PC Upgrade advice - Doom III and HL 2 waiting!

[Ono]

With the imminent release of Doom III I have decided the time has come to upgrade my trusty old Athlon 900 to a middle spec'd system as below:

ATX MidiTower +360W PSU with tool free access
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
ASUS K8V Deluxe Athlon 64 Mainboard - 1600MHz SB, Dual LAN, IEEE 1394, SATA
AMD Athlon 64 3200+
1024Mb PC3200 DDR (400MHz)
1.44MB Floppy Drive
200GB Serial ATA (150Mb/s) Ultra Fast Hard Drive
128MB ATI Radeon 9800 Pro - TV Out + DVI
16x DVD-ROM
SONY DWU-18A - 8x DVD-RW Multi Burner Drive
Onboard Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound
Logitech Internet Keyboard & Optical Mouse (Black)
Cyberlink PowerCinema 3 + Remote Control
3 Port Firewire Card (2x External + 1x Internal Header)
Memory Card Reader:Integral 8-in-1 Card Reader (USB2)
3 Years - Parts & Labour - Back-to-Base Warranty

Questions

How does it look? Any changes you'd recommend?

How good are onboard sound cards - should I pay the extra £40 for an Audigy?

Is 1 Gig of RAM enough? (I will be doing DV editing to)

As much as I would love the Radeon XT800 card - I can't justify the preium over the 9800 Pro - even for Doom III and HL2? Do you agree?


Total cost at the moment for the above is £910.

[GarethH]

The 360W PSU you have on there is NOT enough. I wouldn't build an Athlon 64 with anything less than a 500W PSU! I'd say for HL2 a Radeon 9800 PRO should be ok, but I doubt you'll really be able to appreciate Doom 3 without a X800!

[ben.bayliss]

The whole PSU thing that is going on at the moment is utter madness. Even top PCs dont need any more than 350/400W of power.

The problem is that so many cheapo PSUs fail waaay below what they claim to be, which only encourages high powered cheapo PSU manufacturers.

Buy a good quality PSU and you wont have any problems. Active PFC is always nice too.

People spend £500-1000 on a PC, and often upwards of £200 of a graphics card, yet they dont want to spend decent money on a PSU which powers everything!

B

(Not a rant at anyone at all, just a venting of frustration of the hype surrounding high powered PSUs that aren't anything of the sort)

[Roy Munson]

Unless you spend £150 like I did on a Globalwin :lol:

[Ono]

I don't know if I can upgrade the PSU as it's a Mesh system and the option is just not there!

Surely they wouldn't sell the PC if the PSU was not enough?

I'd love to get the XT800 but it would mean cutting something else out and I can't see where. Also the XT800 is still new and hence being sold at a premium.

[ben.bayliss]

Except you can work safely in the knowledge that your PC wont spontaneously explode, is more efficient (= cheaper to run) and can actually handle the new things you might choose to put into it. :)

[damell]

Agree with ben.bayliss re: power supply.

As long as you go for a decent brand, 400W will be more than enough.


Questions

How does it look? Any changes you'd recommend?

How good are onboard sound cards - should I pay the extra £40 for an Audigy?

Is 1 Gig of RAM enough? (I will be doing DV editing to)

As much as I would love the Radeon XT800 card - I can't justify the preium over the 9800 Pro - even for Doom III and HL2? Do you agree?



1) I'd try and push for a 9800XT or even a X800. How much is the SONY DWU-18A - 8x DVD-RW Multi Burner Drive? Maybe go for a cheaper alternative and put money towards the graphics card?

Also your mainboard is based on the VIA chipset. I have no first hand evidence, but a lot of people I spoke to steered me away from it for whatever reason. An Nforce2 seems to be the most widely used these days

2) Never had any problems with onboard sound on my asus a7n8x in terms of performance and quality.

3) 1GB of RAM, especially at that speed, is fine

[CrazyAl]

The 360W PSU you have on there is NOT enough. I wouldn't build an Athlon 64 with anything less than a 500W PSU! I'd say for HL2 a Radeon 9800 PRO should be ok, but I doubt you'll really be able to appreciate Doom 3 without a X800!

A Radeon 9800 256MB XT better cut it - I aint upgradin' again!!

[ndwall]

I read about this one in this months Custom PC mag. Looked a good spec for £799, but the case may not suit all tastes, but what a GFX card :)

http://www.microlandtechnology.com/products.asp?recnumber=1269

Spec:
AMD Athlon 64 2800+ Processor
Thermaltake Silent Boost K8 A1838
Raidmax Mirage 278 450W Blue Case with Akasa Blue Cold Cathode Light
Akasa Fan Control Pro with 3x 8cm Blue Case Fans
Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP Motherboard nVidia nForce 3 250 Chipset
512 MB DDR 400 PC 3200 Memory
120 GB Maxtor Serial ATA 150 7200rpm Hard Drive
256 MB Sapphire Radeon X800 Pro
LiteOn SOHW-812S Black DVD Multi Format Burner
Integrated 7.1 8 Channel Surround Sound
Dual 10/100/1000 RJ45 Ethernet
2x FireWire 800 (IEEE 1394B) 6x USB 2.0
Black Floppy Drive
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home

I'm not sure what to do at the moment, is it not worth waiting for PCI Express ?

