Spinnaker Tower, UK. My first D200 shots.

[silverpenguin7]

Taken last night, I drove a 200 mile round trip with some friends to go out for dinner for the evening and photograph this - Spinnaker Tower in Portsmouth, England.

http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pictures/homepage/hosted/tower.jpg

http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pictures/homepage/hosted/tower2.jpg

Both taken with the D200 and 12-24 DX which I was lucky enough to borrow from someone. WOW does the D200 produce some seriously sharp images with this lens!! I will be buying one at the end of the month to sit on my D200 full time having used it last night - this is going to be one expensive start to the new year!!

Both exposures were around 5 seconds at ISO 100 and F/9 and F/11 and Adobe RGB colourspace.

One annoying thing, I lost the cover for the 10pin terminal, its far too small and fidley to take off and keep safe when your fingers are numb from the cold :(

[Sprout Crumble]

Thats a cool looking building and a couple of great images showing it. Top stuff :thumbs:

[sideshowbob]

Nice - lovely sharp images.

I assume you're talking about the Nikon 12-24, rather than the Tokina with the same stats. It might be worth looking at the Tokina though, it's about £250 imported and looks to be a good performer - equal in many respects to the Nikon.

If you can read Japanese, this is apparenly a comparison of the Tokina, Nikon and Sigma 12-24mm lenses ...

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/review/2004/12/09/607.html

[silverpenguin7]

Yep its the Nikon version I used. I've researched both and the Nikon seems to be the winner. Plus the Tokina doesn't have an AFS equivelant silent motor.

I've read good things about the Tokina but I've read better about the Nikon and having used it and seen what it can do I know I want it! lol

It realy is the sharpest lens I've ever used, images viewed at 100% are so sharp still, very impressive stuff!

[sideshowbob]

I guessed as much - I wish I had such deep pockets though!

[puddleduck]

Yep its the Nikon version I used. I've researched both and the Nikon seems to be the winner. Plus the Tokina doesn't have an AFS equivelant silent motor.

I've read good things about the Tokina but I've read better about the Nikon and having used it and seen what it can do I know I want it! lol

It realy is the sharpest lens I've ever used, images viewed at 100% are so sharp still, very impressive stuff!

I've found the D200 really shows up lens - a decent lens is sharp or even sharper on the D200 vs. D70, while a soft lens is softer. I guess given the resolution this isn't unexpected, but 100% viewing is very revealing.

Someone on DPReview has done a really nice 1:1 crop comparison with the D200 vs D70 and also found this to be the case.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&thread=16618084

Looks very sharp to me - nice :)

I lost my cable release cover as well when using an MC-30 remote!

[Radiohead]

You should take a look at the Sigma 10-20mm as well, HSM motor and an excellent lens. There's a review of the Nikkor, Tokina, Sigma and Tamron ultra-wides over at Nikonians and they're very hard to split.

[silverpenguin7]

I read the review at Nikonians a few days ago just before I borrowed the 12-24. Its a close call thats for sure!

Those little covers are so annoying! I think I'm going to order a few spares in as I can see myself dropping it again in the future! lol

[puddleduck]

Silverpenguin7 - Bit of a bump here.. any chance of a couple of 100% crops from this?

I just sold my Sigma 10-20 as I wasn't really happy with its performance (v. poor sharpness) on the D200 and I'd like either the 12-24 Nikkor (especially at 7DayShop prices) or the Tokina 12-24.

[silverpenguin7]

Silverpenguin7 - Bit of a bump here.. any chance of a couple of 100% crops from this?

I just sold my Sigma 10-20 as I wasn't really happy with its performance (v. poor sharpness) on the D200 and I'd like either the 12-24 Nikkor (especially at 7DayShop prices) or the Tokina 12-24.
No problem at all, I'll do it tonight and stick them in this thread :)

[puddleduck]

Nice one :)

Cheers!

