bloody camera I want? A 3D 1.6x pro-spec flagship for under £1500. Am I the only one that sees a healthy market for it?

Sam

16-02-2006, 20:54

...

Why will Canon just not give me the bloody camera I want? A 3D 1.6x pro-spec flagship for under £1500. Am I the only one that sees a healthy market for it?

Nope you're not the only one. It'd certainly be something I'd seriously consider. The 5D just doesn't offer enough for its price and whilst when I 1st started with digital photography I yearned for FF, now I'm used to 1.6x and ultra wide angle lenses are available I'd miss the extra on my telephoto zooms now.

Matholwch

16-02-2006, 21:26

My main reason for lusting FF is the viewfinder. Take a look through the viewfinder on a film SLR and then your DSLR, and you notice the difference straight away. That coupled with better AF, and I'd be well happy.

Sprout Crumble

16-02-2006, 21:47

You'll be surprised how small the difference is with the 5D. Certainly didn't seem to be a patch on my old EOS-5.

Radiohead

16-02-2006, 21:52

Why will Canon just not give me the bloody camera I want? A 3D 1.6x pro-spec flagship for under £1500. Am I the only one that sees a healthy market for it?

It's looking Nikon really did it's homework with the D200. Mind you, it took them long enough to get there.

Brozyniak

16-02-2006, 22:11

Nope you're not the only one. It'd certainly be something I'd seriously consider. The 5D just doesn't offer enough for its price and whilst when I 1st started with digital photography I yearned for FF, now I'm used to 1.6x and ultra wide angle lenses are available I'd miss the extra on my telephoto zooms now.

If the right something came out priced between the 20d and 5d and offered enough then I would opt for it too. I'm not with you on the 1.6 argument though. Remember the smaller sensor doesn't give you extra, it really just takes away - you can always crop your images to the same result.

For my ideal I would like to have FF or 1.3x, larger viewfinder, eye controlled autofocus (I loved this, made focussing so fast), spot metering, and for ergonomics an integrated vertical grip like the 'fake' in the first post which is less bulky than the battery grip add on. Weather sealing would be nice. Can't give 2 hoots about fps as I rarely shoot outside of the one shot mode.

Radiohead

16-02-2006, 22:13

You can see what a nightmare camera development can be though - we all want something different.

Sprout Crumble

16-02-2006, 22:27

If the right something came out priced between the 20d and 5d and offered enough then I would opt for it too. I'm not with you on the 1.6 argument though. Remember the smaller sensor doesn't give you extra, it really just takes away - you can always crop your images to the same result.

Not strictly true. A cropped 5D image of the same angle of view of a 20D shot contains only 5mp or so. If the 30/35D goes to 10mp like the D200, FF is missing a hell of a lot of detail.

RobDickinson

16-02-2006, 23:00

Not strictly true. A cropped 5D image of the same angle of view of a 20D shot contains only 5mp or so. If the 30/35D goes to 10mp like the D200, FF is missing a hell of a lot of detail.

Nah - FF has it, cant compare a FF 50mm croped to 85mm vs a 1.6x 50mm shot, you have to use differing focal lengths to cover the same area. Means you dont need such wide lenses but longer. I guess you can make do with slow wides if you can get fast long lenses 'cheaper' on 1.6?

FF has more control over DOF and less noise.

Sprout Crumble

16-02-2006, 23:19

In which case the whole argument about losing the 1.6x crop factor raises its head. With the advent of some superb quality ultra-wide zooms (Canon 10-22mm for example), the 1.6 crowd have the extended reach as well as the wide range covered. The only way to get that reach back on FF is to crop and lose 60% of your resolution, use an extender and lose quality, or buy longer telephotos and lose the contents of your wallet and the ability to walk unaided in later life.

1.6x also has greater DOF for macro work, is far more tolerant of vignetting and lens quality tailing off towards the edges, has faster frame rates and larger buffers for high-speed work and remains significantly cheaper to buy (20d + 10-22mm + 50mm + 70-200 f4L + 430EX flash = 5D body).

Theres a reason only Canon push FF and thats because it'll be pointless before it becomes established as a mainstream system (great cheap replacement for medium format though). Sensor quality is rapidly approaching the limits of modern glass. Ironically, lens quality can be improved further by optimising for a smaller sensor. I'm with Nikon on this one; APS-C has established itself as the digital format of choice and anything else is in a niche where negatives begin to outweigh positives.

