Pioneer 444

[Mr Furious]

Help a newbie time... ;)

I have recently purchased a multiregion Pioneer 444k from Techtronics. Its a great player - looks good, sounds good and the picture is superb.

However, I have some concerns about the layer changing on my particular machine - which I suspect may be faulty rather than a problem with the model.

I have timed the layer change on my machine at 1.7 seconds for two seperate discs (Gladiator and The Godfather II) - but other people I have spoken to who own this machine describe the delay as 'less than 0.5 seconds' for the same discs.

I have contacted Techtronics and am waiting to hear back - but I was wondering whether any other owners of this machine have noticed a lengthy layer change on this model.. or whether any owners could confirm that the layer change should be in the region of 0.5 secs!

Any help would be appreciated.

[Cable Monkey]

That does sound like a slow layer change to me, even by the standards of my Sony player which does have a slowish layer change. I personally have not heard of any layer change issues with this player. What now remains to be seen is if your chosen supplier responds in a quick and helpful way to your enquiry.

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by Cable Monkey
I personally have not heard of any layer change issues with this player.
Me neither - which is what has alerted me really. I've serached the net for hours and found no complaints of sluggish layer changing.

I can accept some form of pause (althought my old Wharfedale has a seamless layer change) - but this one freezes for what seems like ages.

I'm hoping Techtronics can sort me out.

Thanks! :)

[Bapapapa]

Yeah good luck with Techtronics. :/

[Alanok]

Originally posted by Cable Monkey
What now remains to be seen is if your chosen supplier responds in a quick and helpful way to your enquiry.

That the $1million question.

[Mr Furious]

Have Techtronics got a bad rep for this kind of thing?? I was led to believe they were quite good.

I sent them a mail the weekend before last about the picture freeze and they replied quickly - with a stock answer about layer-changing (which I kinda already knew).

I then sent another last Wednesday explaining that I felt the layer change on my machine was longer than it should be - to which I have had no reply!! I sent them another last night - giving them the benefit of the doubt that somehow the mail had got lost. If they do not reply to this one then I'll start kicking up a stink!

Basically I want a replacement... or my money back.

Thanks for the replies guys! :)

[Bapapapa]

Have Techtronics got a bad rep for this kind of thing??

:o

I was led to believe they were quite good.

:p

Basically I want a replacement... or my money back.

:nuts:

[Mr Furious]

Oooohhhh!! :o

Does that mean I may be employing the Barclaycard legal services in the near future?

Doh!

[Alanok]

Originally posted by Mr Furious
Have Techtronics got a bad rep for this kind of thing??

Yes they have, especially in this forum.

I sent them a mail the weekend before last about the picture freeze and they replied quickly - with a stock answer about layer-changing (which I kinda already knew).

"Hmmmm this guy has a problem with layer change.....lets give him the stock answer and hope he goes away"

I then sent another last Wednesday explaining that I felt the layer change on my machine was longer than it should be - to which I have had no reply!!

"Oh crap he's back....ignore him and he'll get bored"

Basically I want a replacement... or my money back.

Good luck fella.

Does that mean I may be employing the Barclaycard legal services in the near future?

That will be a start.

[Mr Furious]

Well, there doesn't seem to be too many people jumping to their defence so my guard is now up.

I'll be contacting Barclaycard to see what my options are... Techtronics have a couple of days to respond to my last mail and then I guess I'll have to start looking to send the 'boys' round :D

I'm quite stubborn and determined so they won't be fobbing me off that easily. I still have my trusty Wharfedale as well... ;)

Thanks for the warning...

[Andy_C]

Your username for the forums is unusually apt in this situation.

You will be Mr Furious after having to deal with TechnoTronics.

But whatever you do, don't mention these forums if you deal with them. I do believe they hate us... (how dare we want players that work!)

[bossc@]

Mr Furious

Are you the same guy that posted the thread on DVD reviewer site at all - if so watched this with interest as I was considering buting one at the time.

If not looks like this gur got the player from techtronics as well

Sorry - forgot to post link:

http://www.dvd.reviewer.co.uk/forums/thread.asp?Forum=211&Thread=63821&Type=1

[Mr Furious]

Yes, thats me...

I posted there before I knew of the existence of this forum. I had posted in DVD Reviewer when I had a problem with my Wharfedale and they helped me there so I tried again and got some useful comments.

