View Full Version : what happens to us brits when High Def DVDs come out?
thescrounger
13-02-2005, 19:45
HD-DVD has four movie studios backing it, all releasing titles this year. Where's Bluray?
nwgarratt
13-02-2005, 20:16
It looks like Blue Ray/HD DVD may have a potential successor already.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11322
thescrounger
13-02-2005, 21:10
It looks like Blue Ray/HD DVD may have a potential successor already.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11322
HVD isn't likely to be launched commercially until 2007. By which time it will be too late.
I can see it being used professionally by corporations and TV broadcasters though.
nwgarratt
13-02-2005, 21:34
HVD isn't likely to be launched commercially until 2007. By which time it will be too late.
I can see it being used professionally by corporations and TV broadcasters though.
What do you mean too late? The press releases make it sound like it will arrive after BlueRay/HDVD and so will become the next big thing. I didn't expect it to come out at the same time and compete.
kiran_mk2
13-02-2005, 22:29
If HVD lives upto the claims made it'll blow BluRay and HDDVD clean away: a 200gig recordable disc should be able to hold a lot of HD per disc. Especially if the 1gig/s transfer rate is true.
thescrounger
14-02-2005, 00:10
If HVD lives upto the claims made it'll blow BluRay and HDDVD clean away: a 200gig recordable disc should be able to hold a lot of HD per disc. Especially if the 1gig/s transfer rate is true.
Way to much than is needed to release just a film and a few extras. Studios wont see the benefit when HD-DVD and Bluray can do the same with less storage.
It might work as just a plain storage medium though.
DeadKenny
14-02-2005, 00:12
and as a distribution medium for cinema release films as these require way in excess of TV HD resolutions (we're talking 4000 lines+).
thescrounger
14-02-2005, 00:19
What do you mean too late? The press releases make it sound like it will arrive after BlueRay/HDVD and so will become the next big thing. I didn't expect it to come out at the same time and compete.
In order to be the "next big thing" you need to arrive at least 5-7 years later. HVD will only just be arriving when people have started buying HD-DVD and Bluray stuff. Along with a huge catalogue of films available.
How are you going to commercially put 20 films on a disc? It just wont happen, all 20 Bond films on one disc, costing £200. Hmm, but I only want one of the films. Wont happen.
nwgarratt
14-02-2005, 12:02
I
How are you going to commercially put 20 films on a disc? It just wont happen, all 20 Bond films on one disc, costing £200. Hmm, but I only want one of the films. Wont happen.
I agree that won't happen. The quality would only be a bit more than standard DVD quality at best. It is for HD material. With a 100GB read only disc you are looking at 8-9 hours at HD quality.
the extra space being utilised by hi-res, uncompressed PCM audio and the higher video bitrates particularly caught my eye.
I've been saying the same thing all along! :shrug:
HD-DVD looks much better placed - at least for now - but Blu-ray has the technical edge but when you argue the who-looks-best-placed point you get attacked for pimping HD-DVD
Maybe because Blu-ray is better placed and saying otherwise is rather strange. What do you mean by "better placed" ?
HD-DVD has four movie studios backing it, all releasing titles this year. Where's Bluray?
What do you mean "where's Blu-ray"?
As you've been reading this thread, you know full well that Blu-ray has stronger studio support and they'll be releasing titles this year too. Since you know that it seems strange that you're making a point of mentioning HD-DVD's position in a way that suggests it's stronger than Blu-ray. :suspect:
As I've said before, formats like HVD won't stand a chance unless adopted by one forum or the other. You can't compete with only one or two minor CE manufacturers against the big guns.
Bluray needs to get it's act together, and so far it hasn't whilst HD-DVD has.
How has HD-DVD got it's act together? What makes you think Blu-ray hasn't.
I'm backing the format that I think will win.
Why not back the format that does win or the one you think is best? It seems a little strange to back the one you think will win. If your only concern is which will win then it's best to wait until one actually does.
thescrounger
14-02-2005, 17:07
As you've been reading this thread, you know full well that Blu-ray has stronger studio support and they'll be releasing titles this year too.
Blu-Ray has 3 studios behind it. HD-DVD has 4 studios. HD-DVD has products and films launching around the world this year. Blu-Ray have yet to annouce a release date. Those are the facts just now.
Since you know that it seems strange that you're making a point of mentioning HD-DVD's position in a way that suggests it's stronger than Blu-ray.
I believe that right now it is.
I also believe that HD-DVD will be better marketed.
It's widely expected that fox will join Blu-ray. All 4 studios for HD-DVD are non-exclusive but Columbia and MGM are exclusive to Blu-ray. You know this but you still act like Blu-ray is in a weaker rather than stronger position.
Blu-ray has said all along that it'll launch at the end of 2005 so it's not like people are wondering if it'll take years to arrive!
DeadKenny
15-02-2005, 14:16
but Columbia and MGM are exclusive to Blu-ray.
No surprise there considering they're both part of Sony ;)
Interesting to note that the DVD Forum (not these forums ;)) which is the group behind the good old DVD and comprises some 200+ manufacturers and studios, backs HD-DVD. Blu-Ray was never even submitted for consideration.
The problem Blu-Ray has got is the bias towards Sony. There are some studios and manufacturers that will never accept that, especially the budget manufacturers if they have to pay some huge licence fee to Sony every time they want to slap a Blu-Ray logo on their players. DVD on the other hand became independent of studios.
Ben Martin
15-02-2005, 14:26
camaj, could you edit last four quotes in your post from 17:54 yesterday so that they show who said them, please?
with only the first one quoted, and quoted to me, at the moment it reads like all five are mine when in fact only the first two are. so i can't tell for sure which questions are directed at me and which at other people - and who those other people are.
plus, it (accidentally, i'm sure) misrepresents me in the process.
thanks.
Interesting to note that the DVD Forum (not these forums ;)) which is the group behind the good old DVD and comprises some 200+ manufacturers and studios, backs HD-DVD. Blu-Ray was never even submitted for consideration.
And why would it? It's entirely seperate from DVD so they wouldn't want it to be considered.
Also the DVD forum don't back HD-DVD. The HD-DVD forum does. All the Blu-ray companies are part of the DVD forum and they certainly aren't backing HD-DVD :lol:
if they have to pay some huge licence fee to Sony every time they want to slap a Blu-Ray logo on their players
They have to pay a license fee to the DVD forum now and the license fee won't be much different to the DVD license fee. So it's not like they'll notice a difference. Anyway the cost is passed on to the end user so it doesn't even matter to them.
Also they won't be paying Sony, it's not the Sony forum. The license money will be split (as it is in the DVD forum) between the companies in the forum
DeadKenny
16-02-2005, 10:03
Also the DVD forum don't back HD-DVD. The HD-DVD forum does.
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20031126S0005
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/15/fvd_vs_dvd/
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/hd_disk_approval_11_15_02.htm
http://www.dvd-recordable.org/Article1250-mode=thread-order0-threshold0.phtml
(to quote just a few)
One of the DVD Forum's working groups, WG-11, is responsible for Blue Laser developments and it is this group that announced backing for HD-DVD.
I'm not even aware of an "HD-DVD Forum" organisation.
thescrounger
16-02-2005, 10:50
Blu-ray is a lot more power hungry than red laser machines too, another reason to be weary. Unless you want larger electricity bills.
DeadKenny
16-02-2005, 11:25
and a problem for laptops, especially if they have to use a caddy.
Lads, getting a bit picky aren't we!? I don't think the power consumption is going to be a selling point for anyone, it never is especially when the difference is negligable.
DeadKenny, you know that there won't be a caddy, so why mention it? Blu-ray drives for Laptops have already been unveiled so no need to worry about that. I'm not sure how any Laptop is going to play HD films though unless they have some sort of PCMIA upgrade since Software players won't be feasable for a few years.
DeadKenny
17-02-2005, 09:49
DeadKenny, you know that there won't be a caddy, so why mention it?
I didn't know that.
I'm not sure how any Laptop is going to play HD films though unless they have some sort of PCMIA upgrade since Software players won't be feasable for a few years.
Software HD is already here in the form of Windows Media Player. You do need a load of power and a 3Ghz processor though... at least to play 1080p. 720p will play okay on 2Ghz machines though, I know as it works on mine :D. If the format is MPEG-2 it will require much less processing power.
There are plenty of laptops nearing the 3Ghz mark now, though obviously with mobile throttling they may struggle or more likely just consume batteries :D. On A/C power they should be okay though (and on aircraft you can plug it into the aircraft A/C if you can get the adapters). HD on laptops could be quite a winner as it's probably one of the more common ways in which movies are played on a PC and the high resolution of a laptop LCD really does show up how poor DVD is. Then again, when you're on a plane you probably don't care about the quality too much, just so long as it's a better movie than the edited to death trash they show on the plane ;)
thescrounger
17-02-2005, 10:07
Lads, getting a bit picky aren't we!? I don't think the power consumption is going to be a selling point for anyone, it never is especially when the difference is negligable.
Negligable? Who said it would be negligable?
zantarous
17-02-2005, 10:30
Negligable? Who said it would be negligable?
Who said it would be anything more the negligable?
thescrounger
17-02-2005, 15:16
I did.
If you had a Blu-ray walkman, you'd need a car battery to power it.
zantarous
17-02-2005, 15:27
What are you basing that on? Have you been privy to R&D from the Blu-ray camp that you can say that with such authority? And why would you want a blur -ray walkman when mp3 players are the way forward for music on the move?
thescrounger
17-02-2005, 15:29
Just what I've been reading about the format from various places.I was just making a disc based comparison.
I did.
That's true, and I said that it was negligable. There's no reason to suspect that the power consumption in Blu-ray is going to be significantly more than HD-DVD and in turn DVD. At the end of the day they're just spinning bits of plastic
Also there was an announcement that you'd be able to get HDTV on your mobile in 2007 or there abouts
I'm not sure how any Laptop is going to play HD films though unless they have some sort of PCMIA upgrade since Software players won't be feasable for a few years.
For certain if mobile phones will be able to play Blu-ray / HD-DVD content, then laptops certainly well will!
For certain if mobile phones will be able to play Blu-ray / HD-DVD content, then laptops certainly well will!
I don't think any mobiles will be playing HD-DVD or Blu-ray content for a while!!! If you're refering to the HD broadcasting on phones, that's going to be a different format. For one, it might be able to be played on the phone with little decoding neccessary. It's the decoding that's CPU hungry. Also the resolution could be lower which will help
I've read estimates that it'll take a 8-10 Ghz CPU to decode Blu-ray et al. I think that's a bit high but I don't think current chips are up to it. Of course hardware decoders will be able to manage it.
It's the decoding that's CPU hungry. Also the resolution could be lower which will help
How is that going to be High Definition then?
How is that going to be High Definition then?
Given the screensize it should be able to give a similar image with a lower resolution. Or not, I'm just guessing.
DeadKenny
20-02-2005, 11:30
I've read estimates that it'll take a 8-10 Ghz CPU to decode Blu-ray et al. I think that's a bit high but I don't think current chips are up to it. Of course hardware decoders will be able to manage it.
Blu-ray et all are just storage medium. Doesn't take a powerful CPU to decode them, they're just pulling files off a disc.
