[F1] San Marino GP, Imola

[Panavision]

Qualifying
Live Sat 12:30 - 14:10

Race
Live Sun 12:05 - 15:05

Race highlights
Sun 23:45 - 00:45
ITV2 Mon 19:00 - 20:00

[unrealnils]

whats the :cry: for ?

[Keith]

Originally posted by unrealnils
whats the :cry: for ?


http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284270

[unrealnils]

:cry: indeed

[Panavision]

I expect Ferrari to win this race, cool temps and maybe some rain.

[Panavision]

Among Mosley's reported proposals are:


2.4 litre V8 engines which must last two races (currently, 3 litre V10 engines to last race weekend)

A return to manual gearboxes and a ban on traction control and power steering

No tyre changes during race and one tyre supplier only

12 teams on grid (currently 10)

No spare cars allowed during race weekend
The proposals are said to have been sent to all 10 F1 team principals and will be discussed at a two-day conference in Monaco next week.



one tyre supplier, but allow tyre changes.

[Andrew70]

I thought the grid was locked off at 12 teams when Toyota was a bit cheeky and opted to pay the fine for not actually racing in their first season? It was designed to stop teams like Toyota coming in and setting up from scratch (like they did) which in turn boosted the value of the existing teams.

We lost two teams in the interim but I didn't realise the grid cap had shrunk with their demise.

A.

[jolt]

I dont like the idea of decreasing engine size. A few years ago it was 3.5 litre, now 3.0 litre and now they want to make an even bigger decrease, although I can see that the decrease proposed corresponds to just lopping 2 cylinders off the engine, which will mean no major re-developements.

But surely it's just getting closer and closer to F2/F3000?

I do like the idea about the fulling manual gearbox though, and the no traction control. These things should have been done ages ago.

[The Bear]

Doesn't seem to be much to talk about GP wise with Ferrari's relentless domination, but it seems the BAR's are getting better with each race judging by the Friday practice times. Weather predictions are for a good chance of rain on Sunday.

As for the proposals, I think banning TC, and standardising tyres to one company are the best ideas. Not sure what effect losing power steering would have on the racing though.

[Si b]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but more coverage is always good.

ITV has signed a new five-year deal with formula one boss Bernie Ecclestone, which will keep the world's premier motor racing series on the network until 2010.

For the first time since it poached F1 from the BBC in 1997, ITV has negotiated a deal that allows the broadcaster to show grand prix action on ITV2 and the soon to launch ITV3, as well as its main terrestrial channel, ITV1.

When the new deal begins, from the start of the 2006 season, ITV is planning to offer expanded coverage of grand prix stars such as Michael Schumacher, Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello across all of its channels.

And hopefully will take advantage of digital TV, and not just add sum pole to see who wins.

[cervaro]

Damn, I was really hoping the BBC would get back the rights to F1. It's about time the GP's were transmitted in widescreen too. Another 6 years of inane commentary from those eejits on ITV. :oh-hum:

[The Bear]

Originally posted by cervaro
It's about time the GP's were transmitted in widescreen too. I agree, but they can only broadcast the feed they are getting from the country in question. I'd think it was more down to Bernie for this one since he owns all the commercial rights.

[Mandrill]

Camera man with some intresting shots :norty: there :lol:

[Travis]

did anyone see the camera about a min ago! they were zoomed in on this birds clevage and then on a bird for about 10 sec!

[stallion]

Yeah...Face Off between Montoya's bird and Trullis.

I would pay to watch that :norty: :clap: :D

[Mandrill]

Button :thumbs:

[locust64]

Originally posted by Mandrill
Button :thumbs: wooo hoo!!:clap: :thumbs:

[Panavision]

Originally posted by Travis
did anyone see the camera about a min ago! they were zoomed in on this birds clevage and then on a bird for about 10 sec!

Trulli's bird just, just edges it for me!!! :luv:

Button's lap was incredible :clap: Michale pushed to the edge but still got 2nd; incredible stuff from both drivers. I think JB will be pitting early, but it seems to be the optimum strategy for the top guys.

It's all coming together for BAR :thumbs:

[Si b]

Originally posted by Travis
did anyone see the camera about a min ago! they were zoomed in on this birds clevage and then on a bird for about 10 sec!