Anyway, as you can see - its nearly two weeks on and I'm still no nearer to resolving this issue. I'm trying to find a friendly neighbourhood hi-fi dealer who will let me try the Gladiator disc on another Pioneer machine so I can compare. Only place I've found stocking it is Curry's unfortunately and they won't set one up for me (they just have them for display).

When I get some news, I'll update both this forum and the DVD Reviewer one so people know the score with both the player (which I still think is NOT to blame in this scenario) and Techtronics (who I think ARE to blame).

Thanks anyway mate. :)

[Delh]

Just thought i'd add my comments -

My Pioneer 444 m/r player has noticeably slower layer changes than either of my previous players - Samsung 807 & Wharfedale 750.
On Gladiator R1 layer change there is a '1s + ish' pause, & i must say now on all my discs the layer changes are obvious, as opposed to the seamless layer change of the wharfie!

'Definately longer than 0.5s'

I used to think it was a pain, but am getting used to it, as there doesn't seem to be anything else particularly wrong with the player.

I think this may help a little in your analysis

Feel free to ask me any questions if any come up!

Delh

[Mr Furious]

Thanks Delh....

...hmmm - that's interesting. I'm finding it quite obtrusive at the moment I must admit...

It raises a couple of questions (remember I'm a bit of a newbie).

1) Is it possible the 'chipping' causes layer change problems?
2) Do I still have grounds for a refund if I'm not happy? Techtronics apparently charge a 15% rehandling fee - which will come to £25 (I can provide my own courier who will ensure that TT sign for it as having arrived safely).

It still does not explain why Techtronics have failed to reply to my e-mails though.

[Delh]

1) Is it possible the 'chipping' causes layer change problems?

It is possible i guess, who knows?, but different disks have different layer changes - some quicker than others, some placed(:eek: ) better than others. I have a laserdisc player that takes 8s to change, so 1s is acceptable (although irritating after my wharfie).

I changed from a Tosh 210e m/r to the Pioneer, because the Tosh i had actually made Gladiator flicker during the side change & was just as slow( among other things)

There is a site (?!) somewhere that lists layer changes, perhaps a visit there is in order, to test some other discs u have

As for Techtronics, i believe that there Customer Service may be a bit lacking ( having read things about them previously)

You've also got to think of your budget, & what other players meet your criteria - When i did this my choices were limited.

Delh

[akira9000]

I was in a similar situation to you a couple of years ago.
Got a sony 325 from techtronics that was really ,really noisy.
After hearing the reports on the net about how bad TT are at customer relations I never got round to returning the player.

Hope you get this sorted m8 as layer change delay can be a real pain.
Next time maybe deal with some other company.I'm sure you can find a good one on these boards.

[Mr Furious]

Thanks guys

I'm looking at my options at the moment. I bought it using my Barclaycard which does provide me with some excellent backup and protection.

I consider a 1.7s delay on a layer change to be extremely poor - 0.5s is acceptable - so one way or another I am simply not happy with the performance of my machine. Techtronics seem unwilling to help me on this matter and so I am not satisfied with them either (guess what? Still no reply to my last e-mail).

As this is now a supplier issue I may begin a thread in the Suppliers forum, so if people are interested in the outcome with Techtronics then I'll let you know in here when I have created the thread.

I'll post any info I find out on the Pioneer 444 in here to help other people interested in buying the machine.

[Andy_C]

If you have any region 2 discs that are having this long layer change problem, why don't you take some of the discs down to Comet or Dixons at the weekend?

Pretend you are going to buy a new DVD player, but you are concerned about this layer change thing. Test your discs on the in-store Pioneer and compare it to other players in the shop.

At least then, you'll probably know if this loooong layer change is a player specific or mod specific thing...

(the people in store may be reluctant to help you at first, but pretend you are concerned about it breaking down. If they sense an extended warranty sale, they'll spend a lot more time helping you...)

[stolt]

Mr Furious - sorry to hear of your plight m8, hope you get it settled real soon. I was really interested in this player and was hours away from buyign when when I saw your thread so I'm really undecided now, does anyone know if the Pioneer 545 has the same problem with layer changes?

A 1.5 sec layer change is just not something I can put up with.

[Mr Furious]

Andy

I tried this with Currys - the only high street retailer selling it, pretending I was a prospective customer, and they wouldn't connect it up for me (I also had to explain what a layer change was!). :rolleyes:

I'm looking around now for some specialist hi-fi dealers. The thing is I am now a prospective customer because I don't want anything else to do with Techtronics now... I don't want a replacement anymore, I want a refund.

