Should films be left alone? Not any new fx added? What about the Star Wars SE trilogy

[orac]

Should films be left alone? Not any new fx added?

What do people think about the Star Wars SE trilogy for instance?

[*james*]

I haven't even seen the starwars SE, but I personally think that the films should be left the way they were. I mean, everyone knows everything about their fav movies (even any crap effects shots), and then if something is changed, it just doesn't seem like the same film. They should just clean up the film and present the original version in the best possible way, or have both versions of the film available. Also, if you add a load of 2001 special effects into a 1980's movie, it's gonna look weird, isn't it? I'd miss the badly matted effects of those movies! gives them a "classic" feel...... or something...

J

[Xenole]

I would prefer it if you got the orginal, untouched version of the film as a separate disc, especially with these fancy editions that keep getting released.
eg Snow White should have had the original soundtrack on the R2 disc as well as the R1.

Some films do benefit, but some classics still hold a certain appeal with something like a a mono soundtrack and possibly flecks.....

[orac]

i agree with having the choice of the mono soundtrack - but what about when loads of late 90s fx have been added to a 1977 film?

Not a restoration! Can't fault those - vertigo an obvious example.

[sariel2002]

I've just bought the original Star Wars Trilogy on DVD for £30(the discs have extras as well :)).

I got fed up with George buggering about with the best three films on the planet. Especially after the news that when the original trilogy finally is released on DVD it's going to feature EVEN MORE EXTRA FOOTAGE(including scenes featuring Bail Organa).

[orac]

i think that instead of mucking about with the trilogy, Lucas should of spent more time on the phantom menace, its not very good.

[Xenole]

True, but how many people here bought it for the story?
No matter how much it's fiddled with, or how flashy the dvd is, most people will still buy it.

[SqueakyG]

I'm not opposed to a film being re-edited or improved, as long as it is done by the original film-maker rather than a studio, and as long as it is done for artistic reasons rather than purely for money (I think the Star Wars special editions were about half and half).

But I have a problem with the CG effects in the special editions. They are crap.

You see, classic visual effects (motion control model shots, bluescreen, animatronics, puppeteering, etc) look ropey and old-fashioned. But because they are a part of the PAST, they have a TIMELESS quality. They will never age any more than they are already aged, because they are from a different "era" of visual effects. Computer generated effects, on the other hand, age terribly year by year. The medium-budget 1997 CG in the special editions looks awful now.

So basically, I think the CG has aged worse than the classical effects have aged. They have aged timelessly, and will always be respectable. But the CG has aged badly and just looks crappy. I'd rather have ropey-but-timeless classical effects, than flashy-but-badly-aged CG.

[robbiejm]

Restoration - yes, adding stuff, particularly cgi - no.

One scene in Star Wars which particularly sticks in my mind is the appalling cgi Jabba The Hut added to Episode 4. :rolleyes:

[Joober]

Tell you something, if they even consider updating Ghostbusters, i'll hunt and kill them all.

[UL]

Better think about how much CGI it is possible to add to these Harryhausen movies - Sinbad ones, for example! :cool:

Originally posted by Joober
Tell you something, if they even consider updating Ghostbusters, i'll hunt and kill them all.

[Lenny Nero]

Originally posted by sariel2002
I've just bought the original Star Wars Trilogy on DVD for £30(the discs have extras as well :)).

I got fed up with George buggering about with the best three films on the planet. Especially after the news that when the original trilogy finally is released on DVD it's going to feature EVEN MORE EXTRA FOOTAGE(including scenes featuring Bail Organa).

Yeah, thats why I'm gona keep my 9-disc CAV LD Definitive Collection in case Lucas does some more horrid things to the trilogy.
You know how he always says that 1970's and 80's effects pulled him back and he couldn't do the movies he wanted, and he waited for better times, blah blah blah,... yeah, well if that kept him from making Jar Jar Sr. and the Family, I'm glad! He turned Episode I into a live action cartoon, kind of like CGI Rogger Rabbit saturday morning quality. :mad: :(

Everyone go get original SW on original LDs while you can, you will be sorry later, and you can find some sealed still on eBay!