[Radiohead]

SSB's Tokina 12-24mm should arrives this week (Wed I think), so comparisons can be made. As much as I'd like the Nikkor, I'd prefer to spend the extra on getting the 28-70mm (although the 28-75mm has yet to be properly tested and looks pretty damn good thus far) and go for the Tokina.

The 28-70 is bloody huge though.

Here is is on a D70, and with the 18-70mm kit lens:

http://www.guycollier.net/images/ond70.jpg

http://www.guycollier.net/images/2870andkit.jpg

:eek:

[puddleduck]

Have you got a 28-70 now? :)

Again that doesn't look that big too me - Sigma 120-300 conditioning kicks in handily again :)

Having said that I bought a Sigma 28-70 f/2.8 which I'll try out - zoom ring is a bit stiff so unless its uber-sharp I'll probably sell it on.

I'll put up a few 100% crops from the 10-20 as well - it was pretty sharp when web-sized on the D70s but really suffered on the D200 - even at web resolution, and 100% viewing was painful....

[Radiohead]

Nooo - I have the Tamron 28-75mm f2.8. Very light and compact and generally reckoned to be excellent so it's likely I'll hang on to that if it comes through. Hoping to see some sun this year at some point here in Hampshire to give it a proper test.

28-75mm review (http://bobatkins.photo.net/photography/reviews/tamron_28_75.html)

[silverpenguin7]

Ok, I have spoiled you and done it now ;)

The two Spinnaker Tower photos were focused at around infinity. I say around infinity as was taking photos in auto focus and then switched to manual, forgot I had switched and later was pressing the shutter halfway down trying to focus again like a numpty! Because it musthave been at or around infinity when I switched to manual I never realised I wasn't in auto focus still as everything looked fine in the view finder....lol the things we do when we are freezing and in a rush...!

This is a 100% crop from the top image which was 6 seconds at F/11, 13mm.
http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pictures/homepage/hosted/examples/spinnaker_crop1.jpg

And this is from the bottom image which was 9 seconds at F/9, 24mm.
http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pictures/homepage/hosted/examples/spinnaker_crop2.jpg

And then you have this:
http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pictures/homepage/hosted/examples/tunnel.jpg

And a 100% crop. 1/3 sec at F/10, 12mm which is the focaul range when its at its softest I think I read?!
http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pictures/homepage/hosted/examples/tunnel_crop.jpg

[puddleduck]

bloody hell, that whizzes over my copy of the 10-20!!!

[silverpenguin7]

bloody hell, that whizzes over my copy of the 10-20!!!
lol, I've never seen any examples from any of the lenses in the 12-24's range so have no idea how it compares. All I know is I love the thing!

My friend has the 24" Mac cinema display and when we opened some of my images up on that both our jaws dropped because you can see so much of the image even at %100 on that screen. Very impressive!

[puddleduck]

Couple of crops from the 10-20....

From this image...

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_full.jpg

Corner....

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_crop1.jpg

Center...

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_crop2.jpg

And CA to boot...!

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_crop3.jpg

On the websize image none of this looks too bad, which is why I find 100% crops useful :)

[silverpenguin7]

Hmmm the sides of the image are pretty soft! The middle isn't too bad though. The final image I posted had a small amount of CA on the large black text, nowhere near as much as the image you posted though. I just hit the CA button in Nikon Capture and 5 seconds later all the CA was gone.

You can see the CA on the rocks as well in your bottom left crop I just noticed.

Your right though, %100 crops are the only real way of telling on the web! :)

[puddleduck]

yep, centre sharpness holds up well but it drops off badly towards the sides and corners, kinda defeating the purpose of a wide lens really!

I do quite like SWA lenses now after initialially being a bit sceptical, so I think the Tokina or Nikkor will fill the void - I think a 12-24 is a bit more of a useful focus length tbh as well.

That was a completely random sample (first time I've seen it actually!) but its pretty representative of the peformance I've been seeing. The Nikkor looks like it smokes it once you get outside the centre.

BTW any ideas as to flare handing...?

The 10-20 flared pretty strangely...

