Ideas pls - DVD player with no layer change - under £500?

[Dave Knight]

Hi team!!

My Pioneer 515 is giving up the ghost (so to speak) so I'm after some recommendations for a new DVD player, with the following criteria:

1) No layer change (Pioneer had 1/2 second to 3 seconds depending on title - must be some players with a slice of RAM in them so this doesn't happen?!)
2) 2 SCARTS, Digital (Optical or Coax) output
3) Under £500 preferably (but up to £650 max. if the mutts nuts)
4) Excellent quality picture / sound
5) 'Known' manufacturer rather than some unknown ..

And would be nice for component / progressive too for future TV

Any ideas? All ideas appreciated - want to buy myself and the wife a nice Xmas present!!

Thanks in advance - Cheers


Dave

[Dave Knight]

Please guys/gals, any ideas?

Thanx


Dave

[johnsosn]

Sony 9000es

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by johnsosn
Sony 9000es


Thanx, but I've just had a look in DVD Review - its £1300 rrp!! Have you seen it for less than £750, in which case where please? Its £1099.99 on Upgrade Heaven, which is too far past the budget unfortunately.. its got amazing specs (and a price to boot)

Cheers Johnsosn!


Dave

[johnsosn]

You said your budget was 650max.
superfi.co.uk have a few left at 649.
I have one of these players but I paid 1100 when they were 1300 in the shops.
Top class,weighs 27pounds.and is a SACD player.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Dave Knight



Thanx, but I've just had a look in DVD Review - its £1300 rrp!! Have you seen it for less than £750, in which case where please? Its £1099.99 on Upgrade Heaven, which is too far past the budget unfortunately.. its got amazing specs (and a price to boot)

Cheers Johnsosn!


Dave

I own one of these and to be honest its a waste of money! The Toshiba SD900e and Pioneer Dv939 are both better performers. For the budget you have, audition the Pioneer Dv646A and Marantz DV4100OSE. Or if you can stretch your budget, get the new Pioneer Dv747A:)

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by johnsosn
You said your budget was 650max.
superfi.co.uk have a few left at 649.
I have one of these players but I paid 1100 when they were 1300 in the shops.
Top class,weighs 27pounds.and is a SACD player.

Wow! Cheers - at that price can't really go wrong!! Are the layer changes completely seamless?? So is there memory inside so it just skips past it as a continuous stream?? Wow half-price - I'm going for that - sorry yeah £650 just a slip of the keyboard finger, the wifey won't let me spend more than £650!

Pls let us know about layer change, worst one I've seen on R2 is Dr Who 5 Doctors, takes about 4 seconds on my Pioneer 515!!

Thanx again Johnsosn!!

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by Justin


I own one of these and to be honest its a waste of money! The Toshiba SD900e and Pioneer Dv939 are both better performers. For the budget you have, audition the Pioneer Dv646A and Marantz DV4100OSE. Or if you can stretch your budget, get the new Pioneer Dv747A:)

Hi Justin,

Thanx for your comments, as I haven't got progressive display yet, maybe its a bit much for the Sony (also most of my discs are PAL, not NTSC and progressive doesn't work on PAL yet??), but £650 seems a superb price for the Sony. (£750 multi-region)

Do the three above you mention have seamless layer changes on all discs?? And what are they like for CDR/RW and of course multi-region too. Could you give me some prices too for them?

Thnx!


Dave

[Dave Knight]

Justin,

The DV747A looks really nice but at £899.99 is just too much of the ££. I think £750 can be my max I can get past wifey!! But maybe these top-spec ones are too much for me? I have a v.good 5.1 Yamaha amp, 32" widescreen Philips (want a bigger one though) - full 5.1 sound with great speakers - think probably best to wait until I get a progressive display, as if I do get a progressive DVD player it won't look any better over RGB than non-progressive??

No layer change, multi-region, excellent picture are the main things - the Pioneer 646a looks good, and is well inside the budget at £399.99, in fact looking around at a few sites, Techtronics (sorry, don't mean to swear on the forums!!) have it @ £297+VAT (£350) - seems a good price, what price can you do this for forum-members? : )

I'm tempted by the 646a and if you can do a good price (and can confirm no layer-change) pls let me know!!

