View Full Version : AppleMacs - wot do u reckon??
Ferdy147
27-07-2005, 19:18
Always used a PC and have my laptop and desktop at home which seem to suffice. Was thinking of buying a new computer - not cos I need one but just to get someting more upto date. Was wondering whether there was any benefit in having an applemac. Everyones always raving on about them.
Are they really much better than a PC, what are the pros and cons have owning one??
It's really personal preference as to which is best.
Despite a technical issue i had with my iMac G5 i still think personally they're nicer, easier to use, more productive and generally less hassle to use over a PC. I realise i'm in a minority, especially on these forums.
Best advice is to try and test run one. Go into a specialist store and have a muck about. Incredibly easy to use with some great features if you have the latest OS 'Tiger'
I guess really it depends on what you intend to use it for. If it's gaming, forget it and go elsewhere, but anything else a Mac can do just as well as a PC.
NicolaUK
27-07-2005, 20:08
I wouldn't bother for gaming but for everything else they're :thumbs:
Very intuitive compared to PCs, no virus/spyware hassle.
What would you use it for?
Best bet is to go to an Apple Store if you can to have a play :)
fivebyfive
27-07-2005, 20:39
Avoid OS9 and lower, it's a joke of an OS
As said it really depends what you want to do. They're great for stuff like browsing the net and work (although if you get your software through employers licensing you could be in trouble).
What do you mean by up to date?
powermac
27-07-2005, 21:37
wait for the mactels then you can dual boot os x and xp.
Ferdy147
27-07-2005, 21:39
I mainly use my laptop which is connected wirelessly to my router upstairs. The laptop i bought 2 years ago, its a systemax one, pentium 4-2.8ghz, 512mb, 60gbhd etc. My desktop which i dont use much anymore i think is an old duron 1.4ghz. I'm not a gamer, I just mess around on the internet, photoediting with adobe, office etc etc. Have used my laptop to do some video editing with adobe premiere - even though the end result was quite good, found it a but cumbersome and slow. Since my laptop was 2 years old was wondering whether to get a new leaner/meaner one but after looking around wasn't convinced that i'd do much extra with a new one. Heard apple macs were good for video editing and was just considering whether it'd be worth having one of them knocking around. To be honest just haven't bought a new toy in ages - need to find an excuse to convince me it makes perfect sense to blow some more money!
Ferdy - everything you describe can be done very well on a Mac. iMovie (http://www.apple.com/ilife/imovie/) is a basic (but highly capable) video-editing package, whilst Final Cut Pro (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/) is widely recognised to be superior to Adobe Premiere. If you are serious about video, then go for the PowerBook rather than the iBook for laptop, and consider an iMac or PowerMac G5 for desktop use (the Mini won't cut it, except for iMovie).
As for everyday use - Office:Mac is every bit as good as its Windows counterpart; Photoshop is great on the Mac; there are no shortage of good web browsers (Safari, Firefox, Omniweb) and mail clients (Apple Mail, MS Entourage). I personally find the Mac OS a much more pleasant and productive environment to work in than Windows XP, but obviously views differ. I also love iPhoto, but Google's Picasa2 is getting close.
I guess I am saying that you shouldn't worry about being able to 'do' what you describe, so just go to an Apple Store, John Lewis etc and try one out.
home_bas
27-07-2005, 22:39
Love my Mac - just had an awful day having to install/uninstall software on a new XP laptop at work, just made me realise how lucky I am to have a Mac at home - it just works!!!
[HB]RugRat
27-07-2005, 22:49
I use a PC for gaming and have just bought mysel...errr the missus an iBook for everything else.
Great OS, great machines.
... I'm not a gamer, I just mess around on the internet, photoediting with adobe, office etc etc. Have used my laptop to do some video editing with adobe premiere - even though the end result was quite good, found it a but cumbersome and slow. ... Heard apple macs were good for video editing and was just considering whether it'd be worth having one of them knocking around. To be honest just haven't bought a new toy in ages - need to find an excuse to convince me it makes perfect sense to blow some more money!
Sounds exactly like me. I did what you're contemplating 18 months ago when the iBook G3 was in the Bargain forum.
I didn't have a use for it, just wanted to play with an Apple. As it happened I didn't open the box for months (no time) and when I did I still didn't have a use. I picked up a copy of iLife 04 and played with the photo & movie apps. iPhoto wasn't impressive after an old Photoshop and iMovie was very intuitive and I found a reason to get my (Bargain forum) camcorder out to edit/make a DVD. This is incredibly easy with the iBook and iMovie via firewire. 04 can't handle widescreen which my later movies are recorded as so it's off to 05 to handle that BUT the G3 doesn't appear to have the horsepower to render the DVD so I may have a problem there ...
However I have to say I am more than impressed by the iBook. Graphics are in another league compared to PCs. Even the desktop is impressive. Playback of anything vaguely movie is astounding. The iBook is so quiet it could be all solid state! OS X is in another league when it comes to hard drive caching - I'm never aware of a delay past the inital app load.
The inbuilt apps are pretty good but I use Firefox as it's on the PC and I'm having a few problems networking to the PC (including not having the time to get stuck into sorting it out). Final Cut Expresss seems a necessary buy and better than iLife 05.
If you buy a notebook then expect to buy another external HDD as it'll need to be Mac formatted if you want to save movies to it for editing (approx an hour's DVI recordings take up about half my 30Gb HDD).
You might want to go for more horsepower via a desktop model if you don't need a notebook and it's probably better value for money anyway.
I certainly don't regret it and wish I could find an excuse/the funds to buy something more powerful ... ;) oh and the time to actually play around with it!
The thing with Macs is that they just work. Simple as that.
My girlfriend got her iBook at the turn of the year, and it has been perfect. She uses it constantly, mostly web access, but she also wrote her dissertation on it, and has been archiving all my digital photos on it. It has never crashed, not once. She generally has it on for 5+ hours a day, connected via wireless to my router, surfing away.
For peripherals, it has been brilliant. My Epson printer, which will not work without a driver install on XP, plugged in and printed immediately. Same with my Sony camera, my HP scanner, and my windows keyboard and mouse.
The only downside is gaming, but its not like there aren't any games for the Mac, Doom 3, Halo etc are out now. The releases just take a little while to come down the pipe. All the Macs have dedicated video cards of some description, which can handle standard 3D gaming, albeit not at "Bitchin Fast" levels. There is also a reasonably busy Mac gaming industry, I used to have hundreds of games for my old Performa Power Mac (1994 baby!).
So to sum up, if you want a straightforward machine that doesn't crash, doesn't get viruses, is intuitive to use, impeccably well built, looks great, and runs quiet and cool, get a Mac.
I am so tempted to switch to Apple, again for the lack of hassle compaired to Windows. They look way nicer than PCs too. Expense is the only factor holding me back, I would go for a iMac G5 right now if I could afford it. :)
Another positive shout here :wave:
I was mainly a Windows user up to about 2 years ago when I took the plunge and bought a Powermac G5 dual 2GHZ totally and utterly blind - never used one before in my life but had heard great things, especially about the video/DVD editing software that was available. I shelled out over £2500 in one blind hit and was as nervous as hell doing it. Once I unpacked the beast, plugged it all in and fired it up, all was fine. I love OSX, easy to get into, fast, just has a quality feel to it. I was finding my way around with no trouble at all and I would say it only took me a few days to become accustomed to the OS. I was even networked up to my 2 Win PC's within a few minutes - no problems. I liked it so much I stuck a few more gigs of RAM into it and even went on to buy Mrs Reefer a nice, shiny new iMac G5 20", all tooled up. Lovely. She loves it too.