Yea that was great ;) as was the qualifying best so far of the season, found it really exciting, with many not being able to get that last sector going.

Looking forward to the race tomorrow, when do the mcclarens get a car that actually works is it the next race?

[Bearhorn]

Originally posted by stallion
Yeah...Face Off between Montoya's bird and Trullis.


I think that was Louise Griffiths, Jenson's girlfriend who's underwear the Italian cameraman was checking out ;) You can always count on the Italians for this though - I remember the days when one lucky cameraman was charged with the job of camping outside the McLaren garage for surreptitious shots of DC's squeeze :)

An excellent qualifying effort by Jenson Button. I suspect that the BARs are probably running a similar strategy to Ferrari although Michael might have a lap or two more fuel for the opening stint. If Michael Schumacher is going to be beaten tomorrow though, Jenson will need to keep him behind for the most part of the first stint as that is where Ferrari and Bridgestone have built their advantage in the first three races.

[cervaro]

Hasn't it been the case that Jenson seems to fall back a place or two at the start of each race lately? Personally I want, and expect MS to pass him at some point fairly early on to make it 4 out of 4. :)

[Sonick]

Got to give it up for Jenson

I haven't watch formula one for years but i be watching tomorrow
:clap:

[jon bda]

Go Jenson...i personally think F1 is pants but i'll be watching tomorrow...
:D

[locust64]

Originally posted by cervaro
Hasn't it been the case that Jenson seems to fall back a place or two at the start of each race lately? Personally I want, and expect MS to pass him at some point fairly early on to make it 4 out of 4. :) yes he has had some very poor starts.but why would do u want "ms"to pass him,unless youre german. surely its good for f1 to have another face/team at the front.im behind jenson all the way!!and i think it was jensons girlfriends cleavage that the camera homed in on.
and i never thought any commentator could be as excited as murray was,but james allens not far off

[Radiohead]

Not a patch on MotoGP for excitement, but tomorrow at least promises some decent action.

Button's a better driver than a lot gave him credit for.

[DanWilde1966]

Originally posted by cervaro
Hasn't it been the case that Jenson seems to fall back a place or two at the start of each race lately...
... and made those places up later in the race, to finish cleanly on the podium. :) If he manages that tomorrow, we will see something very special indeed. :thumbs:

[cervaro]

Originally posted by locust64
yes he has had some very poor starts.but why would do u want "ms"to pass him,unless youre german.

Because I'm a Ferrari fan. Thing is, if MS passes him into the first corner or indeed shortly thereafter, given recent form, that's the last Jenson will see of him! :)

[hedgie]

Haven't been as excited watching Formula 1 for years as I was today. Let's hope it's not a flash in the pan and Jenson and BAR are becoming serious contenders. I'd love him to win tomorrow, but I'd much prefer that this turned into a sustained challenge to Schumacher and Ferrari.

Formula 1 desperately needs something different to happen, and British fans especially desperately need a top driver that will take on the mantle previously worn by Mansell and Hill. As a fan that likes to see good British drivers succeeding, I have to say that the last week has been the best for British drivers for some years, with Button's pole, Wheldon winning in IRL and Wilson's impressive debut in CART. It looks like we are finally emerging from the doldrums, where Coulthard has been the best we could offer for some time!

[jon bda]

Don't forget Gary Paffet in the DTM as well...
:clap:

[Panavision]

I agree with cervaro, Jenson's starts have been average, hasn't made a place this year. I expect Michael to beat him, but it looks like Jenson has a good car underneath him, so it could be a close run.

Jenson must push during the first stint.

[Big A]

OMG get rid of that music now :nono: :oh-hum:

[Mandrill]

What a start :eek:

[DanWilde1966]

Button doing a fabulous job. John Button is "disappointed" that his son is second. LOL. Button is clearly happier on his third set of tyres...

[Radiohead]

Schumacher wasn't ever going to let Montoya past him was he?

[DanWilde1966]

Nope. In any case, the Williams cars are nowhere this weekend...

[cervaro]

Another victory for Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. 4 out of 4 this season. Shame Rubens lolled around for so much of the race.

:clap:

[DanWilde1966]

I wonder what J Villeneuve makes of the BAR success this season.... :D

[hedgie]

I'd imagine that the exit of Mr Villeneuve is a big part of the performance gain by BAR. His wages and his general unwillingness to play a team game cannot have helped BAR's performance since their creation. It can't be coincidence that the team are far more together since he has left.