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_flare.jpg

[silverpenguin7]

Gimme a few minutes and I'll see what I can find with regards to flare. I had a couple of shots somewhere with the sun in the frame I think.

[puddleduck]

Excellent - this sort of thing is SO much more useful that reviews - really world experience is where its at :)

[Radiohead]

And you only saw this softness on the D200? I used the 10-20mm for 3 or 4 jobs last year and the images were all good enough for magazine adverts and company brochures. I'll have a look at a few tonight. Never used it on the D200 though and am leaning towards the Tokina at the moment as it's a huge amount cheaper than the Nikkor for what seems pretty much indentical performance. I could be convinced otherwise of course, but nothing I've seen yet has done so. The Nikkor 12-24 and 28-70 is £1500 or so, with the Tokina 12-24 and Tamron 28-75 is less than £600....

Likewise with the Nikkor 28-70 and Tamron 28-75, I'll need some serious convincing that the former is worth £700 more than the latter.

[silverpenguin7]

I have deleted all my shots that had the sun in or near as they were all pretty naff. I don't remember seeing any flare on them though. Next time the sun is out I'll try and get some examples for you.

I've heard the Tokina is good but I have to admit I love the SWM, I can't stand the sound of geared lenses. Makes my nice expensive camera sound cheap (lol, snob factor alert I know). And I just like the build of Nikons good glass. If the Tokina is as sharp or sharper than the Nikon then it must be a serious bargain and worth looking in to!

[puddleduck]

yep, the softness was worse on the D200 but I put that down to more resolution to resolve the nastyness more than anything else - I'm pretty sure that I generally felt it was pretty soft on the D70s as well compared to the 18-70 DX for example (although not a good example it was only a 2mm overlap!)

To me, the D200 really "found out" the 10-20, although I do see quite a few moans about 10-20 softness generally - whereas you never hear that about the Tokina or Nikkor. I guess 'cos I shoot in-camera settings I really want something that nice and sharp out-of-the-box rather than something I need to fix up later in post.

[silverpenguin7]

Andy, I'm just putting together a page of pics on my site with some more examples as I found some better ones. I'll put the link in here in a min.

[puddleduck]

Nice one - just going through some of my 10-20 shots - christ, I don't remember taking half of these...!

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/Japan/DSC7917_web.jpg

[silverpenguin7]

Here you go, more 12-24 DX %100 crops. (http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pages/other/12_24_test.htm)

Just to say, I HAVE sharpened these by %50 using USM in Photoshop CS as I wanted to see how a small amount of sharpening would affect them.

Andy I did a couple from the sides so you could see how sharp the lens is at extremes.

:)

[puddleduck]

Nice one - thats REALLY useful - corner sharpness is way better even taking into account the USM.

I've just been reviewing some of my shots and I didn't realise how much I used my 10-20 so I definately need a SWA - I'm really tempted by the Nikkor now!

[silverpenguin7]

Yep the corner sharpness is pretty good. I love the lens, well worth it IMO. Shame your not closer or we could have met up and you could have had a go of it to see what you thought!

[Radiohead]

Here you go, more 12-24 DX %100 crops. (http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pages/other/12_24_test.htm)

Just to say, I HAVE sharpened these by %50 using USM in Photoshop CS as I wanted to see how a small amount of sharpening would affect them.

Andy I did a couple from the sides so you could see how sharp the lens is at extremes.

:)

They are very good indeed. I'd sharpen by more than that anyway, particularly with the D200.

[silverpenguin7]

They are very good indeed. I'd sharpen by more than that anyway, particularly with the D200.
Oh yeah there is room for improvment with the sharpening. I was just doing it quickly. I expect with large prints I'll be boosting it up more than that myself :)

[Radiohead]

Impressive though. Very impressive.

[puddleduck]

They are very good indeed. I'd sharpen by more than that anyway, particularly with the D200.

I'm pretty blown away by those crops - the detail there is just amazing, whereas the Sigma is just a mush!

I'm starting become of the opinion (doubly so since owning a D200) that quality glass is the way to go...