Went on to buy the complete suite of apps from Apple - Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, etc and have not looked back since.
I still have my Win PC's but rarely turn them on, as I can do pretty much everything on the Mac now. I am even running Win XP Pro on Virtual PC, on my Mac. It runs OK but nowhere near as well as on a PC.
For me, it is about quality with the Mac - everything just feels better and the software I use is a lot nicer to actually use.
One thing I really like in OSX - not having to uninstall stuff, just drag it to the recycle bin and it is gone!
I have the PowerMac setup as a server for my Xbox media centre for video streaming, MP3's, etc. Works a treat!
Another positive shout here for the Mac!
PCs are good at certain things (e.g. gaming), Macs are good for certain things (e.g. video editing, photo editing, dvd creation, creative stuff).
You can of course get Microsoft Office on both systems and this along with the fact that OS X is very 'compatible', e.g. documents created on a Mac will work on a PC and vice versa makes a Mac running OS X a great solution.
The BIGGEST thing, however, that should encourage you to get a Mac is this:
NO viruses
NO spyware
NO malware
Every day my PC chugs through AVG checking for viruses and Microsoft Spyware Checker looking for Spyware, which it regularly finds, and which I regularly have to figure out how to remove. Often I have to reinstall Windows, and often I have 'unexplained errors' which make it impossible to do what I want to do on my PC.
This does not happen on my Mac. I have not seen a virus or a piece of Spyware on my Mac in over 5 years. It just works. It lets me do what I want to do with it.
One final point - if you do buy a Mac, and decide it's not for you, they hold their value much better than PCs so you will most likely get a good deal for it on eBay :-)
powermac
28-07-2005, 09:51
I have 2 mac's, 1 pc & 2 xp laptops so i know what i'm saying.
XP is very easy to use and installing av & spyware software once is hardly an effort.
Mac's do everything apart from gaming just as good as PC's but NOT better.
If you can't even configure XP you shouldn't be let near ANY kind of computer!
they're great machines, but not completely without problems.
mate of mine bought a mini last week, he's a web/design freelancer and this was a second machine.
the install of tiger went fine but he made the mistake of installing with a unix filesystem instead of the extended mac one.
then he went to install adobe cs, oh dear. apparently adobe are incapable of understanding the meaning of case sensitive. the installer references filenames that simply dont exist in unix mode, to install cs you have to have installed tiger in mac extended format. not very useful if you want to run a web server on the box as well.
now thats not apples fault but if adobe are that amateur you can bet other developers are as well. After hours of attempted fixes he gave in and reinstalled tiger.
there are security holes, on a clean tiger install you can expect regular big updates and if they continue to gain market share it's only a matter of time until they start to get targeted.
generally software is a little harder to find and theres less variety to choose from, i.e. you can get skype but not the other free voip clients, I'm not aware of any poker clients for mac, opera and firefox are available but dont feel as nice as thei xp counterparts.
I find mine great for web, graphics, music but couldn't live without a pc as well. If I had to choose one it would be xp but thats purely down to games. In an ideal world you can have one of each. With apple moving to intel chips I'd love to see a box I could dual boot between OS X and XP but I doubt it will ever happen.
gravesend46
28-07-2005, 10:13
I love Macs as I work with them professionally and do all my freelance work on them. But I'll always have a PC as the amount of software (freeware, shareware, P2P) out there for various purposes is always available for Mac...
NicolaUK
28-07-2005, 10:24
Avoid OS9 and lower, it's a joke of an OS
As a long time mac user (15 yrs) I'd challenge that but anyone buying a mac now would be using Panther/Tiger so :shrug:
Like Reefer I also use my G5 iMac to stream to XBox Media Centre :D
wait for the mactels then you can dual boot os x and xp.
That's not going to happen.
As a long time mac user (15 yrs) I'd challenge that but anyone buying a mac now would be using Panther/Tiger so :shrug:
Like Reefer I also use my G5 iMac to stream to XBox Media Centre :D
:thumbs:
That's not going to happen.
Apple said they won't stop you doing it and triple boot (osx, linux, xp) has already been shown with the mactel dev boxes.
JohnMondo
28-07-2005, 12:00
Bought a Powermac G5 last year and it has been great even though I had to send it back twice to have the CPU's and the Motherboard replaced.
Don't believe all the hype, they do crash, but it is fantastic for what you get.
I have all my Pics on iPhoto, tunes on iTunes. I have recorded an album with Garageband and produced my first DVD with iMovie and iDVD and the results are excellent. It's also mega fast.
I now only use my PC laptop for website building and wireless internet browsing.
GreyJackal
28-07-2005, 12:15
The divide is no longer what it was and it really only comes down to preference these days. Apple's appreciation of external aesthetics has helped their appeal no end, but they're certainly not just fashionista accessories.
I AM a bit put off by the fact that you have to buy what are essentially service packs though. Always struck me as more than a little cheeky and mercenary. But that's the corporate side of things, and has nothing to do with the capability of the machines.
The lack of virii and malware is a bit of a red herring though - that's simply down to Windows being vastly more commonplace and an easier target.
My laptop's creaking a bit these days and I'm considering replacing it with an Apple. The main computer will probably always be a PC though as I'm into my games and I'm always upgrading bits of it as I go along. Ie I'm a geek :D In fact, getting an Apple ntoebook would complete the triumverate - my server's Fedora Linux :dork: :D
The lack of virii and malware is a bit of a red herring though - that's simply down to Windows being vastly more commonplace and an easier target.
It's not a red herring, because this can have a marked effect on your experience of using a PC compared to that of using a Mac!
It is an explanation for the situation though.
GreyJackal
28-07-2005, 12:21
Yeah but my point was it's not down to anything intrinsically Apple or OSX if you get my drift.
In an homage to the DVD Forums trend of ridiculous analogies, you wouldn't conclude that a Ferrari is intrinsically safer than a Ford based on road accident figures being lower. It's because there's less of 'em on the roads.
And no, I'm not ascribing the characteristics of Ferraris or Fords to either machines :D Or wanting to start an argument either.
I use a Mac at work and a PC at home. Having used both for nearly 10 years i'd say the Mac just about edges in front overall. The OS is just so much better than XP. If you install a program all the files go in one folder, install on a PC and god knows where its going to place some of the files. Plug n Play has been a reality for years, and the look and feel of the OS is just so much better looking and more intuative.
Also the reduced chance of virus's or adware is a bit plus point. I remember seeing a report which claimed only a small percentage of Mac users had problems with them, whereas most PC users have at some time had virus's or adware. At work we have a similar number of Macs to PCs (over 100 computers in the company overall) and i'd say 90% of the problems we have with virus's are on the PCs. Its a rarety to find one of the Macs with a virus or spyware, and the Macs tend to be used for browsing and downloading more than the PCs.
Having said that, aside from serious applications, the PC wins hands down for availabilty of software (althought the Mac is getting better) and especially games. Its also more customisable (albeit with a little work).
