Star Wars Ep. 1 Conspiracy! [Archive] - Forums @ The Digital Fix

Ben Martin

22-10-2001, 15:28

just read the review and also have to agree with it. i was watching parts of the film again last night on my 19" monitor and the edge enhancement was so apparent you didn't need to be a home cinema buff to spot it. kind of ironic that they apply edge enhancement on a format that is bought predominantly by people with displays large/good enough to show the damage it does to the picture.

that said, i don't let it spoil my enjoyment of the film and so i agree with john316 on that point. it's just annoying. if they didn't do it then we'd all have a picture we thought was great (correction, i do think it's great overall, it just isn't reference quality when it should be). and no-one who cares about their viewing experience so little that they watch dvd on a 28" or less screen is going to say, "hang on, that image it lacking a bit in sharpness!".

that's the problem: edge enhancement caters for those who couldn't care less anyway, while causing some detriment to the viewing experience of those who care deeply and who have ensured the success of the format over the last few years.

JohnMac

22-10-2001, 15:40

Perhaps edge enhancement (the Force: which surrounds all things) is normal in the Star Wars universe. :rolleyes: ;)

DarkAvenger

22-10-2001, 18:57

Apparently it is not edge enhancement at all, but something to do with the fact that many scenes were filmed in front of blue screen. I think it is mentioned on the disc somewhere, but it would not be surprising as let's face it, there are a hell of a lot of CGI characters and objects in this film. Why do people want to find fault with this film so much? Okay it is not the greatest film in the world, to be frank it is average but the DVD has to be one of the best yet and praise has to be given to Lucas and his team for not just putting unfinished deleted scenes on the disc, they took the time, money and effort to actually complete them all.

THX 1138

22-10-2001, 20:08

Jenz who wrote the review is very knowledgable about film transfers to DVD. He takes great pride in his reviews, and sometimes this can come accross as being rather anal, but is not meant.

The TPM transfer is very bad for Edge enhansement from a 28" set to a 7.5ft wide screen (i know i have both) I use a high quality Crt Projector made by Barco, Jenz uses the next model up from me. It is not as obvious on the projector because i use a htpc for playback and the image line doubled, but on my Toshiba W/S tv it is very noticable!

No body is going out of their way to slag off this disc or the film, and certainly not Jenz, but there are far better transfers out there and i was very disapointed with TPM's image, but the sound on the other hand is fantastic, with bass below 20hz.

"Maybe it only effects those with 40" rear projectiong sets, I thought edge inhancement was common on such TVs anyway ?."

Not true, it's just that most people dont know how to use the convergance so everything looks bad. The fact is a Front projection set up, like a Barco CRT and high quality screen will wipe the floor with nearly anyother technology!

"Yeah, everyone watching their DVDs on 120" screens will be appalled with the quality!!! "

Sounds like someone needs to see a professionally installed system before making a sweeping generalisation like that. My Barco Data 800 CRT will wipe the floor with the image on your TV! Plus its 7.5ft wide. DVD's look absolutely brilliant, so go see a decent CRT projector doing its magic before making comments like that.

Creamstick

22-10-2001, 20:16

I found the picture quality to be excellent on my 32" set. Sure, the edge enhancement (or whatever it actually may be) is noticeable, but I don't think it detracted from the overall quality.

Sure, it's not as good as Se7en SE, Fight Club or some others, but if this was a transfer of any other movie, it would be deemed just fine.

Ben Martin

23-10-2001, 13:44

Originally posted by DarkAvenger
Apparently it is not edge enhancement at all, but something to do with the fact that many scenes were filmed in front of blue screen. I think it is mentioned on the disc somewhere,

i think you're getting confused here, as this definitely is edge enhancement. a textbook case at that. the mention on the disc is to do with something else entirely.

there are many reasons why it isn't due to filming characters against bluescreen, but the main one is that the image for this disc came from the film masters - none of which displayed any halos around the edges of objects and characters. hence, the halo effects have been created by something deliberately applied to the transfer for the dvd - edge enhancement.

bddidier

23-10-2001, 14:28

Originally posted by Ben Martin

that said, i don't let it spoil my enjoyment of the film and so i agree with john316 on that point. it's just annoying. if they didn't do it then we'd all have a picture we thought was great (correction, i do think it's great overall, it just isn't reference quality when it should be). and no-one who cares about their viewing experience so little that they watch dvd on a 28" or less screen is going to say, "hang on, that image it lacking a bit in sharpness!".

that's the problem: edge enhancement caters for those who couldn't care less anyway, while causing some detriment to the viewing experience of those who care deeply and who have ensured the success of the format over the last few years. [/B]

Well just pay my rent, my car expenses and my travels and then I will be able to afford a huge screen in a huge appartment! Your remark is just plain stupid and offensive. And I've started to buy DVDs to watch on my computer as most of my friends so I'm not sure the early adopters were all so well equiped. That said I'm all for quality and edge enhancement is not the way to go. But England is the most expensive country in the world sorry.

