View Full Version : Dell - resisting allowing us to return our faulty laptops
kiran_mk2
17-08-2005, 15:04
We ordered 3 Inspiron 6000 laptops from Dell. After they arrived, we found faults with 2 of them (one had a blue down the screen and the other crashed repeatidly when installing software). We decided to simply return them and get better spec'd ones from somewhere else (that doesn't rip you off for a warranty) and thought that because we'd bought them through our university as they are for use in our office. This is all within 14 days of receipt, but when we phoned them up they seem determined that we're to get replacements. Unfortunately for them, we haven't yet paid our invoice, so at the moment we've got 3 faulty laptops that we haven't paid for.
Does anyone have any advise on how to get Dell to come and collect these laptops?
You don't really have any grounds to return them I'm afraid. You entered in to a contract with Dell to buy them and unless Dell breach their side of the contract you cannot just cancel it. The laptops being faulty isn't classed as a breach of contract, Dell will replace them with identical models so you have not lost out on anything other than a bit of time sorting the problem out...
Surely Dell contracted to supply working laptops?
Since they didn't, they are in breach of that contract.
I would simply write to Dell and thell them so and that you are cancelling the contract. How they pick them up is up to them.
Make sure that the accounts department don't accidentally pay the invoice.
Have you tried mailing UKI_Customer_Complaints@dell.com?
Dell really should't be arguing over a refund, but then again if I was a company I would rather send a replacement as it sounds you just got unlucky.
kiran_mk2
17-08-2005, 17:42
Yep -pretty much what we've said - we're not paying the invoice. We've told Dell this and told them to collect the laptops. Presume the distance-selling regs still apply even if they weren't faulty. These computers clearly aren't "fit for the purpose".
I'm just glad the invoice hasn't been paid as Dell could drag this out for months.
I have a feeling the Distance Selling regulations only apply to individual consumers, not businesses.
Yep, distance selling regs only apply to individual consumers, not businesses.
Dell are obliged to provide working laptops, however they have promised to replace the faulty ones with working ones, so they are fulfilling that obligation. Dell are contracted to provide laptops, you are provided to pay for them. If Dell do take these back it will be as a gesture of goodwill, they aren't contractually obliged to imo.
You can't just change your mind after making a purchase - Dell are providing the laptops you have committed to buying from them. Other than a slight delay while the faulty ones are returned nothing has changed from when you make the decision to make the purchase.
Yep, distance selling regs only apply to individual consumers, not businesses.
Dell are obliged to provide working laptops, however they have promised to replace the faulty ones with working ones, so they are fulfilling that obligation. Dell are contracted to provide laptops, you are provided to pay for them. If Dell do take these back it will be as a gesture of goodwill, they aren't contractually obliged to imo.
You can't just change your mind after making a purchase - Dell are providing the laptops you have committed to buying from them. Other than a slight delay while the faulty ones are returned nothing has changed from when you make the decision to make the purchase.
No!
Dell were contracted to supply three working laptops.
The failed to do that, thus they are in breach of contract and the buyer is entitled to back out.
bambi2002
18-08-2005, 13:01
No!
Dell were contracted to supply three working laptops.
The failed to do that, thus they are in breach of contract and the buyer is entitled to back out.
You've no idea what Dell did or did not contract to do, as this is a B2B transaction its very unlikely that some non working laptops means that the contract is void, I'd expect Dell to have clauses stating that they can replace faulty goods (in a resaonable time frame) and that you can't cancel an order because of this.
A consumer may be able to argue differently on the basis of various bits of consumer legislation, but this isn't the scenario here.
No!
Dell were contracted to supply three working laptops.
The failed to do that, thus they are in breach of contract and the buyer is entitled to back out.
Having a fault with an electronic item is not classed as a breach of the contract I'm afraid, as long as Dell are capable for sorting the problem out. Dell will collect the faulty ones and replace with working ones, so the contract has still been fulfilled. As Bambi2002 says, there will almost certainly be a clause in the contract saying if faulty goods are delivered they will be replaced within a reasonable time frame (generally classed in retail as 28 days from order date).
It is widely accepted that however good your manaufacturing process is, electronic components do not work 100% of the time so unless Dell are unable to fulfil the order within 28 days of it being placed then the contract is still perfectly valid. As long as Dell supply exaclty what the OP ordered he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Having a fault with an electronic item is not classed as a breach of the contract I'm afraid, as long as Dell are capable for sorting the problem out. Dell will collect the faulty ones and replace with working ones, so the contract has still been fulfilled. As Bambi2002 says, there will almost certainly be a clause in the contract saying if faulty goods are delivered they will be replaced within a reasonable time frame (generally classed in retail as 28 days from order date).
Having had actual, real life experience of this, I can state quite catagorically that you're wrong.