It really depends on what you're after. If its surfing, downloading, WP and graphics, the Mac is a better option. If its gaming or cheap video (the Mac is industry standard in hollywood, but it costs), or you want to be able to mess around with the OS and customise to within an inch of its life, then the PC is the better option.
Hopefully the idea of a dual based system will be a reality within a few years and we can all enjoy the best of both worlds.
KeyserSoze
28-07-2005, 12:35
How is the Mac for software development such as Java, web programming etc. Does it support Flash MX ?
GreyJackal
28-07-2005, 12:40
Certainly supports Flash - Macromedia's products were originally Mac as I recall.
Yell's entire design team use Macs (mixture of G5s and iMacs when I left a year ago) and use Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Photoshop etc.
home_bas
28-07-2005, 12:43
Prerry sure Flash is supported, Java dev support is there but the updates don't come as quickly as with Windows.
KeyserSoze
28-07-2005, 12:56
Nice :thumbs:
So can i only buy macs from Apple store/sites ? Im thinking about getting a powerbook now. But £1000 starting price isnt too appealing.
No, you can get them from lots of other places too:
John Lewis
Dabs
Mac Warehouse
Computer Warehouse
Jigsaw Direct
PC World (I'd not recommend them though)
Micro Anvika
Full list here:
http://apple.via.infonow.net/locator/jsp/index.jsp?LOC=en_GB
PowerBooks are pretty good ;-) I'm typing this on one. I love it. It's so small and luggable yet so powerful.
NicolaUK
28-07-2005, 13:21
Nice :thumbs:
So can i only buy macs from Apple store/sites ? Im thinking about getting a powerbook now. But £1000 starting price isnt too appealing.
It's definitely worth a trip into London to visit the Apple Store on Regent St to have a play first :D
Or Birmingham Bull Ring, or Bluewater, if either of those are nearer ;-)
NicolaUK
28-07-2005, 13:37
No doubt Bluewater is closer but the Regent St store has to be seen, it's :notworthy
Yeah, you are right there :-)
fivebyfive
28-07-2005, 16:12
As a long time mac user (15 yrs) I'd challenge that but anyone buying a mac now would be using Panther/Tiger so :shrug:
You would be surpised how many people use it, The company i work for use it and it's crap. Also people (who work at home) who send in adverts/templates use it
NicolaUK
28-07-2005, 16:38
You would be surpised how many people use it, The company i work for use it and it's crap. Also people (who work at home) who send in adverts/templates use it
I've been using macs since the release of System 7, each new OS has been an improvement on the last - which is to be expected. I still have machines at work running it as the hardware they drive requires it. I'd agree that OSX is vastly superior to 9 but would not call 9 crap at all. Why do you think it's crap?
Anyone buying a mac these days will buy it with OSX so :shrug:
fivebyfive
28-07-2005, 16:56
I've been using macs since the release of System 7, each new OS has been an improvement on the last - which is to be expected. I still have machines at work running it as the hardware they drive requires it. I'd agree that OSX is vastly superior to 9 but would not call 9 crap at all. Why do you think it's crap?
Anyone buying a mac these days will buy it with OSX so :shrug:
people and very small companies (or just tight ones) buy a machine with os9 (or lower) as it's very cheap, saw a g3 or g4 on ebay being sold for about £220.
The problem I have with os9 it's very unstable and Quark 4 runs poorly on it, the machines need to be taken away and re-installed every 3 months. The machines are only used by the mac operators not the sales chimps, so it's not like some muppet is messing with it
I briefly use osx and it's nice OS
NicolaUK
28-07-2005, 17:09
To have to install an OS every 3 months is madness, in 5 yrs of using 9 I've not had any experiences like that and that's using all the 'regular' graphics packages, inc Quark. If installed and configured correctly it isn't unstable at all.
fivebyfive
28-07-2005, 17:44
Ok, 3 months might be a slight exaggeration maybe 6 months (but not for every mac). All the macs are set up by the same qualified mac technican and the OSX ones are fine.
Even if it worked correctly I still would not recommend it
You would be surpised how many people use it, The company i work for use it and it's crap. Also people (who work at home) who send in adverts/templates use it
Mac OS 9 was more unstable than Mac OS X - everyone knows that.
Let's be realistic though. Mac OS 9 was out at the same time as Windows 98, and most people would also say that Windows 98 is crap. Both are OSes that are over five years old, and therefore irrelevant to anyone buying a new computer, unless they are buying an antique from eBay.
Mac OS X rocks and is superstable. My system hasn't been restarted since April (when I installed Tiger).
Floop
NicolaUK
28-07-2005, 18:27
Ok, 3 months might be a slight exaggeration maybe 6 months (but not for every mac). All the macs are set up by the same qualified mac technican and the OSX ones are fine.
Even if it worked correctly I still would not recommend it
3 or 6 months, your qualified technician needs kicking up the arse.
Yeah but my point was it's not down to anything intrinsically Apple or OSX if you get my drift.
So nothing at all to do with the way OSX makes you type in your password before it'll let any software do anything harmful then?
I bought one of the cheap PCWorld G3 iBooks last year and sold it a couple of months ago. Enjoyed using it a lot, the effortless bluetooth and wifi support, the 5+ hour battery life, the near-instant sleep and wake, the simple program install/removal, the general intuitivity of it all, the small size and lack of heat and noise. Certainly at the time there was nothing at that size/weight, with that battery life, with optical drive built in, and definately not at that price.
OSX is very slick and the integration of the iLife apps is very impressive. I never really got on with iPhoto though, had no use (or enough CPU power) for iMovie and couldn't use iDVD. A lot of what I ran was the same open-source stuff that's available for other platforms, so ultimately there wasn't a lot tying me to the Mac which made it easy to get rid of. Was planning to sell it to get a newer iBook, waited for the updates and now I'm not so sure; there's a few things I still can't do properly on the Mac (unless I resort to VPC) and I can run the same things on windows - the same reasons I've never been too interested in linux as a desktop OS.
IMO, buy one if:
- you like the design (there's nothing to touch the iMac G5s, and no clear equivalent to the iBooks)
- you're interested in Garageband and iMovie, they're damn good apps considering they're effectively free.
- you want a properly hassle-free experience - which is particularly nice if you work supporting windows all day.
They certainly make an excellent second machine if you have a PC to hand as well. The iBook has all the power most people would need, is a perfect mobile typing/browsing machine, and are superb value now they've been updated. £700 gets you a 1.33Ghz G4, 512Mb RAM, 40Gb HD, integrated wifi and bluetooth 2.0. I'm almost talking myself into it :) Will have to have a play on the new ones in the Regent Street store next time I'm down that way.
KeyserSoze
28-07-2005, 23:06
well dont know about others, but im sold. Now i need a job to fund it.
Have a desktop PC so i think a bit of variety would do me good :thumbs:
Get yourself a mini then you can just use your existing monitor and keyboard (if its usb)
I use macs at home and pc's at work god pc's are rubbish in comparison. XP also has stuff ripped of Mac OS.
OS X tiger is just genius everything is drag and drop and easy. Want to get rid of a program just put it in the trash no unistall worrid about getting rid of all the left overs etc.
All design programs were originaly writain for macs if thats what you use it for adobe/macromedia.