Grover

23-10-2001, 14:48

Originally posted by bddidier
Your remark is just plain stupid and offensive.

Which part of Ben's comment is stupid or offensive? Or more to the point, what are you actually disagreeing with?

Ben Martin

23-10-2001, 15:30

indeed, i'm not sure what you're disagreeing with bddidier. however, looking back i do think there might be room for misinterpretation in my earlier post. when i said "edge enhancement caters for those who couldn't care less anyway" i was referring only to those people with screens smaller than 28" who do not appreciate that a slightly softer image would be the lesser of two evils. i was not referring to those people who do appreciate the pros and cons of the situation but who can't afford a screen above 28" .... i'm one of them! :)

Originally posted by bddidier
Well just pay my rent, my car expenses and my travels and then I will be able to afford a huge screen in a huge appartment! Your remark is just plain stupid and offensive. And I've started to buy DVDs to watch on my computer as most of my friends so I'm not sure the early adopters were all so well equiped. That said I'm all for quality and edge enhancement is not the way to go. But England is the most expensive country in the world sorry.

er .... you're preaching to the converted here mate. sounds like you and i ironically couldn't be more alike in these regards. as Grover could have told you, i too watch dvds on my pc. have done for 3 and a half years and still am unable to afford to do otherwise. my screen doesn't get any bigger than a 19" monitor and isn't looking likely to for some time as i am currently unemployed. huge appartment? i wish! :eek:

anyway, i think we got some wires crossed before and we're clearly thinking alike at the end of the day. i strongly agree with your comment of "That said I'm all for quality and edge enhancement is not the way to go." just because you and i can't see the edge enhancement at a distance from our pc monitors doesn't mean we shouldn't stand up against something that spoils the image for many others.

Fat Man Hackett

24-10-2001, 17:29

Guys!

I think he was moaning at THX 1138's comments...

Jeez... I've had a bad day at work, I don't need a bad day on the forums ;)

Ben Martin

24-10-2001, 17:46

Originally posted by Fat Man Hackett
I think he was moaning at THX 1138's comments...

well if he was .... why did he quote my entire message?!

I've had a bad day at work, I don't need a bad day on the forums

tony, you clearly don't know what a bad day on the forums actually constitutes!!! :eek: check out the unwarranted abuse i received yesterday on this thread (http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26779) !!! :eek: :(

and then it kind of carries on (or not hopefully) at the very end of this thread (http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21720).

bddidier

24-10-2001, 18:26

Originally posted by Ben Martin
indeed, i'm not sure what you're disagreeing with bddidier. however, looking back i do think there might be room for misinterpretation in my earlier post. when i said "edge enhancement caters for those who couldn't care less anyway" i was referring only to those people with screens smaller than 28" who do not appreciate that a slightly softer image would be the lesser of two evils. i was not referring to those people who do appreciate the pros and cons of the situation but who can't afford a screen above 28" .... i'm one of them! :)

Originally posted by bddidier
Well just pay my rent, my car expenses and my travels and then I will be able to afford a huge screen in a huge appartment! Your remark is just plain stupid and offensive. And I've started to buy DVDs to watch on my computer as most of my friends so I'm not sure the early adopters were all so well equiped. That said I'm all for quality and edge enhancement is not the way to go. But England is the most expensive country in the world sorry.

er .... you're preaching to the converted here mate. sounds like you and i ironically couldn't be more alike in these regards. as Grover could have told you, i too watch dvds on my pc. have done for 3 and a half years and still am unable to afford to do otherwise. my screen doesn't get any bigger than a 19" monitor and isn't looking likely to for some time as i am currently unemployed. huge appartment? i wish! :eek:

anyway, i think we got some wires crossed before and we're clearly thinking alike at the end of the day. i strongly agree with your comment of "That said I'm all for quality and edge enhancement is not the way to go." just because you and i can't see the edge enhancement at a distance from our pc monitors doesn't mean we shouldn't stand up against something that spoils the image for many others.