If still a layer change any others have none at all that you suggested? This is a major prob with DVDs I think, you're watching a cool movie, then middle of the scene, pause, wait 1-2 seconds, then continues - pants or what!!! Worse when you're showing someone DVD and they say "doesn't do that on VHS!"

Thnx Justin and Johnsosn for your input so far!!


Dave

[johnsosn]

The 9000es doesn't have completely seemless change.However it's very good .I havn't seen any players with seemless to be honest.(that doesn't mean there arn't any)
Superbit disks on this player are completely seemless.They may be on others too,I don't know.Maybe superbit don't have layers!

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by johnsosn
The 9000es doesn't have completely seemless change.However it's very good .I havn't seen any players with seemless to be honest.(that doesn't mean there arn't any)
Superbit disks on this player are completely seemless.They may be on others too,I don't know.Maybe superbit don't have layers!

Thnx Johnsosn, but that rules out the 9000es then, Sony/Columbia seem to put their layer changes in good places so you don't notice them (many haven't noticed even on my poor Pioneer 515) .. so the Superbit disks are probably the same - they're definitely dual-layer Superbit disks, just well-placed layer changes which most companies don't seem to bother about : (

So Justin / anyone else.. any-layer less ones?

[zubeir]

Save your money, What does 1 second matter on layer change. Jeez

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by zubeir
Save your money, What does 1 second matter on layer change. Jeez

Well thankyou aubier for your constructive and well thoughout input..

[cough]

I need to upgrade my own DVD player (due to my current one slowly dying on me!!) so would like one without a layer change.

Some of the discs I have judder and have dodgy sound due to the data stream being interrupted - I think its pretty p*$s poor that with the technology we have its not standard to have a small bit of RAM for a buffer in every player!!

Just been round to my bro-in-laws, they have a Wharfedale 750 - *that* has seamless layer changes - how?! Its a budget Tesco player!! We just watched a few discs, all of them perfect.. didn't notice any layer changes at all, even on discs which are quite obvious normally!!

Shame it doesn't play all discs, and only has 1 scart, if Wharfedale did a mid or high-end player, that'd be great I'm sure..

So Justin and Johnsosn, thnx for your input so far - hope to hear back from you soon Justin.

Ta!!

[Paul Buglass]

Dave,

The original Wharfedale 750 was always very good at layer changes and while I had one I didn't notice a single LC.

After I swapped it for a 750S model I noticed them, but only very briefly on some discs. The Dansai 852 I have just bought from Tescos performs similarly to the 750S with just a brief 1/2 second or less pause.

It does make you wonder how one of the cheapest players (at the time) could have such a good LC while those costing many times more couldn't manage it.

Let us know which player you decide on and how you like it when you get it.

Best wishes

/Paul B, York, UK.

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by Justin


I own one of these and to be honest its a waste of money! The Toshiba SD900e and Pioneer Dv939 are both better performers.

Are you on some sort of hefty commission from Toshiba and Pioneer or something. ;) :D

[Bapapapa]

If you want a seamless layer change then use a HTPC. AFAIK, there isn't *any* DVD player with a zero second layerchange.

I agree with zubier, too.

[Ron Hill]

The 646A is a great player but it does have a noticeable layer change. The thing with layer changes is that not only does the laser have to refocus (instantanious i'd imagine), the disk head has to track back to the other edge of the disc. Both layers seem to be recorded in the same direction. I only figured this the other day when using my ne LA95 portable. The layer change is quick but you can hear the drive track accross to the start position of the second layer. The people who designed the DVD standard should've insisted that alternate layers play in the opposite direction to each other then the drive head wouldn't have to move to implement the change. The process would then have been as follows.
Layer 1 - traverse edge a to edge b.
refocus
Layer 2 - traverse edge b to edge a.

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by Bapapapa
If you want a seamless layer change then use a HTPC. AFAIK, there isn't *any* DVD player with a zero second layerchange.

I agree with zubier, too.

Bapapapa - thanks for your comments, yeah my PC has no layer change (presume thats what you mean by a HTPC??) so thought it shouldn't be too hard to reproduce on a hifi DVD player?!