Look better, makes me laugh when i go to pc world and see pc's trying to look like a mac :lol:
Just a shame many cannot see it and find the very uncomfortable using them if they had used pc's all the time.
Not for long as OS 11 will be able to be used on pc's i think :)
In my line of work (loosely based around printing) I'm doing more and more 'imaging' (Photoshop etc) and I keep getting cries from collegues - 'argh, why do you use PC?'. I tell them I don't get it, to wit they answer that Macs are so much more intuitive, better for photoshop, don't crash etc.
Thing is, Photoshop 7 on the PC must do everything it does on the Mac - most of the menus look the same to me. Adobe have been at it for years so pressumably they program it to be just as productive on the PC as it is on Mac. Intuitive? I know Windows like the back of my hand so I don't see any issue there. Crashing PC? If you know how to maintain a lean system, get rid of any unecessary background rubbish crashing shouldn't be an issue. Spyware/adware/viruses? Takes 5 minutes to load on Spybot/Adaware/AVG which by and large keep you covered. Sure, if you're a noob learning Windows inside out would be slow and laborious but I've been using the various incarnations for 10 years now. FWIW I have tried a Mac, was nice but to me it seemed like Mac's are for novices, PC is for power-user and the sheer flexibilty is amazing.
I just don't get it :shrug: sometimes I feel I'm being victimised by these pesky Mac snobs :razz:
(Oh, and like Greyjackal I just wanted to share my thoughts, not interested in a barny...I left those days behind with Megadrive vs SNES :lol: ).
fivebyfive
28-07-2005, 23:52
In my line of work (loosely based around printing) I'm doing more and more 'imaging' (Photoshop etc) and I keep getting cries from collegues - 'argh, why do you use PC?'. I tell them I don't get it, to wit they answer that Macs are so much more intuitive, better for photoshop, don't crash etc.
Sounds like my supervisor, any thing 72 dpi and rgb, MUST be made on PC, :cuckoo:
I don't understand why people get fanboyish over a computer OS, :brickwall
Well, I've been a windows man since....forever basically and always had that typical sneering attitude towards macs.
But!
I've been playing about on a new friend's iBook over the last few weeks and it rocks! So much so that I'm really REALLY tempted to make my next laptop purchase a powerbook :eek:
The only thing that's really putting me off still is the reduced amount of software available when compared to the myriad of stuff you can get for Windows machines, but that's not necessarily a bad point. And I'd still have my desktop Windows machine for messing about with that kind of thing :)
Tipicus, you are correct - Mac has less software than Windows.
However, my question is, what application or utility do you require for your Mac, that you cannot get on the Mac.
Let me know what utility you require and I will see if there is a comparable Mac utility (there usually is).
Floop
As a Windows user whenever I have used an Apple machine, getting used to the single click was the worst thing. The rest was easy.
The lack of software isn't really an issue these days, as the software you can get is usually more refined for a Mac, or seems that way.
However, my question is, what application or utility do you require for your Mac, that you cannot get on the Mac.
MS Money in my case; there's only Quicken and then it's the US-centric version.
Visio is the other - Omnigraffle is OK for quick stuff but not a patch on Visio for network documentation.
MS Money in my case; there's only Quicken and then it's the US-centric version. Visio is the other - Omnigraffle is OK for quick stuff but not a patch on Visio for network documentation.
Fair enough.
I have always harboured a lingering suspicion that it is in Microsoft's interests to publish Office on the Mac, because without Office, the Mac platform would probably not be viable for many people, and Microsoft *need* a competitor so they can point and say "We don't have a monopoly on the desktop!".
However, it is *also* in Microsoft's interests to not give the full package, to make Windows users stay with Windows rather than switching to a Mac, which is why Microsoft Office for Mac mysteriously doesn't include MS Access, and why Microsoft haven't bothered releasing hardly any of their other software (such as MS Money) on the Mac either.
I take your point about Visio, it's quite a specialised tool.
NicolaUK
29-07-2005, 10:01
In my line of work (loosely based around printing) I'm doing more and more 'imaging' (Photoshop etc) and I keep getting cries from collegues - 'argh, why do you use PC?'. I tell them I don't get it, to wit they answer that Macs are so much more intuitive, better for photoshop, don't crash etc.
Thing is, Photoshop 7 on the PC must do everything it does on the Mac - most of the menus look the same to me. Adobe have been at it for years so pressumably they program it to be just as productive on the PC as it is on Mac. Intuitive? I know Windows like the back of my hand so I don't see any issue there. Crashing PC? If you know how to maintain a lean system, get rid of any unecessary background rubbish crashing shouldn't be an issue. Spyware/adware/viruses? Takes 5 minutes to load on Spybot/Adaware/AVG which by and large keep you covered. Sure, if you're a noob learning Windows inside out would be slow and laborious but I've been using the various incarnations for 10 years now. FWIW I have tried a Mac, was nice but to me it seemed like Mac's are for novices, PC is for power-user and the sheer flexibilty is amazing.
I just don't get it :shrug: sometimes I feel I'm being victimised by these pesky Mac snobs :razz:
(Oh, and like Greyjackal I just wanted to share my thoughts, not interested in a barny...I left those days behind with Megadrive vs SNES :lol: ).
I use Illustrator/Photoshop on both mac and pcs and the pc just doesn't have the intuitive feel, the keyboard shortcuts don't seem the same - I know that sounds silly - but personally for graphics packages pcs just don't compare. Am also a long time pc user too, so not a noob :p
Having used both Photoshop and Illustrator CS on both Mac and PC I can say that I am more 'productive' on a PC, but that is only because I am used to it, and I can right click. :) Oh, and the Apple key is in a different place on the keyboard to a PC Ctrl key... Swings and roundabouts as the actual software is nearly identical.
paulclissold
29-07-2005, 10:21
New ibook models just released. Same shape/style of course but increased ram to 512mb (about time), 40gig drive, combo, airport extreme, bluetooth now built in (was only an option before) and Tiger of course. That's the base model and at £699 it's a good buy.
Mac Mini has also just been (slightly) upgraded. Worth a look.
If you are feeling rich the imac G5 is a fine buy as well in it's latest form and revision. 20" screen is fab.
the only big problem I have with macs is the price.
Nice machines, but least us not forget that osx is just another version of unix/linux.
home_bas
29-07-2005, 11:47
I've been using a Mac for the last 1 1/2 years now, just upgraded to Tiger (which is great!).
What amazed me was how much MS want for Windows XP - £150 for Home, £200 for Pro??? You're having a LAUGH!
Tiger is only £89 off the shelf! (complete, not upgrade)
Nice machines, but least us not forget that osx is just another version of unix/linux.
Erm... whatever...
OS X does have a UNIX core but most users won't know or care what this actually means - what they care about is the experience of using the OS.
Using OS X is materially different from using Unix or Linux in so many ways.
Your comment would be akin to me saying "Ferarris - nice cars, but let us not forget that they use wheels, and so did Sinclair C5s". :)
Erm... whatever...
erm whatever yourself :shrug:
OS X does have a UNIX core but most users won't know or care what this actually means - what they care about is the experience of using the OS.
What's that got to do with anything? I was merely pointing out for those who didn't know that osx is just another flavour of unix/linux and not an amazing radically different new os.