[amritsinghesq]

I think the definitive version is the one in the director's head, so maybe old George is just trying to realise his vision. The thing is that he's also a really good businessmen and knows how to get the most from Star Wars junkies like me by releasing his films in 50 different versions!

Personally, I think that adding a few CGI shots in the original trilogy will be beneficial when watching all 6 consecutively, but that's if the 2nd and 3rd instalments are any good.

[tonytol]

Restore the prints, but don't add things!

Star Wars 'new versions' messed with the story to make them more kiddie freindly - eg so Han doesn't kill in cold blood in the Cantina.

Keep the effects, no matter how out of date. What next? A re-release King Kong, but with a new Kong? Oh - I think they already did that.....

[I-BERT]

The added scenes in episode 4 are the worst.Like jobbiejm said,the jabba scene is bad,and the Han-Greedo is worse.
I don't think i could forgive Lucas if they edited the stormtrooper banging his head.
They should leave films as they were.From an artistic point of view,a Director/Producer should have more sence.
Van gogh-"Well the sun flowers look ok,but i just bought an airbrush so give me that painting back so i can put a nice background in."
I think the most popular view will be-
Restoration good
Added scenes bad

[orac]

Ghostbusters is a great film - well 1/2 of it, then when they get on top of the building its terrible was it unscripted, sponteneus acting?

If they want to redo that, then be my guest.

[Bolch]

Originally posted by orac
was it unscripted, sponteneus acting?

Yes the line:

"Gozer the Gozerian: good evening. As a duly designated representative of the City, County and State of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activities and return forthwith to your place of origin or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension" was completly ad libbed < /sarcasm>

[Lenny Nero]

Originally posted by I-BERT
The added scenes in episode 4 are the worst.Like jobbiejm said,the jabba scene is bad,and the Han-Greedo is worse.
I don't think i could forgive Lucas if they edited the stormtrooper banging his head.
They should leave films as they were.From an artistic point of view,a Director/Producer should have more sence.
Van gogh-"Well the sun flowers look ok,but i just bought an airbrush so give me that painting back so i can put a nice background in."
I think the most popular view will be-
Restoration good
Added scenes bad

Yes indeed, and expect the dear Lucas to add even MORE CGI SFX to the original SW trilogy by the time they get to its DVD release in 2004/5, that's what he said himself he wants to do! And don't expect the originals to be available! If I were you, I would go get those unedited, unbutchered LDs of the originals ASAP

[robbiejm]

Some of the effects in The Phantom Menace look worse than the older trilogy, purely because a lot of the stuff is actual physical objects, even if there only models or whatever, rather than dodgy supposedly superior, graphical effects.

eg The Banthas in Episode VI look better than any of the computer generated beasties in TPM. Wouldn't it be better for the next one, if they just got off there arses and out of the damn computer lab and did it properly.

:confused:, never gonna happen though is it......

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by Lenny Nero
Yes indeed, and expect the dear Lucas to add even MORE CGI SFX to the original SW trilogy by the time they get to its DVD release in 2004/5, that's what he said himself he wants to do! And don't expect the originals to be available! If I were you, I would go get those unedited, unbutchered LDs of the originals ASAP

I would, only I haven't got an LD player. :(

Looks like I'll have to go VHS. :eek: :D

[Dear Mr Echo]

Did anyone see the item over on AICN - Spielberg tinkering around with ET?
There is a trailer for the 20th Anniversary edition on the Grinch DVD - all it showed were that some shots of Federal Agents guns have been replaced with walkie talkies (... I've just realised what a ridiculous name that is)... but there are other changes apparently including a CG ET.

The thing is, even though this film, Star Wars, the Harryhaussen films mentioned above were made at a time when SFX technology was, for want of a better word, cruder than it is today, they all work and work well. The millions of people who have seen these films worldwide are testament to that - why tinker. Leave them alone... get on with something new. I sort of understand Geoge Lucas wanting to give the SW series an overall tone but in fact unless you re-shoot the entire movie that isn't going to happen - the addition of the new SFX in SW actually makes them more uneven.