And before Radiohead gets too big a grin on his face, its Nikon in principle

RobDickinson

16-02-2006, 23:55

FF Still has a better control of DOF, you need faster lenses (lower F stop) on 1.6 crops for the same shallow DOF. And you can use higher apature settings for bigger DOF on FF.

APS-C has a lot of advantages, cheaper glass (Doesnt use the outside of normap EF lenses), more reach for free etc, but like most things in life theres tradeoffs.

Sprout Crumble

17-02-2006, 00:01

True. I don't actually dislike FF and can see why some like it. It just really grates, especially on Fred Miranda, when people look down there noses at the 1.6 crowd as if they've bought a dodo. The 5D seems to have really polarised opinion but I just couldn't understand how, whatever the technical merits, photographers there claim its a bargain. Just ridiculous.

RobDickinson

17-02-2006, 00:37

Only Canon make full frame DSLR's and up until now they've been verypricey, to get one for under £2k is a bargain...

Brozyniak

17-02-2006, 08:05

Not strictly true. A cropped 5D image of the same angle of view of a 20D shot contains only 5mp or so. If the 30/35D goes to 10mp like the D200, FF is missing a hell of a lot of detail.

10MP for a FF is on the low side. Canon will need to keep the resolution of the fullframe sensor to reasonable levels or else the point of FF is vastly diminished. I would not buy a 10mp FF - now the 16.7MP FF sensor in the 1Ds II... Ok I'm not saying that we would get one in a mid ranged prosumer camera...yet - but doesn't mean that I don't want one :nuts:

puddleduck

17-02-2006, 08:08

I'm looking forward to my Curly Wurly from Sproutie :)

Nikon will be sure to respond to this - they need to cater for those making the move from film to digital and who want their lenses to work as before. I'd be surprised and amazed if we don't get a FF announcement from Nikon by the year end.

Brozyniak

17-02-2006, 08:13

DamienB

17-02-2006, 08:17

My own personal wishlist for the next Canon DSLR:

Automatic sensor clean
1.3 or 1.6 crop is fine.
Automatic sensor clean
Autofocus that always gets it right, no more focusing on the background please.
Automatic sensor clean
Render blue skies as blue, not some vaguely purplish blue.
Automatic sensor clean
Render bright oranges and reds as bright oranges or reds, not hideous neon pink.
Automatic sensor clean
Render bright navy blues as bright navy blue, not BRIGHT!!! BLUE
Automatic sensor clean
Rethink the entire user interface, particular if it's a 1 series body
Automatic sensor clean
Auto ISO mode
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean

Brozyniak

17-02-2006, 08:21

My own personal wishlist for the next Canon DSLR:

Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean
Automatic sensor clean

Oh yeah forgot that. I want one too. You can keep the other 11 :lol: But you may want to calibrate your monitor :p

DamienB

17-02-2006, 08:35

The monitor is calibrated... the colour faults are all common 1DMk2 problems under various circumstances that most people seem to ignore!!

Sprout Crumble

17-02-2006, 08:37

10MP for a FF is on the low side. Canon will need to keep the resolution of the fullframe sensor to reasonable levels or else the point of FF is vastly diminished. I would not buy a 10mp FF - now the 16.7MP FF sensor in the 1Ds II... Ok I'm not saying that we would get one in a mid ranged prosumer camera...yet - but doesn't mean that I don't want one :nuts:

I meant that in comparison to a 30D at 10mp, the current 5D gives away a lot of resolution when cropped to the same field of view.

pkr

17-02-2006, 18:06

Someone's found a page from the upcoming Spanish 'Showtime'.

It appears to announce -

30D
EF 85mm
EF-s 17-55

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=17225481

People are going to be miffed on DPReview if it's 'only' 2 new lenses!

simion_levi

17-02-2006, 18:27

RobDickinson

17-02-2006, 19:59

Nikon use sony sensors, so there somewhat tied to what sony develops. Canon make their own and do as they please.

I'd heard about the ef-s 17-55 but its going to have to be cheap or top quality with the 17-85 IS around.

pkr

17-02-2006, 20:25

Nikon use sony sensors, so there somewhat tied to what sony develops. Canon make their own and do as they please.

It's actually a design co-operation. Many people make the mistake of saying that the same sensor is in the D100,D70(s) & D50 for example. They are in fact different and are all unique Nikon/Sony designs ( although there are some rumours that the D70 sensor found its way into the KM 7D ). It is also said that the D70 sensor is actually made by Sanyo.

The LBCAST sensor technology is also totally Nikon in house. Whether that gets developed further is currently unknown.

There are also persistent rumours about the Fuji Super CCD & Nikon.