Using OS X is materially different from using Unix or Linux in so many ways.
thanks for giving me some examples there.;) If you go into the terminal it works exactly the same as unix, so saying it's "materially different" just seems a bit uninformed is all. Yes, the gui maybe different, but underneath the it all they're all the same.
Your comment would be akin to me saying "Ferarris - nice cars, but let us not forget that they use wheels, and so did Sinclair C5s". :)
No, I think a similar anaolgy would be something like, "vw polo's - nice cars but let us not forget they use the same floorpan and design of the Skoda Fabia" :D
NicolaUK
29-07-2005, 12:49
Now, now children, play nice :D
Now, now children, play nice :D
ok mummy :D
sorry Floop :D
I use Illustrator/Photoshop on both mac and pcs and the pc just doesn't have the intuitive feel, the keyboard shortcuts don't seem the same - I know that sounds silly - but personally for graphics packages pcs just don't compare. Am also a long time pc user too, so not a noob :p
Ah, a woman's intuition ;)
There that word is again though; intuitive. But why would I need intuition when I know where everything is!? :shrug:
I was merely pointing out for those who didn't know that osx is just another flavour of unix/linux and not an amazing radically different new os....and I was pointing out that saying Mac OS X is "just another flavour of unix/linux" is a confusing statement as it suggests a high level of similarity between a UNIX system, a LINUX system, and a Mac OS X system.
Yes, Mac OS X is built upon a UNIX foundation using mach and FreeBSD. Yes, Mac OS X offers a complete X Window System implementation for running X11-based applications. Yes, the BSD environment is accessible at any time from the Terminal application should a user wish to use it.
Yes, all of the standard UNIX utilities and scripting languages are included in Mac OS X: editors such as emacs, vim and even ed; file management tools such as cp, mv, ls and tar; shell scripts including bash (the default shell), tcsh (csh) and zsh. And of course you can use scripting languages such as Perl, PHP, tcl, Ruby and Python.
My point is, for 99% of Mac OS X users, this is completely irrelevant becase a Mac OS X user NEVER EVER needs to delve into UNIX - their experience takes place completely within the Mac OS X graphical user interface Aqua which makes things *considerably* different to any other system that uses UNIX (at least as different as OS X vs. Windows).
For the 1% of Mac OS X users who want to delve into UNIX, it is there for them to get into, but it doesn't *matter* to most Mac OS X users as they need not know about it to use the operating system.
thanks for giving me some examples there.You want examples? How about this. The most basic UNIX commands/utilities are:
ls cd pwd mkdir rm rmdir cp touch more ed vi emacs ex echo cat grep sort uniq sed awk tail tee head cut tr split printf comm cmp diff patch yes test xargs chmod chown ps su w who telnet ftp finger ssh sh csh ksh tcsh
No Mac OS X user needs ever have a *clue* what any of this gobbledygook means, because Mac OS X presents everything in a powerful yet intuitive graphical user interface that anybody from five to one hundred and five can understand and use. The fact that UNIX commands are happening in the background, out of sight, is pretty much irrelevant to an OS X user.
Referring to Mac OS X as "just another version of unix/linux" gives the impression that there isn't anything materially different between them, which is false.
I might as well say "PCs... Macs... Unix... Linux... let's not forget that they all run on microchips"... as if that was something profound and meaningful.
No, I think a similar anaolgy would be something like, "vw polo's - nice cars but let us not forget they use the same floorpan and design of the Skoda Fabia" :DI like your analogy :)
http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/archives/000311.html
depends how open minded you are
http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/archives/000311.html
depends how open minded you are
Very funny :notworthy
Yes, Mac OS X is built upon a UNIX foundation using mach and FreeBSD. Yes, Mac OS X offers a complete X Window System implementation for running X11-based applications. Yes, the BSD environment is accessible at any time from the Terminal application should a user wish to use it.
Yes, all of the standard UNIX utilities and scripting languages are included in Mac OS X: editors such as emacs, vim and even ed; file management tools such as cp, mv, ls and tar; shell scripts including bash (the default shell), tcsh (csh) and zsh. And of course you can use scripting languages such as Perl, PHP, tcl, Ruby and Python.
Referring to Mac OS X as "just another version of unix/linux" gives the impression that there isn't anything materially different between them, which is false.
:p ;)
I know what you are trying to say, but personally I would just say that OSX is another form of unix/linux with an excellent gui front end.
Anyways enough of this or Nicola will give us both a good spanking :D
NicolaUK
29-07-2005, 15:04
:nono:
:wave:
I know what you are trying to say, but personally I would just say that OSX is another form of unix/linux with an excellent gui front end.
Okay, fine.
I know what YOU are trying to say, but personally I would just say that you are an orangutang with excellent manners. :D :D :D
I mean, you share the similarities of having bones, warm blood and opposable thumbs! :doh:
It makes about as much sense.
Right Nicola. I'm ready to be spanked! :thumbs:
Floop
(P.S. I mean this humourously... no offence intended!!!)
KeyserSoze
29-07-2005, 20:17
Can a Mac connect to a PC over a network to share files ?
NicolaUK
29-07-2005, 20:42
Yes :)
PlexShaw
29-07-2005, 20:58
What amazed me was how much MS want for Windows XP - £150 for Home, £200 for Pro??? You're having a LAUGH!
Or £60 for Home and £100 for Pro if you get for the OEM version. :dork:
Or £60 for Home and £100 for Pro if you get for the OEM version. :dork:
I've never understood what the situation regarding OEM software.
I thought OEM was meant to be bundled with a machine, so if you buy OEM software by itself that is a contravention of the license agreement and you are effectively using an unlicensed copy of the software.
Is this the case?
PlexShaw
29-07-2005, 21:37
I've never understood what the situation regarding OEM software.
I thought OEM was meant to be bundled with a machine, so if you buy OEM software by itself that is a contravention of the license agreement and you are effectively using an unlicensed copy of the software.
Is this the case?
No, you can buy it with an appropriate piece of hardware. In most cases, the cheapest option is a mouse.
Here's what Ebuyer have to say on the subject:
Microsoft OEM Operating System software MUST be purchased with a non-peripheral hardware component or fully assembled computer system. Non-peripheral hardware consists of a motherboard, graphics card, memory module, hard disk, keyboard or mouse.
Interesting... I wonder where eBuyer get their information from. The best I could find on Microsoft's website was this
OEM operating system licences live and die with each PC - they are not transferable. If a PC with an OEM Windows Licence is to be replaced then a new licence is needed for the replacement PC. This applies even if the old PC no longer has Windows installed or if it is destroyed. This suggests that it needs to be a PC, not a piece of "non-peripheral hardware" but who knows...
UPDATE: I have found out a little more. Apparently, to distribute Microsoft OEM software you need to be what Microsoft call a 'System Builder' (SB).
In the case of ebuyer, they are the system builders, and according to their license they are required to distribute Windows OEM software with either a fully assembled computer system or non-peripheral computer hardware component.
"Non-peripheral computer hardware component" is defined in Section 4.1 of the OEM license:
Section 4.1 – Software Distribution. The term "non-peripheral hardware component" has been further defined as any hardware component "that will be an integral part of the computer system on which the software will be installed". While Microsoft will not be providing a definitive list, this definition includes components essential to running a computer system, such as memory, internal drives, mice, keyboards, power supplies, and internal devices. Examples of components NOT considered essential are scanners, printers, cameras, and external modems/networking devices.