What takes power is decoding the format they stick on the disc, e.g. MPEG-2, WM9-HD, etc, (none of which are medium dependent). WM9-HD is the most CPU hungry format and it's already been established by Microsoft what CPU you need for it. WM9-HD 720p will play on your average 2Ghz system okay, and 1080p needs a 3Ghz processor (according to the minimum specs by MS). 1080i I guess will be slightly lower.
More on WM9-HD with downloadable clips here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/content_provider/film/ContentShowcase.aspx
MPEG-2 by comparison is far less CPU intensive even when using an HD resolution. The encoding format is less complicated because there's far less compression, and thus there's far less work to decompress. Personally I'd prefer MPEG-2 to be used for HD because it's better quality and less CPU intensive. It would also mean Blu-Ray would be a better choice because of the higher capacity.
Where you'll see hardware decoders mostly though is in the form of embedded components for consumer players. At present MPEG has the biggest advantage as the decoding hardware has been integrated into the CPU itself (embedded PowerPC chips for example), and some may already be HD capable. Embedding the codec used in WM9-HD might be a lot more complicated.
Given the screensize it should be able to give a similar image with a lower resolution. Or not, I'm just guessing.
If the resolution is less than 700 lines (a rough estimate of the boundary between SD and HD), it's not HD. Doesn't matter whether the screen size is 2" or 50 feet.
Even at HD resolutions though I still don't see the point on a 1 or 2" screen, but anyway.
Ben Martin
20-02-2005, 14:44
Also they won't be paying Sony, it's not the Sony forum. The license money will be split (as it is in the DVD forum) between the companies in the forumbut not split equally. and it is disingenous to imply otherwise. especially as this is the reason Sony went their own way with HD. and, i should add, trying their best to sabotage the development of HD-DVD in the process by retaining their seat on the DVD forum until they were rightly booted off.
Also the DVD forum don't back HD-DVD. The HD-DVD forum does.DeadKenny has already pointed out what nonsense this is, but why haven't you responded to this yet? your posts since conveniently ignore it. and you still haven't edited your post which misquotes me a few pages back. what gives?
Blu-ray et all are just storage medium.
Yes and no. When we talk about playing BD we're talking about the video on the disc. No one says they're going to watch a DVD and means they're going to watch the disc, they mean they're going to watch the video on the disc.
There are 3 codecs expected to be used in the two formats, VC-1, a MPEG 4 variant and MPEG 2. I'm sure the first two are going to be the most processor hungry but we don't really know how much. The clips on the MS site are low bitrate clips and aren't fully 1080p resolution according to the people who've looked at them. They also, I'm sure, don't have DTS-HD soundtracks.
While 3ghz is the minimum I'm sure they need more than that to get the best out of them and that higher bitrate with full resolution and HD audio will take that even higher. I don't know what that will be but the opinions seem to be that it'll be a chip that won't be out for a good few years.
As a result I'd expect hardware decoders to be the norm in PC's at the start, just like with DVD. Even if someone had a CPU that was good enough, they mightn't want all the processing to go towards Blu-ray playback.
but not split equally. and it is disingenous to imply otherwise.
There was no such implication. It's hardly be fair to split things equally if one company does all the work and another makes a relativley small contribution.
trying their best to sabotage the development of HD-DVD in the process by retaining their seat on the DVD forum until they were rightly booted off.
:lol: Where did you get that from? Sounds like some fanboy nonsense! For a start, I don't think Sony could sabatage HD-DVD from within the DVD forum, I imagine that it doesn't hold enough power within the forum to have the required effect.
Also the forum represents the companies that helped create DVD so they couldn't kick Sony off, nor would they wish to I imagine, since Sony are still in the DVD business and have a vested interest in the success of DVD. This isn't some childish playground gang, it's a group of multinational businesses. They don't go around kicking each other off just because they don't like each other.
If you wanted to check you could have seen for yourself (http://www.dvdforum.org/about-memberlist.htm). As you can see, most (if not all) of the BDA are still DVD forum members and I can't see them leaving unless they want to suffer loss of income and power.
I mistakenly believed that a seperate forum had been established for HD-DVD. I haven't edited anything because I haven't misquoted anyone. I didn't indicate the author for each quote because I really can't be bothered and if you really care who wrote what you're able to find out quite easily. Personally I care what someone said, not who said it.
They also, I'm sure, don't have DTS-HD soundtracks.
Yeah, DTS-HD will add tons of processing overhead!
While 3ghz is the minimum I'm sure they need more than that to get the best out of them and that higher bitrate with full resolution and HD audio will take that even higher. I don't know what that will be but the opinions seem to be that it'll be a chip that won't be out for a good few years.
Try looking here (http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=304049&cks=PRL) or here (http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=305245&cks=PRL)
I've played the 1080p WMV res's on my 3000+ athlon64 with only minor stuttering, which I suspect is down to my slow hard disk.
You're a laugh sometimes :)
DeadKenny
21-02-2005, 21:27
If they use MPEG-2 with a higher bitrate than MPEG-4 or WM-9/10-HD with a lower bitrate, it will still take less CPU power.
This is because a) the bitrates can't be compared as they are two different compression systems, and b) MPEG4/WM are far more complex to decode because they are far more highly compressed.
MPEG-2 is the ideal format because it has far less compression and doesn't take so much CPU power to decode. However it does take a lot more space.
As I say, this would mean Blu-Ray is the better choice for the storage medium given the space requirements. I know that seems like it goes against my backing of HD-DVD :D... but I still stand by my gamble that HD-DVD will win, even if it's the worse format ;).
Chances are though that an HD movie in MPEG-2 will still fit on an HD-DVD disc, so the issue is less relevant (and the reality is the industry will not pick MPEG-2 anyway, they'll go for MPEG-4 or WM9 because they can cram more extras on a disc that way, plus WM9 as DRM protection).
P.S. Microsoft's spec for 1080p includes 5.1. That's easy as the decoding is usually in hardware as all it has to do is shove digital audio out to an external decoder, and it makes little difference to the PC whether it's DD or DTS.
DTS-HD will be pretty much the same as the PC just needs to chuck the digital audio stream out to a suitable amp that can decode DTS-HD.
As far as I can tell they are true 1080p clips. They are certainly the right resolution (1920x1080). They might be a lower bitrate but they look extremely impressive (they do play on my system, though the 1080p's stutter on the audio as my system is under spec'd but the video plays fine). In fact 720p even plays fine on my laptop (on battery too!), which is actually odd because DivX non-HD struggles on my laptop :?:
As I say, this would mean Blu-Ray is the better choice for the storage medium given the space requirements. I know that seems like it goes against my backing of HD-DVD :D... but I still stand by my gamble that HD-DVD will win, even if it's the worse format ;).
So you want Blu-ray to win but you don't think it will?
I don't know what to say with regards to the CPU issue, I'm no expert. People seem to agree that current CPU's are nowhere near powerful enough. I'd imagine that resolution, bitrate and codec have a large part to play and I'm lead to believe that the MS clips are low bitrate/resolution clips.
The codec being proposed is based on WM9 but it isn't WM9. I don't think it'll be used because of any DRM, I don't think that any codec will have that protection, only the hardwares native protection
Also they mightn't allow software decoders on the grounds of security.
DeadKenny
23-02-2005, 06:53
So you want Blu-ray to win but you don't think it will?
In a way, yes :). I'm saying that I want MPEG-2 HD which should be better than the more lossy highly compressed (and CPU intensive) formats such as MPEG-4 and WM9, and to support MPEG-2 HD we'll need a storage format that has decent capacity and that at present means Blu-Ray (the one and only difference between the two storage formats).
However, as I say, if I was to place a bet on it I'd bet that HD-DVD would win as I'd be more likely to win money on the bet :D
P.S. I've tried a whole load of 720p WM9-HD clips on my laptop and they all play perfectly :thumbs:. The laptop is an AMD Mobile Sempron 2800+.
And they're not low resolution clips. Resolution is X by Y pixels and they are exactly the resolution for 720p and 1080p.
Coming back to the CPU usage thing, those WM9-HD clips are around 10Mbps for some of the 720p clips. This may seem low, but remember these are highly compressed lossy formats. MPEG-2 DVD maxes out at 10Mbps but that's no where near as compressed. WM9-SD equivalent video of an MPEG-2 DVD of the same quality would be a fraction of the bitrate. Compare also MP3s at 256kbps which can be as good as PCM at many times higher bitrate.
So the point is that WM9-HD can be great with a lower bitrate. However MPEG-2 can be as good or better with a higher bitrate and yet because MPEG-2 is less demanding on decompression it takes less CPU power. Embedded hardware for MPEG-2 is far more mature too so there's a lot of background in making very efficient decoders.
Ben Martin
23-02-2005, 11:47
It's hardly be fair to split things equally if one company does all the work and another makes a relatively small contribution.no argument there, as that was the situation sony were in with DVD. necessarily involved, but relatively late to the table and not one of the largest players (despite being on the steering committee of the dvd-forum) and so getting a smaller piece of the pie. they've done very well out of DVD but want even more this time round. makes perfect business sense.
Where did you get that from?from thedigitalbits at some point in the last 12 months or so. until this thread started up, that was the only place (along with news articles they linked to) that i got any info from on the looming HD format war from. if they were wrong, or it was a prediction and i missed a later bit of news then thanks for pointing it out. that's what i'm on this thread for - learning more about all the related issues on this topic. but more of that after this quote...
Sounds like some fanboy nonsense!mate, that is clearly not the case. could i any more obviously be sat on the fence in this debate? apart from the nature of my posts (lacking the technical knowledge of DeadKenny's posts, but sharing the same position of wanting the best solution to win but acknowledging the factors that might cause HD-DVD to win despite it being "inferior") i have explicitly stated at least once that i am in neither camp. moreover, this latest round of discussion was kicked off by my post about a week ago where i asked DeadKenny what he thought of all those points in Blu-ray's favour that had so impressed me! how can you call me a fanboy after that?! :oh-hum:
I don't think Sony could sabatage HD-DVD from within the DVD forum, I imagine that it doesn't hold enough power within the forum to have the required effect.i would have thought so too, and that may well be the case. however, according to thedigitalbits, sony and other members of the Blu-ray group who were also on the steering committee of the dvd-forum were voting against key stages in the development of the HD-DVD standard. so perhaps it was that they were no longer permitted to vote on issues pertaining to the development of HD-DVD? that would make more sense, as you're certainly right that the dvd-forum would want sony present from a standard DVD perspective. and obviously they weren't "kicked off" as the dvd-forum website shows. i must have confused the two, but i'll see if i can dig the digitalbits stuff out anyway.
I haven't edited anything because I haven't misquoted anyone.not deliberately perhaps, but the effect is the same. the fact that you follow one single argument through in that thread makes it sound like you talking to one person the whole way through. as mine is the only name on a quote it reads as though i made all those statements.
if you really care who wrote what you're able to find out quite easily.of course. and i obviously know they aren't my quotes, but other people don't necessarily know. especially if they only pick up the thread at that point.