My personal least favourite addition to SW is the Jabba scene - the CG is actually badly done - Jabba doesn't look at all like he did in ROTJ even though he is integrated into the scene quite well. I'm surprised this ever got into the final cut... ILM had already shown what they could do with Jurassic Park and this seemed like a big leap backward. If he needed to any thing it was this new scene.

Andrew

[dunctay]

the sound of the cash till - i can understand a directors wishing to go back and tinker with thier past productions for a new young audience, but Lucas goes way too far with the star wars films.

The Exorcist is available in 3 versions already

the first release is the original movie as seen at the pics

the anniversary contains a washed out dream sequence changed warner logo ( sacrilage) and some smoother cuts during the end priest possession

and the version never seen - christ knows wyhat went on there it ruins all the mood of the original.

it it improves the film great but ive yet to see an original release bettered

[SqueakyG]

The trouble with the Star Wars special editions is that it destroys all the good scenes, and destroys characterisation. The vusial effects aren't just eye candy, they AFFECT the movie! Here are the worst things George Lucas did to ruin A New Hope:

Mos Eisley:
We have Alec Guiness, one of the best actors in the history of cinema, delivering a line with ultimate wisdom and authority: "Mos Eisley spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." Then what is the first show we see of Mos Eisley? A new CG animation of comedy slapstick droids! Then comedy slapstick jawas falling off an animal! The new CG completely contradicted the authority of Obi-Wan. So... is Mos Eisley really a place in which we must be cautious, or is a place where we can laugh at slapstic comedy?

Ben's Jedi mind trick:
Here is a wonderful scene. Their speeder is surrounded by stormtroopers, and Ben does the Jedi mind trick to get them out of the situation. A nice subtle scene, based on the looks on the actors' faces, and small hand gestures. So what does Lucas do for the special editions?? He adds people, droids and beasts of burden walking right in front of the shot! This BLOCKS the image of the stormtroopers surrounding the speeder. Then during the subtle Jedi mind trick, we have flying driods and other assorted crap interfering in the frame. This KILLS the scene!! I mean come on, what director purposely wants to ADD people walking right in front of the camera during an important shot? If someone did that on the set tehy would be sacked for spoiling the take. But now Lucas purposely ADDS it! Something that any other filmmaker would purposely avoid!

CG Jabba:
Lets ignore the fact that the CG looks truly awful, and Jabba is the wrong colour and wrong size. I want to concentrate on the moment when Han steps on Jabba's tail and Jabba squeals with pain. The ILM effects guys were really patting themselves on the back for coming up with such a brilliant idea. Harrison Ford walked around the actor... so how can he walk around Jabba? They really thought they were clever for getting Han to step on Jabba's tail. But they didn't realise how much it RUINS the whole concept of Jabba! Jabba is supposed to be an evil nasty gangster, who would throw you to the Rancor at his slightest whim. Yet here, Han can step on his tail, causing him enough pain to make him scream out in pain, and what does Jabba do? Does he fry Han immediately? No, he backs off and says, "Han... oh go on, I'll let you off this time, pay me later, it's okay". So this POINTLESS scene not only looks crap, but it also destroys the character of Jabba and destroys the concept of the jabba situation being a black cloud hanging over Han's head.

[robbiejm]

Nice post!, but lets face it, all the SE stuff is crap.

Lucas is obviously surrounded by yes men, who haven't got the bottle to criticise his 'wisdom'.

[Letsgetdigital]

They're Lucas's films.

He can do what he likes with them.

And couldn't give a monkey's danglies of what any of you think.

If he put Jar Jar Binks in the original films and released them on DVD you would all buy them.

Come to think of it if Mickey Mouse was in them you'd still buy the DVD.

Actually wasn't he Lando's Co-pilot on the Falcon in ROTJ??

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
They're Lucas's films.

He can do what he likes with them.