We had a supplier who tried to pull that, but, because a 'substantial proportion' of the goods were faulty, we were able to win the case.
IIRC, the judge accepted our argument that supplying a significant proportion of the order faulty meant we could not have confidence in the supplier.
It is widely accepted that however good your manaufacturing process is, electronic components do not work 100% of the time
Ever heard of testing?
Err, yes thanks no need for lowering yourself to sarcasm in a simple debate is there? :cuckoo:
I'm sure the goods tested fine when they left Dell's factory as they test every unit that is shipped, however there's another two or three days sitting in courier's vans, warehouses and even a ferry before they arrive with the customer - anything could happen to the consignment during that time. I would of thought that would of been fairly obvious though...
You simply cannot compare two different cases as they are completely different - different supplier, different product, different T&Cs, the list is endless, so to 'categorically' tell me I am wrong is utter tripe. If Dell have a clause in the T&Cs stating that faulty goods will be replaced, and the OP has agreed to those T&Cs (which he has by purchasing) then he has no right to a refund. It it was a home transaction he would have 7 days to reject them for any reason under the DSR, however business transactions hinge purely on the T&cs applicable to the transaction
Err, yes thanks no need for lowering yourself to sarcasm in a simple debate is there?
Oh, do grow up.
It was a perfectly fair comment.
You made a reference to the quality of the manufacturing process, but that should be irrelevant if goods are correctly tested. So my comment was perfectly reasonable.
I'm sure the goods tested fine when they left Dell's factory
How can you be sure?
Were you there?
It doesn't sound as if they were very well tested to me.
however there's another two or three days sitting in courier's vans, warehouses and even a ferry before they arrive with the customerWell, if they can't survice three days in a van, they certainly should go back.
They're laptops. If they're properly packed, they should be able to take a bit of rough handling.
You simply cannot compare two different cases as they are completely different - different supplier, different product, different T&Cs
How do you know that they were different suppliers, different T&C's?
You seem to be very certain about a lot of things that you can know nothing about.
so to 'categorically' tell me I am wrong is utter tripe.
Straight back at you.
You made an unqualified statement that the OP had no case.
You could not possibly have known all the variables, so the fact that I know of at least one contrary case means that I can catagorically state that your unqualified assertion was wrong.
If Dell have a clause in the T&Cs stating that faulty goods will be replaced, and the OP has agreed to those T&Cs (which he has by purchasing) then he has no right to a refund.
Wrong!
Ever here of "unfair terms and conditions?".
Also, as I explained, if Dell were stupid enough to take the case to court, and the OP could persuade the judge that because 66% of the shipment were faulty they could not have confidence in Dell's quality control and/or manufacturing processes, there is a good chance that Dell would (deservedly) fail.
correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the sale of goods act actually state that if the item is faulty then you can return for a full refund?
Oh, do grow up.
It was a perfectly fair comment.
You made a reference to the quality of the manufacturing process, but that should be irrelevant if goods are correctly tested. So my comment was perfectly reasonable.
Bring up testing may have been a relevant point, however asking if someone has ever heard of it when they blatantly have is just childish. Electrical components can fail at any point, not just in the factory you know ;) My point was obviously that even if you manufacture items that roll of the production line at 100% they could still fail a day, or even an hour later due to the sensitivity of electrical components.
How can you be sure?
Were you there?
It doesn't sound as if they were very well tested to me.
Every unit Dell ship is tested first, that is fact, it’s part of the process every unit they build goes through. I somehow doubt that they said “oh look, these two have failed, lets ship them anyway ha ha”.
Well, if they can't survice three days in a van, they certainly should go back.
They're laptops. If they're properly packed, they should be able to take a bit of rough handling.
It depends what happens to them, I’ve bought 100+ systems off Dell in the last year and only one has arrived faulty, and that was due to what must have been a fairly large impact on the corner of the box. They are packaged adequately but couriers aren’t the carefullest of people.
How do you know that they were different suppliers, different T&C's?
You seem to be very certain about a lot of things that you can know nothing about.
Because from the way you seem so sure about everything I have no doubts if it was Dell you wouldn’t of hesitated to say so.
Wrong!
Ever here of "unfair terms and conditions?".
Also, as I explained, if Dell were stupid enough to take the case to court, and the OP could persuade the judge that because 66% of the shipment were faulty they could not have confidence in Dell's quality control and/or manufacturing processes, there is a good chance that Dell would (deservedly) fail.
Yes thanks, as I work in debt collection and contractual law I am somewhat familiar with that. However there would be nothing what so ever unfair about that clause. Business transactions aren’t covered by the DSR and you can’t just cancel your contract at any point. Two faulty laptops would certainly not justify a loss of confidence in Dell’s quality control, could just be a batch of faulty components or anything. To justify a loss of confidence you need to prove fault of the company in question over a period of time, not just in one instance. As long as Dell replaced them with working models within a reasonable time frame the case would be laughed out of court.