Paul - yes I can't believe the Wharfie 750 can have seamless layer changes but models costing 500+, even 1000+ don't have 'em!!

The best I've found now is the Denon DVD 2800 which has 4mb buffer memory which is supposed to *almost* completely eliminate the pause in some discs, and completely in other discs. Its progressive and v.nice performer..

Avland have the Denon for £649 and I've just spoken to them and its already PAL progressive (though unofficial!), and region free, latest firmware and they have it hooked up to a plasma screen in the shop .. have to go see it!! Wallet overload!! I'll go there with a couple of obvious discs (5 drs, you've got mail, and the worst I have, R2 Cliffhanger SE)

Just had an Email from Justin, can do the Pioneer 646 for £340 inc shipping. Thanx Ron - Pioneer 646 still has layer change so I think Denon will be getting my business - I'll go see it in action on Wednesday and report back. Awaiting to hear from Justin from Upgrade Heaven to see if they can do me a Denon for same price.

Appreciate all the comments so far. Thanx.

[Paul Buglass]

One of the worst layer change offenders I've come across recently has to be "What lies Beneath". The change is slap bang in the mifddle of a scene where Michelle Pfeiffer and her neighbour are having a quiet chat in the garden. No attempt to hide it during a scene change or fade to black like some well authored DVDs. Any player with even a slight pause is going to show that LC up. Get a copy for your testing if you can.

Cheers

/Paul B, York, UK.

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by Paul Buglass
One of the worst layer change offenders I've come across recently has to be "What lies Beneath". The change is slap bang in the mifddle of a scene where Michelle Pfeiffer and her neighbour are having a quiet chat in the garden. No attempt to hide it during a scene change or fade to black like some well authored DVDs. Any player with even a slight pause is going to show that LC up. Get a copy for your testing if you can.

Cheers

/Paul B, York, UK.

Thnx Paul, I forgot about that disc -- I rented it the other week and yeah the layer change is pretty p!$s poor! I mean, how difficult is it to author a reasonable layer change for the 95% of players that can't handle it gracefully?

Thanx, as I'm going Wednesday I'll grab it from the video shop on the way, only a couple of quid to rent again and so I've then got 4 discs to try - all play fine on my DVD ROM thru Power DVD, lets see how the Denon handles 'em!..

Do me a favour Paul, can you get the clock counter time of where the layer change is pls, so I don't need to search for it on Wednesday. Cheers.

[Paul Buglass]

Chapter 12, 54 minutes and 18 seconds mate. Good luck.

Cheers

/Paul B, York, UK.

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by Paul Buglass
Chapter 12, 54 minutes and 18 seconds mate. Good luck.

Cheers

/Paul B, York, UK.

Thnx, I'll go armed with 4 discs now, and hopefully a new DVD player when I come back if all goes well...! I'll just try and not like the Plasma screen too much, keep telling myself I can't afford it!!

Cheers!


Dave

[Justin]

Originally posted by robbiejm


Are you on some sort of hefty commission from Toshiba and Pioneer or something. ;) :D

Yeah right! Just speaking form experiance - Compared to my 4 year old import Sony DVPS7700 the 9000 was a big letdown, and the tosh9000 outperforms it for picture, but, its a tosh and spends about 3 seconds on most layer changes! The Pioneers a better cd player, but is a bit dated and clunky.

Panasonics usually have the best layer changes, followed by the sonys. Buy I`ve yet to see a single player that hardly stutters or pauses for any length of time...

In my experiance the Sony DVPS715 and 7700 were the least obvious, and sony DVPS735 / toshiba SD210 / pioneer 515 / 717 the worst:)

[Phill]

Originally posted by Ron Hill
The 646A is a great player but it does have a noticeable layer change. The thing with layer changes is that not only does the laser have to refocus (instantanious i'd imagine), the disk head has to track back to the other edge of the disc. Both layers seem to be recorded in the same direction. I only figured this the other day when using my ne LA95 portable. The layer change is quick but you can hear the drive track accross to the start position of the second layer. The people who designed the DVD standard should've insisted that alternate layers play in the opposite direction to each other then the drive head wouldn't have to move to implement the change. The process would then have been as follows.
Layer 1 - traverse edge a to edge b.
refocus
Layer 2 - traverse edge b to edge a.