Personally I care what someone said, not who said it.but the two are linked. particularly when you're casually labelling me a fanboy when all the evidence on this thread proves that couldn't be further from the truth.
it shouldn't be necessary, but i'll try to clear things up a bit. i'm not here with any of the answers, nor the technical background, nor a vested interest (practical or emotional) in either format. i'm here solely to find out more about each format from people like yourself and DeadKenny who seem to know a lot more about it. but sometimes you have to give your own opinion at a given point in time to further the discussion. and that's what it is: a "discussion", not an "argument". no offence, but it seems like before you can reply to anyone on this topic you first have to be able to envisage them with either the HD-DVD or Blu-ray logos tatooed on their foreheads. why can't we be "undecided" or "leaning towards Blu-ray, but prepared to keep an open mind about HD-DVD"?
being honest, Blu-ray sounds a lot better to me for several of the reasons previously discussed. but disregarding HD-DVD completely seems childish and not in the best interests of understanding how and why Blu-ray may well be superior. plus, we have to acknowledge that HD-DVD has several factors going for it that although not technical advantages could be advantageous when it comes to winning over average consumers rather than you, me and DeadKenny.
so we're not really disagreeing all that much. you know more about this stuff than me and that's why i'm here. so let's drop the squabbling. it would be nice if you made those edits but i won't mention it again. back to the technical discussion...
it seems like before you can reply to anyone on this topic you first have to be able to envisage them with either the HD-DVD or Blu-ray logos tatooed on their foreheads. why can't we be "undecided" or "leaning towards Blu-ray, but prepared to keep an open mind about HD-DVD"?
I don't think it's like that at all. But I think most people have made up their minds, it's pretty clear cut.
I wasn't calling you a fanboy BTW just that your statement sounded fanboyish. For all I know you got it from someone who was a fanboy. Like you say you might have confused things too. I wasn't trying to have a go.
I not sure how anyone is disregarding HD-DVD except for it not being an option for the next Gen. I really can't see it having anything going for it right now which makes it odd that people want it to succed or think it stands a chance.
DK, MPEG2 won't offer better picture quality if that's what you're anticipating. Whatever quality it'll offer, the other codecs will give the same quality but with lower bitrates. The lower the bitrate the better (as long as the quality is the same).
DeadKenny
24-02-2005, 09:43
DK, MPEG2 won't offer better picture quality if that's what you're anticipating. Whatever quality it'll offer, the other codecs will give the same quality but with lower bitrates. The lower the bitrate the better (as long as the quality is the same).
Arguable given the lossy nature of the formats. There are many people who would argue that MP3s, no matter what bitrate are no where near as good as non-lossy formats or less compressed formats ;). WM9 and MPEG4 are the MP3s of the video world (though admittidly WM9 is a much better format).
The risk is that WM9 will be used by the studios at a bitrate low enough for artefacts to appear, because they will be tempted to cram on more extras. MPEG-2 taking a lot more space will put them off cramming on too many extras as lowering the bitrate of MPEG-2 will cause it to suffer.
There are many people who would argue that MP3s, no matter what bitrate are no where near as good as non-lossy formats or less compressed formats ;)
Which is true AFAIK. However I don't think you can compare the video codecs to MP3. They seem to offer better quality and greater efficiency. Look at MPEG 1 and MPEG 2 at the same bitrate, MPEG 1 always looks worse
The studios are going to put extras on whether you like it or not and the space saved by using VC-1 over MPEG2 will probably give more than enough room for extras. Of course with dual-layer Blu-ray that's not really a concern like it is with HD-DVD (who seem to want to take the cheapest option on everything single layer anyone? :gag: )
thescrounger
26-02-2005, 20:43
Since HD-DVD is cheaper to produce and manufacture, it's not unlikely that extras would be put on a second single layer disc. At the same time making punters think they are getting more bang for their buck with a two disc set. ;)
I've said this before, but in the light of the debate in the last few posts it looks like it is worth saying again:
A typical 2 hour movie, at 1920x1080 resolution (1080i), with DD5.1 and AC3 sound, requires between 10 and 16 gigabytes of disk space when encoded in MPEG2 at high quality with no artifacts. Most movies will therefore fit easily into a single-layer HD-DVD, with enough space for plenty of extras. A dual-layer HD-DVD (25GB) would be able to fit all four hours of Return of the King.
So it will not in most cases be necessary for producers to use the more compressed codecs like WM9 or other variants of MPEG4. The only reason, commercially, why producers might decide to do that is if it is perceived to offer better copy protection.
For PC playback, it is worth noting that if you use the correct software (i.e. not Windows Media Player 10) then high-definition material, both 720p and 1080i, in all formats (WM9, MPEG2, etc) can be played back flawlessly on even a moderately powered system - for example AMD Athlon XP 2500 with ATI Radeon 9250. (The only exception would be 720p material at 60 frames per second, like some sports programming - because of the 60 full frames per second that requires the most powerful processors like Athlon XP 3000+ or A64.)
zantarous
01-03-2005, 16:04
I've said this before, but in the light of the debate in the last few posts it looks like it is worth saying again:
A typical 2 hour movie, at 1920x1080 resolution (1080i), with DD5.1 and AC3 sound, requires between 10 and 16 gigabytes of disk space when encoded in MPEG2 at high quality with no artifacts. Most movies will therefore fit easily into a single-layer HD-DVD, with enough space for plenty of extras. A dual-layer HD-DVD (25GB) would be able to fit all four hours of Return of the King.
Unless you are actually working on a HD discs or Bluray this is all hearsay for the time being, there was a time when most DVD's came on single layer and the quality was more then adequate, now days most people in the know would scorn at it.
kiran_mk2
01-03-2005, 22:55
I've said this before, but in the light of the debate in the last few posts it looks like it is worth saying again:
A typical 2 hour movie, at 1920x1080 resolution (1080i), with DD5.1 and AC3 sound, requires between 10 and 16 gigabytes of disk space when encoded in MPEG2 at high quality with no artifacts. Most movies will therefore fit easily into a single-layer HD-DVD, with enough space for plenty of extras. A dual-layer HD-DVD (25GB) would be able to fit all four hours of Return of the King.
But they will have dolby MLP and DTS-lossless which will up the storage requirements even more
zantarous, you want some actual numbers?
e.g. The Fifth Element - 11,132,547,284 bytes for MPEG2 video
Sorry I can't say more.
kiran_mk2
You are right, my numbers did not include the space for those new audio formats. But I'm not sure that many HD-DVDs will have those audio formats initially, even though they are part of the spec, because there is little or no hardware that can actually deal with them - also there are heavy licensing costs involved. I think it is more likely that after a few years, the early HD-DVD releases will be 're-released' with upgraded audio specs.
Screen Digest have published an HD analysis (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/08/hd_and_hdtv_analysis/) at The Register, which I found useful -- there's been a lot of information in this thread and I find myself lost on occasion. :D
filmfan100
08-03-2005, 16:52
I don`t know if its of interest but the Germans are carrying out free to air tests
in high definition on I think Pro siebon showing Spiderman in the clear on 13th March so if you have a hd receiver and tele get viewing.Its starting to happen
and in the clear. :D
How do you know this Filmfan?
Today it was announced that Apple have officially picked Blu-ray over HD-DVD.
thescrounger
11-03-2005, 10:11
A dubious mistake there.
Ben Martin
11-03-2005, 12:38
:?: what does that mean?
some more info on this from The Digital Bits (http://wwww.thedigitalbits.com/):
Some more major news today. The Blu-ray Disc Association has announced that Apple Computer has become its latest member, making Blu-ray Disc its choice in the coming next-generation optical disc format war. You can read more at these links at News.com and the MacNewsNetwork. Apple CEO Steve Jobs issued this quote today: "Apple is pleased to join the Blu-ray Disc Association board as part of our efforts to drive consumer adoption of HD. Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple's leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs."
This is a big deal, folks. The Blu-ray Disc Association already has the support of PC giants Dell, Sony and HP. It's long been our belief that on the technical merits of the Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD specs alone, Blu-ray is the clear winner. It seems that most of the computer and electronics industries agree. Keep in mind that Sony's forthcoming PS3 videogame platform is going to use Blu-ray Disc as its storage format. It seems now that the only real war between these two formats is going to be waged in Hollywood between the studios already supporting Blu-ray (Disney, Sony, MGM and possibly Fox, which we hear is leaning toward Blu-ray) and those supporting HD-DVD (Warner, Universal, Paramount and New Line). There are also rumors that a number of major retailers like WalMart and Best Buy may be planning to carry one format or the other exclusively. It's gonna get very ugly before all this is over, folks.
thescrounger
11-03-2005, 13:50
Well, Bluray is more likely to take off merely as a computer disc storage medium, while HD-DVD will have the market on home entertainment and films.
Well, Bluray is more likely to take off merely as a computer disc storage medium, while HD-DVD will have the market on home entertainment and films.
There's a very small chance that will happen. If BD-rw drives couldn't playback films and standalone players couldn't playback the discs they burnt then you could treat them as seperate markets. As it is what happens in one area will happen have a huge influence in another.
Having almost every PC in the world shipping with a BD drive will ensure a much higher brand recognition and that a good percentage will watch BD films on those drives. People will also want to be able to burn video onto a disc to playback in standalone machines.
thescrounger
11-03-2005, 16:12
Trouble is it's a stalemate. Bluray has more technology and manufaturers behind it, but HD-DVD has more movie studios behind it. So you'll have one system with more chioce of machine and one system offering a bigger range of movies.
Until they can come to a compromise, I doubt I'll support either.
filmfan100
11-03-2005, 19:25
How do you know this Filmfan?
Read it on the free to air news on a sat forum.
filmfan100
11-03-2005, 19:26
Deleted as posted twice
kiran_mk2
11-03-2005, 23:19
There are also rumors that a number of major retailers like WalMart and Best Buy may be planning to carry one format or the other exclusively.
Can't really see this happening - why would a retail chain not stock a lot of films simply because they bacl a certain type of technology? If the studios stay as they are, then BRD will probably win purely because all computers (and the PS3) will come with a BRD drive.
Trouble is it's a stalemate.
Hardly a stalemate (wrong word really). HD-DVD have half the studio's but only one or two CE manufacturers. Blu-ray has everyone else including all the PC manufacturers and Apple. It's no good having half the studios if there aren't any players. People will buy the players and films from the studios that support it and then as studio's move to Blu-ray they'll have more of a choice.
personally, i hope that blueray makes it if only for the extra capacity possibilities which i suppose is the only real diff between it and hd-dvd.
i would hope that although they would use some other codec for the most part for compression, that they would use the extra space for a potential HD 'superbit' release of movies in mpeg-2.
some of the transport streams i've seen through :nono: sources are outstanding quality and i cant help feel that bluray et al will just compress too much to fit into space just like when dvds first came out and movies were crammed onto single layer disks.
----
it's early, i'm tired so i have no idea if any of that made sense :doh:
That mostly made sense. While they will compress the video I think it'll be at the optimum bitrate and on Blu-ray they'll still have enough space for loads of extras
To be honest though, I bought a DVD player before DVD was launched in the uk and I don't remember highly compressed single-layer films being an issue. The biggest problem at the start were flippers rather than dual-layer
DeadKenny
13-03-2005, 21:34
I was reading a US home cinema mag at the airport the other day about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and it made a valid point about the fact that the differing DVD standards merged late in the day producing a single standard with the best of everything.