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by stolt
Mr Furious - sorry to hear of your plight m8, hope you get it settled real soon. I was really interested in this player and was hours away from buyign when when I saw your thread so I'm really undecided now, does anyone know if the Pioneer 545 has the same problem with layer changes?

A 1.5 sec layer change is just not something I can put up with.
Remember its not necessarily a problem with the Pioneer - I still have not ascertained that yet so if you can be patient...

hot off the press Techtronics have just rang me regarding the return of the player and the guy is going to check with the technical department.... so I should have some news shortly. If they come up trumps on this I will say so - it seems only fair.

[Bapapapa]

hot off the press Techtronics have just rang me

:eek:

/faints

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by Bapapapa
hot off the press Techtronics have just rang me

:eek:

/faints
You weren't as shocked as I was m8!! :D

[Mr Furious]

Right I have some news which may shock many of you on this forum.

Techtronics returned the call within 20 minutes, and the guy stated that he had spoken to both the Techtronics and Pioneer support. Apparently the length of time required to change the layer depends on the disc in question and how the disc is manufactured. Of course we all know that different machines will handle the same change differently (which I pointed out). This means that Techtronics do not consider the player faulty.

Anyway, the upshot is that I can return the player for a full refund. I would have had to pay the courier (which I would consider a fair condition) but I can use the one at my workplace free of charge.

I don't want to speak too soon, but apart from the fact that Techtronics have taken six days to reply to my mail, they have indeed come up trumps on this occasion!!!

Yes, I was shocked and pleasantly so. I know many people have problems with them, but I can only speak from personal experience and as I was ready to publically flame if they did not produce the goods - it seems only fair that I should explain that they provided good service here.

Here's hoping the return process runs smoothly... :)

[Bapapapa]

Blimey.

You don't work for them do you, Mr Furious?

:p

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by Bapapapa
Blimey.

You don't work for them do you, Mr Furious?

:p
He he. I'm a specially planted Mole... ;) :D

Seriously, I was very anxious yesterday and now I'm very relieved.

Thanks as well to you guys for warning me and making sure I was on my guard and prepared for the worst. I shall be hanging around here to get some advice on what player to get next ;)

Cheers

[Mikeb_78]

I do wonder if TT read these forums.

[kcxdev]

don't wanna sound like a pessimist but most of the complaints I've read about techtronics have been about refunds (rather than faulty goods - these were taken back promptly enough), but getting the money back is another thing :rolleyes:

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by kcxdev
don't wanna sound like a pessimist but most of the complaints I've read about techtronics have been about refunds (rather than faulty goods - these were taken back promptly enough), but getting the money back is another thing :rolleyes:
Yes, it has crossed my mind - BUT I have Barclaycard protection so if TT want to cause me grief over this then I will allow them to take it up with Barclaycard...

I shall keep you posted.

I've also wondered whether TT read these forums...

[Chris Greaney]

I'm very interested in purchasing this machine, and would value anyones opinion on it. The on screen MP3 handling has gotten my curiousity up. Also any pricing info (as in where to purchase on the cheap)

Thanks

[Bapapapa]

Also any pricing info (as in where to purchase on the cheap)

See the Upgrade Heaven 'Sticky' thread in the bargain forum for a decent price.

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by Chris Greaney
I'm very interested in purchasing this machine, and would value anyones opinion on it. The on screen MP3 handling has gotten my curiousity up. Also any pricing info (as in where to purchase on the cheap)

Thanks
The picture, sound and features on the Pioneer are absolutely superb.

The machine I had, the only complaint was the layer change which was sluggish at 1.7s. After having owned a Wharfedale that performs layer changes seamlessly I found this extremely intrusive and annoying (but I am a perfectionist when it comes to film viewing). A delay of 0.5s would have been okay.

A layer change should only happen once a disc (and sometimes never) so if you are used to a layer change pause or don't care then I can't recommend this machine high enough. Its excellent.

[nrobinson]

I have just upgraded from a wharfie 750 to this and I am v impressed. Totally quiet, wafer thin, lousy remote and dull menus, but I love it. sound / picture are a vast improvement.

I got mine for £179 from www.avland.com (inc)

[Chris Greaney]

I have just ordered the Pioneer DV444 and now am looking for any hacks that are out there.