The DVD format allows for both same spiral and reverse spiral. There are discs of both type in circulation. They're refered to as reverse spiral dual layer disks


Disk formats on IMDB (http://us.imdb.com/Sections/DVDs/DiscFormats/)

[Mr Furious]

I agree with the above poster about the Wharfedale 750 - the machine has NO apparent pause at the layer change - which is why I found the 1.7second change of the Pioneer 444k to be too much!

I'm now trying to find a budget to mid-range player (up to around £300) with a minimal layer change. I could accept a brief pause, but the Pioneer 444 was too long!

If Panasonics have better changes, does it apply to their budget to mid-range models as well?

[Crash]

Just Fyi .....
My Hitachi DVP-250E which is over two years old has virtually no layer change on most discs and only very occasionally (scene dependant) do I see anything at all.
I think I would be tempted to spend my money on features that define a quality player rather than a slight once a disc annoyance.

[Ron Hill]

Originally posted by Phill


The DVD format allows for both same spiral and reverse spiral. There are discs of both type in circulation. They're refered to as reverse spiral dual layer disks


Disk formats on IMDB (http://us.imdb.com/Sections/DVDs/DiscFormats/)

Fascinating Phill. Do you know of any releases that are reverse spiral? I'd like to try one on my LA95 to see what sort of job it makes of the layer change when all that's required is a refocus.

[Ron Hill]

Doh! Just checked that disc format link. Disregard last post.

Slaps head with large brick. THWACK! oooouccchhhhhh.

[Ron Hill]

Thinking a bit about layer change performance it would be logical that a DL disc would have a longer layer change than a RSDL disc. Also, an optimal RSDL disc should begin the second layer at the same physical head position as the first layer ends. Without knowing what format the disc you are watching is it's going to be very difficult to know wether the player is good at layer changes or not.

I note from the a quick glance at that format page on IMDB that Titan AE region 1 is a SS-RSDL disc. IIRC from numerous watchings of this film the layer change on this disc is very very quick which would suggest a well optimized change.

I tell ye, I learn something new here all the time. :)

[Ridcully]

Dave,

What was your decision in the end as I am currently looking to replace my player and had similar specs, particularly layer change wise

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by Ridcully
Dave,

What was your decision in the end as I am currently looking to replace my player and had similar specs, particularly layer change wise

Work got in the way (had to go in Wednesday afternoon) : ( so I'm going tomorrow - I've got the day off so they can't do anything.. I'll post as soon as I come back from Coventry (I'm in Brum) with my results from tests with the discs and the Denon 2800 - Justin from Upgrade Heaven on an email to me said he has seen one and not much different to normal players.. well I'll find out 2morrow! Progressive is the way I want to go too so it'll be killing 2 birds with one stone hopefully!!

Cheers,


Dave

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by Dave Knight


Work got in the way (had to go in Wednesday afternoon) : ( so I'm going tomorrow - I've got the day off so they can't do anything.. I'll post as soon as I come back from Coventry (I'm in Brum) with my results from tests with the discs and the Denon 2800 - Justin from Upgrade Heaven on an email to me said he has seen one and not much different to normal players.. well I'll find out 2morrow! Progressive is the way I want to go too so it'll be killing 2 birds with one stone hopefully!!

Cheers,


Dave

OK - I'm back now and have fully tested (and placed an order) for the Denon 2800.. so..

Took 4 discs, the following:

Licence to Kill R2 - Ch23 91:53 - WORST layer change ever, baddie is moving and bam, layer change..
Cliffhanger SE R4 (uncut unlike R2) - Ch08 81:34 not quite as bad as Licence to Kill but nearly, its not mid-scene but rousing music is paused for a few seconds and you lose the ambience!
What Lies Beneath R2 - Ch12 54:18 - poor layer change in mid-conversation
You've Got Mail R4 - Ch22/23 75:15 - poor layer change in mid-conversation

On my Pioneer 515 all four discs were quite noticeable, all were fine on my DVD ROM SCSI, but what about the Denon 2800. Perfect!! All four discs, what layer change?? No pause at all, just plays as one continual stream, Licence to Kill is the worst as on my Pioneer the guy moves, pauses for a second, then carries on - perfect on the Denon 2800, so placed an order then and there!!