If Williams, Renault or McLaren had found the same performance gain as BAR over the winter, then Ferrari would now be lagging behind. As it is, all 3 seem to have made very little progress, to the extent that BAR now look to have overtaken all 3.

Jenson looks to be the only serious challenger that MS has at the moment - and it's good to hear that MS seems to acknowledge the job that Jenson is doing. Long may Jenson's progress continue, as it's the only thing keeping me watching at the moment!

[Bearhorn]

Another exemplary drive by Michael Schumacher for four wins out of four this season :) Towards the end of 2003 a great many people were wondering where his motivation was going to come from after winning his sixth world championship. Perversely enough, now that he has nothing more to achieve he is even more motivated by doing what he is so good at and enjoys so much, it is truly wonderful to watch him race when he is on such form.

A very good drive by Jenson Button too. BAR certainly seem to have got the measure of Williams, Renault and McLaren. What will really set this season out for them is whether they can maintain this level of progress throughout the season and stay ahead of Williams and Renault.

Williams seem to be self-destructing at the moment, it was astonishing to hear Ralf and JPM have a whinge at Williams and the state of the car.

Also JPM could not have been more wrong today over his criticism of Michael Schumacher's defence of his line into Tosa on the first lap. It was truly disingenuous of him to think that trying to overtake Michael around the outside of the corner was going to leave him with anywhere else to go other than the grass on the outside if he couldn't pull the move off. JPM himself did the same thing to his team mate about 50 metres later going up the hill to Piratella by closing the door on him and forcing him onto the grass.

[cervaro]

Montoya is fast becoming the new Coulthard, i.e. talking tough but achieving less than billed, and whinging a lot! Maybe he's starting to worry that his move to McLaren in 2005 isn't going to be such a wise move after all! :lol: :cuckoo:

[DanWilde1966]

Originally posted by hedgie
I'd imagine that the exit of Mr Villeneuve is a big part of the performance gain by BAR. His wages and his general unwillingness to play a team game cannot have helped BAR's performance since their creation. It can't be coincidence that the team are far more together since he has left.

If Williams, Renault or McLaren had found the same performance gain as BAR over the winter, then Ferrari would now be lagging behind. As it is, all 3 seem to have made very little progress, to the extent that BAR now look to have overtaken all 3.

Jenson looks to be the only serious challenger that MS has at the moment - and it's good to hear that MS seems to acknowledge the job that Jenson is doing. Long may Jenson's progress continue, as it's the only thing keeping me watching at the moment!
Excellent post! I agree 100% - though I am obsessed enough with F1, to the extent that I would still watch the races, even if Ferrari won em all - which, currently, is not all that unlikely!

[Panavision]

Montoya's whinge at Michael was embarassing; Michael had the line.

As for the Alonso move on Ralf; I consider it a racing incident 'cos Ralf left room for the Renault then closed the door.

Fantastic drive by Jenson, but can't seem to keep the pace, Ferrari are incredibly consistent, Michael can do anything with the car with so much confidence.

BAR should be strong in Spain; Jenson broke the lap record there, and the car is extremely stable, so I expect him to be up there with Michael.

Ralf and Juan are not team players; I don't think they are putting enough effort into the team. I bet Frank and Patrick can't wait to get rid of Ralf now :wave:

Louise's song :gag:

[DanWilde1966]

Originally posted by Panavision
Montoya's whinge at Michael was embarassing; Michael had the line.

As for the Alonso move on Ralf; I consider it a racing incident 'cos Ralf left room for the Renault then closed the door.

Fantastic drive by Jenson, but can't seem to keep the pace, Ferrari are incredibly consistent, Michael can do anything with the car with so much confidence.

BAR should be strong in Spain; Jenson broke the lap record there, and the car is extremely stable, so I expect him to be up there with Michael.

Ralf and Juan are not team players; I don't think they are putting enough effort into the team. I bet Frank and Patrick can't wait to get rid of Ralf now :wave:

Louise's song :gag:
Another spot-on post. Agree 100%.

[The Bear]

How Montoya can maintain that Schumacher hit him and pushed him onto the grass amazes me. His comments of "Is he blind or just stupid", and then him saying he thought it was perfectly ok to push Ralf onto the grass 5 seconds later says a lot.