The main point is, OP asked Dell to supply 3 laptops within 28 days, and Dell will fulfil that. OP has not lost out on anything, incurred any costs, or will ultimately ended up with goods other than what he asked for. You cannot just change your mind after you have entered in to a contract.
correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the sale of goods act actually state that if the item is faulty then you can return for a full refund?
For consumers yes, not for business transactions :)
correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the sale of goods act actually state that if the item is faulty then you can return for a full refund?
The sale of goods act only applies between a business and a private individual.
In this case, if Dell were stupid enough to persue the matter, it would hinge on other things such as the T&C's applicable, and whether a judge held that the T&C's were not "unfair".
Bring up testing may have been a relevant point, however asking if someone has ever heard of it when they blatantly have is just childish. Not at all. You ignored it in your response.
they could still fail a day, or even an hour later due to the sensitivity of electrical components.
Ever heard of soak testing?
Every unit Dell ship is tested first, that is fact, it’s part of the process every unit they build goes through. I somehow doubt that they said “oh look, these two have failed, lets ship them anyway ha ha”. Indeed, never put down to malevalence what can just as easily be explained by incompetance.
Because from the way you seem so sure about everything I have no doubts if it was Dell you wouldn’t of hesitated to say so. Once again, this time in English, please :)
Yes thanks, as I work in debt collection
Ahh, then you must be reliable ;)
As long as Dell replaced them with working models within a reasonable time frame the case would be laughed out of court. Strangely enough, that is just what our supplier confidently told us. "You'll be laughed out of court", he said.
With costs, I don't think he was doing a lot of laughing.
The main point is, OP asked Dell to supply 3 laptops within 28 days
Yet again, you seem to be party to knowledge the provenance of which is unclear.
nowhere does the OP say he asked Dell to supply anything in 28 days.
and Dell will fulfil that.
Yet again, special knowledge and an ability to forsee the future.
OP has not lost out on anything, incurred any costs,
Of course he has. The time spent in attempting to install the software that crashed the machines, for one thing.
Time is money, you know.
You cannot just change your mind after you have entered in to a contract.He didn't just change his mind. Dell supplied faulty goods.
Not at all. You ignored it in your response.
They could still fail a day, or even an hour later due to the sensitivity of electrical components.
I didn’t ignore anything, I acknowledged that Dell do test systems, but made the point the components could fail once testing has finished. Soak testing makes no difference, components can fail at any point.
Once again, this time in English, please
Nothing wrong with the construction of that sentence, let me try and simply if for you then! You are clearly very confident of the situation, if you supplier had been Dell I don’t doubt you would of made that point in your initial post to back your argument up further.
Ahh, then you must be reliable
No more or less reliable than the next person, but certainly experienced in this field.
Yet again, you seem to be party to knowledge the provenance of which is unclear.
nowhere does the OP say he asked Dell to supply anything in 28 days.
As I explained in an earlier post (do keep up!) trading law states that orders should be fulfilled within 28 days of order date. If they are not then the buyer has the right to withdraw from the contract due to it not being a reasonable time frame. Therefore Dell have 28 days to supply working laptops before the OP gains the right to back out of the contract.
He didn't just change his mind. Dell supplied faulty goods.
Yes, but Dell have said they will supply working units. It’s really quite simple there is just no breach of contract yet. Dell’s contractual obligation is to supply 3 laptops within 28 days. They have said they will do this. It is irrelevant to the contract that the first laptops were faulty, as long as Dell stick within their original contractual obligations.
He has just changed his mind, Dell have promised to deliver working goods as requested by the OP within the stipulated time frame, but the OP has now decided he doesn’t want them. That is generally classed as changing your mind. Anyway I’m bored at work so I’m gonna give trading standards a buzz and see what their take on the situation is :)
Well I've had a chat with a TS Officer and he agreed completely with my point of view and confirmed the following points:
1) The buyer is still contractually obliged to accept the laptops as long as Dell deliver working units within 28 days from date of order, as there has been no breach of contract at this point.
2) DSR do not apply as it's business to business, and the only way the contract can be cancelled is if either party are in breach, or by mutual agreement.
3) 'Loss of confidence' can only be claimed if faulty goods are delivered at least two or three times consecutively, or if a large percentage of a bulk delivery (ie 100+ units) are faulty.
4) Dell may still offer a refund as it's costly and time consuming to pursue these matters, but if they do so it will purely in the interests of customer services and taking the easy route, they are definitely not contractually obliged to do so.
I'm bored of repeating myself now, so if you want to continue to argue you'd be better off doing so with Trading Standards, I can happily give you the name and number of the gentleman I spoke to :)
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