Well I hope no hard feelings, thanks for putting things staight. And I'm lucky I guess, I've stopped watching DVD's on my computer a few month ago and I even got a WS (but not even 28'' ...). Still no big appart so :)

And yes we must defend quality even if it do not concern us ... yet. Overall I'm still please with the DVDs.

Jenz @ Bullets n Babes

24-10-2001, 18:42

All,

Thanks for commenting on my review. Its not that TPM is bad, in fact far from it, we give it a B on video where a C is average.

Its just that the Edge Enhancement is bad. You would see it on any screen above 28inches. This includes my 40inch & 46inch Toshiba's and my 120inch Projector.

Its still a stunning disc particularly the extras, but its a shame it didn't have that extra punch on the Video and so the review mark reflects that. You should also note that the R2 contains slightly less Vertical EE but slightly more compression artifacts in the blacks.

Regards Jenz.

amritsinghesq

24-10-2001, 19:58

At least you had the balls to say there was a problem Jenz, so thank you for an honest review.

I personally couldn't see the problem on my 32" TV, I think my eyes need a little more training!

I knew Episode 1 was bound to get some kind of Ultimate Edition treatment when old George releases all six films on DVD, but I'm just a Star Wars marketing sucker!:rolleyes:

cm-9

16-01-2003, 12:36

The Episode 1 disk has terrible edge enhancement - I can see it easily on a 15" screen so maybe it depends how close to the screen you are sitting.

The worst parts are the scenes on Tatooine looking at Darth Maul silhouetted against a bright sky - superfluous rings around his head are easily visible - it's not as though he's a saint or anything!

Interestingly (and the fact which proves it is not anything to do with the blue screen filming process or anything inherent in MPEG compression) the Deleted Scenes on disk 2 do not have edge enhancement, just a lovely smooth film-like image. Shows you how good it could have been ... ah, if only.

The R1 disk is even worse than the R2 disk for edge enhancement, so at least we have something to be thankful for here in R2.

Any reviewer who gives Ep 1 better than a B for video quality is, quite simply, not to be trusted.

Idle Child

16-01-2003, 12:39

i've got a 32" TV and episode 1 looks fantastic. Had i been watching this movie on a 64" plasma screen, i might, (i repeat) might notice some edge enhancement.

Mandrill

16-01-2003, 13:25

What is Edge enhancement :dork:

Idle Child

16-01-2003, 13:26

Dunno. That's probably why i didn't notice it. :dork:

cm-9

16-01-2003, 13:32

Pictures of the edge enhancement on the R1 version:
http://www.videophile.info/Review/TPM/TPM_01.htm

Mandrill

16-01-2003, 13:32

Originally posted by Idle Child
Dunno. That's probably why i didn't notice it. :dork:

:lol: :lol: Well at least I'm not alone then :D

The Allmighty

16-01-2003, 13:43

Edge enhancement is something that either irritates you a great deal or doesn't bother you at all. I have a 32 Sony Wega and know that the enhancement is there but don't really care.

That's not to say that those who find it irritating are wrong: it drives one of my mates up the wall and I understand totally why it irritates them, it's just that as far as I'm concerned, the picture is fine. Mind you, I also think the picture on Die Hard With A Vengeance is fine and everyone hates that.

Sorry, I know that wasn't the technical answer you were looking for. There have been a number of threads about edge enhancement and on one of them there was a link to a site that gave a superb explanation of the subject. I'm sure that someone who knows about edge enhancement will remember the post and be able to tell you where to find the information.

Idle Child

16-01-2003, 13:50

i agree. Edge enhancement on my otherwise superb DVD of The Phantom Menace, just isn't worth bothering about in the wider scheme of things.. such as the war on Iraq, the Northern Korea issue, and the latest spat of celebrity paedofilia..

And let's face it, TPM is a bit of a pants film anyway. I'd rather watch Attack of the Clones. ;)

neilalford

16-01-2003, 14:59

Originally posted by Idle Child

And let's face it, TPM is a bit of a pants film anyway. I'd rather watch Attack of the Clones. ;)

AOTC has the same problem though unfortunately:(

To be honest I also think I prefer TPM to AOTC, apart from the whole Anakin bit and too much Jar-Jar, the rest of it's better though:)

HighlanderTM

16-01-2003, 16:04

Is the same problem evident with the cut-scenes from Attack Of the Clones? If you look at the 'Obiwan/Mace on platform' scene and some of the speeder chase sequence, the bluescreen matting is so sharp that the characters appear to be standing against a back projection! Perhaps someone can clarify this, as it's been bugging me for a while...

cm-9

16-01-2003, 16:44

Again, on AOTC the edge enhancement problem is not there at all on the deleted scenes (and it is very much less of a problem on the main film, compared to TPM: the transfer quality of disk 1 of AOTC is good and does deserve a grade A for video).