So the upshot of this is that if Ebuyer supply you with Windows OEM software along with a "non-peripheral computer hardware component" such as a mouse, then you are legitimately obtaining Windows OEM software.
I didn't know this, and am intrigued by it, and thanks to PlexShaw for putting me on the right track. Hope this information is useful to some people.
PlexShaw
29-07-2005, 22:09
As I said, you can buy OEM XP with a piece of non-peripheral hardware. If you were to build your own PC, you could would typically buy the OEM version at the same time as the components.
You should note that there are also OEM versions of Microsoft Office etc, but these have totally different restrictions on them.
Have a read of this:
http://blogs.msdn.com/mssmallbiz/archive/2005/06/06/425681.aspx
EDIT: Just saw your edit. Cross-posting fun!
Beat me to it - I took a while editing my post! You are right, my apologies.
PlexShaw
29-07-2005, 22:14
Beat me to it - I took a while editing my post! You are right, my apologies.
Ahh... no worries. :)
It's a weird one isn't it.
Microsoft publicly charge prices of about £150 for XP Home, and £200 for XP Pro.
However, there is a completely legal way of getting XP Home for £60 and XP Pro for £200, which is about a 50% disconut, if you buy it with a mouse (any cheap tacky mouse will do).
It's great if you know the rules, but I pity the people who full price.
One thing no-one seemes to have mentioned is what happens when they go phut! And they do. With a PC it's pretty easy to diagnose the fault. Even if you have to use another PC to swap bits in and out they are fairly interchangable. Also pretty cheap to fix - there aren't many individual components that are wildly expensive.
It's a different story with macs though. You try finding 'a mate' who can fix mac hardware - gold dust. Enthusiasts will say that is because they are bullet-proof and never go wrong but it's not that. Electronics go wrong. Fact. The real reason is that mac hardware is expensive, tends to be unique to Apple (HDDs and memory excluded) and even to individual machine models so interchanging parts and upgrading machines just doesn't happen as it does with PC's.
For example, I wanted to bung a DVD writer on to my PC so I went out, bought one, installed it and was up and running in no time. However, iMac slot loader: CD only. That's it. And if that goes tits up I have to buy a replacement Apple one. There is no DVD writer for that model.
I managed to fix my iMac by using various tech forums but it was a struggle and it was obvious that fixing them is pretty much a black art. It took me about 3 weeks of faffing to find a fault that would have taken half an hour on a PC (it was a DIMM that had partially failed - but the symptoms pointed to the video card which is integral on the motherboard of an iMac).
Having said all that, I do like the iMac although I would disagree that OSX is intuitive. I'm still stumped by most of it - probably because I just can't get Windows out of my head. I click away and eventually the app I want will spring to life - I'm never quite sure where it goes when I open another window and I don't think I've ever managed to close an app. If anyone knows of an idiots guide to using OSX I'd be very glad to hear of it!
I do like the way plug n play works - I plugged my DV camera in and it was just there - no beeps, pop ups, new drivers loading etc. Nice. The same with USB peripherals - they just work. However, if they don't then you're stuffed as manufacturers rarely bother with any drivers for macs. I recently bought a D-Link ADSL wireless hub with USB wireless dongle and there is no mac support for that dongle (I did know that when I bought it so I'm not complaining, just illustrating the general limitations)
Also, someone commented that OSX users never have to go into Unix. Wrong. If your's gets as stuffed as mine did you'll need to execute some Unix commands to help diagnose the problem.
So, would I buy another mac? Probably, but not if it was the one and only computer I could have - if that was the case I'd have to go for a PC.
It's a different story with macs though. You try finding 'a mate' who can fix mac hardware - gold dust. Enthusiasts will say that is because they are bullet-proof and never go wrong but it's not that. Electronics go wrong. Fact.
Fair point. Anyone who says Macs never go wrong is telling porkies (and I'm a Mac enthusiast by the way). I would argue, however, that most faulty electronic equipment is discovered to be faulty within the first 12 months, i.e. within the warranty period, in which case the manufacturer should sort it out (and Apple are noted for having excellent support, relative to other PC manufacturers).
The real reason is that mac hardware is expensive, tends to be unique to Apple (HDDs and memory excluded) and even to individual machine models so interchanging parts and upgrading machines just doesn't happen as it does with PC's.
Also a fair point, even though you are a bit off about the hardware situation. Apple hardware uses pretty standard components these days(apart from the mobo and the chip). The difference is that there is less driver support for add-on hardware (especially internal hardware) than there is on a PC so you are more likely to run into problems if you start toying with trying to do cunning hardware mods to your Apple Mac.
For example, I wanted to bung a DVD writer on to my PC so I went out, bought one, installed it and was up and running in no time. However, iMac slot loader: CD only. That's it. And if that goes tits up I have to buy a replacement Apple one. There is no DVD writer for that model.Another fair point, although the iMac isn't sold as being upgradeable (other than RAM). However, if you really wanted to add on a DVD writer to an iMac that didn't ship with one, you could get an external one and connect it via FireWire or USB 2.0.
Good post by the way. Only thing I would add is that although you say that finding someone who will help you with a Mac problem is difficult, Mac users as a rule are pretty charitable about helping out other Mac users! Also check out some Mac forums such as the ones below as there are some really helpful and knowledgable people on there:
www.maccentral.com
www.macworld.com
www.macworld.co.uk
Failing that, you can always ask me. I'll be happy to help :thumbs:
Cheers Floop - thanks for the offer. I think those were the forums I used and, yes, mac users were very charitable - none of the facetious replies that often accompany cries for PC help!
It's certainly a plus point that USB and firewire support is so good that its sometimes possible to get round the non-upgradable situation but I just get the impression that macs, in general, don't have the overall flexibility of PCs - both in terms of hardware and software.
It's also vaguely annoying that so many manufacturers of hardware just ignore macs entirely. I can't understand why - there's a market there, why don't they exploit it?
I'm also a bit surprised that there aren't more enthusiasts who get stuck in.
A friend recently bought his kid an iPod shuffle. He asked the guy in Woolworths (!!!) if it would work on Win98 and he said Yes (hmmmmmm). Anyway, it obviously didn't (it even said so on the packet!) so he asked me to have a furkle. As it turned out someone's written a driver and, with a bit of tweaking, it all works fine.
That just wouldn't happen in reverse. Even more, there's some mac software I have that runs under OS9 but not OSX - it opens an OS9 shell (if that's the right expression) to run it. Fine, but it just seems a little odd when virtually all Windows software will run on later versions. I'm sure there are very good reasons but it all adds up to my general feeling that I don't quite know what's going on. And I'm uncomfortable with that. Or maybe I'm just a control freak. :)
I just get the impression that macs, in general, don't have the overall flexibility of PCs - both in terms of hardware and software.
Your impression is basically correct. Mac users often do upgrade their hardware, but generally not to the same extent that many PC users upgrade their hardware.
It's also vaguely annoying that so many manufacturers of hardware just ignore macs entirely. I can't understand why - there's a market there, why don't they exploit it?The market is there, and the bigger brand name companies who make hardware do support it, but the cheaper brand names are trying to make the most profit from the most people as quickly as possible, and the Mac marketshare is too small for them to worry about. Luckily Apple are pretty good at building in support for key hardware, e.g. many (if not most) flash drives, ethernet routers, digital cameras, printers, scanners, video cameras will be able to work with Mac OS X immediately, with no need for drivers to be installed.