And people say Michael is arrogant!!

Read the insanity here (http://www.planet-f1.com/Home/story_15241.shtml).

[jon bda]

Originally posted by The Bear
How Montoya can maintain that Schumacher hit him and pushed him onto the grass amazes me. His comments of "Is he blind or just stupid", and then him saying he thought it was perfectly ok to push Ralf onto the grass 5 seconds later says a lot.

And people say Michael is arrogant!!

Read the insanity here (http://www.planet-f1.com/Home/story_15241.shtml).

Pot...kettle...etc...
:lol:

[redmosquito]

God what a big baby Montoya is, all he ever seems to do is whine these days, maybe if he concentrated more on his racing instead of moaning he would actually acomplish something.

[The Bear]

He's just warming up his skills for his move to McLaren. Ron Dennis obviously spotted a bit of himself in him. In fact I'm sure he's been watching Coulthard and Ron Dennis archive interviews.

Kimi may not be the most charismatic guy but at least he stays optimistic and doesn't apportion blame every chance he gets.

[Bearhorn]

I read those JPM comments on the Autosport website, I also saw him flip the bird at Michael on the slowing down lap at the end of the race.

JPM does seem to be getting easily riled by Michael Schumacher these days, but making silly comments in the press conferences is not going to help him beat the Ferrari. As others have said, JPM does need to re-focus his attention on his driving.

However, JPM must be wondering what everyone else is wondering. How is anyone going to beat Michael Schumacher this season? I don't think it is probable that he will win every race this season, but it is certainly possible.

To beat Michael Schumacher, first you need to outqualify him. In order to outqualify him, teams are going to need to put ludicrously low amounts of fuel in the car. Consider that James Allen mentioned that an extra lap of fuel in the car cost between 0.2-0.3 seconds per lap around Imola and this means that if Jenson Button had fuelled up to the same level as Michael Schumacher, he would have lost around 0.5 seconds on his qualifying lap. Therefore, even with Michael's moment at the Variante Alta on his blighted qualifying lap - he would still have been on pole position on comparable fuel loads.

And even when teams do put such fuel levels in their car, Michael will almost always leapfrog them during the additional fuelled laps he has in hand thanks to his astonishing ability to put in qualifying laps before he comes in for a pitstop. Also, the Bridgestones are consistent through to the end of a stint (unlike the Michelins which drop off after starting off better than the Bridgestones). Add in the fact that the first stint is so short these days, there is never any lapped traffic to contend with.

Then there is Ferrari's legendary reliability. The only thing that the other teams can hope for is that nothing can ever be totally bullet proof and that the Ferrari has to break down some day... doesn't it?

I think the only way (barring unreliability) Michael can be beaten this season is where he has a poor qualifying session (either through his own fault or through the elements) and gets bunched up with other drivers during the first stint of a race so he is not able to use his sublime ability to just pull out 'qualifying laps' when he needs them. In a straight head to head with any other driver, Michael is simply too quick in the Ferrari at the moment.

[Radiohead]

What in earth is going on at McLaren?

Schumacher must be quite amused as year after year we see the pretenders to the throne, none of whom seem mentally hard enough to take him on.

[Andrew70]

All this Michael Schumacher worship makes me wanna gag. :gag:

If you put me on a football pitch wearing top of the range boots against a bunch of 12 year olds in clogs, my legendary inability to play football would be masked too.

It's the same with Schumacher*. It's the car he sits in, the contracts that bar competitive team mates and the lack of credible opposition from the other teams that is making him look god like.
Even Bernie said the same, albeit more diplomatically.

A.

*I acknowledge he has a certain flair for driving cars quickly but then so do many others drivers.

[unrealnils]

you can only beat whats in front of you though

[unrealnils]

Q. (Olaf Bachmann - Koelner Stadt Anzeiger): Juan, can you explain your gesture on the last lap to Michael?
JPM: I just said 'what happened, what were you thinking'. That's all.
MS: I thought you were congratulating me.
JPM: I never do actually.

:clap:

[Bapapapa]

:lol:

[redmosquito]

Well personally I don't think rubens would be able to touch Michael even if they were able to race each other.

I think Michael is in a league of his own in every aspect of the sport, Rubens is in the same car, yet he constantly gets outperformed by other drivers.