/goes to look at 7DayShop...

EDIT - Who have now sold out - can't decide whether I'm gutted or relieved - my CC was certainly having palpitations :thumbs:

[silverpenguin7]

I'm pretty blown away by those crops - the detail there is just amazing, whereas the Sigma is just a mush!

I'm starting become of the opinion (doubly so since owning a D200) that quality glass is the way to go...

/goes to look at 7DayShop...
Yep, I've had that exact same feeling about quality glass myself since getting the D200. I've used my 24-120 VR on it yet as someone has been borrowing it since before xmas but I am going to give it a good testing out when I get it back to see how it performs...

As for 7dayshop...do it...listen to the voices...they are good.... :nuts:
(I said the same thing in the thread about their sale lol)

[Radiohead]

/goes to look at 7DayShop...



Just did the same.

:lol:

[silverpenguin7]

EDIT - Who have now sold out - can't decide whether I'm gutted or relieved - my CC was certainly having palpitations :thumbs:
There's always AJPurdy...£689, cheapest place I could find by about £40 for a none sale price. Just make sure you call them and quote the magazine price in the advert in AP as on the website its £740...

Thats if you reeeeeally want it of course... ;)

[puddleduck]

I do really want it - to be honest I had it in my basket a day or two back and got cold feet! I'm annoyed now :)

I'll see what Fai can do price-wise - otherwise I may take a punt on Ebay with someone else...!

[silverpenguin7]

I do really want it - to be honest I had it in my basket a day or two back and got cold feet! I'm annoyed now :)

I'll see what Fai can do price-wise - otherwise I may take a punt on Ebay with someone else...!
He told me he could do it for £580 a whie back. I almost went for it but I emailed Nikon UK and they told me they won't cover it and it would need to go back to HK if it needed fixing etc. Plus I don't thikn the warranty with Fai is a full Nikon one, could be wrong htere though as I've deleted the mails hesent me. I'm sure he will confirm if you ask him though how the warranty works.

EDIT: Excuse my typing there, I'm on my mac now dowstairs and for some reason I get a massive delay on this site when replying to messages. I type and the words appear about half a second later!?

[Radiohead]

He told me he could do it for £580 a whie back. I almost went for it but I emailed Nikon UK and they told me they won't cover it and it would need to go back to HK if it needed fixing etc.

That's what worries me about spending big bucks abroad.

[skenaja]

Hope you nikonians don't mind me butting in but I've done the same as silverpenguin7 and come up with some 100% crops from my Sigma 10-20mm. It sits on a 300D and is pretty sharp @ 10mm. The bright light, ISO100/F7.1/1/800s may be helping a bit though... There's also virtually no CA despite the huge amounts of snow.

Orig pic (reduced to 800x533)
http://photos.alexskene.com/albums/sigma1020-100crops/examplepic.jpg

Center
http://photos.alexskene.com/albums/sigma1020-100crops/center.jpg

center right
http://photos.alexskene.com/albums/sigma1020-100crops/centerright.jpg

top right
http://photos.alexskene.com/albums/sigma1020-100crops/bottomright.jpg

The pic was converted from RAW to TIF in RSE then 100% chunks were selected in PS & saved as JPG @ 70% quality. No sharpening or any other modifications were carried out at any point in the process.

full pic @ 100% (2.1MB) & more sections here:
http://photos.alexskene.com/thumbnails.php?album=49

I found it very hard to get flare with it (with the supplied hood) - here's the most "extreme" example I've got:
http://photos.alexskene.com/displayimage.php?album=44&pos=9

Here's a comparitive shot from last year with the 18-55mm kit lens:
http://photos.alexskene.com/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=87

[puddleduck]

Interesting! Looks way sharper than my sample - one thing to note though, RSE does background CA removal, and also does some sharpening as well (a 0 setting in RSE still sharpens, to turn off sharpening you need to set it to -50 and do some other gubbins as well)

I did my conversion in Nikon Capture editor with everything turned off - mind you, I still think you must have a sharper sample than mine!