I'm also a bit surprised that there aren't more enthusiasts who get stuck in. A friend recently bought his kid an iPod shuffle. He asked the guy in Woolworths (!!!) if it would work on Win98 and he said Yes (hmmmmmm). Anyway, it obviously didn't (it even said so on the packet!) so he asked me to have a furkle. As it turned out someone's written a driver and, with a bit of tweaking, it all works fine.
Well done. I have heard about that driver and glad it works for you. There is no reason Apple couldn't have implemented Win98 support themselves, other than it would be a third Windows OS they need to test for (officially they only support Windows 2000 and Windows XP).
Even more, there's some mac software I have that runs under OS9 but not OSX - it opens an OS9 shell (if that's the right expression) to run it. Fine, but it just seems a little odd when virtually all Windows software will run on later versions. I'm sure there are very good reasons but it all adds up to my general feeling that I don't quite know what's going on. And I'm uncomfortable with that. Or maybe I'm just a control freak. :) What Mac OS 9 software are you using - let me recommend something better that works natively in OS X! Yes, Mac OS 9 software will start up 'Classic Mode' which is a bit like a shell, but these days I never need to use Mac OS 9 software so I'm wondering what it is you are using.
Your question as to why Windows software works fine on later versions of Windows, but Mac OS 9 software needs to run in a shell on Mac OS X is a good question and reasonably simply answered.
The 'Classic' Mac OS was released in 1984, and every system version from then until the latest version of the Classic Mac OS (version 9.2, released in 2001) was an upgrade to the Classic Mac OS.
The problem that Apple increasingly found (and all OSes run into eventually) is that ten or fifteen years after the original OS was created from scratch, you start wanting to add technologies or features that cannot be handled efficiently within the OS because elements of that original OS are a roadblock or a bottleneck to achieving your goal. No-one could have foreseen what you wanted to do with the OS over a decade earlier, and at some point a major upgrade needs to occur to cater for the more modern needs of an OS.
The change from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X was *huge*. There is basically nothing in common between the way Mac OS 9 works and the way Mac OS X works, in terms of the underlying software. Chalk and cheese. Apple knew they wanted to transition to a more modern OS, and over a very long period they came up with OS X which is to be the foundation of the Mac OS for the next decade and more.
To allow people to use their old Classic (OS 9) software, they built in Classic support, which allows you to basically run OS 9 when you need it, within OS X, so you can run your OS 9 applications. This was largely intended to help people 'make the leap' to the newer OS X. These days, I never need OS 9 and I don't think most people do (as I say, let me know what OS 9 software you use).
So why has this not been a problem for Windows? Well the answer is that Windows started about ten years after the Mac OS. The last big change for PC users was changing from DOS to Windows which happened in around 1993 when Windows 3.1 surfaced. In the intervening years Microsoft have built on the foundations of Windows but have not had to make the same kind of major transition that Mac users did when changing from OS 9 to OS X.
Did I sound a bit like Eugene from Big Brother in that post?
Prerry sure Flash is supported, Java dev support is there but the updates don't come as quickly as with Windows.
Java support is pretty poor. Apple are only getting 1.5 (or 5.0) out now and Apple don't plan a version for Panther. If you were not part of the developer program (couple of thousand a year I believe) then you had no access to 1.5 til Tiger came out.
Beware using an Apple laptop in public may result in random strangers asking for help with their technical problems.
That just wouldn't happen in reverse. Even more, there's some mac software I have that runs under OS9 but not OSX - it opens an OS9 shell (if that's the right expression) to run it. Fine, but it just seems a little odd when virtually all Windows software will run on later versions. I'm sure there are very good reasons but it all adds up to my general feeling that I don't quite know what's going on. And I'm uncomfortable with that. Or maybe I'm just a control freak. :)
Windows does virtually the same, it just hides it a little better. Run up something old, look at the process list in task manager and you'll see "wowexec.exe". This is "windows on windows" aka the 16-bit subsystem, and works with ntvdm.exe (the virtual DOS machine) to create a separate environment for 16-bit apps to run in.
In both cases, the move to a proper 32-bit operating system broke compatability with old 16-bit apps, and some bodging was needed to ensure they'd still run.
I generally disagree with the "difficulties" getting Macs fixed. The service manuals are easy to come by, and diagnosing a fault is usually easier. Drives are all generic PC ones, and I have seen people replace optical drives with better ones. The relatively stable models mean logic boards and the like are easy to find too - I know I can get an older iBook board easier and cheaper than the typical 3-year old PC laptop.
GreyJackal
31-07-2005, 11:21
What amazed me was how much MS want for Windows XP - £150 for Home, £200 for Pro??? You're having a LAUGH!
Tiger is only £89 off the shelf! (complete, not upgrade)
And Apple want cash for service packs. You're having a LAUGH!
;)
Six of one and half a dozen of the other isn't it. As I said earlier, OS pricing and its distribution model are down to the company not the machine or OS itself. As long as you're aware of these "quirks" when getting involved with one or t'other, it's not really an issue.
Did I sound a bit like Eugene from Big Brother in that post?
Dunno. I steer clear of brainless garbage like that. How come someone like you, who is obviously an intelligent person, watches stuff like that? Am I missing out on something here? I can't see the fascination in watching what other people do - I can barely stand my own life let alone bothering about someone elses trivia. I don't watch soaps for the same reason.
Sorry, completely off topic but I just HATE reality tv - it makes my blood boil and after a few bevvies (like today) I get a bit narky.
Getting back to your earlier post - I don't actually use any of the OS9 apps. My point was that they don't run in OSX however, as sjg1 just pointed out, Windows does something similar (I didn't know that) so it makes the argument slightly redundant - although I think the Windows solution is more elegant.
Really, I guess it all boils down to horses for courses - if you're happy with your mac or PC then why change?
I've just made the switch to Mac OS and i'm not going back!
The operating system is brilliant, so simple, yet so advanced, it does everything that you could ever want it to and in my opinion,is far superior to Windows, which i'm very advanced in and have been using for the last god knows how many years!
another switcher here, used to laugh at macs now I love em. Been using an iBook and an eMac for three years now.
fivebyfive
01-08-2005, 18:21
old but still funny
http://www.whitehathouston.com/mac.wmv
(why macs sucks video) :D
Except most of that video is rubbish :)
thescrounger
01-08-2005, 18:42
Macs are being turned into PCs aren't they? The new models will have pentiums.
I think there was a good case to favour Macs over PCs a few years ago. Not so much reason now though.
Yes there is, the operating system :) although with the new Macs you should be able to run Windows too (if you want to)
KeyserSoze
02-08-2005, 10:23
Do you think the prices for new models will come down in the near future ?
Im starting to decide against buying a Powerbook solely due the high price. Looked at the iBook but the specs dont meet my requirements. And even at £700 it seems expensive, where you can get a fairly decent PC laptop for about £500 these days.
I would be spending a minumum of £1200 on the powerbook (as i want the superdrive) but it doesnt even include something as simple as S-Video !
Hmm hopefully i will win the lottery soon.
