Just what the hell is Lucas up to? [Archive]

gZa

16-11-2001, 14:19

<CENTER>A furious lightsaber duel is under way. DARTH VADER is backing off LUKE SKYWALKER towards the end of the gantry. A quick move by Vader chops off Luke's hand! It goes spinning off into the ventilation shaft.

Luke backs away. He looks down, and realizes there's nowhere to go but straight down.

VADER
Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.

LUKE
He told me enough. He told me you killed him!

VADER
No! I am your father!

LUKE
That's not true! That's impossible!

VADER
Search your feelings...you know it to be true!

LUKE
NO!

VADER
Yes it is true, and you know something else? You know that brass droid of yours?

LUKE
Threepio?

VADER
Yes, Threepio. I built him when I was 7 years old.

LUKE
No!

VADER
Seven years old! And what have you done? Look at yourself, no hand, no job, and couldn't even levitate your own ship out of the swamp.

LUKE
I destroyed your precious Death Star!

VADER
When you were 20! When I was 10, I single-handedly destroyed a Trade Federation Control ship!

LUKE
Well it's not my fault.

VADER
Oh, here we go... "Poor me, my father never gave me what I wanted for birthday, boo hoo, my daddy's a Dark Lord of the Sith...waaah, waah."

LUKE
Shut up!

VADER
Your a slacker! By the time I was your age, I had exterminated the Jedi Knights!

LUKE
I used to race my T-16 through Beggar's Canyon!

VADER
Oh, for the love of the Emperor! 10 years old, winner of the Boonta Eve Open. Only human ever to fly a Pod Racer, right here baby!

(Luke looks down the shaft. Takes a step toward it.)

VADER
I was wrong. You're not my kid. I don't know whose you are but you sure ain't mine.

(Luke takes a step off the platform, hesitates, then plunges down the shaft. Darth Vader looks after him.)

VADER
GET A HAIRCUT!</CENTER>

16-11-2001, 14:39

LOL...:clap:

Genius!

Io

Nirvana

16-11-2001, 17:57

J J. Gittes

16-11-2001, 18:56

:D LOL :D

I-BERT

16-11-2001, 19:07

Originally posted by Garry Cowell
<CENTER>A furious lightsaber duel is under way. DARTH VADER is backing off LUKE SKYWALKER towards the end of the gantry. A quick move by Vader chops off Luke's hand! It goes spinning off into the ventilation shaft.

Luke backs away. He looks down, and realizes there's nowhere to go but straight down.

VADER
Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.

LUKE
He told me enough. He told me you killed him!

VADER
No! I am your father!

LUKE
That's not true! That's impossible!

VADER
Search your feelings...you know it to be true!

LUKE
NO!

VADER
Yes it is true, and you know something else? You know that brass droid of yours?

LUKE
Threepio?

VADER
Yes, Threepio. I built him when I was 7 years old.

LUKE
No!

VADER
Seven years old! And what have you done? Look at yourself, no hand, no job, and couldn't even levitate your own ship out of the swamp.

LUKE
I destroyed your precious Death Star!

VADER
When you were 20! When I was 10, I single-handedly destroyed a Trade Federation Control ship!

LUKE
Well it's not my fault.

VADER
Oh, here we go... "Poor me, my father never gave me what I wanted for birthday, boo hoo, my daddy's a Dark Lord of the Sith...waaah, waah."

LUKE
Shut up!

VADER
Your a slacker! By the time I was your age, I had exterminated the Jedi Knights!

LUKE
I used to race my T-16 through Beggar's Canyon!

VADER
Oh, for the love of the Emperor! 10 years old, winner of the Boonta Eve Open. Only human ever to fly a Pod Racer, right here baby!

(Luke looks down the shaft. Takes a step toward it.)

VADER
I was wrong. You're not my kid. I don't know whose you are but you sure ain't mine.

(Luke takes a step off the platform, hesitates, then plunges down the shaft. Darth Vader looks after him.)

VADER
GET A HAIRCUT!</CENTER>

VADER -By the way,I know what you are getting for Christmas.

LUKE How?

VADER I've felt your presents.:D

nigel.prescott

16-11-2001, 20:21

Originally posted by Garry Cowell
(Luke takes a step off the platform, hesitates, then plunges down the shaft. Darth Vader looks after him.)
...........
...........
VADER
GET A HAIRCUT!</CENTER> [/B]

FFS! The funniest thing I haveread in months!

RES999

16-11-2001, 20:25

Originally posted by Garry Cowell
<CENTER>

VADER
Yes it is true, and you know something else? You know that brass droid of yours?

LUKE
Threepio?

VADER
Yes, Threepio. I built him when I was 7 years old.

LUKE
No!

VADER
Seven years old! And what have you done? Look at yourself, no hand, no job, and couldn't even levitate your own ship out of the swamp.

LUKE
I destroyed your precious Death Star!

VADER
When you were 20! When I was 10, I single-handedly destroyed a Trade Federation Control ship!

LUKE
Well it's not my fault.

VADER
Oh, here we go... "Poor me, my father never gave me what I wanted for birthday, boo hoo, my daddy's a Dark Lord of the Sith...waaah, waah."

LUKE
Shut up!

VADER
Your a slacker! By the time I was your age, I had exterminated the Jedi Knights!

LUKE
I used to race my T-16 through Beggar's Canyon!

VADER
Oh, for the love of the Emperor! 10 years old, winner of the Boonta Eve Open. Only human ever to fly a Pod Racer, right here baby!

(Luke looks down the shaft. Takes a step toward it.)

VADER
I was wrong. You're not my kid. I don't know whose you are but you sure ain't mine.

(Luke takes a step off the platform, hesitates, then plunges down the shaft. Darth Vader looks after him.)

VADER
GET A HAIRCUT!</CENTER>

Lucas should film that scene just for the DVD! Would make one hell of a special feature!:clap:

Davester

17-11-2001, 14:07

Well, my vcd trilogy is going to be looked after! Why georgie, why?

bddidier

17-11-2001, 15:26

Originally posted by Garry Cowell
[B]<CENTER>A furious lightsaber duel is under way. DARTH VADER is backing off LUKE SKYWALKER towards the end of the gantry. A quick move by Vader chops off Luke's hand! It goes spinning off into the ventilation shaft.

Luke backs away. He looks down, and realizes there's nowhere to go but straight down.

Brilliant, thanks!

Ben Martin

17-11-2001, 17:05

why are so many people quoteing garry's entire post in their replies?! we just read it thanks! :rolleyes:

anyway, back to james' original topic .... i know he means. my initial reaction is to groan, roll my eyes and place my head firmly in my hands.

... then i calm down and start to think the whole thing through. and i actually don't think we have anything to worry about because:

- george lucas can never take the original trilogy away from us (and i don't see any firm evidence he wants to). we can choose to watch the original versions like we do already.

- at least this time he is making no bones about the fact that he's meddling. okay, we'd rather he didn't, but at least he isn't saying "this is how i always intended it to be .... honest!" while we all scratch our beards! this time he is openly acknowledging, albeit maybe only because he has no choice, that he is making 'adjustments' and at least he has a logical reason (regardless of whether we feel it's valid) for doing so.

- i actually think this makes it more likely that the original versions of episodes 4-6 will be released on DVD along with the "saga editions" (my phrase, but i think that's the most accurate way to refer to them) ... and that is definitely a good thing!

so why more likely? well, the more george changes the originals, the further the new versions move away from them and they become more obviously distinct in their own right. we worry that he won't release the originals because he doesn't want people to mistakenly think that they are his final view of those movies as far as they fit into the whole saga. with the prequels all out there, and the originals modified to include elements that tie them in more closely with those prequels, it will be patently obvious to all but the most stupid that the originals are 'different' (better!) and not 'officially' part of the overall saga. therefore, it will be almost like lucas is presenting three extra/different movies on the discs rather than alternate versions of the 'main attractions'. that's my theory anyway! :)

of course, we can all then watch the originals. and as long as we get those ... who cares what other versions he releases?

there's also the possibility that he actually "gets it right" (whatever that is) this time and we actually like at least some of the additions/alterations? unlikely based on previous experience, but we'd soon be singing a different tune.

... and in 2006/2007 we'll be desperate to see something new, however lame, having all left the theater after episode III finished with the cold, unpleasant realisation that it's all over.

RES999

18-11-2001, 00:41

/puts on flame proof jacket.

I reckon that Episode 3 will be the best of all 6 star wars films.

What I can't understand, why is it so important if he changes the originals slightly?

Also which 'original' are you hoping to be on DVD? The version made in 1977 or the recent special edition?

Gozer

18-11-2001, 01:01

We want the originals, unaltered and totally pure.

RES999

18-11-2001, 01:15

Originally posted by Gozer
We want the originals, unaltered and totally pure.

What no DTS 6.1 soundtrack? So you'd be happy with stereo?:p

feverpitch96

18-11-2001, 07:22

Originally posted by *james*
Worst fears (sort of) confirmed...

(from Empire)
"Lucas has apparently finished writing Episiode III, and a slightly unexpected update on the possibility of Episodes VII, IIX and IX was also reported. According to E!, Lucas plans to take 20 years off after Episode III - making him about 80 - and only then will he think about the possibility of another three instalments."

Good god, why?

I'd be more worried, in the short term, that an industry bible like Empire can't count beyond seven in roman numerals. :D
"IIX"?? What is that? THX improved to make more money?

robbiejm

18-11-2001, 08:52

Originally posted by RES999

What no DTS 6.1 soundtrack? So you'd be happy with stereo?:p

I'd be happy with a mono soundtrack as long the movies didn't have that CGI crap in them.

robbiejm

18-11-2001, 09:04

Originally posted by RES999
/puts on flame proof jacket.

I reckon that Episode 3 will be the best of all 6 star wars films.

You base that assumption on what exactly?, the appalling hollow, soul less cgi fest that is TPM, the up and coming, probably equally as poor Episode 2. Or the crappy effects which have ruined the original trilogy?. The future doesn't bode well for Star Wars, especially while McCallum has a say in the matter.

What I can't understand, why is it so important if he changes the originals slightly?

He's ruined them already, thats why!, and the more he tampers with them, the worse they get. Tell me Greedo shooting 1st is a good idea. :rolleyes:, tell me Jabba The Hut didn't look absolutely shocking in Episode 4, and thats just two examples.

Also which 'original' are you hoping to be on DVD? The version made in 1977 or the recent special edition?

Tough decision that one, but seeing as the so called 'special editions' are a crime against film making, I'll be sticking with the best versions. i.e the originals.

RES999

18-11-2001, 10:58

what is wrong with the added cgi?

Lenny Nero

18-11-2001, 11:10

Originally posted by RES999
what is wrong with the added cgi?

:brickwall

Are you looking to get killed man?
Be careful, onslaught is coming... :p

Davester

18-11-2001, 12:33

Yuck! I have just watched the episode $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 2 tralierand am not impressed by Anakin's acting. Reminds me of my junior schools Christmas play :(

Davester

18-11-2001, 12:36

Madm@tt

18-11-2001, 16:01

Originally posted by Garry Cowell
A furious lightsaber duel is under way. DARTH VADER is backing off LUKE SKYWALKER towards the end of the gantry. A quick move by Vader chops off Luke's hand! It goes spinning off into the ventilation shaft. Yes, yes we do...

JamesK

18-11-2001, 19:14

just thought I'd say that the originals are far worse than the Special Editions. they ad so much to the film. If you're gona say the SEs aren't as good cos of the effects then your talking out of your arse. Like the original effects were any good anyway!!!