The early DVDs were woeful mainly because the encoding was done poorly and artifacts were often very visible and what's more intrusive *cough* Highlander *cough*. I stuck with laserdiscs till late '99 for that very reason.
Going by the 1080p demo's from Microsoft, 2 minutes = 120Mb which means a whole film will be about 8Gb. even assuming it ends up double this, both HD formats will have plenty of space as they're talking way more capacity. Even a dual layer DVD disc would probably do it.
It's all going to be down to the amount of extra content and people aren't going to worry if extra's are highly compressed and look horrible. Most people don't worry about the poor video transfers that you get on DVDs now, and certainly it doesn't stop people buying DVDs.
I still maintain both format's will flop (compared to the success of DVD) for reasons mentioned before, but which is the least flop will be whichever has the biggest backing, and Blu-Ray looks favourite to me, simply because of the Sony/PS3 factor.
Blu-Ray looks favourite to me, simply because of the Sony/PS3 factor.
True but if HD-DVD had all the CE and PC manufacturers then I think it might cancel that out. But they've also gone for Blu-ray so it's not really an issue.
I don't think the winning format will flop, but it's growth certainly won't be as fast as DVD because of the need to buy a new TV.
I wasn't aware of any problems with DVD quality after mid-98, I didn't see any complaints at least.
DeadKenny, I've heard the same thing recently too. However I really can't see anything that HD-DVD does better for Blu-ray to want a merger. In fact the BDA said the same thing at the CES
DeadKenny
14-03-2005, 17:51
DeadKenny, I've heard the same thing recently too. However I really can't see anything that HD-DVD does better for Blu-ray to want a merger. In fact the BDA said the same thing at the CES
Chances are if there is a merge it will just be the two standards bodies merging rather than the standards themselves. It could be they essentially adopt both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray as subsets of one branded format and the players will play anything of that format (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray).
That way everyone is appearing to adopting one format, the consumer just buys an 'HD' disc and it works, and they don't have to worry about whether it's Blu-Ray or HD-DVD under the hood. Then the studios can decide what they want to go with depending on their needs (and costs).
Or they may merge and basically drop HD-DVD and adopt Blu-Ray (but change the name if they have any sense, otherwise people will not have a clue what Blu-Ray is ;)).
Or they may merge and basically drop HD-DVD and adopt Blu-Ray (but change the name if they have any sense, otherwise people will not have a clue what Blu-Ray is ;)).
Well once upon a time no one knew what VHS, DVD or Walkman was.
I think the only thing that can happen now is that Toshiba and NEC join the BDA which isn't really a merger. I don't think they will until they can see HD-DVD has failed. I was going to say "until they can see HD-DVD will fail" but if they can't see it now it looks like they won't conceed defeat until they are defeated.
kiran_mk2
14-03-2005, 22:42
Well once upon a time no one knew what VHS, DVD or Walkman was.
I think the only thing that can happen now is that Toshiba and NEC join the BDA which isn't really a merger. I don't think they will until they can see HD-DVD has failed. I was going to say "until they can see HD-DVD will fail" but if they can't see it now it looks like they won't conceed defeat until they are defeated.
Film-wise they are far from beaten - they've "got" half the studios. It just depends what happens on the PC front. If Dell/HP/Apple start churning out PCs with BRD drive in October, then the ready availability of HD screens (ie PC monitors) will let people get into BRD pretty quickly with not much risk of spending loads on a first gen BRD player (I can't see a BRD-rom drive costing much more than £150, even with CD/DVDRW capabilities) - especially with the abundance of HTPCs.
Film-wise they are far from beaten - they've "got" half the studios.
What do you mean by "film wise"? They've got half the studios but so have BDA. The studio support thing really doesn't matter as much as some people think. The studios will release titles on the most successful format. If we get to summer 2006 and the BDA have shifted 4 million players worldwide and HD-DVD less than 1million would Paramount or Universal stick to their decision (provided they haven't signed anything preventing them) ?
At the end of the day having half the studios means nothing if there are barely any players capable of playing them
This just posted by High Deff on the AV Forums (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196693)
Brand new from the CEBIT 2005 show.: SAMSUNG will combine BLUE RAY and HD DVD in one player, according to technical manager Y.C. Chang ........see German link.:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/57509
thescrounger
15-03-2005, 10:56
Hardly a stalemate (wrong word really). HD-DVD have half the studio's but only one or two CE manufacturers. Blu-ray has everyone else including all the PC manufacturers and Apple. It's no good having half the studios if there aren't any players. People will buy the players and films from the studios that support it and then as studio's move to Blu-ray they'll have more of a choice.
That's one way to look at it. The other way is people will go 'ooh, look all my favourite films, which machine do I need? An HD-DVD one, cool I'll take it."
Technology has always won by what software is available for it. But if combo decks arrive I don't really see what the issue will be.
Who won the last console war?, nobody, all the machines are still there. But I think most people will see Bluray as a PC storage medium and HD-DVD as the natural successor to DVD.
neither will flop, but we will have the same mess as we do with recordable dvd...which eventually has been worked out as 'who cares what format as everything is dual'...but it would be nice if we started acting like a planet rather than squabbling tribes.
I think in the HDDVD case it will be US that shows which format is the dvd replacement purely because of the fact they are further along the HD transition, so a lot of consumers will just need to replace the player rather than us euro's that need hd widescreen tv's and new players, and probly new tv cable/sat boxes to go with it.
Technology has always won by what software is available for it. But if combo decks arrive I don't really see what the issue will be.
Well sort of. The console war at the moment has been won by the PS2. It's not the cheapest, it's not the most powerful and it doesn't even have the best games.
However it can't be compared to this war because only one company is behind each format. If you could get the companies in the BDA to back the Gamecube you wouldn't see the others for dust
No one, not even HD-DVD advocates, wants combo decks. A combo deck would artificially extend the life of HD-DVD and slow uptake of Blu-ray. At worst it would ensure a dual format that would be annoying, confusing and damaging. It wouldn't benefit the consumers in any way except those who bought HD-DVD in spite of the odds.
Looking at the formats in my way is best. Of course some people will go what format does x studio support, but doing that is a big mistake. Picking the format first ensures that you'll get your fav film (eventually) on the best format. Picking film first could mean you end up with the format you don't neccessarily want, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.
CJB, of course, the americans will decide who wins but the Japaneese will have a huge say. Blu-ray is thrashing HD-DVD in Japan :p
I don't agree that it'll be like DVD-r though, with that, it didn't really matter that there were dual formats because you just had to buy the right blanks. It doesn't stop people from exchanging recorded discs because I believe most DVD players will read both. Also you could say that it's prevented DVD recording from taking off
No one, not even HD-DVD advocates, wants combo decks. A combo deck would artificially extend the life of HD-DVD and slow uptake of Blu-ray. At worst it would ensure a dual format that would be annoying, confusing and damaging. It wouldn't benefit the consumers in any way except those who bought HD-DVD in spite of the odds.
if they don't like it why don't they decide on one damn format then! :)
I was going to mention the jap influence, but they have funny formats anyways for most of their stuff! ;)
I wasn't aware of any problems with DVD quality after mid-98, I didn't see any complaints at least.
Well it was a problem on alot of early DVDs. Highlander was truly horrendous and made a mockery of the THX badge. Laserdiscs also suffered from dodgy transfers (PAL Frankenstein and Patriot Games spring to mind) but at least they were just a bit grainy and didn't have nasty compression artifacts too.
I've uploaded a few examples here (http://www.atgh62.dsl.pipex.com/images/cap001.bmp), here (http://www.atgh62.dsl.pipex.com/images/cap002.bmp) and here (http://www.atgh62.dsl.pipex.com/images/cap003.bmp). Believe me they look much worse on a projector screen.
The Highlander I have is from the boxed set with H2 (released late 1997), but I saw plenty of other similar examples during 1998/1999 at Laser Enterprises in Wickford and another place in Dagenham I can't remember the name of. This is the only pre-2000 example I have because I refused to move till it was sorted out.
If the first batch of HD discs are of a similar ilk, they'll be dead in the water.
Of course as has been mentioned before there's also the high probability that Comet/Currys/Dixons etc will be piping a vanila DVD signal to any HD screens, or even if they get an HD player going, they'll put it through composite video connectors and their multi-signal splitter boxes to the plasmas because anything else is too complicated / too much effort for them.
If the first batch of HD discs are of a similar ilk, they'll be dead in the water.
Those particular titles or HD discs in general? If it's the latter it didn't effect DVD
I've never had a DVD I've been particularly unhappy with although I've never watched on anything larger than 17" (but very close up). I don't remember hearing about widespread quality issued at the time either, although there was the odd title that had artfiacts (maybe that's still true today?)
What connecter do comet use for their DLP display? It's fed by a PC so it has to be at least VGA if not DVI.
thescrounger
16-03-2005, 00:03
The first batch of HD-DVD discs won't be of a similar ilk to the early DVDs. For a start quite a lot of brand new films are coming out in the format.
CJB, of course, the americans will decide who wins but the Japaneese will have a huge say. Blu-ray is thrashing HD-DVD in Japan
But then again, Minidisc is huge in Japan and has been for years, in comparison to it's minority popularity in the west. Besides, how can it be thrashing HD-DVD considering there's only two movie studios putting out films on the format?
I don't think anybody here can predict what will 'win'. I've said it before, it depends on the marketing machine. Bluray will have a hard time as a new format as it's obvious HD-DVD will be marketed to the public as the natural upgrade to DVD. It's got 'DVD' in the title and they will get that. The amount of affordable films will also be a huge selling point. What does bluray offer to them? larger capacity that they most likely won't need if they are just buying films on the format.
Those particular titles or HD discs in general? If it's the latter it didn't effect DVD
I've never had a DVD I've been particularly unhappy with although I've never watched on anything larger than 17" (but very close up). I don't remember hearing about widespread quality issued at the time either, although there was the odd title that had artfiacts (maybe that's still true today?).
Eh? You didn't see any issues so they didn't happen even when i put screenshots up for you to see? :brickwall
Eh? You didn't see any issues so they didn't happen
I never said they didn't happen, I said I don't remember there being any widespread complaints. I don't remember any early adopters saying "DVD's are crap, I'm sticking with LD". I know there are some who thought that very early on, pre-1999, but I think they only had issues with certain titles and a lot of them were LD fanboys who didn't want to upgrade
Scrounger, Blu-ray have sold a million times the number of machines HD-DVD have in Japan. I don't see where you get "two studio's" from, no studio is currently publishing for either format and Blu-ray has three studio's on board with Fox looking likely to join them
I find it hard to believe that most people will just buy films but even if they do greater capacity means better quality and more content. I'm sure most people would like to see maximum sound and video quality, lots of content and more advanced features. I'm sure they'd agree that it's better to have that even if they don't care about it if someone else does.
Lastly we can all predict who'll win, we just can't all be right
Once dual format machines come out (and they will) I don't think most people will really care which disk type a film is on - a bit like the whole DVD-R/+R situation really.
If a film company only supports one format then it's a moot point arguing if one type is 0.05% better than the other - you just buy whatever disk type the film is on.
The main problem with DVD atm is all the processing / oversharpening / filtering they do with a lot of films which may make them look really good on a portable TV but look awful on a projector (eg POTC) - I can't see this changing much for HD-DVD/BlyRay either.