Yep, but the more he tampers with them, the worse they get. He needs to be told. ;)

And couldn't give a monkey's danglies of what any of you think.

Well thats obvious isn't it, which is why the SEs are such an appalling travesty.

If he put Jar Jar Binks in the original films and released them on DVD you would all buy them.

I wouldn't, I'd stick with the remastered VHS widescreen versions from 1995.

Come to think of it if Mickey Mouse was in them you'd still buy the DVD.

Wrong again.

[orac]

Lucas career has been dwindling since his co-work on the Jones films.

So just rehash the successful stuff - The Wars trilogy.

It like Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells 1,2,3,....


He can still win with a decent episode 2, but will that occur?

[Letsgetdigital]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robbiejm
Come to think of it if Mickey Mouse was in them you'd still buy the DVD.

Wrong again. [QUOTE]

Oh So that's why the SE versions sold so poorly, because you are in the majority. Who is to say if Lucas is right or wrong, they're his stories and no one elses. I applaud him for doin what he likes with the movies, contrary to the "we fear change" crew.

I like the fact that he updated the movies to SE. Sure some new scenes affected the original stories, but all they did was change it.

So you stick to your VHS versions and your small TV to watch them on in your wood panelled living room and I'll continue to enjoy the Star Wars saga as it develops :)

Changism rules!

[Michael Mackenzie]

Personally I'm against even restoring the prints. Don't get me wrong, I'm amazed at what the technicians can do to rid the film stock of grain and "flecks", but it just seems wrong. A film without film artifacts is not, in my opinion, a film. This is why all-digital transfers such as those employed on the Toy Story films and Final Fantasy disgust me - they look like plastic, they're so flat.

[Letsgetdigital]

Originally posted by Whiggles
Personally I'm against even restoring the prints. Don't get me wrong, I'm amazed at what the technicians can do to rid the film stock of grain and "flecks", but it just seems wrong. A film without film artifacts is not, in my opinion, a film. This is why all-digital transfers such as those employed on the Toy Story films and Final Fantasy disgust me - they look like plastic, they're so flat.

DVD is probably not the best format you then I guess ;)

Originally posted by orac
Lucas career has been dwindling since his co-work on the Jones films.

So just rehash the successful stuff - The Wars trilogy.

It like Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells 1,2,3,....


He can still win with a decent episode 2, but will that occur?
So you measure career by what? Obviously not money?

[orac]

too right i don't.

as someone put here, he could bring out new films about jar-jar binks and people would still waste money on it - and make him
money.

Its about quality...

Also i aint going to stick to my vhs copies, i have really had enough of star wars at present.

Lucas has flogged it to death, hes competing with the police academy series.

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
[B]
Oh So that's why the SE versions sold so poorly, because you are in the majority. Who is to say if Lucas is right or wrong, they're his stories and no one elses. I applaud him for doin what he likes with the movies, contrary to the "we fear change" crew.

You must be the only Star Wars fan in the world that prefers the SEs. Is your favourite scene in Episode VI the new added Jabba The Hutt part by any chance?.

I like the fact that he updated the movies to SE. Sure some new scenes affected the original stories, but all they did was change it.

He didn't update them, he ruined them.

So you stick to your VHS versions and your small TV to watch them on in your wood panelled living room and I'll continue to enjoy the Star Wars saga as it develops :)

Changism rules!

:rolleyes:, It was fine as it was, it didn't need to be 'developed' as you call it.

It's change for change sake, and it doesn't 'rule'.

[Letsgetdigital]

Originally posted by robbiejm
Oh So that's why the SE versions sold so poorly, because you are in the majority. Who is to say if Lucas is right or wrong, they're his stories and no one elses. I applaud him for doin what he likes with the movies, contrary to the "we fear change" crew.

You must be the only Star Wars fan in the world that prefers the SEs. Is your favourite scene in Episode VI the new added Jabba The Hutt part by any chance?.

No it's not. My favourite bit is the Death Star attack. Thought the CGI on Jabba scene was a bit poor but never mind I'll live.