I've also heard about the Paragon chip and am wondering is it worth it

Thanks

[At The Gates]

Sorry to hijack your thread :)

But what is the MP3 Playback like?
Does it play VBR MP3s ok?
Does it display the ID3 tag information on the players display or only on the TV?

The reason i ask is that the MP3 playback on the Cyberhome machine is rubbish and a novelty at best.

Thanks :D

[Chris Greaney]

I've just ordered this and wont get my hands on it till next week. But everything that I've read so far seems to indicate that this model handles MP3's the best. It does on screen display of your MP3's (but only 8.3 format) and it handles directory structures. I have also read that it only shows the first 255 files/directories in the root directory - but this can be handled by using directories. I hope this helps and please understand that this is all hearsay I have yet to actually touch this machine (I live in the west of Ireland and have to depend on reviews and mail order to keep abreast of things.)

[zubeir]

What's this about the 1.7seconds delay on layer change,is this true?

[Chris Greaney]

I still do not have this unit in my hands as of yet, and the only place that I have heard of this delay is on this forum. So I can not support nor deny this delay.


I'm still looking for hacks on this unit.

Thanks

[Mr Furious]

It is on my machine and one other guy on this thread says that his delays for 1+ seconds.

Most people I've asked said there was a delay of 0.5s - but of course its all dependent on how long we guess the delay is. I actually timed mine (not very scientifically) and it consistently came out at 1.7s.

There is still a possibility that my machine was faulty - so see if you can test the player for its layer change capability.

[kcxdev]

Originally posted by Chris Greaney
I have just ordered the Pioneer DV444 and now am looking for any hacks that are out there.

I've also heard about the Paragon chip and am wondering is it worth it

Thanks

the 444 (and all other pionners) can't be hacked (by a remote), they have to be chipped (or thru a firmware modification).

[Justin]

Originally posted by Chris Greaney
I have just ordered the Pioneer DV444 and now am looking for any hacks that are out there.

I've also heard about the Paragon chip and am wondering is it worth it

Thanks

If you`ve just ordered it, cancel and buy it modded, as theres no hacks on Pioneers.

[Cali]

... a 444 from UpgradeHeaven - I've only had it a few weeks and haven't noticed any extra long layer changes (although I did have a Pioneer 525 before so maybe I'm less sensitive to them!)

I'll try and give Gladiator and or Godfather II (R1 & R2 repectively) a spin this w/e and time the layer change - any idea how far in they occur?

[Mr Furious]

Cali

Thanks. The chapter and time positions are as follows:

Gladiator (R2) - Its Chapter 14 73:24 : Lucilla gives Commodus a tonic to drink and just after he drinks it there is a close up of Lucilla's profile - thats where it freezes.

Godfather II (R2) - Disc 1 - Chapter 10 - 5:47 (the scene as Pantangeli walks into his house where Michael is waiting for him). The scene freezes as Michael's 'thug' turns to look at Pantangeli as he enters the house from the outside.

I (and I'm sure a number of prospective purchasers of this machine) would be very interested in the result. :)

Thanks

[zubeir]

Right,I'm gonna order one today :-)

[Mr Furious]

Well, let me know what the layer change times are when you get it. :)

[zubeir]

Gonna pick mine up tomorrow,so I'll let you know asap Mr Furious & I emailed Pioneer on Wednesday evening & got a really qucik reply. They said that there is no problem with layer change on the 444

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by zubeir
Gonna pick mine up tomorrow,so I'll let you know asap Mr Furious & I emailed Pioneer on Wednesday evening & got a really qucik reply. They said that there is no problem with layer change on the 444
I'd really appreciate that... especially with that information from Pioneer.

I'm getting a refund from Techtronics, but as I like the machine so much I'd be interested in putting it back on my potential machines list if you find the layer change is okay. If you could use a stopwatch of some sort to get a reasonable idea of what the time (if any) for the layer change is that would be even better.

Cheers m8. Hope your new player is everything you want and you don't get the grief I've had! ;)

[zubeir]

Right Mr Furious,just picked up my player from www.dvdmagic.net based in Leicester,because they are based locally to me I went to them,great advice & service too. Spoke to the chap there about the layer change & he said the layer change on majority of the models are around about 0.7 to 1 sec,checked the demo model out connected to a huge 36" telly. The change was quicker than my old Tosh SD100 so I'm happy. The Sony's are the quickest with the layer change,but don't forget that their players are nowhere near as good as the Pioneers.