[Radiohead]

Samples from my old 10-20mm on the D70 - some mild sharpening applied in NC, but only about 35%

Centre:

http://www.guycollier.net/images/1020centre.jpg

Side edge

http://www.guycollier.net/images/1020sideedge.jpg

Corner:

http://www.guycollier.net/images/1020corner.jpg

[puddleduck]

What NC settings, 35, 5, 0? I'll see if I can find a D70s NEF...

[Radiohead]

exactly those Andy

[puddleduck]

Here a D70s NEF, 1/60, f/11, 10mm..

35, 5, 0 USM, incamera settings otherwise as shot (incamera sharpening set to None)

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_test2_web.jpg

Centre:

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_test2_crop3.jpg

Corner:

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_test2_crop1.jpg

Side:

http://odysseus-software.co.uk/photos/albums/LensTests/10_20_test2_crop2.jpg

[Radiohead]

side and corners look softer to me

[puddleduck]

yep, thats pretty much what I've always seen - nice towards the centre then it tails off. The D200 exargerates it with the extra resolution I suspect.

You can get away with it for websize but for say A4 prints it looks a bit mushy - especially as the centre is sharp. If it was soft all over it probably wouldn't be as noticable!

[puddleduck]

That's what worries me about spending big bucks abroad.

Same here - once you factor in £60 quid for DHL or whoever for a warrenty trip things don't look such good value.

It really does make a mockery of those International Warrenty forms you get with lens!

[silverpenguin7]

skenaja, those don't look too bad at all! If they are true %100 crops and not %100 crops resized for web (which I'm not saying they are but someone on another forum recently did this not realising that didn't mean it was a true %100 crop).
I've not got any photos of close up stuff from my 12-24 yet, all my crops have been from things further from the lens than your picture. I'll do a couple of test shots on close things when I get a chance. Good stuff though, maybe the Sigma is just very hit and miss with its quality!?

[RobDickinson]

Pick up my sigma 10-20 later today, have my 350d with me but no datacable so will try a few test shots with it and see how it is.

Couldnt realy justify the extra for the canon tho - not atm when I need a range of lenses.

[silverpenguin7]

Ok, did a quick close up pic although the conditions were not ideal as you'll see! lol

Check the bottom of my 12-24 DX test page (http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pages/other/12_24_test.htm) for the dvd picture.

[sideshowbob]

Should probably be able to pick up my Tokina 12-24 from the depot today, so should be able to post some samples.

[Radiohead]

Ok, did a quick close up pic although the conditions were not ideal as you'll see! lol

Check the bottom of my 12-24 DX test page (http://www.richardpeters.co.uk/pages/other/12_24_test.htm) for the dvd picture.

Real corner to corner sharpness there. It'll be interesting to see how SSB's Tokina performs.

[RobDickinson]

OK some shots with my new sigma.

Cant say its pin sharp edge to edge yet but its not bad, and very little CA evident at all (no filter on yet). Does flare a bit but it was a very bright sunny day and I was taking quite a few into the sun.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/robdickinson/sigma10/image9.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/robdickinson/sigma10/image4.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/robdickinson/sigma10/image25.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/robdickinson/sigma10/image23.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/robdickinson/sigma10/image21.jpg

[puddleduck]

Real corner to corner sharpness there. It'll be interesting to see how SSB's Tokina performs.

Yep - you wouldn't really know those crops were from a wide ange!

BTW I e-mailed DigitalShop about their Nikkor 12-24.....

Hi Andy,

You're a correct!

We will ship the item as a Gift and declare lower value about 1/2 PRICE to help you minimize your tax (VAT) (if any) charged by Customs.

Items will be shipped by FedEx (WITHIN 3 days received). The service provided by FedEx is very reliable.

In fact, Customs need some information. We will handle all customs issues, if any, directly. Customers please don't answer any queries without our advice. As a value customer of us, please feel free and enjoy your shopping.
We will try our best to minimize your risks on tax.