The combination of having the best car and the best driver in the sport is just unstopable, but I dont believe it's all about the car, I honestly believe if you stuck michael in a williams he would still outperform Montoya and his brother.

Some may find it boring, but the guys a legend and a joy to watch race in my oppinion :notworthy

[Panavision]

Imola - fastest laps in the race

1. Michael Schumacher: 1'20"411 - lap 10
2. Jenson Button: 1'21"201 - lap 28
3. Fernando Alonso: 1'21"650 - lap 59
4. Jarno Trulli : 1'21"666 - lap 11
5. Ralf Schumacher: 1'21"689 - lap 30
6. Juan Pablo Montoya: 1'21"870 - lap 27
7. Rubens Barrichello: 1'21"879 - lap 31
8. Takuma Sato - 1'21"929 - lap 44
9. Kimi Raikkonen: 1'22"500 - lap 39
10. Giancarlo Fisichella: 1'22"654 - lap 60
11. Olivier Panis: 1'22"861 - lap 59
12. Felipe Massa: 1'22"895 - lap 36
13. Mark Webber: 1'22"931 - lap 55
14. David Coulthard: 1'22"981 - lap 42
15. Cristiano da Matta: 1'23"108 - lap 25
16. Nick Heidfeld - 1'23"381 - lap 44
17. Christian Klien: 1'23"647 - lap 27
18. Giorgio Pantano: 1'25"457 - lap 6
19. Zsolt Baumgartner - 1'26"075 - lap 58
20. Gianmaria Bruni: 1'26"857 - lap 11

[DarthPearce]

Back to the GP's with no serious overtaking once the opening laps were over.:rolleyes:

The only points of interest were seeing Button show some real world class pace in the opening stint, wondering what was happening with the BAR pitstop times and marvelling at Schumachers ability to go that much faster than everyone else at will.

Oh - and laughing at Montoyas comments at the post race press conference!:lol:

[The Bear]

Originally posted by Andrew70
It's the same with Schumacher*. It's the car he sits in, the contracts that bar competitive team mates and the lack of credible opposition from the other teams that is making him look god like.[/SIZE] So when the most talented racing driver in the world joins a struggling team (when there are championship winning drives available to him) and takes them to the top in every department, then his success and dominance is down to his poor team-mates and everyone else in the pit-lane's inability - Not because of his and his team's hard work and talent?

Sounds reasonable to me :cuckoo:

The sad fact is, Ferrari are now the most determined and hard-working team in F1 by some way, and it shows at every GP weekend. Obviously their budget helps, but you can't buy their reliability and success that easily. McLaren and Williams' budgets aren't that far off and just look at how they have fallen from their heydays.

I'm just sorry that there will never be a totally fair field of play to prove you wrong.

[jon bda]

Schumi is a very natural, very fast driver, the same as Rossi is a sheer god on a GP bike. I have no doubt that if all the F1 frontrunners were in the same cars he would still be tops...but it don't half make for some boring races. I reckon they should paint the Sauber red, then wheel that into the Ferrari garage when nobodys looking...
:norty: :lol:

[Andrew70]

Originally posted by The Bear
I'm just sorry that there will never be a totally fair field of play to prove you wrong.
Not least because MS and his handlers wouldn't allow it.

A.

[The Bear]

Well, they wouldn't have any say if Max has his way in 2008. Though still not completely level, once the Concorde Agreement ends then he can push through whatever changes the FIA comission wants regardless of whether the teams agree or not. Should certainly make things interesting assuming there's no breakaway series as currently threatened by the leading manufacturers.

[DanWilde1966]

Originally posted by The Bear
So when the most talented racing driver in the world joins a struggling team (when there are championship winning drives available to him) and takes them to the top in every department, then his success and dominance is down to his poor team-mates and everyone else in the pit-lane's inability - Not because of his and his team's hard work and talent?

Sounds reasonable to me :cuckoo:

The sad fact is, Ferrari are now the most determined and hard-working team in F1 by some way, and it shows at every GP weekend. Obviously their budget helps, but you can't buy their reliability and success that easily. McLaren and Williams' budgets aren't that far off and just look at how they have fallen from their heydays.