I like the fact that he updated the movies to SE. Sure some new scenes affected the original stories, but all they did was change it.
He didn't update them, he ruined them.

In your opinion, obviously.

:rolleyes:, It was fine as it was, it didn't need to be 'developed' as you call it.

It's change for change sake, and it doesn't 'rule'. [/B]

Change is inevitable, think about the Dodo ;) So I guess you haven't seen TPM in case it "tampered" with your perception of the Original Trilogy, and you certainly didn't buy it did you...?

By the way Robbiejm, I'm not getting at you, I just get fed up with the sheepish slagging off of a set of films designed for kids and criticised by adults.

[Michael Mackenzie]

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
DVD is probably not the best format you then I guess ;)Short of carting home a projector and the actual film reels, I don't think I have much alternative, do I?:D

I cite The Rock (Criterion) as how it should be done. Or the first minute of The Craft.

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
Change is inevitable, think about the Dodo ;) So I guess you haven't seen TPM in case it "tampered" with your perception of the Original Trilogy, and you certainly didn't buy it did you...?

This thread isn't really to do with TPM, it's to do with ruining classics, for absolutely no good reason.

By the way Robbiejm, I'm not getting at you, I just get fed up with the sheepish slagging off of a set of films designed for kids and criticised by adults.

Maybe thats because most of the people in these forums grew up with Star Wars, and I disagree that they're purely 'kids' films. TPM is, but mainly because of Jar Jar.

[dangermouse]

Originally posted by orac
Lucas has flogged it to death, hes competing with the police academy series.

At this point I'd like to add that I enjoyed Police Academy 1-5 more than the Phantom Menace :D :D :D :D

But then I always found Bobcat Goldthwait ('Zed') to be a funny chap for some reason.

And then there is Lieutenant Callahan...........:p ;)

[cervaro]

If I remember correctly all the Star Wars films have been U certificates, which has always been associated with kids films. George Lucas is on record as saying the original Star Wars movie was meant to be similar to the Saturday morning serials at the cinema, watched mainly by kids.

As to doctoring the original trilogy, consider this fact. If Lucas hadn't started restoring the movies in the mid-90's, the celluloid originals may have been lost forever. I'd rather have the movies preserved and the CGI elements present than no movies at all in the future. The Greedo scene was poorly done in the SE, so I would have left that alone, otherwise I like the SE's. My 1995 widescreen THX VHS tapes are packed away safely for the future, so I have the best of both worlds.

If Lucas wants to tinker with the movies again some day, I won't be bothered. In fact, I'd like some of the deleted footage restored and inserted to expand the movies overall running time. Seamless branching on DVD would be the best solution to keep the detractors happy.

I just want all the movies on DVD as soon as possible, and in as good a package as the recent EP1 2-disc set.

[robbiejm]

Originally posted by cervaro
If I remember correctly all the Star Wars films have been U certificates, which has always been associated with kids films. George Lucas is on record as saying the original Star Wars movie was meant to be similar to the Saturday morning serials at the cinema, watched mainly by kids.


Fair enough, I was just implying that adults enjoy them as much as kids. :D

[SqueakyG]

Interviews with Lucas in 1977 say that he aimed the first Star Wars film at "boys aged around 14".

I think A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back are "family" films. This means they can be enjoyed equally by all generations.

Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace, on the other hand, are "childrens" films. This means they are aimed exclusively at children. Sure, adults can get a lot out of it too. but you must remember that the cuteness of the Ewoks and the slapstick comedy of Jar Jar are aimed EXCLUSIVELY at young children, and are detrimental to the film for older viewers.

Oh, and the person who said that U certificates are for childrens films: Actually "Uc" is the children's certificate... "Universal, suitable for all, particularly suitable for children". The Star Wars films are U certificate, which is simply "Universal, suitable for all".

[britboy1979]

Just to be pedantic...

the Dodo got killed by humans, that's why it died out. It's got absolutely nothing to do with change...

And I don't like the Starwars SE's either, they should have been left as they were.

My 2p worth...

