View Full Version : Jay-Z - The Black Album & Hip Hop - Discuss
monkeyboy
05-11-2003, 17:53
Okay so I managed to get hold of Jay's final album and all I can say about it is WHOA! Best Hip-Hop album of 2003 without a doubt!!
No guest appearances and features production from some of the best producers out there - Kanye West, Just Blaze, Timbaland, DJ Quik, Rick Rubin, 9th Wonder, Neptunes & Eminem.
If this really is Jay's last ever album then at least he'll be going out on top.
Anybody else heard it yet? What are your views?
Jimmyboy
05-11-2003, 18:10
This is what I don't get with hip-hop.
The talent starts and ends with the producer so if there's any justice Jay Z would be somewhere at the back of the list of the names listed not on the front cover.
The Neptunes and Timbaland have even managed to make Justin(e) Timberlake sound half decent - it's the producer in the shadows that makes the song not the so-called artist/rapper for hire.:gag:
Jimi_Hendrix2001
05-11-2003, 19:06
great album - just like the G-G-G-G-G G-UNIT album!!! :D :clap: :clap:
xraystan
05-11-2003, 21:07
Originally posted by Jimmyboy
This is what I don't get with hip-hop.
The talent starts and ends with the producer so if there's any justice Jay Z would be somewhere at the back of the list of the names listed not on the front cover.
The Neptunes and Timbaland have even managed to make Justin(e) Timberlake sound half decent - it's the producer in the shadows that makes the song not the so-called artist/rapper for hire.:gag:
Yes, everything you've said above is correct :|
Disappearer
05-11-2003, 22:41
Originally posted by Jimmyboy
This is what I don't get with hip-hop.
The talent starts and ends with the producer so if there's any justice Jay Z would be somewhere at the back of the list of the names listed not on the front cover.
The Neptunes and Timbaland have even managed to make Justin(e) Timberlake sound half decent - it's the producer in the shadows that makes the song not the so-called artist/rapper for hire.:gag:
Well, apparently Jay-Z never writes down his ryhmes and often freestyles for the finished recording, and when you consider how incredible some of his wordplay is you'll realise he's no puppet for the producers.
Originally posted by Jimmyboy
This is what I don't get with hip-hop.
The talent starts and ends with the producer so if there's any justice Jay Z would be somewhere at the back of the list of the names listed not on the front cover.
As usual, you're talking a bag of nonsense. So the artist is useless?
The Neptunes and Timbaland have even managed to make Justin(e) Timberlake sound half decent - it's the producer in the shadows that makes the song not the so-called artist/rapper for hire.:gag:
What has Justin Timberlake got to do with hip-hip? And the fact you find some of his stuff half-decent shows what a poor ear you have.
Well grabed this the other day, was gonna post today but was too busy.
Been driving all day with this on, and i'am so so at the moment.
Not guest apperances, but for a legand in the game i would'nt expect any too be honest IMO.
He was trying to get back into the frame of mind of the classic 96 'Reasonable Doubt' but i feel (atm) falls short. I have pre-realease of this album and its clear Jay was trying to get close to the 96 talent, but sounded too simlar, so the actual album is trying but not quite getting where it should be.
I'am hooked on track 2, had me near to tears (been Jay fan since 94 on mix tape sceen) don'nt think this will be his final album IMO, not good enough to go out on, take the criticsim and make one more to put him him the legends books where he belongs.
Too early to judge, but i'd take 'Resonable Doubt' or 'Blueprint' over this atm, Rizel
P.S Forgot to comment on production, well too much of people who should have'nt have (Eminmen!) Just Blaze made the album for me (as usuall), 1 Timberland joint is enough, but 2 from the Neptunes! WTF, Should have dropped Pharrell from this album as it ruined it for me espceially after the last Jay album (Was it really Jay Album, Rocafella? Money or getting name in stone (Pac, Biggie? 2CD albums?)
Jimmyboy
06-11-2003, 00:24
Originally posted by nc
What has Justin Timberlake got to do with hip-hip?.
Oh nothing other than the fact that all his most memorable and biggest selling songs are written, arranged, produced and performed by the most successful hip-hop artists currently working in the business.
Other than that absolutely nothing.
playaslaya
06-11-2003, 09:27
What is the first single from the album? I have heard it a few times but I don't know what its called, I think it's a Neptunes track?