However George Lucas wants the films to be thats the way I'll always watch them (as long as this version is available at the time). I don't see many people being so upset over the Direcetors cut of blade Runner.

Stop being so sentimental and get REAL. Its his film, he an do what he likes.

by the way Garry cowwell - that was very funny.:clap:

GarethR

18-11-2001, 20:35

FWIW, the news of even-more-rejigged Episodes 4, 5 and 6 isn't actually new - Lucas announced his intention of creating "Archive Versions" of the original trilogy almost a year ago.

jamesking420 wrote :
Like the original effects were any good anyway!!!

That's just a troll, right? :rolleyes:

I think most of the the 1977 SW FX are still absolutely fantastic, and it's really only the dodgy stop-motion parts (e.g. the holographic board game played by Chewie and the droids) that have obviously dated.

The shame is, Lucas appears to want the newest version of any given film to be the only one available to the public - hence, you haven't been able to buy the original versions of the original trilogy (except as remaindered stock) since the SEs came out, and you won't be able to buy the SEs once the Archive Versions come out.

I wouldn't care what Lucas did to the old films as long as it was still possible to buy DVD versions of the original cuts, but sadly it looks like it won't happen :(

Roberto

18-11-2001, 22:29

Originally posted by jamesking420
just thought I'd say that the originals are far worse than the Special Editions. they ad so much to the film. If you're gona say the SEs aren't as good cos of the effects then your talking out of your arse. Like the original effects were any good anyway!!!For me only two shots didn't work and they were both in Episode 4. Greedo shooting was awfal, and they should have spent alot more time in getting the Jubba sence right.

However George Lucas wants the films to be thats the way I'll always watch them (as long as this version is available at the time). I don't see many people being so upset over the Direcetors cut of blade Runner.Was CGI added to that movie? In fact nothing was added, things were taken away and made the movie better for it!

Stop being so sentimental and get REAL. Its his film, he an do what he likes.:rolleyes:

JamesK

18-11-2001, 23:41

Originally posted by Roberto
Was CGI added to that movie? In fact nothing was added, things were taken away and made the movie better for it!

:rolleyes:

It doesn't matter, I didn't think what we were discussing was whether or not CGI was added, but whether the changes, whatever they may be made the film better or worse.

And if all you can do is :rolleyes: to the fact that it is george Lucas' move and he should be able to do what he wants then that kinda proves the point doesn't it???

jmoates

19-11-2001, 00:04

IIX?? No such number. George means VIII, as in Henry Ve-ay-yi-yi, the bloke with IIIIX wives.

Personally I'm surprised George and those friendly folk at Fox aren't milking the situation for everything.

Star Wars - Classic Edition - 1977 version, no revisions, no extras.
TESB - Classic Edition - 1981 version (as above)
ROTJ - Classic Edition - 1983 version (as above)

then six months later

SW - Revised Edition - the version currently on VHS, no extras.
TESB - Revised Edition - the version currently on VHS, no extras.
ROTJ - Revised Edition - the version currently on VHS, no extras.

then

Star Wars Classic Edition SE - first release, but with 2nd disk of extras.
TESB - ditto
ROTJ - ditto

then

Star Wars Ultimate Edition - Classic and revised versions on one disk with second disk of extras.
TESB - ditto
ROTJ - ditto

then

Star Wars Trilogy Ultimate Box Set - as above three disks sets with an additional three disks of must-have extras.

And that sinister "bwahahaha" noise in the background is George Lucas and Rupert Murdoch skipping down the road to make another deposit in their Gringott's account.

Vinyl-Pants

19-11-2001, 00:15

OK, star wars ignoramus here;

What is the difference between the 1977 Star Wars the remastered Star Wars that was re-released a couple of years ago in the cinemas? Was it just a case or...erm...remastering the print and sound effects or was the film changed in more drastic ways?

JamesK

19-11-2001, 00:20

Originally posted by Vinyl-Pants
OK, star wars ignoramus here;

What is the difference between the 1977 Star Wars the remastered Star Wars that was re-released a couple of years ago in the cinemas? Was it just a case or...erm...remastering the print and sound effects or was the film changed in more drastic ways?

there are also some fairly minor improvements made to the film, like Jabba is now an Alien (big fat thing) and in the story, Greedo shoots at Hans before Hans shoots him.

Richie

19-11-2001, 01:57

my 2 cents (as I have nothing better to do right now!):

I do prefer the SE of TESB, simply because it fixes the awkward perspective of that shot of Leia looking out of the window in cloud city! :rolleyes:
other than that, the film was always perfect anyway!

As for ANH - well, as mentioned above the additions in the SE are **** poor. There is one change I'd like to see in the 'Archive Edition' though, and that's to make Darth Vader's original entrance come across as even remotely dramatic! Seriously! Lucas hasn't got a clue when it comes to directing. He didn't have a clue in the 70s and he still doesn't have a clue now. I won't even start on his writing skills...

His business skills on the other hand :clap:

Analog Kid

19-11-2001, 09:34

Originally posted by jamesking420
Like the original effects were any good anyway!!!

I have the original (unmolested) Star Wars trilogy on VHS (the THX remasters which were available shortly before the SE appeared) and I have to say that for a film made in 1977 SW:ANH looks pretty impressive and for the most part the CGI reworking was unnecessary. I haven't watched the films repeatedly though so I'm not really in a position to comment on whether the SE's of TESB and ROTJ detract significantly from the originals.

Roberto

19-11-2001, 09:36

Originally posted by jamesking420

It doesn't matter, I didn't think what we were discussing was whether or not CGI was added, but whether the changes, whatever they may be made the film better or worse.

And if all you can do is :rolleyes: to the fact that it is george Lucas' move and he should be able to do what he wants then that kinda proves the point doesn't it??? James, you obvously think that all the changes in ANH was an improvement. Why? Do you think that the greedo sence was an improvement, how? Don't you see that
a) A major charater development that exisited for 20years suddenly changed the Han Solo we all grew up with?
b) They made a **** poor job of what they were trying to do anyway!!

robbiejm

19-11-2001, 10:25

Originally posted by jamesking420
just thought I'd say that the originals are far worse than the Special Editions. they ad so much to the film. If you're gona say the SEs aren't as good cos of the effects then your talking out of your arse

The new effects don't add anything to the film, they weren't needed. How can you possibly say the SEs are better than the originals?. So come on, how exactly do they 'add so much to the film'?.

Oh and while you're coming up with reasons, remember how appalling Jabba The Hutt looks in ANH, and how Hans character is butchered by Greedo shooting 1st.

Like the original effects were any good anyway!!!

LOL, please please tell me you're joking?, you are joking, right?. In comparison 90% of the crap in The Phantom Menace looks exactly like what it is - a computer game, lacking any sort of depth or substance.

However George Lucas wants the films to be thats the way I'll always watch them (as long as this version is available at the time). I don't see many people being so upset over the Direcetors cut of blade Runner.

Stop being so sentimental and get REAL. Its his film, he an do what he likes.

It's nothing to do with being sentimental, it's about tampering with, and ultimately ruining classics. We can only pray that some way, somehow, Gary Kurtz comes back on board for episode 3 and saves the Star Wars saga before it ends up in the gutter with McCallum and Lucas.

Oh and I don't recall woeful, crappy cgi effects being added to Blade Runner, I also don't remember a character being completely changed in one flash of self-indulgent madness. Next you'll be telling us Ridley Scott should go back and add more aliens to Alien. :brickwall

robbiejm

19-11-2001, 10:37

The unecessary SE footage is summed up well here, from http://www.zingmagazine.com/zing4/reviews/48star.html:

'The principal problem with the new footage and effects work was how much it clashed with the older material, especially pre-existing scenes that had new, largely computer-generated, additions matted in. The Spartan Mos Eisley Spaceport of the first film of the trilogy was made into a bustling metropolitan center--more densely populated and more congested. In theory that would have been a great idea. But the new digitally-perfect Patrol Dewbacks looked sparklingly clean, the large computerized Jurassic Park rejects were far too precise and much too distinct against the dry, gritty backdrop of Tatooine, and even against the grainy, endearingly imperfect film the movie was shot on.

Furthermore--and the Mos Eisley scene is a perfect example--much of the new footage was done to indulgence, as if it was in competition with the story line it was supposed to complement. Luke, Obi-Wan, and the two droids pull into the city practically unnoticed as a computer-generated Jawa is thrown from its enormous reptilian mount, "comically" swinging helplessly in the air, clutching the animal's reins. Hovering droids dart about in a distracting fashion, disrupting the sense of urgency as Stormtroopers search the city for Luke and Obi-Wan.

The same holds true for scenes in Return Of The Jedi, particularly scenes in Jabba's Palace. There is of course the unendurable and pointless dance segment, coupled with more "comic relief" in the form of dopey alien back-up vocalists. And call me "Old School," but whose bright idea was it to replace the obviously superior original animatronic Sy Snootles and the Max Rebo Band with second-rate computer-generated impostors? They even changed the song and added another dippy digital singer who looked more irritatingly Muppet-like than the real Muppets that were actually used in the films.

There was relief in some of the subtler additions. A nice new shot of a hulking, corroded Sandcrawler inching along the Tatooine desert, some additional air traffic over Mos Eisley, a few more X-Wings in the raid on the Death Star. The material that didn't compete with the film itself was wonderful: it didn't hit you over the head with its newness, and it let the viewer take the scenery in at his or her own pace.

The needlessly indulgent inclusions unfortunately spilled over into other aspects of the film that might have been interesting in their own right. I was most excited at seeing the inclusion of out-takes omitted from the original cuts of the movies. But the Special Editions' tendency toward overkill helped to ruin even those. For example: one of the most talked about scenes in the Special Edition release of Star Wars took place on Tatooine, a dialogue between Han Solo and Jabba The Hutt. I couldn't wait to see this scene, to see what was being said, and how it fit into its originally-intended format. And, in addition, how it would serve as a plot point that would later (chronologically speaking, in Return Of The Jedi) become self-referential. The scenes had been filmed in 1977 with a fat guy in a vest as a stand-in for Jabba The Hutt, whose appearance hadn't yet been agreed upon and who would be matted over at a later date.

But the restored scene basically proved two points: the individuals responsible for matting over the new Jabba have no sense of subtlety, and more importantly, that sometimes out-takes are out-takes for a reason. To elaborate on the first point, there was one particularly irritating moment. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that somehow Jabba The Hutt is a svelte little worm in the first film, and that he started putting on the pounds somewhere between the scene with Han and his reappearance in The Return Of The Jedi. I'm willing to accept that he's much shorter than Han in the new version of Star Wars, whereas you could probably stuff fourteen Han Solos in the Jedi version of Jabba. But I drew the line at a completely indulgent moment when Han appears to be stepping on Jabba's tail, and of course Jabba winces convincingly because after all, why not take advantage of every opportunity to show off crappy computer-imaging effects? Was that little bit included as "comic relief?" It was stupid and irritated me probably more than it should have.

Questionable choices of effects aside, the inclusion of the scene with Han and Jabba was also pointless in the context of the storyline. The scene's dialogue mirrors an earlier scene with Han and the green-skinned bounty hunter Greedo, both scenes serving to establish Han's outstanding debt to Jabba. It's probable that both scenes were filmed, each one establishing the same point, with the intention of ultimately clipping one or the other. The inclusion of the omitted scene doesn't just fail to add anything to the film, it's positively redundant.'