[Lenny Nero]

I absolutely agree with Robbiejm on all his points.
Letsgetdigital obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, and doesn't really care or like the movies enough, as he said he "can live with" the CGI butchery.

But Whiggles, you're going too far as to say that restoration is not needed or wanted! It's nice to see the movies in such a condition that one might think they were just released, brand new prints. Some DVDs of older films look even better than they did in theaters and there is nothing wrong with that.
Final Fantasy's transfer is perfect and that's how it should be with all the other movies. I don't see why you like imperfections in this case.

Squeaky's analysis of some CGI modifications is excellent, and I've always liked miniature models, etc, to graphics as they look more real.

Oh my god, look what that "person" said here:

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
I love the Phantom Menace, it's great.

And Jar Jar Binks is funny.

Without him it would be too serious a film.

He make me laugh :)
:eek: :mad:
Daaaamn.
Everyone leave him alone, he is 13. :p

[Mike]

<b>If I remember correctly all the Star Wars films have been U certificates, which has always been associated with kids films</b>

So next time the kids are over, treat them to a double bill of "Remains of the Day" and "Sense And Sensibility".

[I-BERT]

I was just wordering the other day if star wars will be classed as a classic in another 100 years or so.If so,which version will people be watching.If you were studying S-FX,and the history of,then "The Trilogy SE"would confuse people.

Lucas should release the originals for people in the future to admire the groundbreaking technics they invented.In 1977!
I wouldn't say no to them either.:D

[Michael Mackenzie]

Originally posted by Lenny Nero
But Whiggles, you're going too far as to say that restoration is not needed or wanted! It's nice to see the movies in such a condition that one might think they were just released, brand new prints. Some DVDs of older films look even better than they did in theaters and there is nothing wrong with that.
Final Fantasy's transfer is perfect and that's how it should be with all the other movies. I don't see why you like imperfections in this case.It's a personal peeve. I can't really explain it myself, but I just like a little bit of reminder that I'm actually watching a film. To be fair, Final Fantasy actually does quite a good job, because it is quite grainy, which makes it look a little bit like film stock, even though it isn't. I loathe the transfers of the Toy Story films, because they look far too lifeless. When I watch them, I don't feel like I'm watching a film, I feel like I'm watching a made-for-TV movie or something similar, and it loses the whole "cinema" feel.

I don't really mind people trying to go for as clean a print as possible, but I feel that all-digital transfers with nothing struck on film are -- well, not so much a BAD idea -- but they just don't appeal to me.

[Letsgetdigital]

Originally posted by Lenny Nero
I absolutely agree with Robbiejm on all his points.
Letsgetdigital obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, and doesn't really care or like the movies enough, as he said he "can live with" the CGI butchery.

Sorry, I'm afraid I love movies. I like the idea of them being on a living canvas rather than remaining as historical timepieces. It's no different to musicians reinterpreting their songs. I don't see additional effects as Butchery, they are just a different interpretation made by the author. Revisits and SEs of films are still new to film-making, but I think it's a growing aspect of film-making and it also gives studios the chance to put old films back on the cinema again, the best place to see films like Star Wars, Apocalypse Now and other classics that are bound to get revisited in time.

Hopefully Spielberg can revisit AI at some point and finish it off ;)

Originally posted by britboy1979
Just to be pedantic...

the Dodo got killed by humans, that's why it died out. It's got absolutely nothing to do with change...

And I don't like the Starwars SE's either, they should have been left as they were.

My 2p worth...

And humans arriving in their environment wasn't a change...??

[Ol' Blue Eyes]

Let directors do what they want with films - I'm looking forward to the new Apocalypse Now as much as anything this month - but there's no reason not to make the original versions available to people who prefer them. If the altered cuts of the Star Wars trilogy and ET are the only versions that are released on DVD then Spielberg and Lucas deserve a damn good slapping. :mad:

[EdgeOfVictory]

The SE of A New Hope didn't bother me that much, although the altered scenes where Greedo shoots first, and the one with Jabbo do look appalling (and Jabba's size in it really annoyed me) - it was the Empire Strikes Back edition that really baked my noodle!