I'm just sorry that there will never be a totally fair field of play to prove you wrong.
This summarises the situation perfectly. Lest we forget, Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996, when bits were literally seen to fall off his car. I have the video tapes. That Ferrari was a shambles, and yet Schumacher was still challenging for the title the following year. Schumacher is better than everyone else... annoying, but empirically provable.

[Radiohead]

Indeed - he's done to Ferrari what Rossi is doing to Yamaha in MotoGP.

[Andrew70]

Originally posted by DanWilde1966
Schumacher is better than everyone else... annoying, but empirically provable.
Sorry, but that's utter rubbish.
Apart from an all to brief and mechanically blighted period with Senna, Schumacher hasn't raced against anyone of any worth.
To say that he stands above Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lauda, Senna or any others is opinion, not empirically provable.
What is provable is the way he has engineered (and I don't mean bolts and spanners) cicumstances to prevent significant opposition within his teams through contracts and team orders thus ensuring he drives in a practically one car team for championship points purposes.

He will be judged by his achievements and I don't believe they are worth as much as the others drivers' that I've mentioned because of the methods he and his people have employed.

Good, yes. Great? We'll never know.

A.

[DanWilde1966]

Originally posted by Andrew70
Sorry, but that's utter rubbish.
Apart from an all to brief and mechanically blighted period with Senna, Schumacher hasn't raced against anyone of any worth.
To say that he stands above Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lauda, Senna or any others is opinion, not empirically provable.
What is provable is the way he has engineered (and I don't mean bolts and spanners) cicumstances to prevent significant opposition within his teams through contracts and team orders thus ensuring he drives in a practically one car team for championship points purposes.

He will be judged by his achievements and I don't believe they are worth as much as the others drivers' that I've mentioned because of the methods he and his people have employed.

Good, yes. Great? We'll never know.

A.
I was referring to "everyone else" today (Raikonnen, Montoya, et al), and not the likes of Senna, Prost... We will simply never know how Schumacher would have stacked up against those guys, but I suspect very well indeed.

[Niraj]

Originally posted by Andrew70
to prevent significant opposition within his teams through contracts and team orders thus ensuring he drives in a practically one car team for championship points purposes.

So are you suggesting that Ruebens Barrichello is bound by his contract to not come anywhere within 3 places of Schumacher's finishing position??? :thinking: :thinking:

Before you start banging on about the team orders in Austria, let's put those to one side, and then have a look and see how many races MS has won due to team orders......

Forget all else, lets take San Marino 2004. Despite his slide at Variente Alta, he finished about 0.244 secs behind the pole sitter, despite carrying a heavier fuel load. If Button had a comparable fuel load, he would have finished about 0.5 secs behind his pole time, thus effectively making MS the ploe sitter.

Also, where was RB in all of this? And in the race?? Michael made up the precious seconds needed to jump over Button at the first pit stop. What did his team mate do? Nada.....he was in the thick of a battle for position during 2 of his 3 pit stops, but was unable to put in any kind of stunning laps just before he came in, to be able to make a place or two. And I dont think that that was team orders......

All MS bashers eventually will drag the argument down to one or all of the following

Adelaide 95
Jerez 97
Austria 2001/2002
Team Orders

It takes a bit of grace to admit that he is undoubtedly the most gifted driver of his generation, and also that it isnt his fault that his contemporaries are nowehre near his class or standard.

Let the battle commence.

Niraj

[Niraj]

Originally posted by Andrew70
Sorry, but that's utter rubbish.
Apart from an all to brief and mechanically blighted period with Senna, Schumacher hasn't raced against anyone of any worth.
To say that he stands above Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lauda, Senna or any others is opinion, not empirically provable.

He will be judged by his achievements and I don't believe they are worth as much as the others drivers' that I've mentioned because of the methods he and his people have employed.

Good, yes. Great? We'll never know.

A.

Sorry, missed this bit......so you saying that Fangio and Senna are purer than pure?? Surely you jest (or aren't an F1 follower)!!

Fangio changed cars mid race to win, thus deprieving his team mate of a finish......and Senna is also known to be a very aggressive driver and his on track shoves are common knowledge.

So, it would appear that the same "methods that he and his people applied" would apply to Senna and Fangio at the very least.