Ben Martin

19-11-2001, 11:24

Originally posted by Richie
I do prefer the SE of TESB, simply because it fixes the awkward perspective of that shot of Leia looking out of the window in cloud city!

well, that never bothered me but fair enough, at least it was a pretty seamless change/modification. shame the same can't be said about changing vader's line "Bring me my shuttle" to "Alert the Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" and not using james earl jones for the voice!! :eek:

and then we find out why they changed it - pointless additional shots that break up the pacing of the superb final act (as well as chopping up the music) showing vader returning to his ship in excruciating tedious fashion. tedious because it is virtually identical to the opening of ROTJ (him coming down the ramp is identical).

i also hated the added close-up shots of people reacting (badly acting-wise) to lando's announcements, and thought the wampa stuff was pointless - it used to be like 'jaws', what you don't see being more scary.

that aside, i was very pleased with the clean-up job on the battle of hoth and loved the new shot of slave 1 flying through the junk after the falcon. he should have stuck exclusively to shots like that - very similar to the original effects with just a little more room for manoeuvre in camera movement.

JamesK

19-11-2001, 11:42

Originally posted by robbiejm
The new effects don't add anything to the film, they weren't needed. How can you possibly say the SEs are better than the originals?. So come on, how exactly do they 'add so much to the film'?.

they add to the film in that they change characters personalities(you said that yourself below), they change the way some characters look, (Jabba) making it again, a more interesting and captivating story - Oh yes, the reasons you mentioned below are perfect to discuss how the film was altered and.

Oh and while you're coming up with reasons, remember how appalling Jabba The Hutt looks in ANH, and how Hans character is butchered by Greedo shooting 1st.

LOL, please please tell me you're joking?, you are joking, right?. In comparison 90% of the crap in The Phantom Menace looks exactly like what it is - a computer game, lacking any sort of depth or substance.

It seems you are looking at the original trilogy with rose tinted glasses. Do you really believe that the shot of the droids marching Princess Amidala and here escorts around the city looked bad??? I'm more than happy to admit that the podrace seen wasn't exactly stunning graphics wise, but compared to the originals it was phenomenal. TPM as a film, also had a much more interesting and enrossing plot than the originals, intrigue (sp?) mystery (if you haven't sen the original trilogy - and as this is the FIRST film it shouldn't be taken that you have - I never watch films in reverse order if they are available correctly). It also set up alot of background, the Jedis, how 'the force' works, the vaiety of different planets in the galaxy, the trade federation etc. Generally a comprhensive and diverse plot.

It's nothing to do with being sentimental, it's about tampering with, and ultimately ruining classics. We can only pray that some way, somehow, Gary Kurtz comes back on board for episode 3 and saves the Star Wars saga before it ends up in the gutter with McCallum and Lucas.

Its HIS FILM. he OWNS it (for want of a better word - copyright or whatever). he can do what ever the hell he likes. If you don't like the 'saga editions' (or whatever they are called when he is finished) then don't watch them, instead watch the hacked unfinished original releases - cos you like the story better. If thats what YOU want to do, then thats fine, but don't say hes wrong for doing stuf to his own film. Would he have a go at you for spray painting your car (if you wanted to - strange analogy I know, I'm tired)??

Oh and I don't recall woeful, crappy cgi effects being added to Blade Runner, I also don't remember a character being completely changed in one flash of self-indulgent madness. Next you'll be telling us Ridley Scott should go back and add more aliens to Alien. :brickwall

the CGI is NOT what we are talking about - at least it shouldn't be. We are talking about the film and the improvements to the story etc. If you ARE only watching for the effects then I'd definitely say TPM is better for that - but surely you can;t have double standards, saying onwe minute that you hate the CGI and the next minute that the CGI is what matters so much. If you don't like it ignore it, just watch the film for the story.

Grover

19-11-2001, 11:49

I agree with much that has been said, the Special Editions just seem to throw up as many problems as they solve and the CG effect 'add-ons' look dated already. Personally, I'd have preferred Lucas to use the SE release simply to clean-up and remaster the original film and let a large proportion of SW fans see the films at the cinema for the first time. :)

robbiejm

19-11-2001, 12:47

Originally posted by jamesking420
they add to the film in that they change characters personalities(you said that yourself below), they change the way some characters look, (Jabba) making it again, a more interesting and captivating story - Oh yes, the reasons you mentioned below are perfect to discuss how the film was altered and.

LOL, Jabba looks crap and you know it, and nothing you say is going to change that fact. Also that particular scene adds nothing to episode 4, its simply not needed. How does it possibly make it a more captivating story?. Oh, and you must literally be one of only two people in the world who thinks Greedo shooting 1st was a good idea. :rolleyes:. 'More captivating story' my arse!

It seems you are looking at the original trilogy with rose tinted glasses. Do you really believe that the shot of the droids marching Princess Amidala and here escorts around the city looked bad??? I'm more than happy to admit that the podrace seen wasn't exactly stunning graphics wise, but compared to the originals it was phenomenal. TPM as a film, also had a much more interesting and enrossing plot than the originals

LOL, are you for real?, you're basically saying TPM is better than the original movies :nuts:, and what do you mean 'compared to the originals', most of the original effects are better, purely because real sets were used, real models were used etc. Which always look better than the computerised blue-screen abomination Lucas is using 90% of the time these days. Some of TPM looks good, but at the end of the day it's like watching a 100 minute commercial for the latest PS2 game, and a lot of it looks dated already, particularly the underwater scene.

intrigue (sp?) mystery (if you haven't sen the original trilogy - and as this is the FIRST film it shouldn't be taken that you have - I never watch films in reverse order if they are available correctly). It also set up alot of background, the Jedis, how 'the force' works, the vaiety of different planets in the galaxy, the trade federation etc. Generally a comprhensive and diverse plot.

I've never heard the TPM plot being described as 'comprehensive & diverse' but each to their own. It is a good idea to start with TPM though, because it means anything you see after has to be an improvement.

As for intrigue and mystery, eh?, George was so desperate plot-wise that he had to introduce C3-PO and R2-D2 at an early stage so that people would be immediately reminded of the original movies. Apart from Darth Maul and Watto most of the other characters are forgettable, and did anyone really care if the Gunghans got killed?, I sure didn't.

Its HIS FILM. he OWNS it (for want of a better word - copyright or whatever). he can do what ever the hell he likes. If you don't like the 'saga editions' (or whatever they are called when he is finished) then don't watch them, instead watch the hacked unfinished original releases - cos you like the story better. If thats what YOU want to do, then thats fine, but don't say hes wrong for doing stuf to his own film. Would he have a go at you for spray painting your car (if you wanted to - strange analogy I know, I'm tired)??

So basically what you're saying is that Lucas is beyond criticism, and that anything he touches turns to gold. :rolleyes:. You're also now calling them the 'hacked unfinished' versions!, oh dear. They were all completed the day they left the editing suite 20+ years ago. Half-arsed added bits deserve all the criticism they get.

the CGI is NOT what we are talking about - at least it shouldn't be. We are talking about the film and the improvements to the story etc. If you ARE only watching for the effects then I'd definitely say TPM is better for that - but surely you can;t have double standards, saying onwe minute that you hate the CGI and the next minute that the CGI is what matters so much. If you don't like it ignore it, just watch the film for the story.

This cgi is mostly crap in the TPM and it ruins episodes 4 (especially 4), 5 and 6. So how is that double standards? :confused:.

First off, you haven't pointed out any 'improvements to the story'. I also disagree that the TPM is better for the effects anyway, but thats not the point. The point is, even if I was watching the SEs 'just for the story' it's impossible to enjoy them because the poorly executed added bits are so intrusive and unecessary. That is why the SEs do not work. :brickwall

FaustBos

19-11-2001, 14:46

MeSa thinks George Lukas has just plain gone insane.

He alone is the single strongest argument FOR bootlegging.

Jim

RES999

19-11-2001, 14:51

How did greedo shooting first affect the film?

Roberto

19-11-2001, 17:05

come on james!?

vila

19-11-2001, 17:59

the other thing they're doing for the extra footage is re shooting the emporers scene in ESB with the actor in ROTJ/Trilogy1.

At the end of the day these are 100% Georges films, if you dont like something stop moaning - you dont have to watch it.

Analog Kid

19-11-2001, 18:09

Originally posted by vila
the other thing they're doing for the extra footage is re shooting the emporers scene in ESB with the actor in ROTJ/Trilogy1.

Erm, :confused: But I thought that the Emperor has always been played by Ian McDiarmid?

cervaro

19-11-2001, 18:32

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Erm, :confused: But I thought that the Emperor has always been played by Ian McDiarmid?

He didn't appear as the Emperor until Return of The Jedi.

Given that Lucas is unlikely to ever release the original versions of EP4-EP6 on DVD, we should concentrate on what we'd like done with the Special Editions as they stand.

For what it's worth, I'd like all the SE CGI sequences redone as necessary to make then fit in better with the original material. The Greedo scene was poorly changed, given the obvious jerk of Han Solo to his right to miss getting shot. The Jabba sequence needs smartening up.

As to adding more material, there were quite a few bits in the PBS Radio Series that were never in the original Star Wars movie. It would be interesting to see the pieces with Luke and his friends on Tatooine cleaned up and added to the so called 'Archive' editions. Talk of introducing Bail Organa makes sense to me as all we see is the destruction of Alderaan. Putting in a few scenes set on the planet would add a little context to their existence.

At the end of the day, I'll be happiest when I have legit copies of EP1 - EP6 on DVD to watch whenever I want.

Ms_Croft

19-11-2001, 19:12

If George Lucas is going to be adding 'additional' footage to his first Star Wars trilogy. I hope he also considers changing The Phantom Menace, I suggest getting rid of that irritating Jar Jar Binks, how about a slow torture death scene? Heh, heh, heh
http://www.plaudersmilies.de/rough/plasmawhore.gif

Davester

19-11-2001, 21:46

Just watched TPM and it is poor. The film has a reasonably good idea behind it and there are good performances from Neeson, Mcgregor, Darth Maul bloke, but the film fails for a number of reasons IMO:

1. poor acting - by anakin - he is pretty awful (like most child actors), Portman, jackson, and others are also pretty poor. A result ofLucas directing?

2. Too much of the first 3 films - ie. r2d2 and so on. How desperate was he?!?! Jaba, Tatooine, and various other small characters.

3. Jar jar binks - nough said :brickwall :nuts:

4. sfx are not that impressive. Would have preferred more models and fewer PS2 characters.

5. Too many "soft" bits - ie. pointless personal interactions, usually involving Anakin.

6. Too much rubbish - best exampl, the commentators at the pod race - as soon as there is some momentum they break it up with some pointless comment.

7. mThe fight sequences did not get enough momentum - ie. teh first meeting with neeson and maul.

8. the ending when anakin blows up the space ship - utter ****.

The se's are not too bad. There is some rubbish added in, ie the band at Jabba's. As far as i can see lucas is just messing for teh sake of it!

Gozer

19-11-2001, 22:04

Can't watch all ove ROTJ now coz of that god awful song, was watching it with me dad when the SE videos came out in '97 and had to leave the room in embarrasment for 5 mins.

Of all the SEs Empire is best, the stuff that "enhances" Cloud City (more windows etc.) that aren't completely new. Over the last couple of years I've become to dislike CGI effects. While in the past they were great to look at, Jurassic Park, that blended with the background this isn't the case anymore. While watching TPM dvd a couple of weeks ago and the clips from Harry Potter on the tv, all the CGI makes the film look flat and really out of place. They don't feel real, unlike the Dinos in JP.