Edit - Just checked this weeks Westwood (Booooom! ;) ) tracklisting and I think it's "Jay Z ft Pharrell - Change Clothes"
Originally posted by Jimi_Hendrix2001
just like the G-G-G-G-G G-UNIT album!!! :D :clap: :clap: :D
danielsesay
06-11-2003, 10:14
When is this on general release?
Must get hold of this one. Should be good.
Reasonable Doubt, and the Blueprint are his best works IMO. :thumbs: Hopefully this album will live up to those as well...
DJBIGJAY
06-11-2003, 12:00
Originally posted by monkeyboy
.
If this really is Jay's last ever album then at least he'll be going out on top.
After Reasonable Doubt he said he would not make another album, so who knows.
Originally posted by Jimmyboy
Oh nothing other than the fact that all his most memorable and biggest selling songs are written, arranged, produced and performed by the most successful hip-hop artists. Give me a break:lol: Since when are The Neptunes hip-hop artists? Most of their stuff is commercial drivel. The only song that I like which they produced is Jay Z's Give it to me.
father_christmas
06-11-2003, 15:21
Where did you get this from then ?
sounds wicked, I WANT ONE !!!!!!!!!! :mad:
DJBIGJAY
06-11-2003, 17:05
Originally posted by father_christmas
Where did you get this from then ?
sounds wicked, I WANT ONE !!!!!!!!!! :mad:
*** Cough *** BT, Nuff said
xraystan
06-11-2003, 17:29
Originally posted by nc
Give me a break:lol: Since when are The Neptunes hip-hop artists? Most of their stuff is commercial drivel. The only song that I like which they produced is Jay Z's Give it to me.
Define Hip-Hop, for me. Then tell me why The Neptunes aren't ,as you say, Hip-Hop.
Jimi_Hendrix2001
06-11-2003, 17:43
this album has been brought forward a fortnight now as it has been leaked.
it is a good album - just hope it isn't his last as he says!
monkeyboy
06-11-2003, 18:14
Originally posted by Rizel
P.S Forgot to comment on production, well too much of people who should have'nt have (Eminmen!)
Don't knock the Em track. It's one of the best tracks on the album!! As for Em's production skills they've got a lot better lately and some of the tracks he's done recently are :thumbs:
Disappearer
06-11-2003, 18:26
Originally posted by nc
Give me a break:lol: Since when are The Neptunes hip-hop artists? Most of their stuff is commercial drivel.
Come on! They're one of, if not the most innovative production teams out there!
Originally posted by xraystan
Define Hip-Hop, for me. Then tell me why The Neptunes aren't ,as you say, Hip-Hop. Firstly, The Neptunes aren't artists, they're producers. I'm not denying The Neptunes produce some hip-hop tracks, but they are mostly mainstream, poppy crap. For me, the best producer in hip-hop is the RZA. Pity Jay Z couldn't get him on The Black Album.
Originally posted by nc
Firstly, The Neptunes aren't artists, they're producers. I'm not denying The Neptunes produce some hip-hop tracks, but they are mostly mainstream, poppy crap. For me, the best producer in hip-hop is the RZA. Pity Jay Z couldn't get him on The Black Album.
:| rza.....rza....
the new rza album is the best thing ive heard all year
some wonderful beats, samples and lyrics
love it, love it, love it
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Originally posted by wysiwyg
the new rza album is the best thing ive heard all year
some wonderful beats, samples and lyrics
love it, love it, love it
:clap: :clap: :clap:
im thinking more along the lines of Bobby Digital :gag:
Originally posted by monkeyboy
Don't knock the Em track. It's one of the best tracks on the album!! As for Em's production skills they've got a lot better lately and some of the tracks he's done recently are :thumbs:
I think you have taken this the wrong way, Jay has said this is his last album, and has tried to get back into the frame of mind that he was in when he made 'Reasonable Doubt' for me Eminem is not the same type of Artist that Jay Z is.
Eminem is good at what he does, but is not a serious enough Hip Hop artist that Jay Z is, he relies to much on controversy to sell albums, where as Jay Z replies on pure rapping talent, and always has done, Jay Z can have many styles of rapping (look at his early work) but Eminem only has the one.
I’m not knocking Eminem, but I feel for such an established Artist such as Jay Z he didn’t need to go with un-established producers on this album, which you can’t argue Eminem is, Rizel
Originally posted by xraystan
Define Hip-Hop, for me. Then tell me why The Neptunes aren't ,as you say, Hip-Hop.