Taq
thescrounger
17-03-2005, 09:20
Scrounger, Blu-ray have sold a million times the number of machines HD-DVD have in Japan. I don't see where you get "two studio's" from, no studio is currently publishing for either format and Blu-ray has three studio's on board with Fox looking likely to join them
HD-DVD has 75% of the movie studios behind it. That's a huge amount. I don't see how Bluray will win when it just doesn't have the range of films (and allegedly is more expensive to boot).
Remember how few movies were available on Betamax compared to VHS? I rest my case.
What James Cameron has to say on the subject:
I had the chance to speak with Cameron directly for a few minutes. Asked about his take on the looming format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc, Cameron said that he'd seen demonstrations of both formats, and has looked at each critically with an eye toward spotting artifacts and other quality related issues. He's impressed with both HD-DVD and Blu-ray, and feels that it's a bit of a wash in terms of which format has the technical edge. Although Cameron is looking forward to a future high-definition release of Titanic (and the new transfer of the film was done in HD), he's not planning an HD release anytime soon.
DeadKenny
17-03-2005, 10:46
I never said they didn't happen, I said I don't remember there being any widespread complaints. I don't remember any early adopters saying "DVD's are crap, I'm sticking with LD". I know there are some who thought that very early on, pre-1999, but I think they only had issues with certain titles and a lot of them were LD fanboys who didn't want to upgrade
The latter mainly. I remember some quite heated arguments on usenet newsgroups about DVD at the time with very pessemistic views from laserdisc fans going on about how you saw very few DVDs in HMV, they'd claim the quality was only a bit better than VideoCD, and generally predicted their demise and Laserdisc was the way forward :cuckoo: . I was very optimistic about them and my predictions about DVD's take-off were pretty much spot on. As a consumer I could see it was a winning format.
Still there were plenty of flaws with early releases, mainly in terms of shockingly bad transfers though (remembering that just because you've got a disc with a particular resolution and set of features doesn't mean the transfer is guaranteed to be good, and the same will go for HD. Chucking more resolution and 'bits' at it isn't enough).
HD-DVD has 75% of the movie studios behind it. That's a huge amount. I don't see how Bluray will win when it just doesn't have the range of films (and allegedly is more expensive to boot).
Remember how few movies were available on Betamax compared to VHS? I rest my case.
No, I'm not THAT old! :eek: How many where there? How many manufacturers made Betamax machines (just sony?) or VHS (just JVC?) ?
HD-DVD doesn't have 75% of studio's, that's just incorrect. Blu-ray will have the same range of films or close to HD-DVD. Like I say, the winning format will have all studio's so there's no reason to decide on film studio's
The latter mainly. I remember some quite heated arguments on usenet newsgroups about DVD at the time with very pessemistic views from laserdisc fans going on about how you saw very few DVDs in HMV, they'd claim the quality was only a bit better than VideoCD, and generally predicted their demise and Laserdisc was the way forward :cuckoo: . I was very optimistic about them and my predictions about DVD's take-off were pretty much spot on. As a consumer I could see it was a winning format.
Still there were plenty of flaws with early releases, mainly in terms of shockingly bad transfers though (remembering that just because you've got a disc with a particular resolution and set of features doesn't mean the transfer is guaranteed to be good, and the same will go for HD. Chucking more resolution and 'bits' at it isn't enough).
Laserdisc was never the way forward - it was roughly 25 yrs old in 1999 and I doubt many laserdisc owners believed it would carry on much longer. People also forget why people loved Laserdisc, but still went and bought DVDs - they were big shiny things compared to small shiny things :)
The problem was that early DVDs were barely above VCD quality and it was only in 99 that things were resolved.
Strangely it was also in 99 that the price dropped significantly (to under £20) which compared with £35+ for a laserdisc, in 99 than anamorphic releases came about (which laserdisc never had) and in 99 that DVD took off.
Basically DVD took off when it was better *and* cheaper than Laserdisc.
I'm yet to be convinced either the HD formats will be both better and cheaper (or even the same price) or that the general public really care about quality beyond "good enough".
filmfan100
17-03-2005, 22:35
No, I'm not THAT old! :eek: How many where there? How many manufacturers made Betamax machines (just sony?) or VHS (just JVC?) ?
HD-DVD doesn't have 75% of studio's, that's just incorrect. Blu-ray will have the same range of films or close to HD-DVD. Like I say, the winning format will have all studio's so there's no reason to decide on film studio's
Everybody forgets about Video 2000.The best video system.In its day far better
than VHS and slightly better than Betamax.When Warner Bros started issuing
tapes for rental I thought I had backed the right horse.Wrong and 3 further
VHS decks,two being SVHS now consigned to the bin and just using DVD.
Until HD tv is sorted which will be a long time as it looks like only foreign services
are going to give far better pictures.If you have the money you can buy a Irdeto
HD tv sat receiver and legal sub if you want to dip your toe in the water.
Sky I cannot see giving the bandwidth needed due to reasons already posted.
I for one would have 20 or 30 channels with far less repeats.Decent picture
quality with depth to the colours not seen for a long time and the ability to
record it.
DeadKenny
17-03-2005, 23:21
Laserdisc was never the way forward - it was roughly 25 yrs old in 1999 and I doubt many laserdisc owners believed it would carry on much longer.
There was one particular guy on the newsgroups I had a long argument with who just would not accept at all that DVD could be better than laserdisc and used to say that DVD was a failure because all you could find in the likes of HMV was VHS and laserdisc (despite me pointing out that laserdiscs were consigned to a shady corner and only in the bigger stores) :oh-hum:.
Laserdisc had been going for a long time, but it was only in the 90s when it took off. There were many on the newsgroups who were very much sold on laserdisc and didn't want to give it up for DVD.
When DVD started appearing in the stores, laserdisc was promptly booted out and forgotten.
I never bought into the laserdisc thing myself. It was analogue and just not an attractive consumer item being that it reminded me of a shiny version an old vinyl record.
The problem was that early DVDs were barely above VCD quality and it was only in 99 that things were resolved.
If you're saying that DVD's were just above VCD quality in 98 then you're sorely mistake. I got my first DVD in Feb 98 and it's WAY above VCD. In fact, it's one of the best picture qualities I've seen, though I've been using software decoders recently.
Everybody forgets about Video 2000.
Not me! But I don't think it really counts for much since it was the first to go.
Sky I cannot see giving the bandwidth needed due to reasons already posted.
I for one would have 20 or 30 channels with far less repeats
What reasons?
To be fair, there aren't that many repeats on Sky. The only things they over repeat are The Simpsons and Star Trek. They do show a decent number of new episodes throughout the year and they might repeat a series again which gives you a chance to catch up.
You will have great picture quality and the ability to record from the start, something the US market doesn't really have even though HD's been around for yonks.
DeadKenny
18-03-2005, 09:36
You will have great picture quality and the ability to record from the start, something the US market doesn't really have even though HD's been around for yonks.
DirecTV's HD TiVo been around for ages, though you do have to be a DirecTV subscriber, but that's no different to being required to be a Sky subscriber. I believe there's an integrated cable version (or at least in the works) and there's a specification for an over-the-air (HD via the aerial) standalone HD Tivo box but no manufacturer's are interested in making it (market is too small).
You'll still need to buy an HD version of Sky+ anyway and likely pay a higher sub for it. Other HD recorders will face similar problems to the US (i.e. needs to have a direct feed, i.e. digital tuner, can't just record off a SCART socket:gag:, so needs to be an integrated cable or over-the-air box).
Everybody forgets about Video 2000.The best video system
Our geography department at school had one of them. Don't remember being blown away by the quality but that was probably due to it showing boring geography programmes all the time ;)
Taq
BlueDwarf
18-03-2005, 23:38
What reasons?
Based on far too much of Sky's output looking ***** at the moment I'd guess. Some of the football (for example) is a disgrace.
filmfan100
19-03-2005, 11:44
Based on far too much of Sky's output looking ***** at the moment I'd guess. Some of the football (for example) is a disgrace.
I am afraid I bought a sub to a foreign channel.This shows live Premier league
footy if you want it,newer films.Recorded Troy 3 weeks ago,Dodge Ball not that
I have watched it yet.The Bourne Supremacy,missed it the first time arround.
Brilliant package.Granted the picture quality is`nt good except on the Premier
film channel or on the live football but I can live with that.
The big problem if you have children is it shows XXX on 3 film channels before
11pm some nights, so you would have to operate the parental lock on the card or remove it at night . :)
There was one particular guy on the newsgroups I had a long argument with who just would not accept at all that DVD could be better than laserdisc and used to say that DVD was a failure because all you could find in the likes of HMV was VHS and laserdisc (despite me pointing out that laserdiscs were consigned to a shady corner and only in the bigger stores) :oh-hum:.
I only remember ever seeing Laserdiscs in the the Oxford Street HMV and Lakeside. It was very much a niche market, so although a majority of that newsgroup may have been thinking one way, it was no-way reflective of the general public / mass market.
I never bought into the laserdisc thing myself. It was analogue and just not an attractive consumer item being that it reminded me of a shiny version an old vinyl record.
Analogue video but non compressed CD audio tracks, so actually better that DVD (although only 2 of them). Later on they also had the AC3/DTS compressed tracks.
Anyway analogue isn't reason enough to hate something and Digital isn't reason enough to like something. I'm sure you'd hate a 300kb/s bitrate DVD picture with 32kb/s audio :)
It was effectively a shiny version of an old vinyl record but for me that was goo, but then again I used to buy computer games for the Amiga based on how heavy the box was :]
DeadKenny
21-03-2005, 11:07
Only 1.3% of flat panels sold in the UK are HD ready apparently :eek: ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4361543.stm
Only 1.3% of flat panels sold in the UK are HD ready apparently :eek: ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4361543.stm
woa, that's higher than I expected, given that we have a very very limited use for them, consoles and pc's being the only thing I can think anybody would use a HD panel for.
Next generation will probly only be hd panels (if only at the 720 res)
thescrounger
21-03-2005, 11:32
Next generation will probly only be hd panels (if only at the 720 res)
Eh? :nuts:
Way, way off the mark.
BlueDwarf
21-03-2005, 15:23
From that BBC link:
"High-definition essentially makes TV at least four times better than now."
Is it me, or is that quote less than meaningless? :nuts:
Eh? :nuts:
Way, way off the mark.
In which way? they all are now? or wont be for ages?
thescrounger
21-03-2005, 17:29
You said the next generation would all only be HD panels. I think it's safe to say all panels for many years to come will cater for all the screen resolutions available.
Stevie G
24-03-2005, 12:53
Not sure if it's been asked already, but is HDTV digital TV broadcasts expected in the future/near future? I've been looking to get a USB digital TV capture card and noticed a new Hauppauge one that supports HDTV broadcasts.
Anyone know much about it? Is it worth me going for this box as it supports HDTV or is it probably just a vacuous selling point?
DeadKenny
24-03-2005, 15:11
Not sure if it's been asked already, but is HDTV digital TV broadcasts expected in the future/near future? I've been looking to get a USB digital TV capture card and noticed a new Hauppauge one that supports HDTV broadcasts.
Anyone know much about it? Is it worth me going for this box as it supports HDTV or is it probably just a vacuous selling point?