Lucas seems to have left all self control. When making the originals he had a limited amount of cash and time, and had to make a good film coz of the pressure. But now that he's got more money than God he can essentially do what he wants. No one is there to stop him and he has no restrictions, so he over indulges himself and does things that only George likes. Everyone who works for him are either lifelong Star Wars fans who are too in awe that they are working on a SW movie to stop him or are earning so much money they don't give a flying monkey ****!

RES999

19-11-2001, 22:24

The special editions aren't that bad. Gees! It's just a frigging film!:rolleyes:

Roberto

20-11-2001, 04:18

Originally posted by RES999
The special editions aren't that bad. Gees! It's just a frigging film!:rolleyes: This is a movie discussion forum, where we discuss movies. :rolleyes: if you don't like, find a discussion forum on washing machines or something.

dean richardson

20-11-2001, 09:24

people suprise me all the time.
in this thread you have people stating they hate SE's and leave it alone, and in other threads they moan that a DVD is released and later on a SE with extra scenes added they want the new disc.!

i think star wars creates emotion because (like Lucus) we feel we own it too. it means something to most people. i own all the se on vhs and the extra scenes add nothing nor do the take anything away imo. i mean greedo shooting first hardly ruins the film, its not as if the death star doesnot blow up and vader wins is it!

we only notice because we have seen the film so many times and could spot any addition, and nobody like change do they!

Roberto

20-11-2001, 09:41

Originally posted by dean richardson

i think star wars creates emotion because (like Lucus) we feel we own it too. it means something to most people. i own all the se on vhs and the extra scenes add nothing nor do the take anything away imo. i mean greedo shooting first hardly ruins the film, its not as if the death star doesnot blow up and vader wins is it!

we only notice because we have seen the film so many times and could spot any addition, and nobody like change do they! Well said, that's why it has such heated discussions

RoboCop4

20-11-2001, 10:21

I'm not wholly against the 1997 SEs. IMHO the 'cleaned up' effects (e.g. the Death Star battle in ANH, Cloud City in ESB, the revised ROTJ ending, even the Mos Eisley stuff in ANH - apart from the animal thingy walking in front of the camera as Luke and Ben are talking to te stormtroopers) are a vast improvemenbt over the originals.

What did annoy me were the superfluous plot and character alterations (such as the oft mentioned reworked Greedo and Jabba sequences in ANH, and Luke's scream as he falls down the shaft in ESB). None of these were necessary, and none were done to tie the films in with the yet-unmade prequels. It seems to be an example of George's self-indulgence ("they're my films; I can do what the ****** I like with them!").

I just hope that he doesn't do the same meddling with the Indiana Jones trilogy - perhaps that's why the DVDs haven't been heard of yet... :(

nick69

20-11-2001, 11:23

Originally posted by Roberto
This is a movie discussion forum, where we discuss movies. :rolleyes: if you don't like, find a discussion forum on washing machines or something.

Ooooh handbags!!:D

cervaro

20-11-2001, 11:24

Originally posted by RoboCop4
I just hope that he doesn't do the same meddling with the Indiana Jones trilogy - perhaps that's why the DVDs haven't been heard of yet... :(

I doubt it somehow, given he was only the Producer on those movies, and Spielberg the Director. That said, the latter has gone back and altered E.T., but I can't really see where he'd want to fiddle with the Indy trilogy. Well maybe the airplane sequence in Last Crusade as the effects there weren't perfect.

Spooksta

20-11-2001, 11:24

How about they redo the Fight between Obi and Darth from EP4
Looking at it after EP1 it looks silly.

Roberto

20-11-2001, 11:49

Originally posted by nick69

Ooooh handbags!!:D :D

robbiejm

20-11-2001, 12:18

Originally posted by Spooksta
How about they redo the Fight between Obi and Darth from EP4
Looking at it after EP1 it looks silly.

Why stop there!, if I was Lucas I'd delete the master tapes, or get Rick McCallum to do it. Then he could just start over and make Episodes 4,5 and 6 look like computer games too. At least then the whole saga would fit in with TPM and be consistantly crap as it went on.

bddidier

20-11-2001, 12:52

After all those discussions, are the VCDs any good and where can I buy them? Thanks.

DeadKenny

20-11-2001, 12:56

Originally posted by jamesking420

there are also some fairly minor improvements made to the film, like Jabba is now an Alien (big fat thing) and in the story, Greedo shoots at Hans before Hans shoots him.

Minor? Have a look at this site (http://www.jax-inter.net/users/datalore/starwars/sepage.htm) for a list of all the changes.

P.S. to someone above who said there wasn't any CGI, there's loads. CGI creatures, Jaba, flying droid things and a really utterly sh@te CGI speeder in the first film with a pathetic looking C3PO on the back.

As I said before, the best versions are the pre-SE remasters (which the SEs are based on), but I sold them for some stupid reason :(. And no, we don't have the choice of watching the originals if we want to because they're not available, and even if you have got the old VHS versions... it's VHS, not DVD!

However, there are a couple of things in the SEs that are okay (the CGI sandcrawler and the Falcon taking off, for example). Best of all the SEs is Jedi because it's got the least tampering, but it still has the comic-like CGI singer at the begining which is awful, and the silly 'teaser' ending which serves no purpose other than an advert for EP1 and just doesn't fit in at all, plus ditched two original songs.

Mr Flibble

20-11-2001, 13:38

Looks like I'll be holding onto my original VHS releases a bit longer then :)

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 15:16

Originally posted by Roberto
:D

Originally posted by nick69
Ooooh handbags!! :Dyou two are are a disgrace. your blatant padding is shameless and to the detriment of the proper (serious and otherwise) discussion on this thread. :(

still, at least Roberto also posts sentences and paragraphs, as opposed to nick69 who might as well be a lurker with his 2-4 word post limit and "hilarious" and relentless poke-fun-at-you-for-being-irritated by-him style, which has recently featured such deeply thought-out highlights as: "Grip... get one!!", "Oh dear... sshhhh now", "Ssshhhhhhhhhhhh....", and the padder's simple favourite " :D ".

not to mention the fact that these brief comments are usually preceded by an enormous quote section despite the fact that they directly follow the quoted post. i wonder why you bother mate? (apart from trying to inflate your post count, which no-one round here worth their salt cares about anyway).

nick69

20-11-2001, 15:34

Originally posted by Ben Martin
you two are are a disgrace. your blatant padding is shameless and to the detriment of the proper (serious and otherwise) discussion on this thread. :(

still, at least Roberto also posts sentences and paragraphs, as opposed to nick69 who might as well be a lurker with his 2-4 word post limit and "hilarious" and relentless poke-fun-at-you-for-being-irritated by-him style, which has recently featured such deeply thought-out highlights as: "Grip... get one!!", "Oh dear... sshhhh now", "Ssshhhhhhhhhhhh....", and the padder's simple favourite " :D ".

not to mention the fact that these brief comments are usually preceded by an enormous quote section despite the fact that they directly follow the quoted post. i wonder why you bother mate? (apart from trying to inflate your post count, which no-one round here worth their salt cares about anyway).

Bit uncalled for methinks:mad:

Anyway shhhhhhhhhhhhhh :D

Coolhand

20-11-2001, 15:51

At the risk of getting back on topic :D

It seems to me there is a little problem here.

1) Everyone raves about how good the originals are.

2)Ask George Lucas and he'll say they weren't entirely how he wanted them but he was limited by time/budget/special effects limitations etc. Hence the SEs. Where he added the extras to bring it closer to his original vision.

3)People don't like these added bits.

4) George then made EP1, which due to almost unlimited budget etc, could be made as close to his vision as possible.

5) People aren't too keen on EP1 either.

From these data we can conclude one thing. George Lucas' vision is a bit flawed. People don't like the films he would have liked to have made; they like the films he compromised on.

Go figure.

The main problem seems to be over-reliance on CGI.
My brain is just to good at realising the CGI is false, where it could almost believe the models were real.
I don't hold out a lot of hope for EPII and III. In fact, I think the whole prequel idea should have never got off the ground. He should have left the original trilogy as it was and tried making movies of a different genre.

Just my opinion.

gZa

20-11-2001, 16:03

Originally posted by Coolhand
In fact, I think the whole prequel idea should have never got off the ground. He should have left the original trilogy as it was and tried making movies of a different genre.Ermm...he did/tried. Adventure (http://uk.imdb.com/Title?0082971), Fantasy (http://uk.imdb.com/Title?0096446)

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 16:27

Originally posted by nick69
Bit uncalled for methinks :mad:

Anyway shhhhhhhhhhhhhh :Di rest my case.

anyway, back on topic .... what is disappointing me most about this thread is the fact that both factions seem insistent on throwing the baby out with the bath water. either the special editions are the best thing since sliced-bread or else they're an insult to humanity without any redeeming features whatsoever. and neither position seems accurate by anyone's definition - "true fan" or "new fan". where's the middle-ground gone guys?

i was, and still am, deeply disturbed by many of the changes in the special editions and they are the same changes that other people have voiced their concern/outrage about. however, in doing so many of the beneficial changes are being either ignored or undervalued, many or most of which i wouldn't call changes at all but rather repairs or completions. for example, looking through that excellent site that DeadKenny posted the link to (thanks for that, i hadn't seen it before) there are many examples of original optical elements being cleaned up and correctly composited at last. the end result of this being that they look "the way you remember them" rather than the way they actually were, and they are true to the original composites. looking at them in isolation - who would want to lose those now?

furthermore, there are some CGI scenes and elements that haven't been mentioned once, even in the most vociferous posts, and you can't help but wonder why. is it because these were both appropriate and well-done and thus either haven't been noticed or have been avoided out of convenience? i don't know. maybe. or maybe just a coincidence.

i think the overriding problem here is that all the work done for the special editions is being regarded as a "change" and that is a gross generalisation. imho, the various aims of the overall project ought to be considered and discussed here separately:
the rescue, cleaning and restoration of the original prints
re-compositing of original optical elements
CGI 'additions' to scenes
totally-CGI replacement scenes
new scenes, CGI or otherwisethe first two we can surely all agree on unreservedly as being a good thing, it's the final three areas that cause the controversy. but in each area there are surely both 'good' and 'bad' examples? greedo's CGI arm, first shot and miss (at point-blank range!) are a travesty of the highest order - both visually and from a story/character point of view; but that CGI falcon docked in the death star added to re-composited original elements looks so good that many people didn't notice on their first viewing. jabba looked very dodgy (they started working on that CGI model in 1993!) but the shots of the sandcrawler with new skies (time of day corrected) looked excellent. the 'jedi rocks' dance number in return of the jedi is wholly inappropriate, as well as poor entertainment, and for me renders the whole SE of that movie unwatchable as a result; yet the new CGI scenes of slave 1 following the falcon through the junk in empire,the falcon pulling away from the death star and taking off from mos eisley in star wars look superb, as good as the original models, and have a more fluid movement and make for a more interesting shot.

so it's swings and roundabouts and therein lies the main problem with the special editions - their total lack of consistency. they fixed some things and that was good, they changed/added the odd thing that was also good ... but then they also changed some fundamental things for the worse. this tampering with certain core elements hurt those people who have been fans since the beginning. a lot. while i think these people (myself included) then go too far in their criticism of the special editions, i do think the "new fans" aren't qualified to talk as pointedly as they have been doing about an area they have no experience of. so if everyone just gives a little ground maybe we could actually have a less charged, more productive discussion. who knows - we'd probably end up realising we agree on 80% plus of it all! :)

N.B. however, to those saying that "the original effects were cr*p" - there is no argument here, you are wrong. the only fair way to consider the quality of special effects is in the context of the time at which the movie was made. doing so reveals that they were in fact even better than the effects seen in episode I due to their groundbreaking nature which caused a paradigm-shift in both the effects industry and cinema in general. something that, for all its fabulous technology and often fantastic effects, cannot be said of episode I.