[zubeir]

O.k. Mr Furious,just tried Gladiator R2 on Chapter 14,layer change on 73:24sec & just a slight usual pause on change & pretty quick at that,but perfectly satisfactory. Hope this helps.

This player does really kick ass,best thing since sliced bread.

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by zubeir
O.k. Mr Furious,just tried Gladiator R2 on Chapter 14,layer change on 73:24sec & just a slight usual pause on change & pretty quick at that,but perfectly satisfactory. Hope this helps.

This player does really kick ass,best thing since sliced bread.
Thanks zubeir - very, very interesting. I'm just going to have to playtest this machine again I think.

:)

[zubeir]

Have techtronics given you a refund yet?

[Mr Furious]

I'm sending it back via courier today... :)

[zubeir]

Let me know how things go.

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by zubeir
The Sony's are the quickest with the layer change,but don't forget that their players are nowhere near as good as the Pioneers.

Nowhere near as good?! Who told you that little gem then?, Justin & the MD of Pioneer?

:brickwall

[zubeir]

Don't get me wrong,the Sony's are good but Pioneer has always had the edge,on performance+features. Sometimes You just pay that little extra for the Sony Brand.

Check out the general reviews of Pioneer & Sony players.

[Cable Monkey]

I have to admit I have never allowed myself to be too heavily influenced by reviews. While they are a reasonable pointer, they are still influenced by preference towards those brands that spend a lot in advertising... I have a Sony and I know its weaknesses. My best mate has a Pioneer, and I know its weaknesses. Ultimately, I will probably go for another Sony and my mate, a Pioneer. It is all about personal preferences, not what some guy says who gets paid as a result of saying good things about a given make/model.

[Justin]

Originally posted by robbiejm


Nowhere near as good?! Who told you that little gem then?, Justin & the MD of Pioneer?

:brickwall


!cuse me? Its called hands on experiance, and no I wasn`t responsable.....


Justin

(A Sony DVD9000ES owner....).

[Cali]

:confused:

Finally managed to check out the layer changes.... and I'd say that both changes were probably around a second, although it didn't seem as long as 1.7 secs - didn't really manage to get it any more accurate than that I'm afraid - damn tricky things to time! Didn't seem excessive tho based on my previous Pioneer ownership...

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by Cali
:confused:

Finally managed to check out the layer changes.... and I'd say that both changes were probably around a second, although it didn't seem as long as 1.7 secs - didn't really manage to get it any more accurate than that I'm afraid - damn tricky things to time! Didn't seem excessive tho based on my previous Pioneer ownership...
I managed to find a friendly hi-fi dealer yesterday, and he had a Pioneer 444 and was happy to let me test the player with Gladiator. The layer change was exactly the same as my now returned machine.

Like I said, I was timing using a stopwatch, so not very scientific. But every time I did it, it came to 1.7s - but of course there is a reasonably large scope for error.

I think if you are upgrading from a machine that already has a longish layer change then the Pioneer is probably fine. However, if like me, you are used to a seamless change (from the Wharfedale) its really difficult to get used to.

The guy in the shop was surprised at the length of the change and he said they'd sold a lot of 444's and no-one had brought one back. He also tried the 545 and that had a similar length of time for the layer change, and as another test we tried one of the budget Philips machines which froze just before the point the Pioneers did, but was perhaps slightly quicker about it.

Thanks Cali

[Mr Furious]

**UPDATE**

Well, the DVD player was returned to Techtronics last Monday (10th December) via a courier and I my Barclaycard has not been refunded as yet (5 working days are now complete).

I will ring them tomorrow to see whats happening.

Some of you out there will have a knowing smile of course... ;) ... but we'll see what happens! :(

[Alanok]

I am in a slight dilemma as I am looking for a new TV (House of Fraser have been faffing about with my order so need to look around again) and Techtronics are the cheapest for a Panasonic 32PL10C. Do I order or do I listen to my head and give wide berth. Hope you get your problem sorted.

[zubeir]

why not try www.empiredirect.co.uk forget about Techtronics.

[Alanok]

Originally posted by zubeir
why not try www.empiredirect.co.uk forget about Techtronics.

Cheers for the tip Zubeir and I have already seen the light. Just ordered the Panny 32PL10C from them yesterday afternoon for the bargain price of £868.18 delivered with stand:) Only problem being they can't get one to me before the first week of Jan:(