Niraj

[DarthPearce]

Originally posted by Niraj
Also, where was RB in all of this? And in the race?? Michael made up the precious seconds needed to jump over Button at the first pit stop. What did his team mate do? Nada.....he was in the thick of a battle for position during 2 of his 3 pit stops, but was unable to put in any kind of stunning laps just before he came in, to be able to make a place or two. And I dont think that that was team orders......

Niraj

I think it's a little unfair to compare their performances as the car is clearly designed to suit Schumacher in the way it handles. Schumacher is very comfortable with 'on the edge' handling but RB has said that the car isn't to his taste and doesn't suit his style. I think he looks slightly nervous with it too.

Don't get me wrong, I think Schumacher is a vastly superior driver to RB (and the rest of his peers) but there are other factors to consider when comparing the differing fortunes of the to Ferrari driver IMO.

[Andrew70]

Originally posted by Niraj
Sorry, missed this bit......so you saying that Fangio and Senna are purer than pure?? Surely you jest (or aren't an F1 follower)!!

Fangio changed cars mid race to win, thus deprieving his team mate of a finish......and Senna is also known to be a very aggressive driver and his on track shoves are common knowledge.

So, it would appear that the same "methods that he and his people applied" would apply to Senna and Fangio at the very least.

Niraj
I never mentioned anything about Schumacher's conduct on the track - even though I don't think his copy book is blot free.

Senna was a hard racer yes, and he did some unsportsman like things in his car, but he did them against drivers and team mates who weren't contractually obligied to give way to him. It doesn't make his actions any more tolerable but the odds were certainly stacked less in his favour than is the case with Michael.

The Fangio incident - wasn't that the one where the other driver voluntarily offered his car to him? I can't say with any certainty but I've never heard it was a contractual thing for the other guy to do what he did.

A.

[Bearhorn]

Originally posted by AndyPearce
I think it's a little unfair to compare their performances as the car is clearly designed to suit Schumacher in the way it handles. Schumacher is very comfortable with 'on the edge' handling but RB has said that the car isn't to his taste and doesn't suit his style. I think he looks slightly nervous with it too.

The reason the F2004 is more 'on the edge' is because it has a shorter wheelbase than the F-2003GA. Rubens prefers a longer wheelbase car than Michael as he cannot handle the pointy, oversteer characteristics that a short wheelbase car brings as well as Michael can (but then again, does any driver live with oversteer quite as well as Michael?). Although to be fair to Rubens, I do not think he has gone on record quite as bluntly as to state that the F-2004 isn't to his taste.

Also, you cannot really say that a Formula 1 car, with its endless set-up permutations, is 'suited' to a driver per se. While it may not be possible to alter a fundamental characteristic of a car with set-up it should be possible to either dial it out to a degree or adapt the driving style to it as Michael himself did with the long wheelbase F-2003GA. And doing no disservice to Rubens, as he is clearly a very good racing driver who would make a very good number 1 driver at any other team, he just does not apply himself to working out these issues quite as well as Michael does.

[DanWilde1966]

Meanwhile, Ferrari (it would seem) is interested in Button: http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/20855

Amazing what effect a few podiums can have!

[The Bear]

Nah. He was talking up Raikkonen too until the start of the seaon. Lets hope it doesn't have the same effect.

[GavinT]

Originally posted by Andrew70
The Fangio incident - wasn't that the one where the other driver voluntarily offered his car to him? I can't say with any certainty but I've never heard it was a contractual thing for the other guy to do what he did.

I don't know if Fangio had an actual contract that said that.................. BUT in 'effective' terms he did. He was always quite clearly the Number one driver in the team.

I personally think its academic that Schumacher has this 'contract' anyway. There's only been a few times that Rubens (and Eddie before him) have even got close to Schumi ..... at a point of the season where theoretically both men were able to challenge for the championship.

As a Ferrari fan, I always find the 2002 Austria incident somewhat unnecessary because it was pretty clear Ferrari had a big advantage that year. It was also for the win. Austria 2001 is different because it was 'only' for 2nd place that RB and MS swapped positions for........ and more importantly it was a McLaren in first place. At that point in the season McLaren were pushing Ferrari for the championship.


McLaren make me laugh, in that although there was no contract indicating Mika was no1 driver, it was always so obvious that Mika was Ron's favourite driver. The same with Mansell at Williams. He always got preferential treatment (even at the beginning of the 91 and 92 seasons, when theoretically Patrese was in with a mathematical shout of the WDC).