RoboCop4

20-11-2001, 16:43

Originally posted by Ben Martin
.... what is disappointing me most about this thread is the fact that both factions seem insistent on throwing the baby out with the bath water. either the special editions are the best thing since sliced-bread or else they're an insult to humanity without any redeeming features whatsoever. and neither position seems accurate by anyone's definition - "true fan" or "new fan". where's the middle-ground gone guys?

I think that's a bit unfair. Many/most of us have lauded some of the changes, whilst lamenting others. To quote from my own post:

Originally posted by RoboCop4
I'm not wholly against the 1997 SEs. IMHO the 'cleaned up' effects (e.g. the Death Star battle in ANH, Cloud City in ESB, the revised ROTJ ending, even the Mos Eisley stuff in ANH - apart from the animal thingy walking in front of the camera as Luke and Ben are talking to the stormtroopers) are a vast improvement over the originals.

What did annoy me were the superfluous plot and character alterations (such as the oft mentioned reworked Greedo and Jabba sequences in ANH, and Luke's scream as he falls down the shaft in ESB). None of these were necessary, and none were done to tie the films in with the yet-unmade prequels. It seems to be an example of George's self-indulgence ("they're my films; I can do what the ****** I like with them!").

cervaro

20-11-2001, 16:44

I guess the SE's and all their changes are a price worth paying to preserve Star Wars for future generations. We've always got the original VHS tapes and for some, Laserdiscs of the pre-1997 cuts.

I do agree the Greedo scene and dance number in ROTJ were poorly done and not in need of change. Must say I hadn't realised some of the subtler CGI changes with the Millenium Falcon and Slave 1 were even there. Must watch closer next viewing.

No doubt an even more heated argument will surface when Lucas reveals the 'archive' editions in a few years time.

gZa

20-11-2001, 16:47

It's not only swings and roundabouts but a huge case off ignorance is bliss.

Frankly sometimes I wish I wasn't so familiar with the films to notice the tampering. It took me a second viewing of American Graffiti before I noticed Lucas had digitally doctored the opening skyline (for the better I might add) but there was NO mention of this 'update' on the otherwise very indepth 75min documentery included on the DVD.

The one thought I cling to tho' - is that DVDs are so much more capable of presenting movies in various versions - I really do hope that we get an option to select THX pre-SE Trilogy OR SE Trilogy on the discs!

Oh and I'll eat my hat if Lucas doesn't redo the Jabba scene in Episode IV - it now dates the movie more than the casts haircuts!

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 16:47

Originally posted by RoboCop4
I think that's a bit unfair. Many/most of us have lauded some of the changes, whilst lamenting others.

very true, some of you had already done so, and thus were misrepresented by my post. sorry about that.

after the random interlude for smilies, padding and general irrelevant nonsense i was simply seeking to re-focus the thread on the pros and cons part of what had gone before and expand upon it, rather than go back to the black or white approach.

nick69

20-11-2001, 16:56

Originally posted by Ben Martin
i rest my case.

As mentioned previously you Star Wars fan boys should get a grip and not take out your frustrations re. the lack of Star Wars DVD's on others as you seem to be doing with me. At the end of the day whether you like it or not they are kids films not cinematic master pieces.

Slightly OT - having only recently started visiting this site I cant help but notice some of you have a very elitist and pompous (perhaps even facist) attitude with regarding to posting on these forums. Who are you to make value judgements? No doubt you and some of your cronies will try to get me banned blah blah blah:mad:

nick69

20-11-2001, 16:58

after the random interlude for smilies, padding and general irrelevant nonsense i was simply seeking to re-focus the thread

I rest my case :mad:

Roberto

20-11-2001, 17:00

Originally posted by Ben Martin
you two are are a disgrace. your blatant padding is shameless and to the detriment of the proper (serious and otherwise) discussion on this thread. :(

still, at least Roberto also posts sentences and paragraphs, as opposed to nick69 who might as well be a lurker with his 2-4 word post limit and "hilarious" and relentless poke-fun-at-you-for-being-irritated by-him style, which has recently featured such deeply thought-out highlights as: "Grip... get one!!", "Oh dear... sshhhh now", "Ssshhhhhhhhhhhh....", and the padder's simple favourite " :D ".

not to mention the fact that these brief comments are usually preceded by an enormous quote section despite the fact that they directly follow the quoted post. i wonder why you bother mate? (apart from trying to inflate your post count, which no-one round here worth their salt cares about anyway). I'm sorry but that attack was totally uncalled for! Are you a Mod? Then don't tell me what to say and when to say it! I say something when i feel like it and it adds to the thread, the :D indicated that i found what nick69 amusing. You don't like it? then report me!

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 17:01

Originally posted by Garry Cowell
The one thought I cling to tho' - is that DVDs are so much more capable of presenting movies in various versions - I really do hope that we get an option to select THX pre-SE Trilogy OR SE Trilogy on the discs!

me too, and i think we are now more likely than ever to get them - due to reasons explained above, along with the fact that spielberg is releases both versions of E.T. on dvd (might give lucas pause for thought).

Oh and I'll eat my hat if Lucas doesn't redo the Jabba scene in Episode IV - it now dates the movie more than the casts haircuts!

i have to agree with you again. as well as the fact that the episode IV jabba model suffers from its technically-outdated appearance, the inclusion of jabba in episode I means that it is even more consistent. it will definitely be replaced (can't see lucas dropping the scene though, jabba in ep1 makes it even more likely to stay).

at the moment, i honestly think that as well as entirely new "saga edition" scenes, we will see lucas 'work on'/tamper with/finally complete and repair other scenes from the special editions. from finally colouring in the lightsabers in star wars through removing greedo shooting first (hey, i can hope!), to finally getting rid of every unsightly matte line (especially the rancor scene).

imho, the least-controversial, and surely most-justifiable, "saga edition" change will be re-filming Clive Revill's scene as the emperor. it was arguably worth doing for the special editions even if the prequels weren't being made, due to the size of ian mcdiarmid's role in jedi. but now that we have ian mcdiarmid playing the same role in episodes I,II,III and VI it is pointless to leave revill's performance in - that would be cutting off the die-hard's nose to spite it's face. the scene will likely be framed indentically with identical dialogue.

gavinhanly

20-11-2001, 17:10

I have to say - the Death Star Battle in ANH is a massive improvement over the original. If you watch the pre - special edition, it's painfully slow, so the changes to the effects and pacing work extremely well.

I just find it *extraordinarily* irritating that after all their tweaking, they didn't fix the bit where Obi Wan points his lightsabre at the screen, and you can see that it's just a reflectice pole. What posessed them to leave that terrible mistake in??

I was also distressed to have one of my favourite lines removed from empire. Vader sounded extremely ****** off when he said "Bring me my shuttle", whereas "Tell my Star Destroyer to wait for my arrival" was awkward and cumbersome (not to mention the unnecessary padding of the following shuttle scenes).

I think that I'd rather they go back and update the special editions with the very best effects & match them with the originals than leave the special editions as they are. It'll all be worth it for Ian McDiarmid in Empire too...

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 17:19

Originally posted by nick69
As mentioned previously you Star Wars fan boys should get a grip and not take out your frustrations re. the lack of Star Wars DVD's on others as you seem to be doing with me.

i don't really want to get into this, but at least you mention something relating to the thread this time (a first?) ...

FFS mate, what are you talking about?! "frustrations re: lack of star wars dvds ..." ??!! lol! :rolleyes: you know full well, and the eveidence is there for everyone else to see, that neither here nor on the other thread was that the issue. not even close. on the other thread the dvds weren't even under discussion. so i'd appreciate it (not "telling you what to do" you see) if you'd stop trying to tar us with a brush that doesn't exist.

having only recently started visiting this site I cant help but notice some of you have a very elitist and pompous (perhaps even facist) attitude with regarding to posting on these forums. Who are you to make value judgements?

firstly, they are opinions, not value judgements. secondly, only i have said anything so don't lay into anyone else here who is discussing the thread with me. maybe they feel the same, maybe they don't.

there are over 13,500 members on this board, more threads than the mods can keep up with and enough traffic and associated problems, to give paul (server guy) a permament headache. to top it off the 'search' function isn't working and there is a worse problem than usual with duplicate threads clogging up the forums. thus, some of those who actually bother to make a contribution to the discussion of a topic on a thread get a bit irritated when those threads are made harder to read by people posting pointless chaff and unnecessary quotes.

i'm not telling you not to do it, though i wish you wouldn't. i have no right to "tell" you not to do anything. i'm not a mod and never claimed to be. but i have every right to voice my opinions.

No doubt you and some of your cronies will try to get me banned blah blah blah:mad:

:D just listen to yourself. read my last comment above. cronies? FFS. what have you done to be banned??!! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Roberto
I'm sorry but that attack was totally uncalled for! Are you a Mod? Then don't tell me what to say and when to say it! I say something when i feel like it and it adds to the thread, the :D indicated that i found what nick69 amusing. You don't like it? then report me!

as i've already said to nick69 - i am not telling anyone what to do because (a) i'm not a mod, and (b) it's not my style to do so. however, i am stating my opinion and i am as entitled to do that as you are to post nothing put a pointless smiley as the sole contents of a post.

i know you found what nick said amusing. that was obvious. i just felt it was as pointless as his post, unnecessary, the continuation of a very bad habit and to the detriment of the discussion on the topic of the thread that others were trying to have. why can't you confine that sort of thing to the general forum? again, just my view - don't have an aneurism.

Originally posted by nick69
I rest my case :mad:

:confused: what case, FFS??!!

gZa

20-11-2001, 17:31

Originally posted by Ben Martin
imho, the least-controversial, and surely most-justifiable, "saga edition" change will be re-filming Clive Revill's scene as the emperor. it was arguably worth doing for the special editions even if the prequels weren't being made, due to the size of ian mcdiarmid's role in jedi.Nice - I hadn't though of that! Only person it'll upset will be poor Clive Revill :(
Also didn't Lucas originally cast an actor to play Bail Organa in The Phantom Menace only for him to cut his scenes. Thankfully - as he then decided to recast the part for Attack of the Clones.

Roberto

20-11-2001, 17:34

there are over 13,500 members on this board, more threads than the mods can keep up with and enough traffic and associated problems, to give paul (server guy) a permament headache. to top it off the 'search' function isn't working and there is a worse problem than usual with duplicate threads clogging up the forums. thus, some of those who actually bother to make a contribution to the discussion of a topic on a thread get a bit irritated when those threads are made harder to read by people posting pointless chaff and unnecessary quotes. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/hitler.gif

Roberto

20-11-2001, 17:36

Originally posted by Garry Cowell
Nice - I hadn't though of that! Only person it'll upset will be poor Clive Revill :(
Also didn't Lucas originally cast an actor to play Bail Organa in The Phantom Menace only for him to cut his scenes. Thankfully - as he then decided to recast the part for Attack of the Clones. You know i never realised it wasn't the same actor, there was something different but i never quite could put my finger on it

Uncle Spanky

20-11-2001, 17:36

Having got all 3 versions of the widescreen films on VHS, I agree with most of you. TESB is not ruined in any way by the additional scenes in my opinion, and I like the additional battle scenes and Falcon CGI in Star Wars, but as said elsewhere, the Greedo/Solo scene is ruined by making Solo's shot a retaliation rather than cold-blooded murder.