[CrazyAl]

I read about this one in this months Custom PC mag. Looked a good spec for £799, but the case may not suit all tastes, but what a GFX card :)

http://www.microlandtechnology.com/products.asp?recnumber=1269

Spec:
AMD Athlon 64 2800+ Processor
Thermaltake Silent Boost K8 A1838
Raidmax Mirage 278 450W Blue Case with Akasa Blue Cold Cathode Light
Akasa Fan Control Pro with 3x 8cm Blue Case Fans
Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP Motherboard nVidia nForce 3 250 Chipset
512 MB DDR 400 PC 3200 Memory
120 GB Maxtor Serial ATA 150 7200rpm Hard Drive
256 MB Sapphire Radeon X800 Pro
LiteOn SOHW-812S Black DVD Multi Format Burner
Integrated 7.1 8 Channel Surround Sound
Dual 10/100/1000 RJ45 Ethernet
2x FireWire 800 (IEEE 1394B) 6x USB 2.0
Black Floppy Drive
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home

I'm not sure what to do at the moment, is it not worth waiting for PCI Express ?

The only thing letting it down is the HDD - should be a 250 in there to complement the rest - still a nice rig though.

[Squattie]

The only thing letting it down is the HDD - should be a 250 in there to complement the rest - still a nice rig though.Could do with another 512mb of RAM too.

[padder]

Agree with ben.bayliss re: power supply.

As long as you go for a decent brand, 400W will be more than enough.



1) I'd try and push for a 9800XT or even a X800. How much is the SONY DWU-18A - 8x DVD-RW Multi Burner Drive? Maybe go for a cheaper alternative and put money towards the graphics card?

Also your mainboard is based on the VIA chipset. I have no first hand evidence, but a lot of people I spoke to steered me away from it for whatever reason. An Nforce2 seems to be the most widely used these days

2) Never had any problems with onboard sound on my asus a7n8x in terms of performance and quality.

3) 1GB of RAM, especially at that speed, is fine


Don't think the Nforce 2 supports the Athlon 64

[ben.bayliss]

nforce3 does tho

[belly]

i have virtually the same setup (a64 3200+, 1gb pc3200, 80gb ide, 200gb sata, 9800pro, audigy, 52x cdrw, 8x dvdrw) on an antec 350w pus, never had a problem.


couple of things

1 why are you getting a 3 port firewire card, the motherboard has 2 ports on it.
2 i would say get a sound card. i changed from the onboard to an audigy 1 and the difference is obvious.
3 the via - nforce issue. i went via as when the a64 came out the nforce was well known to have several bugs. i imagine they have been ironed out by now!
4 this is a big one.
consider waiting for a while. the k8v is a skt 754 board and support for the socket will run out soon. (don't think they will go above 3700) the new boards are skt 939. if you can wait then go for skt 939 with pci express. skt 939 boards and cpus are available now, but are very new and therefore expensive. - it's all about time

[ShakeyJake]

I'd definately go for a gig of ram. Also that DVD writer can be flashed to a Dual Layer LiteOn 832s no problem, so it's pretty future proof

[Ono]

Rather than go for a Mesh PC, I've managed to put together some rough components for a potential self-build:


AMD (Newcastle) Athlon 64bit 3200+ 754pin 512 L2cache
Kingston 1gb 400MHz DDR Non-ECC CL3 (3-3-3) DIMM (Kit 2)
MSI K8T Neo-FIS2R SKT 754 K8T800 8x AGP GB LAN 1394,S-ATA RAID 6CH Sound
Sapphire Radeon X800PRO 256MB DDR3 AGP X8 TV-Out Dvi-i Retail Box
Super Flower Real 470w Quadruple Fan Psu Silver, AMD and Intel Compliant
Western Digital 160gb Serial ATA150 7200rpm 8mb Cache- OEM
Pioneer 8x DVD DUAL R/RW IDE Burner - OEM
SONY 16x48 INT IDE DVD DRIVE - OEM


It is only rough as I have no idea if the components are actually compaptible with each other. :D

Not too bothered about minor things like Keyboard/Mouse and operating system.

All the above comes to about £875 shipped.


Views?

[damell]

Rather than go for a Mesh PC, I've managed to put together some rough components for a potential self-build:

[/b]

It is only rough as I have no idea if the components are actually compaptible with each other. :D

Not too bothered about minor things like Keyboard/Mouse and operating system.