We've discussed a fair bit on HD broadcasts via Sky here and also in this (http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335297) thread.
In short though, 2006 for Sky (possibly slightly earlier). That's the earliest in the UK. Boxes should be available by xmas. The only TV cards you could use with Sky is something that supports an HDMI input with HDCP support (though the word is unofficially that the initial sky boxes will support outputting analogue HD via component, so any cards that accept this will work... initially ;))
There are no plans at the moment for terrestrial HDTV (via an aerial that is), but there are plans for cable HDTV though no set timetable.
Stevie G
25-03-2005, 09:25
Thanks Deadkenny, but I didn't mean Sky broadcasting HDTV. I meant terrestrial tv broadcasts over the airwaves. I posted mention of a Hauppauge box above but after looking I meant an AVerTV DVB-T USB 2.0 (http://www.avermedia.com/cgi-bin/products_digitvtuner_dvbtusb2.asp?show=2) USB2 capture card. It's for DVB and they're selling it as being 'HDTV (1080i) ready'.
Are there any plans for future DVB broadcasts on freeview or would it be a waste of money getting one that will support something that won't happen?
Thanks.
Probably because the majority of plasma owners have bought one of the Panasonic PW range which have a pathetic 480 line resolution.
Im waiting until they produce 1080 line plasmas, then i'll make a purchase, i'll make do with my 28" for now.
You said the next generation would all only be HD panels. I think it's safe to say all panels for many years to come will cater for all the screen resolutions available.
Well HD panels will do that. I think he's saying that you won't be able to buy a panel with <720 lines.
StevieG, there are plans and there are plans. AFAIK the BBC plan to broadcast HDTV via Freeview but they haven't announced it but it looks likely. If they turn the analogue off they can manage that and the existing channels with something left to sell off at the end.
Matt.Wild
26-03-2005, 11:08
If I go for a TV that can do all the different res's such as 720i, 1080i etc but without the DVI port, could the TV still do the HD but via component?
Stevie G
26-03-2005, 15:13
StevieG, there are plans and there are plans. AFAIK the BBC plan to broadcast HDTV via Freeview but they haven't announced it but it looks likely. If they turn the analogue off they can manage that and the existing channels with something left to sell off at the end.
Ah, ok, thanks. I may go for it anyway. It's a new one and looks pretty good value.
If I go for a TV that can do all the different res's such as 720i, 1080i etc but without the DVI port, could the TV still do the HD but via component?
Aren't the majority of HDTV broadcasts (certainly Sky's) going to be digitally encrypted so they'll only be veiwable on tv's with the correct digital interface?
Matt.Wild
26-03-2005, 15:45
Hmmm my main area of contention is DVDs (or HD-DVD by then!) - is component gonna be good enough to take the HD signal?
Hmmm my main area of contention is DVDs (or HD-DVD by then!) - is component gonna be good enough to take the HD signal?
What makes you think Blu-ray (or even HD-DVD) will have component out? If they do, then component will be good enough but I wouln't be surprised if they banned component output.
With regards to Sky HD, the truth is we just don't know. Originally Sky indicated that most things would be encrypted but then they announced the STB's would have component out, which confused things. You might see some stuff via component but not films. but things aren't settled
Matt.Wild
27-03-2005, 14:38
Pants!
Well, I guess i'm gonna hold fire on a plasma until I can get a HD set then :(
DeadKenny
29-03-2005, 01:34
StevieG, there are plans and there are plans. AFAIK the BBC plan to broadcast HDTV via Freeview but they haven't announced it but it looks likely. If they turn the analogue off they can manage that and the existing channels with something left to sell off at the end.
I think BBC have only announced HD via Sky and potentially Cable, but as you say nothing announced for over-the-air (be it Freeview, or whatever it will be called by the time they get around to it).
There's just not the capacity in the current terrestrial over-the-air bandwidth for HD until analogue is switched off, and we're talking a very long time until that's turned off (analogue sat and cable will be switched off much earlier of course). 2010 at least would be my guess. Current Freeview is barely capable of delivering a decent bitrate for SD telly, let alone HD.
That's not to say they couldn't find frequencies elsewhere they can allocate, but they'll require new aerials, and anyone spending money on it is more likely to buy a satellite dish or cable to get HD anyway.
Well, I guess i'm gonna hold fire on a plasma until I can get a HD set then :(
From what I've read, from this or next month you should start seeing "HD Ready" logos on equipment in shops. This is what you need to be looking for.
Even then, that may only be a guarantee of 720p capability, though I suspect most will do 1080i. Though it should in theory indicate the set has the right inputs (DVI or HDMI) and content protection capability (HDCP).
The real money is in 1080p capable sets, but I doubt you'll see many in the UK, especially as no one seems to be broadcasting 1080p (though will HD/BluRay support 1080p? Microsoft's HD-WM9/10 supports it).
Ben Martin
29-03-2005, 08:11
i was under the impression that Blu-ray was going to support 1080p. though this is based solely on reading the thread over at the HTF where some of them visited Sony for a Blu-ray presentation.
kiran_mk2
29-03-2005, 16:20
I think the analogue frequencies will be given over to HD broadcasts - after all The US, Japan and Australia have got them and if Sky starts this year, the government won't want the UK to fall too far behind. To those who say the frequencies will be sold to phone companies - look what happened last time. The telecoms paid billions for their 3G licences that cause most of them to get into difficulties and the services have only just launched. Anyone wanting a 3G license now wouldn't be willing to pay anywhere near the money that was thrown around earlier for them.
DeadKenny
29-03-2005, 16:52
Analogue initially is being given over to provide better digital reception in areas that can't get digital (i.e. in some areas they can't get the digital frequencies due to complexities with the transmitter arrangements and costs, so they'll stick digital on the same frequencies as analogue and ditch analogue). So not everyone is going to get HD over aerial if they did offer it.
UK terrestrial transmission is very complicated due to the structure of the land and interference between neighbouring transmitters, and there isn't just a blank canvas of frequencies they'll be able to use across the country.
Much of the US is just huge flat land (not the Rockies of course but few people live there;)), and they just use single huge powerful transmitters that broadcast over entire states the size of the UK, whereas in the UK we have hundreds of transmitters trying to beam signals into every little pocket where the main transmitters won't reach. We also have complex regional arrangements (whereas Sky just broadcasts everything and the box picks the region "variant" of a channel based on post-code, terrestrial actually broadcasts the regional variant on particular transmitters and these have to avoid clashing with other transmitters).
Australia is similarly flat for much of it, and Japan thought about HD way ahead of everyone else so had it pretty much planned anyway (plus they have high mountains they can stick powerful transmitters on top of, and besides most have cable anyway).
I think BBC have only announced HD via Sky and potentially Cable
I don't think they've even announced that, however that's the implication
thescrounger
06-04-2005, 19:18
Anybody heard anything solid about these rumours that the DVD formats are talking about some kind of merger to avoid a format war?
DeadKenny
06-04-2005, 23:07
I've heard mention of it but no details.
I wouldn't be surprised though as it's exactly what happened with DVD when Toshiba/Warner and Philips/Sony merged to form the DVD Consortium (later known as the DVD Forum as more companies got on board). The two formats then were SD (Tosh/Warner) and MMCD (Philips/Sony). SD actually had the higher capacity but it wasn't as far ahead as MMCD in developing a dual-layer solution. They each varied a little in the way discs were manufactured.
DVD Video is essentially based on SD but borrowed some of MMCD's technology and sacrificed some of the storage space of SD (if SD had managed to get dual-layer going they'd have got 9GB per side of a disc compared to MMCD's 7.4GB).
SD also championed Dolby Digital and MMCD was pushing MPEG audio in Europe (due to royalties that Philips would earn on it). When they merged to form DVD, the MPEG audio requirement was retained for European players and the idea would be that all DVDs would be in MPEG not Dolby Digital. MPEG however was dropped but still today all players have to support it.
All sounds very familiar;), and the players in HD are the same...
Tosh/Warner = HD-DVD, Sony/Philips = Blu-Ray (obviously there are others signed up with each, but these are the key players just as before).
The format war over DVD was faught behind closed doors in the end and compromises were made. Almost certainly the same will happen here, although the DVD Forum has already adopted HD-DVD but there's no reason why they can't pull Blu-Ray on board and nick the best bits from them;)
Almost certainly the same will happen here, although the DVD Forum has already adopted HD-DVD but there's no reason why they can't pull Blu-Ray on board and nick the best bits from them;)
Or vice versa of course!
These rumors keep coming up but I don't know if anything will come of it. It seems like Toshiba are the main one against a merger even though they have most to loose. I'd like to see a merger but not if it diminishes the strong points of Blu-ray.
DeadKenny
14-04-2005, 10:06
Sony opens door to talks with HD-DVD...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/13/sony_blu-ray_hd-dvd_talks/
Niceguygeoff
14-04-2005, 21:12
It's about ******* time, but it's too little, too late. A unified HD disc product is a pipe dream at best, because both camps are at advanced stages of development for their respective formats and neither will give ground to the other because of their belief in their product: HD-DVD is part of the recognisable DVD brand, whilst BR is purported to be technologically superior.
It's intially surprising that Sony have offered an olive branch, but when one considers their track record with proprietary formats (Betamax & MiniDisc) it's clear that they don't want BR to go the same way; eventually finding a niche as a recordable format/storage medium with no pre-recorded software support (apart from PS3 games). Sony saw the dollar signs on the High Definition horizon and thought they'd cash in - but did they really expect it to be so easy?
I just hope this cluster-**** gets sorted before HD movies on disc arrive in the UK, because if it doesn't it'll just further complicate consumer confusion & apprehension over HD. I've already had a customer moan at me that he'll have to replace his movie collection all over again! I don't care which one's better; all I want to see is one format released in this country.
It's about ******* time,
It's about the 3rd time this story has surfaced
when one considers their track record with proprietary formats (Betamax & MiniDisc) it's clear that they don't want BR to go the same way
Minidisc is doing okay really but the difference with BR is that it's not proprietary. If anything it's HD-DVD that's prorietary
eventually finding a niche as a recordable format/storage medium with no pre-recorded software support
That's not going to happen. I don't understand where people get this BR will end up as storage only and HD-DVD will be films idea. All I can imagine is that HD-DVD supporters are trying to downplay it's inherent weakness by dismissing it from the equation. Whatever format suceeds, it will be for all uses. The one that's used for storage will be used for video.
Sony saw the dollar signs on the High Definition horizon and thought they'd cash in - but did they really expect it to be so easy?
So far it has been, mostly because it's not just Sony. If it were they wouldn't stand a chance. Why would a group in such a strong position want to avoid a format war? I can only imagine that it would be damaging for them to have some competiton.
True they'd win, but at what cost? Wouldn't it make sense for them to avoid a war that isn't neccessary? Even if Toshiba conceeded defeat in 6 months it could harm the growth of the format. Of course, if the BDA do manage to lure Toshiba over they'd have to pay for it, but perhaps it'd be a net saving.
thescrounger
15-04-2005, 10:52
It's about ******* time, but it's too little, too late. A unified HD disc product is a pipe dream at best, because both camps are at advanced stages of development for their respective formats and neither will give ground to the other because of their belief in their product: HD-DVD is part of the recognisable DVD brand, whilst BR is purported to be technologically superior.