The Jabba scene is also poor, especially the stepping on the tail bit.

As for the song and dance routine in ROTJ, I always hated both, because the music is sooooo crap it's unbelievable.

Hopefully on the DVDs Lucas will give us a branching version of the original movie, with a menu where we can select exactly which of the SE scenes we want to add, so we can mix and match to our hearts content.

As for Lucas' re-doctoring of the SEs, perhaps he is re-addressing some of the criticisms, like the Greedo scene, as well as adding Episode 1-3 tie-ins.

For what it's worth, a friend of mine who worked on Episode 1 & 2 assures me that Episode 2 is a big big improvement. Let's hope he's right.

nick69

20-11-2001, 17:40

i don't really want to get into this, but at least you mention something relating to the thread this time (a first?) ...

Cant help yourself can ya?!

Maybe you should stop posting this rubbish and get back to doing your homework.

:mad:

nick69

20-11-2001, 17:43

Originally posted by Roberto
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/hitler.gif

:D :D :D :D :D :D

N.B. this post was to express my amusement at the above post - no other reason for its appearance should be inferred or implied nor otherwise be interpreted contrary the regulations stipulated by a certain forum member:nuts:

Davester

20-11-2001, 17:44

At the end of the day whether you like it or not they are kids films not cinematic master pieces.

Disagree there. They are fantastic films and are master pieces. Their sucess speaks for itself.

Slightly OT - having only recently started visiting this site I cant help but notice some of you have a very elitist and pompous (perhaps even facist) attitude with regarding to posting on these forums.

Give me your lunch money!

No doubt you and some of your cronies will try to get me banned blah blah blah:mad:

Bit OTT. I don't think anyone will try to get you banned if you are keeping arguements civilised etc. Trouble only occurs when people start getting personal and trolling etc. I have read bits of this thread and can't see any reason for you getting banned.:)

Gozer

20-11-2001, 17:52

Originally posted by Uncle Spanky
The Jabba scene is also poor, especially the stepping on the tail bit.

They could have left Han to just walk around Jabba. He didn't have to step on his tail just step over it.

nick69

20-11-2001, 18:04

Originally posted by Davester
At the end of the day whether you like it or not they are kids films not cinematic master pieces.

Disagree there. They are fantastic films and are master pieces. Their sucess speaks for itself.

Slightly OT - having only recently started visiting this site I cant help but notice some of you have a very elitist and pompous (perhaps even facist) attitude with regarding to posting on these forums.

Give me your lunch money!

No doubt you and some of your cronies will try to get me banned blah blah blah:mad:

Bit OTT. I don't think anyone will try to get you banned if you are keeping arguements civilised etc. Trouble only occurs when people start getting personal and trolling etc. I have read bits of this thread and can't see any reason for you getting banned.:)

Ever heard of sarcasm?? :D

Spooksta

20-11-2001, 18:04

Im no great fan of EP1,mainly due to the CGI but you must admit the 1 stand out thing from EP1 is the light sabre fighting.Darth Maul was a great Bad guy greatly underused and the fighting between him and the Jedi was great (even if getting chopped in half was a bit OTT and a tad easy for Obi).
So with that inmind EP4 fighting looks wierd.
NO WAY would i want Lucas to change anymore to EP4 i was just trying to point out the problems doing a prequel to a clasic film can cause.I would rather have seen EP 7 8 & 9.....
So far looking at EP2 trailers its going to be darker than EP1.I live in hope that it will match my "great expectations".....

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 18:38

Originally posted by nick69
Cant help yourself can ya?!

it's nothing to do with not being able to help myself. there was no decision to make. you were posting blatant untruths and i was pointing out that you were doing so. this is all of your own making.

Maybe you should stop posting this rubbish and get back to doing your homework.

:D hardly mate! i'm 26 ... schooldays long behind me. if anything, we have a situation of the pot calling the kettle black as you're the one behaving like a kid, and reluctant to string more than a handful of words together.

as i said before, for all his padding at least roberto does make posts that follow and contribute to the thread and are worth reading. i have yet to see anything that even vaguely meets this description from you.

and why the purile insistence on then "living up" something you gain no benefit from and know others find irritating?? - i.e. unnecessarily posting an entire thread as a quote immediately after the original post, as you have just done to Davester's post. grow up, for god's sake.

Roberto - i know you're ******* off, though you needn't be, so from that position i can see why you might post as you did above. but seeing as you bothered to quote a whole section (and thanks for not quoting the whole thing) i assume you're making a point there? so let me try to explain again....

i'm not trying to say what you can and can't do and even if i were, i have no say in the matter. i'm not against anyone having a laugh, but specifically adding huge, unnecessary quotes to miniscule posts that ignore the topic and destroy the readability of the thread while not even joining in the discussion, i find it to be highly disrespectful of other forums members who may be trying to read the thread and contribute. this applies far more to nick69 than yourself anyway.

okay, ---- that for a game of soldiers. there's no point saying anything else off-topic. you both know how i feel and why, and i see your points even though i don't agree with them. so why don't we leave it at that?

Roberto

20-11-2001, 19:10

Truce called by Ben, truce accepted by Roberto.

At the very least you argued your case eloquently http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/teach.gif

nick69

20-11-2001, 19:20

Originally posted by Ben Martin
:D hardly mate! i'm 26 ... schooldays long behind me. if anything, we have a situation of the pot calling the kettle black as you're the one behaving like a kid, and reluctant to string more than a handful of words together.
[/B]

You cant help yourself - you rely far to heavily on petty insults. The reason for my brief (yet highly amusing posts! :D ) is that I am at work and dont have time to write boring essays about kids films. As for you being 26 you sound more like a 56 year old history teacher - like I said run along and get on with your homework :D

Also I'm sure everybody else would appreciate it if you stopped forcing your views on how to structure a post down everyones throat :brickwall

nick69

20-11-2001, 19:23

Originally posted by Roberto
Truce called by Ben, truce accepted by Roberto.

At the very least you argued your case eloquently http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/teach.gif

Lets see him prove that hes not a child by apologising first :rolleyes:

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 19:50

i know i said i wouldn't post anything else, but seeing as this is starting to be resolved amicably i thought one more might be a good idea.

roberto - i don't mean this to sound patronising but nice to see that i was right about you, and cheers for taking my last post the right way. i have no personal beef with either of you (i don't know you guys!) but i am slightly irritated by that one little thing you occasionally do. good to sort it all out.

nick - i want to settle this amicably with you for all sorts of reasons, not least so everyone else doesn't have to read all this, but you're making it very difficult.

Originally posted by nick69
you rely far to heavily on petty insults.

this coming from the man who told me to "get back to doing [my] homework", and who has so far branded me a star wars "fanboy", a facist and a history teacher! my words that you criticised so heavily were just a retort to this. if you go back through all my posts on this issue you'll see that i explain what it is that i have a problem with and then carefully explain why i feel this is inappropriate. i never posted a single :mad: because i wasn't - just a bit exasperated. if you disagreed you could have explained why you thought i am wrong to think the way i do and tried to point a few things out that maybe i wasn't aware of and who knows, maybe i'd have agreed with you? or at least partially? but no, you have to persist with it and then start slating me, and then slating me again for defending myself. what am i supposed to do?

The reason for my brief (yet highly amusing posts!)...

yeah ... "hilarious"! :rolleyes:

... is that I am at work and dont have time to write boring essays about kids films.

so you're saying you don't care about this thread? that it's discussing a "kid's film" (a term you use in a derogatory fashion) and worst of all, that those of us making longer posts are writing "boring essays" which you clearly have no interest in? so why post here at all? why not just ignore it? i don't follow your logic. :confused:

Also I'm sure everybody else would appreciate it if you stopped forcing your views on how to structure a post down everyones throat.

i don't hear anyone else saying this - perhaps because they realise that i'm not trying to force any views on anyone? and after all i have previously explained that this is not the case, pointed out no authority etc. but i know many members who would appreciate your making more substantial posts. not least because i'm sure you have loads of interesting things to say - you must do as you're clearly as argumentative as me! :) [just incase, i'll point out that's a bone i'm throwing you there! ;)]

and as for your last post, you think i'm patronising??!! :eek: i find your comments just above patronising in the extreme! not to mention offensive and unbelieveably inflammatory - particularly given my previous post that clearly aimed (as roberto thankfully realised) at calming and sorting out the issue.

look ... i don't think any of us have anything to apologise for (and if i did, then i would - check out my apology to RoboCop4 above for proof). we just need to agree to disagree, let bygones be bygones and get on with being useful members of this forum. so no apologies but why don't you join me and roberto in putting it all aside and trying to get on?? sound like a plan? i hope so. :)

N.B. guys - if any more needs to be said what do you say to us doing it on e-mail and leaving this thread for the discussion of the thread's topic? i'm prepared to do that if you are.

EDIT - having checked back through this thread for items to pick up on for discussion and having read through all of Roberto's posts i now feel that i clearly misrepresented him, as he does indeed contribute to this thread several times. .... you're still a padder though mate! ;) :D

Paul Bennison

20-11-2001, 21:01

Originally posted by vila
the other thing they're doing for the extra footage is re shooting the emporers scene in ESB with the actor in ROTJ/Trilogy1.

I saw that coming. If you look at the poster/video cover here (http://us.imdb.com/ImageView?u=http%3A//images.amazon.com/images/P/6304539266.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) for the special editions of ESB (if you really don't have one at home). Surely this is must be the only example of an actor appearing on the poster who wasn't in the film. (Ironic when you think of the original problems they had with Billy Dee Williams and the original poster!!!!

RES999

20-11-2001, 21:57

I can't believe nearly a page of this thread was about Nick, Ben and Roberto bickering. :rolleyes:

anyway, what is wrong with han solo shooting second. Surely it is better making "Solo's shot a retaliation rather than cold-blooded murder. "

also why do people say that lucas can't write and direct when so many people say that star wars is a masterpiece?

i do think the "new fans" aren't qualified to talk as pointedly as they have been doing about an area they have no experience of.

i don't agree with this at all. i believe that us new fans are more qualified because we are not biased towards the original.

Paul Bennison

20-11-2001, 22:40

Originally posted by RES999
also why do people say that lucas can't write and direct when so many people say that star wars is a masterpiece?

I love Star Wars. But I can accept that it is flawed. Lucas in my opinion is a great storyteller. He's managed to tap into something that everyone can relate to on some level. When actually analysing the direction of Star Wars - even the actors involved have claimed that there was little or no real direction from Lucas. On TESB and ROTJ, Lucas only penned the stories - not the script nor did he direct - hense why TESB is leaps and bounds ahead in terms of character interaction and even the performances are stronger.

I-BERT

20-11-2001, 22:43

Although someone mentioned it on another LUCAS thread,He has destroyed one of my favourite scenes from ANH.
Obi wan says"Mos Eisley space port,you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy"
Yet in the next scene,shows some robots acting like the Three stooges.
Totaly destroyed the mood.
RES999-Solo is supposed to be a criminal,smuggler,whatever.
We were meant to think he is not a very nice person,so when he saves Luke in the Death Star scene,it is more of a supprise.
Lucas has gone PC in his old age.