[ibook] And even at £700 it seems expensive, where you can get a fairly decent PC laptop for about £500 these days.
Show me a £500 (or even £700 ) PC laptop that's less than 5lb (2.2Kg) including optical drive. One that manages 6 hours life on the standard battery. That has integrated wifi, bluetooth and firewire.
I think the iBooks are superb value for a practical, do-anything portable. If you need DVD writing, an external firewire DVD writer does the job for around £70.
Oh, and if you need S-Video then the dongle is £15, and versions are available for all iBook and Powerbook models. It's a fairly bulky connector, so I prefer having it separated.
raymondlin
02-08-2005, 11:26
One thing i do love is hte apple keyboard, so much so i just bought one for my Laptop. Why couldn't Microsoft make on that type just like it is beyond me, There is no other eyboard on the market feel just like it, the keys are soft and responsive. On downside is that it is all white thou i love the whiteness of it), i can't help but hate to see this keyboard slowly turn yellow and dirty due to general wear and tear.
But for £20, what a bargain, i don't think you can get a £20 keyboard that comes close to the quality to this product.
KeyserSoze
02-08-2005, 12:40
Show me a £500 (or even £700 ) PC laptop that's less than 5lb (2.2Kg) including optical drive. One that manages 6 hours life on the standard battery. That has integrated wifi, bluetooth and firewire.
I think the iBooks are superb value for a practical, do-anything portable. If you need DVD writing, an external firewire DVD writer does the job for around £70.
Oh, and if you need S-Video then the dongle is £15, and versions are available for all iBook and Powerbook models. It's a fairly bulky connector, so I prefer having it separated.
Oooh interesting, my faith is slighty restoring. External devices like DVD writers and HDDs... can you buy the same models you get for the PC ?
Didnt know you could get an S-Video dongle. Always wanted one for my old laptop (only has VGA out), thanks for the heads up !
Oooh interesting, my faith is slighty restoring. External devices like DVD writers and HDDs... can you buy the same models you get for the PC ?
Yes I have a Samsung bought from Aldi a few months ago and it just works ...
One thing to be aware of though - just found this out myself - Macs can read and write NTFS volumes but for an application like iMovie if you want to store the project on an external drive it MUST be Mac formatted. This may be true for other apps?
KeyserSoze
02-08-2005, 12:48
thanks
Looking at getting an iBook now :D
i can't help but hate to see this keyboard slowly turn yellow and dirty due to general wear and tear.
Have you seen these?
http://www.iskin.com/protouch_xt.html
Got one myself, pricey but worth it in the long run i feel.
raymondlin
02-08-2005, 16:39
Have you seen these?
http://www.iskin.com/protouch_xt.html
Got one myself, pricey but worth it in the long run i feel.
Cool, but for $30/£20+ P&P (which is $15 btw = like £35 total !)....I might as well get a spare apple Keyboard or two......
Good idea, but not when i can get 2 Spare keyboard...thanks anyway.
anyone know the cheapest way to buy a new iBook 14"? Education discount or are there any specials out there ATM? Would like to pay less than the quoted £899 ...
anyone know the cheapest way to buy a new iBook 14"? Education discount or are there any specials out there ATM? Would like to pay less than the quoted £899 ...
Educational discount is the best going. They're doing the usual "back to school" deal of £100 rebate if you buy a portable or iMac plus an iPod (not shuffle). Get an iPod mini and effectively you've got a £30 saving on the iBook and the iPod for free.
One thing i do love is hte apple keyboard, so much so i just bought one for my Laptop. Why couldn't Microsoft make on that type just like it is beyond me, There is no other eyboard on the market feel just like it, the keys are soft and responsive. On downside is that it is all white thou i love the whiteness of it), i can't help but hate to see this keyboard slowly turn yellow and dirty due to general wear and tear.
But for £20, what a bargain, i don't think you can get a £20 keyboard that comes close to the quality to this product.
Where did you get it for £20 ray?
Educational discount is the best going. They're doing the usual "back to school" deal of £100 rebate if you buy a portable or iMac plus an iPod (not shuffle). Get an iPod mini and effectively you've got a £30 saving on the iBook and the iPod for free.
Just passing PC World and noticed they're selling off G4 1.2Ghz models for about £100 off old retail FWIW.
Now I have to get my nephew to buy me an iBook ... how do I get to keep the Ipod?? ;)
Just passing PC World and noticed they're selling off G4 1.2Ghz models for about £100 off old retail FWIW.
That's not bad, but you do have to bear in mind the new models come with twice the RAM, integrated bluetooth (used to be a £35 build-to-order option) plus the 12" gets a bigger HD while the standard 14" gets a Superdrive, on top of the usual speed increase. I'd say you're better off going new, especially as the old models are unlikely to come with Tiger or iLife 05.
I thought the new ones were much better value too. Though my lowly G3 has built in BT thankfully.
Is there any point in dumping the Superdrive? Wouldn't an external writer be just as good (saves £70)??
I'm interested in finally taking the plunge and buying a Mac after talking about it for many years. Considering the Imac G5 with 20" monitor. Am I better off buying it direct from Apple, or looking in PC World for finance options?
Go with Apple.
If you need to buy it on finance, Apple can offer you financing - I don't know how it stacks up with PC World's financing.
PC World have no idea how to work a Mac, so the fact that they have bricks and mortar stores is of no help if you experience a problem.
In fact the *only* benefit of PC World is the possibility that they might have an item you want in stock... though note I used the word 'possibility' as what is more likely is that all they have in stock is old stock from a previous generation of product which has been used as a demonstration model by the public yet bizarrely is still being priced at the original RRP despite having being discounted and cleared out by every other retailer on the planet...
The only reason I would consider PC World is that they will offer 12 months interest free over Apples 14.9% (or thereabouts) with MBNA. Otherwise I'd usually stay well clear of PC World for computers themselves as they're muppets!
NicolaUK
14-08-2005, 09:28
Be wary of PC World last time I looked they were selling old stock - not the revised model - at £100 more :shrug:
That might be the way forward then... go with PC World if they have a brand new, up-to-date model.
However, there is no point gaining 0% interest if you lost out by paying over the odds for an old model.
paulclissold
14-08-2005, 10:13
PC World do not have the new model in stock as of yet. The £100 off is for the 1.2ghz October 2004 revision. If Bluetooth and an extra 256mb ram is not important to you then for £599 it's a good price. But if you fancy Bluetooth, more ram, slightly more ghz and improved graphics card then get the new revision from Apple or wait another 4-6 weeks then PC World will get the newer model in.
Bluetooth is irrelevant if you don't want a wireless keyboard or transfer things to and from your phone.
However, the extra 512MB of RAM is almost a necessity (everyone knows running OS X with only 256MB RAM is a major slowdown), and the improved graphics card is definitely worth waiting for.
I would *definitely* go for the newer model, but this is only my opinion.
NicolaUK
14-08-2005, 11:13
I'm selling an iMac in the classifieds if anyone is interested :D (http://thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383296)
That might be the way forward then... go with PC World if they have a brand new, up-to-date model.
However, there is no point gaining 0% interest if you lost out by paying over the odds for an old model.
The only way I will buy one from them is if it's the newer models and for the 0% finance. Sure they had the new Imac G5's on their website this morning.
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