(a) The snatching of scenes from RotJ - we have Luke screaming uncannily like the Emperor when he falls jumps down the middle of Cloud City. We also have the scenes of Vader flying to his Star Destroyer in the Lambda class shuttle, which were taken from the start of RotJ. Oh dear

(b) Changing Vader's dialogue from "Bring my shuttle" to "Alert my start Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" was also tacky. Apart from the fact that it sounds as though someone has replaced his oxygen pump to a helium one, I thought it didn't sound right - the former had a tone which commanded respect, which the latter falis to convey"

However, I didn't mind the majority of the Cloud City changes, but those changes I mentioned were REALLY poorly done and were really tacky!

To be honest, I didn't see much difference with RotJ - apart from that awful ending. Fair enough, the Ewok party wasn't exactly brilliant but it was ceratinly alot better than the CGI shots of Cloud City, Tatooine and Coruscant! Only good thing about this was that the music here was better.

I do have my 1995 remastered versions of these films also - although, unlike someone said, I DO see the Lucas Cash cow releasing these on DVD - the majority of the fans would demand it and he would relish the excuse to set out another set of DVDs!

[Letsgetdigital]

Originally posted by Ol' Blue Eyes
Let directors do what they want with films - I'm looking forward to the new Apocalypse Now as much as anything this month - but there's no reason not to make the original versions available to people who prefer them. If the altered cuts of the Star Wars trilogy and ET are the only versions that are released on DVD then Spielberg and Lucas deserve a damn good slapping. :mad:

Good point well made. Also looking forward to Reduz, but the original was long enough, so I think I'll be taking my sleeping bag and flask of hot tea for the new one...

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
Also looking forward to Reduz, but the original was long enough, so I think I'll be taking my sleeping bag and flask of hot tea for the new one...

i'd say that the 'length' of a film is a highly relative concept that depends totally on the pacing of the editing. this has been said before on this forum (by MB i think) but i've suffered massive tedium in 'short' 90 minutes movies while some 3 hour+ films have simply flown by. i'm hoping that the restored scenes in apocalypse now: redux will actually help the pacing so you may find it actually seems "shorter" .... if you're still awake that is!

[RoboCop4]

Originally posted by EdgeOfVictory
To be honest, I didn't see much difference with RotJ - apart from that awful ending. Fair enough, the Ewok party wasn't exactly brilliant but it was ceratinly alot better than the CGI shots of Cloud City, Tatooine and Coruscant! Only good thing about this was that the music here was better.

Personally, I think the *new* ending for RotJ is much superior to the original version. The Tatooine and Coruscant scenes tied in with storylines from the (yet unwitten) Episodes 1 to 3. I dunno why Cloud City was included though, as it's not a major part of the overall story. Perhaps they just wanted to re-use the nice CGI model from ESB SE again.

The pros and cons of the Star Wars SEs seem to be a recurring theme on these forums... The consensus seems to be that we like some of the new material, but not all of it. But how was George Lucas supposed to know what audiences would and wouldn't like when he decided to rework the trilogy? He got it quite wrong with JarJarBinks in TPM, so it stands to reason that the man doesn't really know what people want.

Oh yeah, and I can't understand why Luke's fight with the Rancor in RotJ wasn't cleaned up. That really <u>does</u> look dated.

[Ben Martin]

following the exact question posed by this thread, i do think it is okay for new effects to be added to existing movies if it allows the director to complete their "original vision" (though what a dangerously vague concept that is) so long as the story, plot and characters remain intact. additions that fix genuine problems/difficulties with the plot (i.e. redux) seem warranted.

i'm glad they made the star wars special editions though, if only because it made them rescue, repair and restore the original film stock (which was, after all, originally the sole intent of the re-release). hopefully this restored original print will one day be used to produce the original cuts of the movies on dvd. however, i very much doubt it. :(

EdgeOfVictory - the reason that new line that vader utters sounds so bad is because they did not use james earl jones for the voice! :eek: this would still be outrageous even if lucasfilm had had to pay him, but i'm sure he would have done it for free (as he has previously stated if required for vader's voice in episode III).