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 22:52

Originally posted by RES999
i don't agree with this at all. i believe that us new fans are more qualified because we are not biased towards the original.

i think you've misunderstood what i was saying, although i'll admit it was certainly open to misinterpretation. i knew i was on thin ice referring to new fans but i only meant it as a convenient device to analyse why maybe some people feel the way they do. at the end of the day if you love star wars, you love star wars - that's fine in my book, i don't care when you got into it. however, the differences between certain (albeit very general) age groups can sometimes help explain certain points of view. ["you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." :) - a particularly topical line as i have a feeling it might have been left out of the special edition.]

Ben Martin

20-11-2001, 22:59

Originally posted by Paul Bennison
On TESB and ROTJ, Lucas only penned the stories - not the script nor did he direct - hense why TESB is leaps and bounds ahead in terms of character interaction and even the performances are stronger.

i agree entirely. surely it is no coincidence that the movie lucas had least to do with (to the extent that he said his director, producer and editor: "you're ruining my movie!") is the one held in the highest regard by critics and fans alike? makes me wonder too - is jedi really 'wooden'? or does it just feel like that after empire?

hmm, not quite 'off-topic' but i've just had a thought that's never occured to me before (but i'm sure has to everyone else!): that vader isn't the bad guy for the first half of jedi (obviously jabba is) and he only really comes into play in the second half. i know that's obvious and i have always known that but not really thought about it as such. definitely another reason why jedi is the weakest of the three 'classic' movies.

Davester

20-11-2001, 23:59

Originally posted by nick69

Ever heard of sarcasm?? :D

I was just being noce, but hey, you want a fight. YOU AND ME OUTSIDE NOW!111111111111 :argue: :nuts:

Spooky_uk

21-11-2001, 00:13

:D

I AM NOT GOING TO NAME NAMES, BUT ANYONE READING THIS THREAD WILL REALISE THAT "THERE BE FANBOYS IN HERE" :D

Whether they admit or not ;)

Just read the whole thread from the beginning...

DeadKenny

21-11-2001, 01:36

Originally posted by Ben Martin
i was, and still am, deeply disturbed by many of the changes in the special editions and they are the same changes that other people have voiced their concern/outrage about. however, in doing so many of the beneficial changes are being either ignored or undervalued, many or most of which i wouldn't call changes at all but rather repairs or completions. for example, looking through that excellent site that DeadKenny posted the link to (thanks for that, i hadn't seen it before) there are many examples of original optical elements being cleaned up and correctly composited at last. the end result of this being that they look "the way you remember them" rather than the way they actually were, and they are true to the original composites. looking at them in isolation - who would want to lose those now?

This thread is hurting my head :nuts:

Anyway, good point on the improvements that were for restorative purposes and even subtle changes to complete or make an effect, well, less "naff" are fine, but unfortunately all 3 SEs have some very obvious "oh, this bit's CGI", which is exactly what Lucas said he was trying to avoid! (I recall an interview with him saying something to that effect) :confused:.

However, a lot of the restoration work can be seen in the pre-SE remasters. All the stuff you see in the documentary about chemically cleaning the prints, sorting out the matt lines and stuff were done during those remasters (I remember reading stuff about it at the time, well before the SEs). There are two remastered videos as I recall. I think they're both the same except the second set is THX approved (no change to the content). The SEs then took these new prints and started messing around digitally, but even then there are some improvements which work, but too many that don't.

P.S. as for Greedo... Han blowing him away in cold-blooded murder style is just so cool... "yeah, I bet you have"... blam! but I guess Lucas is a wimp like his mate Steve who wants to remove guns from E.T. :rolleyes:

CountSatyr

21-11-2001, 12:22

When I first watched the SE versions I took them to be a type of Extra Feature not a definitive version of the movie. It became a game of spot the differences. That said I appreciate the general premise that Lucas had of reworking the original series. However I do not think he went far enough. Now before I get mauled let me explain.

The key purpose should be to make the transition from the new trilogy to the old as seamless as possible. So it feels believably connected. With the SE attempt it just was not enough. There are plenty of details that could have been sorted out. For example the briefing 3D maps which remained as monochrome images, the X-Wing cockpit display, the inquisition bot that still looked like a black basket ball on a stick, or even the use of stop motion. To me this spoils the movie especially for the “new generation” of viewers who are quickly reminded how it is.

What bugs me is that they spent time and money inserting additional footage instead of trying to make the movies more timeless. This was done purely for a marketing reason to get people into the cinema.

One last point is that I hope Lucas tries to dumb down the effects of TAOTC. By making the Naboo fighters so sleek he makes all other fighters in the original trilogy look downright blocky. There needs to be a proper transition in the series and I have not seen it yet.

We can only hope that if there is an Archive edition coming out Lucas will get it right.

robbiejm

21-11-2001, 12:49

Originally posted by CountSatyr
The key purpose should be to make the transition from the new trilogy to the old as seamless as possible.

Exactly, so he should have made the new episodes look like the older trilogy. Rather than messing about with the originals and trying to bring the 'up to date'. It's like adding bits to Spartacus to make it look like Gladiator. :rolleyes:

...........There needs to be a proper transition in the series and I have not seen it yet.

There's virtually no effective transition at the moment, Episode 1 looks like a computer game trailer and just doesn't seem like it's anything to do with Episodes 4,5 and 6. The only reminders being the older characters (R2-D2, C3-PO etc.), the light saber fight and some of the Tatooine stuff.

FaustBos

21-11-2001, 13:06

Originally posted by robbiejm

The key purpose should be to make the transition from the new trilogy to the old as seamless as possible.

Exactly, so he should have made the new episodes look like the older trilogy. Rather than messing about with the originals and trying to bring the 'up to date'. It's like adding bits to Spartacus to make it look like Gladiator. :rolleyes:

Exactly exactly. It's high time everyone just come to terms with that fact that lucas is not making better film, he's just playing with technology, and its a pretty unimpressive result if you ask me. I recently posted on another board and asked if lucas has story board to back up his miriad claims of "now i can do it the way i always wanted to". If you check the extras on the recent Star Trek TMP disc (not sure if this is out in UK yet), this is exactly what the restoration team did with TMP. They completed a movie that was hastily released to meet an opening day deadline. There are details into what changes and additions have been made, and they look...... here is the very important part..... seemless. They stated their goals, held to their goals and executed them beautifully, right down to the film spots on the new editions to make it look a bit older.

We can debate what lucas does until the end of time, but If use his own words as a starting point, I have to conclude that at best, his restoration team has done a **** poor job.

The direction of the francise is another story altogether. I just can't understand how anyone can claim that Lucas is a master storyteller. he's been credited (by himself mostly) with putting something in his films for everyone. Lets see, Some droids for the kiddies, some love interest for older kiddies (and adults who well, nevermind), mystics for the religious, hum, a real old irish sounding grand ma for the real old irish etc etc etc. This doesn't automattically make the movie work for people of all ages. Thats just a load of crap. A film that works for people on all levels is one that can be watched in its entirety ON that level. Take for example, Chicken Run, or Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory. Adults and kids can sit side by side and enjoy the whole film on 2 totally different levels. THAT is good story telling, and fine execution. PM is primarily geared towards kids. Thats fine. Lets call it what it is. A kids movie.

Letsgetdigital

21-11-2001, 13:33

Just a few ideas after reading this thread but:

Adding scenes to the existing films to create a coherent 6 part saga appeals to as many fans as it repels, but for those of us (including me) who take a day off sick on release of the final DVD to be issued, and watches, with several cans of red bull, the entire story for start to finish, this will be quite a moment.

but...

There is a fair number of older fans of Star Wars who want to watch the films the way they appeared at the cinema. And why not? The Star Wars was edge of the seat film-making with no plans (from the studio) to make another. Consequently it stands up as a classic in its own right and allows us to re-experience the awe of watching Star Wars for the first time, remembering how cool Han was for viciously icing Greedo, etc. etc. Many argue that ESB was the best, but don't bother arguing with me, cos I don't care. I guess at the minute that this group is made up of 30/40 somethings who watched the original trilogy at the pictures. Obviously as this demographic procreates and encourages their offspring to watch the "proper versions" of movies, there will be an underground cult formed, and possibly a new religion.

So here it is. George's 6 part integrated saga will one day appear on the shelves. So in five years time group "A" if you like will be happy as pigs in poo. By this time, the bootleggers will have cottoned on to the underground oldist Group "B" SW cult movement, and will have produced THX quality bootlegs of the original (unmessed-with) films.

So my prediction is that everyone will one day be happy with the Star Wars DVDs on their shelves.

:D :clap: :D

The End.

FaustBos

21-11-2001, 13:50

In reference to the above post (very nice by the way), im in the 30 something catagory. I didnt see Star wars when it first came out. My mom wouldn't let me :-) But I did eventually see it some years later, and the next 2 as well.

For me the issue is not really one of just the additions. Its the quality of the aditions and whether it makes for a better movie. In lucas' case, I feel it doesn't. ... Far far away ... from it.

Personally, i'll be content with a nice bootlegged version of ep 4 and 5. Widescreen, and unenhanced.

I'd gladly purchase these legit of course, but I dont think they will ever be released. So, also thank lucas for furthering the cause of the bootleggers.

I have no interest (except to make fun of) in the new franchise.

FaustBos

21-11-2001, 13:52

Oh Letsgetdigital, i meant to ask you. When you do get the chance to watch all the films together, just curious, (and this is a serious question), which order will you watch them in?

4,5,6,1,2,3, or 1,2,3,4,5,6

Or in the order of enhancement ... hehehe, ok that part wasn't serious.

I have see this discussion in other places, just wonder where you fall.

Jim

Letsgetdigital

21-11-2001, 14:18

Faustbos - agree with the quality of some of the additions, hopefully they will be revisited too... :)

As for my viewing preference, it will certainly be 1-6 the first time.

After that the bubble will have burst!

It would be nice to have the originals on a decent DVD too one day I guess...

But I won't cry if it doesn't happen that way ;)

Davester

21-11-2001, 14:43

Most interesting thread ever in the movie dis section. Maybe it should be moved to the general?:D

FaustBos

21-11-2001, 14:51

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
Faustbos - agree with the quality of some of the additions, hopefully they will be revisited too... :)

As for my viewing preference, it will certainly be 1-6 the first time.

After that the bubble will have burst!

It would be nice to have the originals on a decent DVD too one day I guess...

But I won't cry if it doesn't happen that way ;)
I wont cry either. It would be a waste of time. I hope you survive that bubble burst though. I have a feeling when you are finally able to see all 6 in a row, it will be an anticlimax.

And, hehe, yeah, im sure the revisits will get revisits will get revisits. Keep track of Star wars is going to be like keeping track of OS2 service packs

Letsgetdigital

21-11-2001, 15:08

Originally posted by FaustBos

I have a feeling when you are finally able to see all 6 in a row, it will be an anticlimax.

Me too :( Mind you Ep2 looks promising...

And, hehe, yeah, im sure the revisits will get revisits will get revisits. Keep track of Star wars is going to be like keeping track of OS2 service packs

Star Wars: Episode 2: Attack Of The Clones: Version 1.4.3.6.3E

:brickwall

Ben Martin

21-11-2001, 15:21

Originally posted by FaustBos
he's been credited (by himself mostly) with putting something in his films for everyone. Lets see, Some droids for the kiddies, some love interest for older kiddies (and adults who well, nevermind), mystics for the religious, hum, a real old irish sounding grand ma for the real old irish etc etc etc. This doesn't automattically make the movie work for people of all ages.

no, of course it doesn't, but i honestly don't think george lucas was trying to please everyone when he made episode I. i think he just made the film he wanted to make and to hell with anyone who didn't like it. unfortunately for us fans of the original trilogy his approach has changed and manifested some traits that we don't like.