All the above comes to about £875 shipped.


Views?

Looks good to me. Check out http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=496 for compatability. All seems to be fine.

[GarethH]

Btw for the X800 requires a 400W PSU+ anyway.

[ben.bayliss]

Super Flower Real 470w Quadruple Fan Psu Silver, AMD and Intel Compliant

Wow, sounds noisy!

If you want to save some money on the RAM, buy from Crucial.

B

[Ono]

Btw for the X800 requires a 400W PSU+ anyway.

That worries me a bit. I've now decided to go for this Mesh system:


MESH ATX MidiTower +360W PSU with tool free access
ASUS K8V Deluxe Athlon 64 Mainboard - 1600MHz SB, Dual LAN, IEEE 1394, SATA
AMD Athlon 64 3200+
1024Mb PC3200 DDR Memory (400MHz)
200GB Serial ATA (150Mb/s) Ultra Fast Hard Drive
256MB ATI Radeon X800 Pro - TV Out + DVI
52x CD-RW + SONY DWU-18A - 8x DVD-RW Multi Burner Drive (2 Drives)
Onboard Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound

Yet Mesh only use a 360W PSU and the options won't let me change it :?:

Think I'll phone then before ordering.

[swanny]

Btw for the X800 requires a 400W PSU+ anyway.

Not true. It requires only a single power connection to a 300-to-350-watt power supply

[rick67]

The X800 uses less power than a 9800 pro and Mesh aren't going to sell a system with a PSU that can't cope with the components it uses...so stop worrying and just buy it!

[snow patrol]

Btw for the X800 requires a 400W PSU+ anyway.

:cuckoo:

[Dan]

Just ordered a 1GB of DDR400 RAM which will take me upto 1.5GB. :nuts:

Next i'll go for a 9800 Pro rather than a X800.

[Ono]

Just ordered a 1GB of DDR400 RAM which will take me upto 1.5GB. :nuts:

Why? Isn't that overkill?

Next i'll go for a 9800 Pro rather than a X800.
I would have saved the dosh on the RAM and got the X800. The performance leap is much more tangible. :thumbs:


I'm going to put my PC order in during the last week of this month - just in case there are any price drops.

[Dan]

Why? Isn't that overkill?


Some of the apps I run such as Virtual PC love memory. :dork:

I would have saved the dosh on the RAM and got the X800. The performance leap is much more tangible. :thumbs:


I'm going to put my PC order in during the last week of this month - just in case there are any price drops.

Ahh sod it i'll get the X800 Pro. :lol:

[Ono]

That's the spirit. It's only money :D

[dvdric]

Ive got a 3000+ barton chip 1024meg ddr ram a radeon 9800 pro 128 meg card 120 gig hardisk windows xp pro i hope i can run it at a descent framerate :)

[swanny]

Ahh sod it i'll get the X800 Pro. :lol:

Have a look at the 6800GT. You can get it for £280 incl del - see Bargain forum.

Easily overclocked to 6800 Ultra speed and showing some damn fine benchmark scores. Looks like the 4200Ti overclock fest all over again. :thumbs:

[rick67]

X800 uses less power:

"According to ATI Technologies, RADEON X800 PRO graphics adapter consumes about 50-60W on boot-up, while RADEON 9800 XT required about 65-75W for the same operations.

This way, the power consumption of the new RADEON family is much lo0wer than that of GeForce 6800 Ultra, which is a definitely pleasing fact: there is no need to look for a super-powerful and super-expensive power supply unit, because the minimal recommendation set by ATI to the power supply units is 300W, which is definitely much more democratic than the 480W PSUs recommended by NVIDIA." from here

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/r420_2.html

and

"Even the X800 XT card draws less power than the Radeon 9800XT." from here

http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=418

[swanny]

Your Xbit article has been superseded:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040514055549.html


“For users who want to run the GeForce 6800 Ultra at its standard clocks, a good quality 350W power supply is more than enough. In fact a number of web-sites have done reviews of the GeForce 6800 Ultra using a 350W PSU. Based on this and additional test time that we have had with the GPU, our new minimum power requirement is a 350W power supply,” Mr. Alibrandi explained

[swanny]

Some of the apps I run such as Virtual PC love memory. :dork:


Just about to upgrade from 1GB to 2GB for the same reason although I use VM Ware. :D

[snow patrol]

Dan - get a VIVO x800pro. They can be flashed to XTs (so 16pipes etc)

[Ds3]

Another vote for the X800 series here :D The 9800 Pro is a cracking deal and if you are strapped for cash is definitely the one to go for, but the performance increase to the X800 is well worth the extra cash :D Although personally rather than buying an X800 Pro I'd wait for lowestonweb to get the Connect 3D X800 XT PE in stock at £319 delivered ;) I swapped my ATI X800 Pro for the X800 XT PE and immediately got a 10-15% performance increase ;)

[Ono]

Right, decision made, with a couple more questions.