In any event, we are not responsible for the tax. In case the Customs charge for the tax / VAT, and ask you for the invoice / info, please contact us before you send any document, we will try our best to lower tax.

For further questions, please don't hestitate to contact us.

Ling
Customer Service,
DIGITAL iSHOP

[silverpenguin7]

RobDickinson, looks good! You should get some %100 crops up, its the only way to tell on a monitor. Its looking good though :)

EDIT: Its worth pointing out that the shelfs on my dvd unit are actually bowed under the weight of the dvd's, so the distortion you see in the picture on my test page is worse than it would be if the selves were straight to begin with! lol

[puddleduck]

Well 7DayShop are back in stock for the 12-24 DX so I've just ordered one!

[silverpenguin7]

Well 7DayShop are back in stock for the 12-24 DX so I've just ordered one!
:thumbs:

[Radiohead]

Nice one Andy, I'm holding fire until I see what the Tokina does on SSB's D200.

[puddleduck]

Bugger - 7Dayshop are out of stock, despite their website showing stock! Grr!!


This is an automatated email - please do not reply as this address is not
monitored

Dear andy

Thank you for your recent internet order. We have experienced high demand for
the following product(s), which are now out of stock. We will not charge you
for these items until they are dispatched.
STOOM600 STO-FEN Flash Diffuser - Model Ref. 600 - LIMITED SPECIAL PRICE !
NIKONLENSAFSDX1224F4 Nikon - AF Nikkor Lens - ED IF AFS DX 12-24 f/4G for
Digital SLR

Crap! Might end up getting a Tokina now - does anyone know if 7DayShop are grey-imports?

[Radiohead]

I've ordered a Tokina from OSD. Same price with DigitalRev on eBay. £280 delivered.

Can't go to £600+ for a Nikkor just now.

[silverpenguin7]

Thats a shame :(

Well hopefully they will get more in stock soon. Otherwise hopefully the Tokina will be up to par.

[puddleduck]

They seem to think they are getting more stock - which is a bit odd if its a clearance item!

Looking at the price, I've a funny feeling they may be Grey Imports which doesn't bother me per se - but its not such a good price if its not UK stock - Nikon won't look at it if it needs service.

[silverpenguin7]

Hmmm not sure. Whats the normal price they sell it for? Its not that far off what I paid for mine so it could be uk stock?! They should make it clear on the site! grrr

[Radiohead]

If you want the Nikkor Andy, I'd stump up the small amount more and go with AJ Purdy. After the D200 import issues you've had I'd avoid anymore grey stuff myself.

[sideshowbob]

Right, some test shots from the Tokina 12-24

Will try and do a better job later, but these are just over the road, so a quick test.



<DIV ALIGN=CENTER>24mm

http://static.flickr.com/21/97097136_9d35676389_o.jpg

24MM Centre

http://static.flickr.com/28/97097113_2ba733d3bd_o.jpg

24mm Edge

http://static.flickr.com/27/97097075_26b2278558_o.jpg

24mm Corner

http://static.flickr.com/24/97097045_c87e95140a_o.jpg



12mm

http://static.flickr.com/35/97097010_5ef9ee7dab_o.jpg

12mm Centre

http://static.flickr.com/24/97097098_733fce4706_o.jpg

12mm Edge

http://static.flickr.com/40/97097061_c9e1a5acc6_o.jpg

12mm Corner

http://static.flickr.com/43/97097023_733db4a826_o.jpg

</DIV>

[Radiohead]

Not bad, not bad at all. Hope to get mine next week.

[puddleduck]

I assume these are USM'd SSB? I can see halos and stuff around the 12mm and 24mm centre crops - ie roof chimneys etc

If so any chance of a non-usm'd version if its not too much trouble so I can compare with my 10-20? What USM settings?

Corners look much sharper!

[sideshowbob]

Ah, will have a go at non-usm'd stuff.

[RobDickinson]

Just for info my pics are straight out the camera, no processing at all except resized, will try get round to some 100% crops later...