It's intially surprising that Sony have offered an olive branch, but when one considers their track record with proprietary formats (Betamax & MiniDisc) it's clear that they don't want BR to go the same way; eventually finding a niche as a recordable format/storage medium with no pre-recorded software support (apart from PS3 games). Sony saw the dollar signs on the High Definition horizon and thought they'd cash in - but did they really expect it to be so easy?
I just hope this cluster-**** gets sorted before HD movies on disc arrive in the UK, because if it doesn't it'll just further complicate consumer confusion & apprehension over HD. I've already had a customer moan at me that he'll have to replace his movie collection all over again! I don't care which one's better; all I want to see is one format released in this country.
Yup, spot on.
DeadKenny
21-04-2005, 12:45
Talks of a hybrid format now...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4468047.stm
Of course Sony want their disc with features from HD-DVD and Tosh want their disc with features from BluRay :lol:
One quote from that article puzzles me though...
This offers incredible 3D-like quality pictures
Huh? :thinking:. "3D-Like" :lol:.
"3D-Like" :lol:.
They also use that in this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4210551.stm) from back in January. Perhaps they misinterpreted Rick Dean when he said "I have heard comments from people who say the images pop off the screen." ? :lol:
Niceguygeoff
21-04-2005, 22:32
It's about the 3rd time this story has surfaced
I know this isn't the first (or last!) time that we will have heard of these merger 'talks', but apparently Sony's initial offer to the HD-DVD camp was in the somewhat arrogant fashion of giving them an 'opportunity' to step aside, instead of constructive dialogue. Hence my exasperation in my last post upon hearing that actual sanity might be lurking in the collective mind of the main player behind Blu-Ray.
Sony - under new management, natch - has realised that a format war would be incredibly damaging not only to the overall success of HD on disc, but also to the fading consumer image of Sony as a whole. The almighty cock-up known as high-res audio has already proved how limiting such a war can be in the short term. Even now, a new hybrid format is being introduced to try and breathe life into this stagnating market, in the form of DualDisc. God knows what similarly unplayable abominations we may see if the high-res video formats become bogged down in a similar war of attrition. There are, of course, developments in this area already - and the movie-carrying HD formats haven't even been released yet! :brickwall
I was gonna say that Sony's recent change of heart has been quite refreshing, but it shouldn't feel that way. Sony, Toshiba et al should've been using that funny little thing called common sense in the first place, instead of being blinded by greed. But now it seems that even Toshiba have seen the light! Apparently discussions are making some headway, even at this late hour according to The Digital Bits. (http://www.thedigitalbits.com)
I honestly thought that, given the bluster and general "la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you" ignorance of both camps, a unified standard would not appear. But DVD got unified at the last minute (we were oh-so-close to getting MPEG audio as a European standard :gag: ) and look at the success it's enjoyed. Still, I can't quite see where ground will be given this time, as the formats are so different in technical terms. Sony surely won't give up Blu-Ray as a HD-video medium just yet, especially given their recent aquisition of MGM, and Warner's aggressive stance with HD-DVD releases (titles slated for launch 4th quarter 2005!) means that they're not going anywhere either.
With that in mind, perhaps the best we can hope for is simultaneous cross-format releases and universal players right from the off. A company has apparently already developed an optical block that can read both red and blue laser media, so that's a good start (perhaps we'll see a true unified format appearing after a few more years of development). And, on a slightly different tack, the abundance of recordable DVD formats hasn't damaged take-up of that particular medium, what with superb multi-format machines on the market (some of the best coming somewhat ironically from Sony!). Sure, there's been confusion amongst the unitiated, but when customers are told their machine can record on pretty much everything or that their one-format unit does pretty much what the other does anyway, then their fears are allayed. So would it be with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. At the very minimum, if the two camps could learn to coexist then the HD future would be an awful lot rosier, if still a little convoluted.
All I can say further is relax, camaj! I don't see any partisan views in this thread apart from your own, only people weighing up the pros and cons of two formats that aren't even out yet. If the war comes then people will naturally take sides, but until the current situation is resolved we're all better off looking at it from an objective point of view.
kiran_mk2
22-04-2005, 15:06
I'm not really sure how they can put together the best of both bits. BD has higher capacity than HD, but HD can use current manufacturing plants. Surely the higher capacity of BD is down to the differences in manufacturing.
It is good to see Sony abandon their rediculous proprietory systems (Memory Stick, MiniDisc, ATRAC etc), but it's odd cos this time they had most of the industry backing them - only Holywood was giving HD serious attention.
If the standards do merge, then how long will it take for drives to appear - after all prototypes for drives to launched in Q4 have only just been made...
DeadKenny
22-04-2005, 15:20
I think it's more to do with the software and video/audio formats. As they stand on their own Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are just storage medium with the only difference being the capacity. It's what goes on the disc that makes a bigger difference. It's mostly just down to arguing about the structure of the disc (software structure if you like), and what format video will be used (e.g. MPEG-2 or WM9/etc), content protection stuff, the choice of audio format, and so on.
I would predict the physical format chosen is Blu-Ray. Though back when DVD came about they went for a compromise between the two competing formats and it was down to manufacturing differences.
zantarous
05-05-2005, 04:24
Ok I am on holiday in the US at the moment and went into Wallmart tonight and did a double take as I walked past a plasma, at first I thought it was a fish tank but no, they had two plasmas set up one displaying regular SD and the other HD and the difference was staggering, the HD really did look as though it had real fish in it.
Even my step dad was impressed and he in 70's he asked me what he had to do to get HD and he was well happy when I told him he already had a HD set at home all he needs is to get a HD satalite box from his provider.
DeadKenny
12-05-2005, 23:11
More on the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD talks, this time Toshiba is knocking rumours that a deal is imminent...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/10/toshiba_slams_hd_claims/
Caught my first glimpse of HD in George Henry Lee's in the Liverpool City Centre store - wow, the quality just caught my eye immediately. Not sure what res it was running it but it was running various things off a connected up PC - can't wait till I jump on the HDTV train though! :D
More news today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4074550.stm
Even though Blu Ray holds more data I personally think that HD-DVD will win the war as it lookls like a normal DVD and BluRay needs a cartridgy device case thing :D which looks :gag: which will put people off.
zantarous
09-06-2005, 20:22
Hum have people been put of buy PSP's cause UMDs come in caddies? That is absurd that the customer will make their mind up on that, no doubt plastering compatible with PS3 on the boxes will help **** loads of discs but better yet I hope the two factions reach a compromise as one format is far more beneficial.
DeadKenny
09-06-2005, 21:14
Hum have people been put of buy PSP's cause UMDs come in caddies? That is absurd that the customer will make their mind up on that
DVD-RAM failed for the same reason.
It makes no odds technically, but I can see the reasons. I would personally view a bulky plastic case around a disc that looks like a CD/DVD to be a step backwards and I'd judge it inferior if I was Joe Public. Simple as that. It's all psychological. Though there are practical factors such as the bulk of the things when storing them.
People love the nice shiny CD and DVD.
After all, if you stuck a plastic case around Vinyl, would you love it as much? ;)
Marketing is after all more about image than content (if it wasn't then the fashion and cosmetic industry would have failed ;)).
All that aside though, I thought this was a non-issue anyway and Blu-Ray may be shipped sans-case? ;)
S1LVERBACK
10-06-2005, 02:47
but the majority of ram discs where caddyless :shrug: and the caddys arent the reason RAM failed. i love the idea and practicallity of the caddys myself and own quite a few :thumbs: imho anything to preserve the life of a disc is good if you ask me.lets face it how many times have you got scratches etc on cd`s dvd`s etc etc
UMD`s will fail movie wise as who the hell is gonna buy 2 versions of the one film or a UMD version only that you cant watch on a dvd player :cuckoo: and even if you could have UMD slot on standalone dvd players the resolution and picture after being blown up to the size would be horrendous.
i cant wait for true HD dvds myself but i doubt i will be replacing ALL my collection with them,it will just be the ones i love that are available.
as for sony :razz: there arrogance far outweigh the quality of there products,10 years ago there build quality was pretty solid but now :lol: and its not like sony have a great past in producing NEW media :oh-hum: they backed + dvd,said mini disc would destroy cds :lol: and if im not mistaken have only recently (compared to most small and some huge companys) got in on the MP3 domination of portable music.so what makes anyone think there gonna back the right conquering media this time :?:
kiran_mk2
10-06-2005, 17:19
its not like sony have a great past in producing NEW media :oh-hum: they backed + dvd,said mini disc would destroy cds :lol: and if im not mistaken have only recently (compared to most small and some huge companys) got in on the MP3 domination of portable music.so what makes anyone think there gonna back the right conquering media this time :?:
+ DVDR is better than -R cos you can use bitsetting to guarentee compatibility. Minidisc may have failed as a prerecorded format, but still lives on today as a high quality portable recording solution.
Besides - it's not as if Sony is going it alone (a la the memory stick duo) - they've got almost all the PC vendors and well over half of the electronic compaines behind them.
I really think that having ongoing talks will hurt the competitors - even early adopters will hold off if there is a chance of a hybrid format comming out half way through 2006. Either confirm 2 standards or agree not to release until an arrangement has been made.
S1LVERBACK
10-06-2005, 18:36
it doesnt matter which format is better its a battle to see which format gets adopted and wins ;) betamax was better than vhs and look who won that.svhs is better then standard and that didnt make a jot of difference.a better media doesnt mean it will win the domestic user battle..
Niceguygeoff
10-06-2005, 22:57
All that aside though, I thought this was a non-issue anyway and Blu-Ray may be shipped sans-case? ;)
Sony have confirmed (http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowArticle.action?articlesection=2&article=1104845091195&site=odw_en_GB) that Blu-ray will arrive in the West without a caddy. So it really is a non-issue. :thumbs:
The quality of HD really is superb, even on older films it makes such a difference, and it'll be great to finally see HD software on UK shelves. But where will it come from? Sony seem committed to their HD future, so that looks a cert for the UK, while HD-DVD can be replicated as easily as a DVD apparently, plus it's capacity is shooting up, so that looks a good bet also. It looks as if neither camp is gonna blink first, so even the UK will get a glimpse of the next big format war. I only hope it all turns out okay...
thescrounger
28-06-2005, 12:19
I think the war's about to be won:
Microsoft and Toshiba work together on HD-DVD (http://www.techspot.com/news/17933-Microsoft-and-Toshiba-work-to-work-together-on-HDDVD.html)
So much for all the claims that HD-DVD would make a big arrival this year, well in advance of Blu-Ray...
from The Digital Bits... (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa107.html#scale)
Today's issue of the Wall Street Journal features an article on HD-DVD, which indicates that the HD-DVD camp seems to be scaling back its 4th Qtr launch. Only Toshiba will likely have a player available in time for the holiday season launch, which at least Circuit City will carry (the exact date of availability has yet to be announced, but expect the price to be over $1,000). While Paramount had promised to issue some 20 HD-DVD titles for the debut, they now say they won't release any in 2005. Universal has trimmed back from 16 to 12 titles. Warner hasn't yet announced its HD-DVD software plans, reportedly waiting to see if there's an 11th hour compromise between the HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc camps. From the story: "If there is a unification of formats, we would want to work toward that," said Jim Cardwell, president of Warner Home Video, who didn't rule out a holiday-season launch for Warner movies on HD-DVD.