Athlon 64 3400+
Asus K8V Deluxe Athlon Mobo
1 Gig DDR (400 Mhz)
GeForce 6800 GT 256 Meg :D
160 Gig SATA HDD
Sony 18a DVD writer +/-


Going to Carrera for this system as Mesh don't do the GF6800 GT yet.

Questions:

1. The mobo comes with a WiFi 802.11b option for little more - is this worth getting?

2. Is it worth getting a DVD writer that can write to dual layers?

Thanks

[Roy]

2) Never had any problems with onboard sound on my asus a7n8x in terms of performance and quality.


I've had one of these boards for a while and I get a really odd problem with it when using Quicktime, unless I open up the NVidia Control Panel and click Dolby Encoding on then off, I get sound dropouts when playing video's etc.

Kind of like a ticking sound, but as I say, the above cures it :?:

Also, does anyone know the maximum CPU I can put on the board?

[Ono]

Wooohooo, just as I was about to order with Carrera I tried out MESH again to see if they could better the other system and they could, and then some!!


Mesh Midi Tower + 475W psu
Athlon 64 K8V Deluxe mobo
Athlon 64 3400 +
1024 MB PC3200 DDR Ram (2 x 512MB)
256 MB DDR GeForce 6800 ULTRA + TVOUT + DV
200 GB SATA HDD
Sony 8x DVDRW
Sony DVDRom
Logitech KB + Optical Mouse
etc etc

All for the grand total of £1,058 delivered!


Should be delivered in 2 weeks just in time for my week off work and (hopefully) Doom 3's release :D :clap: :clap:

[DarthVader]

You could cut out the Athlon 64 3200+ and get a 3000+ instead as the only difference between the two is that the 3000+ has 512kb l2 cache as apposed to the 1mb of the 3200+. You can see for yourself the performance difference between the 3000+ and the 3200+ at the site below and make up your own mind if it is worth the extra money:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-3000_6.html

Plus I have to agree it would be worth it to buy a decent PSU. Last August I upgraded my computer and I thought I could get away with a cheap 400W PSU off dabs.com but earlier this month it packed in. Ultimately I replaced it with the 480W Tagan model (a higher spec and generally a superb PSU) which has plenty of good reviews easily accessible via google:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Tagan+TG480-U01+&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&meta=

Plus for £70.44 (inc vat) at both overclockers.co.uk and kustompcs.co.uk it is not a bad investment. It is powerful enough even for the latest Geforce 6800 range and is compliant with the upcoming BTX standard (set to replace the ATX form factor over the next few years):

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Other_PSUs_148.html

As for graphics cards I used to buy either a budget one or a midrange model but I have to say I was most definitely pleased when I bought a 256mb Geforce 5900 last November. It has eradicated jerky gaming and the need to upgrade for a while to come. If you are into games and want to play the latest games like Farcry/Doom3/HL2 at a decent resolution/detail I would definitely say one of the higher end cards is worth the extra money.

I would also like to point out that the Geforce 6800 range (standard/GT/ultra) has support for Shader Model 3 whereas the X800 range (pro/XT) only has support for Shader Model 2. Farcry (with the latest patch v1.2) has support for Shader Model 3 and it does have a notable difference over SM v2 if I remember correctly. Here is a review on Shader Model 3 in action in Farcry compared to previous Geforce versions and compared to the X800:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040705/index.html

There is a good bet that Doom3 will have support for SM3 (especially considering it carrys the nvidia logo) and I would be suprised if HL2 did not support it purely because the ATI card is still only SM2. Then again by the time HL2 comes out we will be onto the PCI Express generation of cards of SM10000000 support. :dork:

As for other things you have to ask yourself the question - do I really need that floppy drive? I have FINALLY removed the floppy drive from my desktop computer as the only person in the house that would use it these days is my mum (and she would use it once a year for reports). If she does not like that idea of no floppies then tough because I know the computers at her school have front mounted USB ports (as does my pc) and even my dad now uses a memory key to store his documents. The days of the floppy are truly gone in this house.

As for other items on your list then I guess the best idea is to shop around and check out the best possible prices. For example it would be a bit silly to buy a retail boxed hard drive rather than an OEM boxed hard drive if it costs more money (which the retail versions usually do) and have a look out for special offers.

[Ono]

Thanks for that DV.

I've actually now ordered a 3400+ and the GF 6800 Ultra.(see my last post)

Reason for ordering the 3400+ is because it was not too much more expensive and also I am likely to not upgrade the CPU on this PC ever so decided to get the highest clock speed within my budget.

A floppy disk I agree with, but for what amounts to an extra £5 I'm not going to argue.

[maledave]

That beast will surely fly!!