This is a good point and hard to prove either way.
Easier to look at Hip Hop artist to do this though.
KRS-One, that is a pure Hip Hop Artist, you will only find him doing pure Hip Hop, and usually using pure Hip Hop producers on his albums.
Producers are simply that, they produce new tracks out of old ones, so are not strictly pure artists, so many feel the need to produce tracks for artists outside the Hip Hop scean, The Neptunes are a prime example, manly for money, but also to some what legitamise there talents to a point.
But you also have the likes of DJ Premier (1 half of Gangstar) for me he is a pure Hip Hop Producer, you rarly if ever seem him working with non Hip Hop artists, other than extremely hard to find remixes of songs he likes, but these are rarely disturbed.
Also Dr Dre is another, he will work with artists within the Hip Hop& R&B community, but you won’t seem he working with Britney Spears like Pharrel seems to like doing, Unless were talking mega bucks!
Not saying its wrong or right to do so, but for me The Neptunes are not Hip Hop producers, they simply produce the singles for Hip Hop artists to sell out side of the Hip Hop community (I.e pop charts) Rizel
danielsesay
09-11-2003, 20:50
Originally posted by Rizel
Not saying its wrong or right to do so, but for me The Neptunes are not Hip Hop producers, they simply produce the singles for Hip Hop artists to sell out side of the Hip Hop community (I.e pop charts) Rizel Not necessarily. As an exception to the rule, look at Clipse, they ain't exactly "chart friendly" artists are they?!
Originally posted by danielsesay
Not necessarily. As an exception to the rule, look at Clipse, they ain't exactly "chart friendly" artists are they?!
yeah...but they're crap anyway...commercial pap even though its not chart friendly.
Give some KRS 1 anyday
playaslaya
10-11-2003, 10:50
Originally posted by nc
Firstly, The Neptunes aren't artists, they're producers.
Umm N.E.R.D?
danielsesay
10-11-2003, 14:13
Originally posted by rst
yeah...but they're crap anyway... I wouldn't go that far. I actually quite like the Neptunes TBH. They're far better than Murder Inc.
And at least they don't bring out the same tired format that R Kelly's spilling out right now. If I hear another tune with him going on about going to the club, hotel lobbies and poppin cris I'm gonna scream. :blah:
Originally posted by danielsesay
I wouldn't go that far. I actually quite like the Neptunes TBH. They're far better than Murder Inc.
And at least they don't bring out the same tired format that R Kelly's spilling out right now. If I hear another tune with him going on about going to the club, hotel lobbies and poppin cris I'm gonna scream. :blah:
my comment was in reference to clipse
monkeyboy
10-11-2003, 16:22
Best change this thread title cause people seem to be straying from the original topic.:D
xraystan
10-11-2003, 17:21
Perhaps the term Hip-Hop is used in a different context on here. Hip-Hop, to me is not just rap music. It's bigger than that. Hip-Hop is about graffiti, breaking, the dj's, the rappers, the clothes. To quote the blast master KRS-1 "If you want to know what hip-hop is about watch a movie called Style Wars."
As for rappers and producers being commercial pop. How many times have people like Jay-Z, Dr. Dre and Eminem been in the UK top 20?
Think back to the 80's pioneers. Who can name the last Public Enemy, Run DMC ( not with jason nevins) KRS1 (including BDP) single that was played on Radio1 /Top of the pops?
Probably no one without the help of google.
Who cares anyway? If a killer track has been released, it's still a cool track even at number one in the pop charts.
Personally I'd like to see more of an edge come back into rap music. All this I've got loads of money/guns/ho's and I've killed a thousand n-words because I'm a big bad gangsta is lame.
People like KRS-1 and P.E. actually tried to be positive in their lyrics. They actually had a message to put across. If you didn't like this then you picked up your Dougie fresh/Fresh Prince, yeah that's right Will Smith. He early stuff was ok./Fabulous Freddy or Whodini tape and listened to some party music instead.
Radiohead
10-11-2003, 17:45
xraystan
If you're looking for more than the willy-waving that characterises much of the hip-hop canon these days, can I suggest:
Aesop Rock, Blackalicious, Cannibal Ox, Lyrics Born, Non-Prophets.....
All are doing marvellous things but are largely ignored in the race to show who's video can have the most bling.
xraystan
10-11-2003, 20:16
Cheers Raidiohead. I think I've got a couple of Blackalicious tracks somewhere.