Edge enhancement appears to be a deliberate decision made by studios when transferring some films to DVD. Just to confirm, it is nothing whatsoever to do with bluescreen matting. Edge enhancement is supposed to make a DVD transfer look "sharper". It works by exaggerating the contrast of a high contrast edge, by making the light area even lighter and the dark part even darker just beside the edge. There is usually a halo effect as well. Edge enhancement may be just in the horizontal dimension, just in the vertical dimension, or both. Whatever, it is a distortion of the original image of the film and it has no place in a quality DVD release.

HighlanderTM

17-01-2003, 11:57

So the bluescreen 'lighting' on the AOTC extended scenes is just plain sloppy. Check out the Mace/Obi-wan scene to see what i'm talking about. Dreadfull!

Did Lucas watch Spiderman, see the crappy special effects and think 'Sod it, why bust our ass rendering the bluescreen work if people are willing to accept ****. Just do a basic job on the Cut-scenes Mr Knoll."

Someone deserves to shoot a well aimed tac-nuke at the Dreamquest Imaging house. They have NEVER done decent CG effects. one of the poorest quality FX houses in the US (for cinema).:mad:

rooo

12-11-2005, 09:50

Sorry to bring this up again, but I watched this last night on my projector for the first time, as a run up to getting SW:ROTS in a couple of weeks time. I'll admit that being a recent film, and digitially filmed and created, I was expecting a great picture, but for most of the film I was actually worrying that there was something wrong with my equipment - the picture was that dire.

I am watching on a 5' screen, so I am going to notice the difference more, but when older films can product a much superior picture, why couldn't this film?

When the film had finished I had to spin Monsters Inc, to make sure everything was okay with my kit, it was, and it was SW:TPM that was bad. I'm just glad to read here that it wasn't just me!

nwgarratt

12-11-2005, 10:29

What region did you watch? I am thinking of getting the R2 when it is cheap and use that when watching on my projector.

I have watched the R1 and it didn't seem that bad on my big screen but the edge enhancement was very noitceable.

KeyserSoze

12-11-2005, 10:37

I dont think TPM was a digitally transfered to DVD but was filmed digitally in some scenes while others were shot on film. Well im not entirely sure on this, please correct me if im wrong.

AOTC was the first live action movie to be shot completely digitally. The DVD transfer is digital.

I actually think AOTC looks worse than TPM, the CG looks very sharp but the actors looked very soft. I think it to do with the quality of lenses at that time, compare it to ROTS which looks stunning.

rooo, do you have the R1 or R2 version of TPM ? I read the R1 had significantly more edge enhancement than the R2.

rooo

12-11-2005, 11:25

I have the R2 version that came in the double pack (the MVC misprice from 3 years ago!).

I'll be watching AOTC soon, but I won't expect too much from now.

Panavision

12-11-2005, 13:09

Van Ling denied that EE was applied to the film.

DeadKenny

12-11-2005, 15:28

Wow, old thread :D

Anyway, one thing people don't consider is the quality of the MPEG decoder. Some decoders will show up EE more than others, some actively reduce it and some add to it. At the very least I'd check if there's a sharpening option on the player which might be in effect.

It's similar to the blockiness some people see on particular DVDs which others can't. Could also be down to the decoder.

Have to say I've not noticed an issue with EE at all with TPM R2 on my 32" Sony WEGA played on my good old Sony DVP-S325. Then again I don't really notice EE on any DVDs.

kmurph

13-11-2005, 15:08

I dont think TPM was a digitally transfered to DVD but was filmed digitally in some scenes while others were shot on film. Well im not entirely sure on this, please correct me if im wrong.

Holy thread revival Batman!

AFAIK the only scene in TPM that was filmed digitally for test purposes was the scene where Qui-Gon takes the blood sample from Anakin outside on the roof of his house at night before sending it to Obi-Wan.

rooo

13-11-2005, 19:12

Holy thread revival Batman!

AFAIK the only scene in TPM that was filmed digitally for test purposes was the scene where Qui-Gon takes the blood sample from Anakin outside on the roof of his house at night before sending it to Obi-Wan.

I like to think I'm environmentally friendly - recycling and all that!

IIRC this scene did look okay. The major thing I noticed is on the live action/CGI mix scenes the real people were much less sharp than the CGI, to be expected I guess, but the difference was quite large.