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by RoboCop4
Personally, I think the *new* ending for RotJ is much superior to the original version.

me too, though almost entirely due to the new music.

But how was George Lucas supposed to know what audiences would and wouldn't like when he decided to rework the trilogy?

of course he could never know 'for sure', but you'd think it reasonable to expect him to have realised that tampering with the story, plot and/or characters would = bad, and that fixing clear technical deficiencies would = good.

He got it quite wrong with JarJarBinks in TPM, so it stands to reason that the man doesn't really know what people want.

indeed. while we have to remember that without lucas there'd be no star wars for us at all, i think that for all his many qualities he regularly comes up with just plain bad ideas. but that's why you work in a creative team, right? well, you'd hope so. it's no coincidence that the more collaborative projects of star wars and, especially, empire were far superior movies to the ruled-by-the-iron-rod-of-lucas jedi and the sunk-by-the-"yes men" episode I. rick mccallum is just too nice a guy to produce these movies. sometimes he just needs to shout "cut!" himself and say "george, what are you thinking?! this is total *********!!" :D ah, i wish ....

Oh yeah, and I can't understand why Luke's fight with the Rancor in RotJ wasn't cleaned up. That really does look dated.

i agree. heavy matt lines galore. and when are they going to finally colour in those lightsabers properly in star wars?! surely for the dvd release?

[Letsgetdigital]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
i'd say that the 'length' of a film is a highly relative concept that depends totally on the pacing of the editing. this has been said before on this forum (by MB i think) but i've suffered massive tedium in 'short' 90 minutes movies while some 3 hour+ films have simply flown by. i'm hoping that the restored scenes in apocalypse now: redux will actually help the pacing so you may find it actually seems "shorter" .... if you're still awake that is!

Thought the sleeping bag comment would cause an issue. It was meant as an indication of comfort rather than an intention to sleep. After all I did say I was looking forward to Redux...

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by Letsgetdigital
Thought the sleeping bag comment would cause an issue. It was meant as an indication of comfort rather than an intention to sleep. After all I did say I was looking forward to Redux...

nope. no "issue". just referring back to your original post and trying to keep it light and friendly. :) while i strongly disagree with almost everything you have posted on this thread, i still think your opinion is as valid as everyone else's and find a few of the comments you received above a bit harsh in their delivery, regardless of any technical accuracy.

[Letsgetdigital]

Haha thanks for the friendly comment. The fact is all I was trying to do throughout the discussions is play devil's advocate, and I'm pleased to see that there is someone on the thread who is actually prepared to see the other side of a discussion :)

[nick69]

did not[/u] use james earl jones for the voice! :eek: this would still be outrageous even if lucasfilm had had to pay him, but i'm sure he would have done it for free (as he has previously stated if required for vader's voice in episode III). [/B]

He is already contracted to supply about 4 lines of dialogue for the end of ep3.

[dan13l]

Three examples where this doesn't work :

Sparticus : Good effort by one A. Hopkins, but it just doesn't work when watched as part of the rest of the movie.

Night of the Living Dead : Extra scenes sucked. Laughable.

Halloween : Extra material kills the film (glad we've got the option of watching the original cut).

However, while these films are worse for the extras, don't we all love to have them, simply for the trivia value? I think so long as we have the choice of watching the original movie, why not enhance/tweak/improve.

I for one enjoyed the new Star Wars movies far more than TPM.

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by nick69
He is already contracted to supply about 4 lines of dialogue for the end of ep3.

which, if true, makes not using him for the empire: se even worse still! how lazy, and disrespectful of your own work and the fans, can you get? that said, i still can't work this out as i honestly don't think george is lazy or disrespectful to his own work (regardless of what any of us think of it) and i cannot come up with a good reason for him not using james earl jones.

i'm not sure whether your information is correct though, and i would be interested to know where you got it from. i've heard many variations on it myself in the last five or six years, i.e. pre-dating the special editions. still, as long as jones is back if needed.