But I'll definatley check the others out. :thumbs:
Originally posted by Radiohead
xraystan
If you're looking for more than the willy-waving that characterises much of the hip-hop canon these days, can I suggest:
Aesop Rock, Blackalicious, Cannibal Ox, Lyrics Born, Non-Prophets.....
All are doing marvellous things but are largely ignored in the race to show who's video can have the most bling.
Exactly...xraystan mentions its ok for a kiler track to get intoi the charts. BUT by on large most is unrecognised by the industry. Id say 80% of my collection has never seen the light of day in a commercial sense, despite it being superior to the likes of Em, CLipse, fabolous and all that pap.
danielsesay
11-11-2003, 12:56
Originally posted by Radiohead
BlackaliciousFeel that way - top tune. :notworthy
I've been meaning to get some of their stuff. I might have do some digging tonight.
I will check out those other artists you mention as well. My knowledge of underground hip-hop is a bit crap at the moment. Been neglecting it of late.
monkeyboy
11-11-2003, 21:55
Does anybody on here have any UK Hip-Hop which they recommend?
I've listened to and liked Taskforce, Mark B & Blade, Jehst and Pitman (A cross between Alan Partridge & The Streets!) is there anything else worth checking out?
danielsesay - Give Dead Prez's albums and Little Brother's - The Listening a try. Very good albums IMO.
Originally posted by monkeyboy
danielsesay - Give Dead Prez's albums and Little Brother's - The Listening a try. Very good albums IMO.
Dead Prez's Let's Get Free is a classic hip hop album, the track Hip Hop is :notworthy
Anybody got their new album: Get Free Or Die Tryin' ?
I've been a big fan of Hip Hop since something like 92', and I've gotta say that this year for me has been one of the worst years for the music.
I would find it difficult to list the decent albums of this year on one hand. Cant comment on the 'Black Album' cos I aint heard it yet but it was supposed to be Jay's return to a 'Reasonable Doubt Type of feel to it????
I did get some new G-unit tracks even that sounds played out now, how many times can you say how hard are you or how many times you been shot.
I did get Rza - BOAP which is a good album in my books minus a couple of songs.
I've been listening to albums from 92-94 recently the 'golden' era of hip hop in my opinion:thumbs: :thumbs:
david2002
18-11-2003, 05:07
I give the new Jay-Z album a big:thumbs:
If this is his last album then he is going out on top...if only Public Enemy had done the same:brickwall
monkeyboy
18-11-2003, 10:52
I just wish Premo had made the final cut! :(
earl_roberts2002
23-11-2003, 12:34
Bit late but I just finished listening to this.
The Timbaland track is HOT!!!!!
The album is pretty uneven. The first half is great but then it definately slows down in the second half. After track 10 {Interlude P.S.A** the album kinda falls off. Some of those tracks coulda been cut to make the album leaner cause it kinda limps out to the finish. Overall it's impressive and much better than The Blueprint 2 but it's a little disapointting as being Jay's last LP {it's obvious it's not thought right?**
Radiohead
23-11-2003, 16:56
He's yet to make a decent album IMO.
Alongside the likes of El-P, Aesop Rock and Cannibal Ox he looks (and sounds) like an amateur. Fine if you like your hip-hop with added bling but not my cup of tea.
Disappearer
23-11-2003, 19:24
Originally posted by Radiohead
He's yet to make a decent album IMO.
Alongside the likes of El-P, Aesop Rock and Cannibal Ox he looks (and sounds) like an amateur. Fine if you like your hip-hop with added bling but not my cup of tea.
An amateur?!? Some of his rhyming is incredible and couple that with the fact that he works with some of the best producers in the business makes him a class act all the way. The Def Jux lot may be rawer but lyrically they can't touch Jay-Z.
earl_roberts2002
23-11-2003, 20:32
He's yet to make a decent album IMO.
Have you heard Vol 3... Life And Times Of S. Carter? It's my favourite Jay album so far. Maybe it'll make you change your mind.
Radiohead
23-11-2003, 21:03
I've heard all his albums and they all thoroughly disappointed me.
Listen to Aesop Rock's "Labor Days" and then come back and tell me that lyrically that doesn't match anything Jay-Z has done.
Not quite sure what "working with some of the best producers" has to do with Jay-Z's ability - other than to show his limitations in that area.
The fact that he's more interested in clothing/drinks empires that making music tells you all you need to know.