It is modded so multi-region, PAL and NTSC progressive, was hooked up to a massive projector in one of their demo rooms, and wow did it look amazing. Progressive TV/projector is the next major purchase sometime next year!!

So there are only two players I now know of which have seamless layer changes, the £180 Wharfedale 750 and the £750 Denon 2800 (£650 if bought on the internet site)..

Details of AV Centre (I'm not on commision honest but do tell 'em I sent you as they might give me a discount or somat!!) are:
http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/dvd2800/

AVLAND
Hi-Fi Excellence Ltd / AV Land Ltd
163 Spon St
Coventry
England
CV1 3BB

024 7622 8322
9.30-5.00 Mon-Fri
Sales@avland.co.uk

They have a 'gold' one in stock now, but blacks are in next week. I have ordered the black to go with the rest of the kit, and to keep wifey happy!!

So cheers to all who have contributed to the thread - let me know if you have any questions, I'll be getting the player Wednesday or Thursday next week (just in time for all those lovely new Xmas discs!!)

Be seeing you,


Dave

[The Pink Flamingo]

Am I missing something here? Why didn't you save yourself a few hundred spondoolics and buy the Wharfedale? Snobbery gone mad?? :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: At least wifey would be happy....


TPF

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by The Pink Flamingo
Am I missing something here? Why didn't you save yourself a few hundred spondoolics and buy the Wharfedale? Snobbery gone mad?? :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: At least wifey would be happy....


TPF

Nah, you can't buy the Wharfie 750 anymore, also it has trouble playing certain discs as it hasn't got enough memory in the player. Firmware updates won't sort this.. also I want a progressive display next year so this is then ready.. wifey is happy as she can play her discs much better now too!

[The Pink Flamingo]

Well, if you're happy and wifey's happy, then so am I ,m8! And, I suspect, so is Avland!! :D


TPF

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by The Pink Flamingo
Well, if you're happy and wifey's happy, then so am I ,m8! And, I suspect, so is Avland!! :D


TPF

Everyone's happy!! Thats the way we like it!!

Well AV Land were not pushy at all, they left me to 'play' with the DVD and ensure I was happy with it but yes I'm sure they are happy with the purchase too !

Cheers!


Dave

[robbiejm]

I'm just curious if all Denon players have a seamless layer change?

There's the DVD-1000 (£250-£300) and the combined DVD AV reciever ADV-700 (£700-£800).

If so, it seems weird that Denon can do it but the other manufacturers can't manage it. :rolleyes:

Also, what about the Arcam DV-88, anybody here got one of those?

[Dave Knight]

Originally posted by robbiejm
I'm just curious if all Denon players have a seamless layer change?

There's the DVD-1000 (£250-£300) and the combined DVD AV reciever ADV-700 (£700-£800).

If so, it seems weird that Denon can do it but the other manufacturers can't manage it. :rolleyes:

Also, what about the Arcam DV-88, anybody here got one of those?

Well when I rang Arcam a week or so ago, they tried to convince me that no manufacturer did this 'no layer change' thing and their players (£1600) was the best quality I could get.. so I wouldn't hold out too much hope on that as that was their sales guys.

Looking at the Denon website (.com not co.uk as .co.uk doesn't have DVD players on there!!) there are a couple of Denon's that *do* have memory in them.. the 800 has 3mb rather than 4mb in it..

http://www.denon.com/catalog/products.asp?l=1&c=4

DVD 2800 -
• 2X DVD read speed; 4X CD/CD-R/CD-RW read speed; with 4MB drive buffer memory

DVD 800 -
* 3MB Memory Buffer to decrease or eliminate layer change pauses or pickup dropout

So the Denon 800 is £260 multi-region at avland.co.uk, I'd get a demo to make sure the speed of the drive / layer changes are similar to the 2800.. I'm sure they will be and if you use test discs like the ones I got, you can be sure! Also check out the combo to see what is in there.. good luck!!

[robbiejm]

Cheers for the info, my parents are after a player soon so I might have to recommend a Denon. :)