I'd heard about the ef-s 17-55 but its going to have to be cheap or top quality with the 17-85 IS around.

It is primarily to compete with the Nikon 17-55 DX.

sarny

17-02-2006, 22:32

So FF is what exactly? Whats the advantages of it and why is it *the future*?

Regards

puddleduck

17-02-2006, 22:51

It is primarily to compete with the Nikon 17-55 DX.

If its anywhere as near as good as the 17-55 DX Canon will sell bucketloads... :)

Sprout Crumble

17-02-2006, 23:49

So FF is what exactly? Whats the advantages of it and why is it *the future*?

Regards

FF means Full-Frame and refers to a sdensor of 36x24mm in size; i.e. the same size as a 35mm film negative.

Primary advantages are as those set out by Rob Dickinson above and the primary negatives are as set out by myself just below the above...:D

Sprout Crumble

17-02-2006, 23:51

It is primarily to compete with the Nikon 17-55 DX.

If its anywhere as near as good as the 17-55 DX Canon will sell bucketloads... :)

Canon don't usually set their sights that low...:D

sideshowbob

18-02-2006, 07:54

It is primarily to compete with the Nikon 17-55 DX.

If its anywhere as near as good as the 17-55 DX Canon will sell bucketloads... :)

Noting of course that it's a EF-S mount not EF, so it would rule out its use on the 5D and other pro/semi-pro FF bodies. On that basis I can't see it being in the same niche as the 17-55 DX.

Sprout Crumble

19-02-2006, 21:25

Apparently, the 'NEW' tags that sat alongside the pictures of the 1D2n and the 5D have just disappeared from the Canon US website. Can't believe anyone noticed to be honest.

Also, as from next week until the end of June, there is supposed to be a new rebate scheme for the EOS 5D which amounts to a tidy 300Euros (probably £225) back.
On the one hand its nice to see the overpriced 5D get towards a sensible price (£1500 IMHO) and pressure the D200 but on the other hand, I've never seen a camera drop in price so heavily and in such a short space of time. Shop prices from an undiscounted £2500 in anticipation of heavy demand, to around £1600 when the penny drops and Canon realise most just don't give a toss for the whole FF concept in just half a year.

Just wish the damn 1D2n would hit an equally sensible pricepoint of £1850. As fine a camera as it is, there remains no justification for the huge premium Canon put on digital.

Brozyniak

20-02-2006, 15:04

Latest rumour is that apparently the 17-40L is to be discontinued.

Not sure why, hasn't been around that long

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/354076

puddleduck

20-02-2006, 15:07

Latest rumour is that apparently the 17-40L is to be discontinued.

Not sure why, hasn't been around that long

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/354076

Add more fuel to the fire to the 17-55 rumour.

Brozyniak

20-02-2006, 15:28

Add more fuel to the fire to the 17-55 rumour.

Well to replace it, the lens would have to be L spec. For Canon to produce an EF-s L spec lens would be a first...

Leigh

20-02-2006, 15:42

Not much point is there? I thought EF-S was on its way out?

Sprout Crumble

20-02-2006, 16:02

puddleduck

20-02-2006, 16:11

On the contrary, EF-S will likely continue to rise in both popularity and range. Don't forget that 95% of all Canon cameras and 100% of all Nikon, Pentax, Olympus and KM cameras all employ APS-C or smaller sensors so this kind of digital only lens will continue to proliferate.

I bloody well hope so, I've just bought two Nikkor DX lens - and I've generally tried to avoid APS-C lenses "just in case" - but you can't fault the optics - does put a bit of a dampener on my film side of things though!

BTW I used the Canon 300mm F4 IS + 1.4x Canon TC over the weekend and it was awesome - optically it compares well with the Sigma 120-300... :)

sideshowbob

20-02-2006, 16:18

:doh: I didn't realise the 17-55 was a DX lens. Shows how much I know. I can see the parallel with a Canon EF-S 17-55 now!

Sprout Crumble

20-02-2006, 16:51

Film is dead.

APS-C optics will continue to improve IMO, until they pull ahead of FF ones. The need for smaller diameter elements and their positioning closer to the sensor(film) plane are both aids to optical quality.

Also amazes me how proponents of FF talk about EF-S and DX being stop-gaps at the same time criticising edge performance on FF bodies.
The reverse to film has happened where the negative needed to be a certain size due to fundamental limits in the chemical properties of light sensitive materials. Its not hard to see the whole technology moving away from CMOS and CCD and yet remaining totally compatible with the systems as they stand; something impossible with film that despite refinements, never really changed that much in a century.