Disappearer
24-11-2003, 18:39
Originally posted by Radiohead
Listen to Aesop Rock's "Labor Days" and then come back and tell me that lyrically that doesn't match anything Jay-Z has done.
'Labor Days' is a great album, and he's a superb lyricist but Jay-Z's just a few rungs higher in my opinion. I'm not talking about subject matter here, I'm talking about his ability to manipulate words and phrases.
Not quite sure what "working with some of the best producers" has to do with Jay-Z's ability - other than to show his limitations in that area.
Well, he was working with the Neptunes back before they were a "brand" so he's obviously got an ear for where the talent is at. If you add great rhyming skills to fantastic music you've got something worth a lot more than great rhyming skills with average music.
The fact that he's more interested in clothing/drinks empires that making music tells you all you need to know.
Er.... and you know this because....? If he feel's he achieved all he can in hip hop and is moving on to something else, surely that deserves more respect than if he continuined to churn out albums year after year purely for the money?
Are you just jealous of him cos he's nobbing Beyonce? :D
monkeyboy
25-11-2003, 18:18
Originally posted by earl_roberts2002
Have you heard Vol 3... Life And Times Of S. Carter
That's not really the best album to use as an example for some of Jay's best work.
A mate recently bought me his MTV unplugged album, I quite like it. I always just wrote him off as a MTV sell out so never bothered checking him out. Will have to delve deeper...
earl_roberts2002
25-11-2003, 21:55
That's not really the best album to use as an example for some of Jay's best work.
I was just saying it was my favourite of his. What do you think is his best work?
monkeyboy
26-11-2003, 18:18
Reasonable Doubt is an album where I can sit and listen to every track, hard to find albums like this now. It's my favourite album of his and IMO his best work.
Forgot to ask - Did anybody else hear Jay give a shout to David Beckham on the new Missy album!?! Crazy!!
snowball
26-11-2003, 20:58
Ive been listening to the Black album in the car for the past two days non stop. Have to say its not the norm type of hip hop I would normally listen to but its still a decent enough album - maybe it will grow on me even more afetr Ive heard it a few times. Change Clothes I find very catchy and cant resist playing over and over again
:thumbs:
Incidentally Im looking for some decent RZA albums to listen to. Didnt he do the soundtrack to Kill Bill? Is it any good?
danielsesay
26-11-2003, 22:22
Is it me or is the album a bit short?
Managed to get hold of a copy and found it a little short.
But still a great album :thumbsL, but still not as great as The Blueprint IMO.
8/10
I wont be buying the black album! i think he has gone downhill with each album after reasonable doubt.(although vol.3 was good) He seems to be including more and more of that girlie type crap like girls girls gilrs and that stupid voice he uses in some of his songs really bugs me, is it on the new one? Im sure someone will know what im talking about!
And that lets get free album from dead prez: good beats, but how much political the blacks are still being opressed crap can you take? Ok it may be happening but do i want 70 minutes of it? I liked it but have only listened to it once or twice.
playaslaya
27-11-2003, 10:41
Originally posted by snowball
Incidentally Im looking for some decent RZA albums to listen to. Didnt he do the soundtrack to Kill Bill? Is it any good?
The Kill Bill Soundtrack is superb, it features a lot of songs from different artists but the RZA stuff is really instrumental but very good. It has a lot of Asian and Latin style music. It's definitely one of the best soundtracks of the year.
If you are after more RZA instrumentals but with more of a 'Wu' sound, go for the 'Ghost Dog' soundtrack its very cool (the film is great too)
Apart from that I'm not too sure about other solo RZA stuff - I didn't like the 'Bobby Digital' album that much but from what I've heard of it 'Birth Of A Prince' is worth a listen - and of course you can't go wrong with any of the proper Wu Tang Clan albums - the classic 'Enter the 36 Chambers' being the best. :)
Originally posted by Radiohead
I've heard all his albums and they all thoroughly disappointed me.
Listen to Aesop Rock's "Labor Days" and then come back and tell me that lyrically that doesn't match anything Jay-Z has done.
Not quite sure what "working with some of the best producers" has to do with Jay-Z's ability - other than to show his limitations in that area.
The fact that he's more interested in clothing/drinks empires that making music tells you all you need to know.
I agree totally.....
Can i recommend some Atmosphere for those that class Jay Z as a class act?
Or perhaps....indeed further support Radiohead suggestions...
Thought the Blueprint was better myself.
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