Anyway, in summary. Would Schumacher have won 6 (maybe 7 later this year) WDCs if Senna had lived longer......... probably not. Is he better than Senna. Mmmmmmm, tough call. I go along with a couple of the pundits and say that Senna (and Mika) were better qual drivers, and had more natural talent. Schumacher is the more complete driver, in the same vein and Jim Clark.
Assuming Senna didn't die in 94, I would probably say that at this moment of time, we'd have
Senna, 5WDC (1994 and 1995)
Schumi 4 WDC
Mika 2WDC or less???
Despite those figures, I would rate the drivers as
1. Jim Clark - Michael Schumacher
2. Senna - Fangio
3. Jackie Stewart - Nuvolari
4. Hakkinen - Gilles

All IMHO.

[Bearhorn]

Originally posted by GavinT
McLaren make me laugh, in that although there was no contract indicating Mika was no1 driver, it was always so obvious that Mika was Ron's favourite driver. The same with Mansell at Williams. He always got preferential treatment (even at the beginning of the 91 and 92 seasons, when theoretically Patrese was in with a mathematical shout of the WDC).

Ron Dennis does seem to favour one of his drivers over the other, usually to the detriment of the second driver. First it was with Senna over Prost, then Senna over Berger, Hakkinen over Coulthard and more recently Raikkonen over Coulthard.

In my opinion, Senna and Prost was a classic case of abundance of talent, there was literally too much of it in the team for Ron to manage and internal politics probably accounted for that pairing. I suspect though that Senna's talent and relative inexperiece at the time compared to Prost endeared him to Ron. But to this end, it is no surprise that Ron cites as one of his biggest Formula 1 regrets his inability to make the 'dream team' of Prost/Senna work.

Hakkinen though is a more unique case (certainly in modern day Formula 1). It is really not surprising that he and Ron developed the close relationship they did after Hakkinen's near fatal accident at Adelaide in 1995. I for one applaud Ron's professionalism with Hakkinen in sticking with his driver while he recovered because surely no top team would have taken the risk on Hakkinen had McLaren dropped him thereafter and a great talent would not have been realised.

Perhaps the most farcical of all of Ron's perceived driver 'mismanagements' though occurred in 1993 when McLaren had one contracted driver, Michael Andretti and their other driver Senna was on a 'race-by-race' basis. Although to be fair, Andretti's shortcomings as a Formula 1 driver owed little to Ron's management skills.

[hedgie]

Originally posted by Bearhorn
Perhaps the most farcical of all of Ron's perceived driver 'mismanagements' though occurred in 1993 when McLaren had one contracted driver, Michael Andretti and their other driver Senna was on a 'race-by-race' basis. Although to be fair, Andretti's shortcomings as a Formula 1 driver owed little to Ron's management skills.

Didn't they also have Hakkinen contracted, and waiting to step in if Senna didn't drive? I seem to remember by the end of the season they decided Hakkinen was the better choice for the second car, and Andretti was on his way.

[DanWilde1966]

Originally posted by hedgie
Didn't they also have Hakkinen contracted, and waiting to step in if Senna didn't drive? I seem to remember by the end of the season they decided Hakkinen was the better choice for the second car, and Andretti was on his way.
Yep - this is how I seem to recall the situation.

[Bearhorn]

Originally posted by hedgie
Didn't they also have Hakkinen contracted, and waiting to step in if Senna didn't drive? I seem to remember by the end of the season they decided Hakkinen was the better choice for the second car, and Andretti was on his way.

Hakkinen was contracted as test driver for the 1993 season as Ron honestly thought he would be able to get Senna into the lead McLaren. As it was he did on a US$1m race by race deal.

Michael Andretti never really had his heart in Formula 1 and never really got to grips with it. Notwithstanding the fact that he was racing in a largely European based series for a British team, he still ran his operation out of his home in Pennsylvania and refused to move to England. So he was dropped after the Italian Grand Prix at Monza (where ironically he achieved his best result of 3rd place) and has never been seen in Formula 1 since.

His seat was indeed taken by Mika Hakkinen. In Mika's first grand prix as a McLaren race driver, the Portugese Grand Prix at Estoril, he outqualified Senna (then he went and had a mighty crash at the last corner during the race).