I wont cry either. It would be a waste of time.

i disagree. and not just from a personal view of hoping to see the originals on dvd one day - there would be a huge market for any such releases. but that said, i don't think he'll release them separately, but rather as 'extras' on his blue-laser, definitive edtion in 2007 or whenever.

as for what order i'd watch them in, i am currently still in favour of watching them 4,5,6,1,2,3 - but then who can say what might happen in the next two movies that might make me change my mind? obviously i'm biased towards that order because of my own personal experience, but i still see the story as the originals with the new trilogy being a very welcome flashback.

and while i agree with the broad concepts of their being two factions of fans, i don't think it breaks down into a 30s/40s group and then everyone else. if forced i'd put myself into the 30/40s category but i'm 26 and missed the first movie at the cinema - empire was my first ever trip to the cinema. so i'd say the boundary, though still vague and ultimately unimportant, is defined more by whether you were a fan prior to the special edtions or not.

that said, don't anyone get me wrong - i don't think either faction, for want of a better term, are any more or less valid fans than the other.

Accident Man

21-11-2001, 16:34

Originally posted by RES999

What I can't understand, why is it so important if he changes the originals slightly?

Also which 'original' are you hoping to be on DVD? The version made in 1977 or the recent special edition?

I reckon they could put both on the Ultimate Edition - he got 3 versions of Terminator 2 on one DVD, can't see why we can't have all three versions of Star Wars on a disc as well. And that goes for Empire and Jedi too.

RoboCop4

21-11-2001, 16:52

Originally posted by Accident Man
I reckon they could put both on the Ultimate Edition - he got 3 versions of Terminator 2 on one DVD, can't see why we can't have all three versions of Star Wars on a disc as well. And that goes for Empire and Jedi too.

Might be more tricky to do this with the Star wars films. In T2 the branching simply had to choose to either play a scene or not, but for Star Wars the decision matrix would be much more complex... especially if a third version was available.

Disappearer

21-11-2001, 18:50

Here's a thought:

Greedo shoots Han Solo first, but Han doesn't even flinch, he doesn't care, he just returns fire and hits his target - he's Han solo, he's cool as **** and he knows it.

One of my friends always jokes that I defend whatever Lucas does, and she's probably right. Heck, I even think Jar Jar's great!!! :D

FaustBos

21-11-2001, 23:26

Originally posted by Ben Martin
i think he just made the film he wanted to make and to hell with anyone who didn't like it. unfortunately for us fans of the original trilogy his approach has changed and manifested some traits that we don't like.

This may be, but that doesn't gaurentee a good result. Phantom Menace doesn't hold up as a good movie experience, no matter who you disect it.

and while i agree with the broad concepts of their being two factions of fans, i don't think it breaks down into a 30s/40s group and then everyone else. if forced i'd put myself into the 30/40s category but i'm 26 and missed the first movie at the cinema - empire was my first ever trip to the cinema. so i'd say the boundary, though still vague and ultimately unimportant, is defined more by whether you were a fan prior to the special edtions or not.

I think I tend to agree with you here. I don't really like to be grouped with one of these factions. I'm not a star wars hater or lover. I really don't loose much sleep over the fact that there is about a 6 year wait to see Star Wars and Empire on DVD. There are too many good pieces of film out there to really care. All the power to the fans. I just don't see why he has to make you wait so long.

As for Episode 2, well, I haven't been impressed with the trailers. Remember I'm seeing this through the eyes of someone who does not believe in lucas' abilities. Yes I'm very critical of his work. I see more of the same from episode one in the trailer. I expect that the film will be non stop action, very little acting, stale lines and more controversy. I've wondered if the Yoda seens in the trailer are flashbacks to when Joda was younger, of he has started juicing or something. There is a nice piece of anticontinuity. Why does Yoda need to be animated? I guess because you CAN animate yoda. lucas doesn't even know when he has something right any longer.

One more thing about the new movies. My interest in PM is purely one of awe, in how you can get so many things wrong and still make millions. Does the world really need this series to come together so badly? I think there will be plenty of people who will be satisfied in 2007 to only get episodes 4 5 and 6, and totally disregard the prequels. Episode 2 and 3 aside, since they have not been released and its not fair to comment on them, but the original 3 movies don't really need the prequels to stand up as very good, exceptional, and fine entertainment.

Lastly (see, i've digitally enhanced my last paragraph), "Star Wars: Episode 2: Attack Of The Clones: Version 1.4.3.6.3E". Exactly. The "which version" do you have will probably keep the bootleggers going for centuries.

Jim

PS, did any notice the lack of clones in the last released trailer?

Ben Martin

21-11-2001, 23:42

Originally posted by FaustBos
did any notice the lack of clones in the last released trailer?

there were thousands of them!! albeit in only one shot! :D

it's only the teaser though, and when you take the two shorter teasers into account as well they really have shown us rather a lot this time. they have to hold something back.

that said, i think people will be surprised at what's in the full trailer in march, let alone the film itself. there are characters who haven't appeared at all yet (owen and beru for starters), other main characters who have either only been glimpsed or appeared in the corners of shots, and several 'combatants' who we havent seen fighting yet.

roll on march!

FaustBos

21-11-2001, 23:49

Oh maybe I just missed it. I was forced to watch the "lovey dovey" trailer and didnt remember clones. I saw the first teaser and just jaw dropped thinking "oh god not again". I haven't seen the 2nd teaser, no interest in it at all.

If I happen to see the big trailer, fine and dandy, but im not about to pay for a upgrade to my viewer to see it. I'll wait until I can borrow the DVD.

Ben Martin

22-11-2001, 09:23

Originally posted by FaustBos
I saw the first teaser and just jaw dropped thinking "oh god not again".

fair enough if you didn't like like it, but whether you thought it looked good or bad there is no way that anyone could have looked at the "Breathing" teaser and thought it looked like episode I - it was so dark and the cuts so quick. that said, more potential 'episode I like' elements have crept into the subsequent two trailers, i'll grant you that.

[just discovered your comments in that post above which i'd missed because of the way you have them inside the quote - worth editing]

I've wondered if the Yoda seens in the trailer are flashbacks to when Joda was younger, of he has started juicing or something. There is a nice piece of anticontinuity. Why does Yoda need to be animated? I guess because you CAN animate yoda.

i think the primary reason why yoda has been animated for episode II is because we finally get to see him fight in this movie! regardless of the reasons, i disagree that he looks younger. i think he looks older, much more like he does in the empire strikes back, though bit too 'slick' i grant you. that said, he looks a million times better already than he did in episode I where he looked far too much like a cheap puppet.

I haven't seen the 2nd teaser, no interest in it at all.

check your e-mail! ;)

Roberto

22-11-2001, 10:47

Originally posted by FaustBos
Oh maybe I just missed it. I was forced to watch the "lovey dovey" trailer and didnt remember clones. I saw the first teaser and just jaw dropped thinking "oh god not again". I haven't seen the 2nd teaser, no interest in it at all.
Let's be honest here, The emipre strikes back had a very heavy element of romance in that as well between Han and Leia, It's even in all the posters!! (Leia tipped back in Hans arms) and it turned out to be the best of the three oringal movies (IMHO). So please try to reserve jugment until you actually see the movie. You never know this time in 2005 you'll be thinking it the best movie of the new trilogy!

And yes it looks like it has elements of Episode I simply because of the syle of the SFX. Did you think that he was going to go back to models? (I wish he did through!)

FaustBos

22-11-2001, 11:30

Originally posted by Roberto

Let's be honest here, The emipre strikes back had a very heavy element of romance in that as well between Han and Leia, It's even in all the posters!! (Leia tipped back in Hans arms) and it turned out to be the best of the three oringal movies (IMHO). So please try to reserve jugment until you actually see the movie. You never know this time in 2005 you'll be thinking it the best movie of the new trilogy!

And yes it looks like it has elements of Episode I simply because of the syle of the SFX. Did you think that he was going to go back to models? (I wish he did through!)
True about the romance, my point is that the plot elements in episode 1 seem to be alot more infantile, so I expect that lucas will continue that trend and so will the romance element. My more focused point about lucas is that I feel he's out of touch and he's lost his gift, what I see in the trailers doesn't change that opinion.

Hehe, I doubt very much I'll think much of anything in the trilogy. There actually are movies with substance that deserve much more of my attention. To be fair again, of course I can't say one way or the other about 2 movies that have not been released. I'm merely predicting that lucas will fail to capture my interest.

Given that he did such a poor job with intergration of the 4th film (in order of release), I really don't even look at these as a 6 part series. I honestly look at it in 2 ways.

1) The original trilogy, and what ever he is doing now
2) CGI infested hacks and what he is doing now.

For number 1, I just considered the projects mutually exclusive
For number 2, they both fall into the catagory of unimpressive (granted, to me). Anyone who asks nothing more than a bunch of 2nd rate CGI affects, will completely enjoy all 6 films I'm sure. I look for something a bit more in a film, so there you have it.

Jim

FaustBos

22-11-2001, 11:31

Originally posted by Roberto

And yes it looks like it has elements of Episode I simply because of the syle of the SFX. Did you think that he was going to go back to models? (I wish he did through!)

I think going back to models would have been far more effective and demonstrated a bit more talent on his part. And, yes, I think it would have looked much better.

Ben Martin

22-11-2001, 11:35

Originally posted by FaustBos
Hehe, I doubt very much I'll think much of anything in the trilogy. There actually are movies with substance that deserve much more of my attention.
....
I look for something a bit more in a film, so there you have it.

hmm, okay ... but over 10% of your posts since joining these forums have been on this thread, talking about star wars!! :D

i think you like the movies a lot more than you're letting on mate, whether you're aware of it or not!

FaustBos

22-11-2001, 11:48

Originally posted by Ben Martin
Originally posted by FaustBos
Hehe, I doubt very much I'll think much of anything in the trilogy. There actually are movies with substance that deserve much more of my attention.
....
I look for something a bit more in a film, so there you have it.

hmm, okay ... but over 10% of your posts since joining these forums have been on this thread, talking about star wars!! :D

i think you like the movies a lot more than you're letting on mate, whether you're aware of it or not!

Naw, not really :-) I like the subject of Lucas though. I know I tend to trash him alot and I do think he deserves it. But I do feel that he has lost something over the years and because he is a big name, and his name commands alot of respect, I see this as a bad thing for the industry.

Our standards are dropping if we can look at the work he does now and say its anything but average. However, because lucas overuses the technology of CGI, I suspect other directors may follow in his step. I hope I'm wrong about that. So I do feel lucas as a subject is worth talking about.

I know i've stated this before but I'll do it again. I think Star Wars stand up on its own as a great movie, in its original form. I think Empire is one of the best sequels of all time. A squel in the true sense of the word.

I was not impressed with Jedi, and as for PM, well, I wasn't impressed by the CGI and the story was not given enough focus to hold the movie together, so i just see it as a mess.

The trailers for the new movie, look like the CGI is what they are selling, so unless they come through with a good story, i doubt it will hold my interest.

On a separate but related issue, does anyone have the number on what these films cost to make? Even the older films before the edits?. I'd also be interested to have a revised figure on the all the films after the reedits.

Jim