Home Media Retailing's T.K. Arnold has posted a similar story, adding that Warner Home Video may now wait until the 1st Qtr of 2006 to launch software titles on HD-DVD format. Another quote: “We are considering rolling back our launch in the hopes of a last-minute compromise, which would avoid two formats straining the marketplace,” said Jim Cardwell, president of Warner Home Video."
What's more, according to another story at HMR, new market studies conducted by Jupiter Research indicate that consumer interest in these new HD formats is still very low.
We believe here at The Bits that a compromise at this point is unlikely, although we haven't given up hope. We expect that both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray camps are getting an angry earful from retailers about the inconvenience of having to carry two new HD disc formats in addition to regular DVD. Whatever happens, WE STRONGLY ENCOURAGE ALL OUR READERS, PARTICULARLY EARLY ADOPTERS, TO SAVE YOUR MONEY. We know that some of you out there are excited about the prospect of HD on disc, and already have your own particular preference of the two formats, but if sales of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc are weak in the initial weeks and months after the launch of each format, the two camps will feel increasing pressure to sit down and seriously talk about a compromise. DON'T ENCOURAGE THE FORMAT WAR.
Blu-Ray's still the horse that's got my money in this race.
thescrounger
11-08-2005, 11:59
I won't back any format until they come to a unified compromise. I suspect that will happen once they realise people aren't buying either formats.
Last thing I want tis to start a collection of one format, only for them to become unified a year later.
Quote Reuters
On top of that, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely.
Whoops.
DeadKenny
06-09-2005, 09:42
Yep, that's the price you pay with Sony. Expect them to come down hard with the lawyers on anyone trying to sell hacks, thus making them illegal, like they do with the PS2.
I wouldn't be surprised too if they make the disc format for movies proprietary in such a way that they can only be manufacturered using licenced Sony equipment... like with the PS2. So although people can burn BluRay discs for storing data, they won't be able to burn a disc that will play on a BluRay player as they'd need to pay Sony for the equipment and suitable licences... just like with the PS2.
That would be my guess ;)
The HD-DVD solution will likely have none of this crap. They'll have some half baked content and regional protection knowing full well it will be hacked, and they have better things to do than chase after people with lawyers.
P.S. Seen the price of UMD discs for the PSP?... They having a laugh!! :eek:. Why do they get away with it?... because it's proprietary Sony.
neilalford
06-09-2005, 12:10
Quote Reuters
On top of that, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely.
Whoops.
Yep, I think that could be the big reason that HD-DVD wins over Blu-Ray, the whole internet connected protection system, just sounds too much like DIVX which was a total flop and universally hated as well!
I really don't think I'd ever buy a system where you were reliant on a connection to some companies server to watch anything, just so open to abuse and I'm sure it will lead to pay-per-view titles etc. Plus there's the whole issue of the server eventually being shut down, not being able to watch films if your internet connection goes down or the fact that they could suddenly decide to make certain films unwatchable; new re-re-re-mastered version of Star Wars released? Better make the old versions unplayable to save people from having to sit through an inferior version!
Oh and obviously, imagine the horror of regional coding that actually worked!
Yep, it all sounds like a bit of a knightmare if you ask me.
Can someone please explain the DIVX phenomenon? I am aware of DIVX as a compression codec, and know that some DVD players can play DIVX films, but I was never aware of any phone line - connection with watching films, did I blink and miss something?
AndyWilson
06-09-2005, 14:15
Divx was originally a type of buy-one watch-once DVD that could only be played for a limited amount of time. The player was connected to a phone line which was used to authenticate "purchases" and allowed the user to buy another 48hrs. It was supposed to provide an alternative to rental, without the inconvenience of having to return it. It was universally hated by DVD early adopters and high-profile campaigns by the likes of DVDFile.com and general public indifference saw its demise in 1999, about a year after its launch.
I think the DIVX codec was named as a kind of DVD-geek injoke...
neilalford
06-09-2005, 15:25
Indeed, I still remember the sheer hatred for DIVX on the DVD newsgroups, confused me utterly when the codec first came out and I heard people saying how great DIVX was! Thought the world had gone mad!
Only worry on the blu-ray front is the PS3, if it ships with a blu-ray drive (is this likely or just speculation?) then it's going to mean an awful lot of people in the mainstream audience will end up with blu-ray players by default!
Without the PS3 influence though I can't see it getting anywhere with those sort of restrictions, as obviously hi-def players are initially going to be taken up by the tech-savvy early adopters who generally seem to be against these sort of systems.
Niceguygeoff
06-09-2005, 19:45
The PS3 will use Blu-ray, no doubt about it, and this is clearly the main impetus behind Sony's bullish attitude. They know they will get a huge amount of Blu-ray machines installed in homes by default, given the worldwide popularity of the Playstation brand. They're not gonna back down now, although the consumer will have to jump through several hoops to get the PS3 to act as a bona fide Blu-ray movie player if the DVD playback on the PS2 is anything to go by.
What really bothers me, moreso than the format issue, is all the 'internet authentication' crap that could put an end to the importing of titles, something that my DVD collection is founded on. I don't want to be told that this version is the only one I'm allowed to have; I want the freedom to choose what version I damn well like. This is something that (along with HDMI-only video outputs) could cripple HD on disc, and this authentication has even been hinted at in the HD-DVD specs IIRC.
The studios are hellbent on protecting their movies in the HD age because of the surge in near-pixel-perfect DVD piracy due to the internet, and in a way, I can't blame them. But going as far as revoking our rights to play a certain disc or to even lock out our entire machine is downright draconian. And I'm sure that the irony of using the internet to actually strengthen their rights is not lost on Sony et al.
This all sucks big time, and makes the position of HD-on-disc in the UK even more precarious. DVD in the UK has been built on the huge import market IMO (the surfeit of imports also having the knock-on effect of forcing UK DVD producers to finally get their act together) as well as it's plug-and-play capability and general ease of use. But say you NEED a broadband connection to play HD discs, say you NEED a HDMI-equipped display to view HD discs, say that you're restricted to your piddly little home territory with it's cut movies that can still arrive many months, even years, after their release in their native country; the possible restrictions of these formats could set the course of HD back years in this country.
I would imagine that even the early adopters (and I'm not talking about the millions of chavs who'll get a PS3 to play Tekken 27) are baulking at the prospects laid out before them...
zantarous
06-09-2005, 20:06
I still think it’s a bit premature to be getting to worried this is still up in the air and as the above poster pointed out this is not a Blu-ray only issue HD DVD are implementing a similar draconian policy. There is no way that HD can sustain growth like DVD if such measures are in place the early tech savvy adopter will not buy into it and I feel either these players will die quickly or such a restriction will be lifted.
As forum members have seen from my posts I am very keen on HD but I will not buy into anything that restricts me from watching the version of the movie that I want and I suspect that most people on here feel the same and I imagine that as with DIVX we can fight this with our wallets. Also I really can not see the average Joe going through the hassle of authenticating a movie each time I am sure their attitude would be buy the DVD.
DeadKenny
06-09-2005, 22:50
Though the PS2 can play DVDs, it's not really that big as a DVD player over here (I believe it was in the far east, but not sure if that's still true). Budget £20 DVD players have seen an end to any ambitions in that department and I'm sure budget HD-DVD players will do the same compared to the estimated £300 to £400 sticker for a PS3. Okay they'll drop to maybe £100 many years from now but still you'll end up being able to get a £20 player from Tescos with your shopping. Combined with the fact the PS3 will be illegal to hack and yet a cheap budget HD-DVD will likely come region free out of the box by then, I think HD-DVD would stand more chance of succeeding.
If it came down to it, I would buy HD-DVD despite its inferior technical specs if Blu-Ray go the course with the ridiculous copyright / region coding scheme.
Then again, if HD-DVD adopts it too, im rather stumped, and will probably not buy either format, as most of my DVDs are NTSC.
kiran_mk2
07-09-2005, 00:59
How about importing a player from Australia? I believe they declared that region coding was illegal so all DVD played sold down under have to be multi-region.
All in all, the HD movement isn't going too well is it? No agreement on a hybrid format, BRD drives costing Sony $100 per PS3, the studio split and potential back-lash from Best-Buy, Walmart etc in the US and now, potentially ******* off the early adoptors that make or break a format...
Niceguygeoff
07-09-2005, 12:59
Samsung have hinted (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050906/tc_nm/samsung_dvd_dc) that a dual HD-DVD/Blu-ray machine will be coming from them should a compromise not be reached. The fact that a Blu-ray supporter has looked into creating a hybrid machine points to a format war that cannot be averted at this stage. And once both formats are on the ground, a future adoption of a single format for video content will become that much more difficult because the extant HD-DVD/Blu-ray hardware will become obsolete and require replacing to play the new unified format (the hardware of which will no doubt have to be backward compatible with HD-DVD and Blu-ray software). The early adoptors - and die-hards at that - will not be happy at replacing their prized machines and this will create more bad press for the suppliers of both HD hardware and software.
Should both formats go ahead, the best case scenario is that one dies off quickly, leaving the other to rule the HD kingdom. I've said it before in this thread: I sincerely hope this happens before HD arrives here on disc to avert the mass confusion that this will bring. As an example, I already deal daily (no exaggeration) with people, young and old alike, who think their TV will stop working when Sky bring out HD and I'm bemused by this perception of the HDTV service. Everyone seemed okay with the fact that analogue TV will be turned off in a few years time, and they've been repeatedly told this in the media. And yet, for no reasons that I can fathom, they seem to think that HD is gonna obliterate everything when it arrives next year! :shrug:
Instead of HD heralding a new dawn of UK TV, it's actually made the average consumer fearful of what's coming. But then, I also regularly get people asking me if plasmas have to be regassed, so somehow these silly myths always seem to take hold in society. And, getting back to the topic, two HD disc formats (along with the possible 'internet authentication' snafu) will twist the average UK consumer's brain into many more knots that may prove too difficult to untie.
Grandmaster
07-09-2005, 13:33
The average mass market consumer will not accept having to plumb a jumped-up DVD player into their internet connection. As the vast majority of people are either using 56k modems or USB modems for broadband, the whole notion is frankly preposterous.
neilalford
07-09-2005, 14:26
The average mass market consumer will not accept having to plumb a jumped-up DVD player into their internet connection. As the vast majority of people are either using 56k modems or USB modems for broadband, the whole notion is frankly preposterous.
I believe the number of broadband users now outnumbers the number of dial-up users in the UK so that's not so much of an issue. However it's still a very bad idea for many reasons I mentioned earlier.
Worryingly, the press release posted in a seperate thread about HD-DVD being delayed till 2006 seems to suggest that it will feature exactly the same protection!
Grandmaster
07-09-2005, 19:19
I believe the number of broadband users now outnumbers the number of dial-up users in the UK so that's not so much of an issue. However it's still a very bad idea for many reasons I mentioned earlier.
Worryingly, the press release posted in a seperate thread about HD-DVD being delayed till 2006 seems to suggest that it will feature exactly the same protection!
The point I was trying to make was that 56k modem users combined with broadband users with USB modems far outweighs the amount of people connecting with routers, wireless or otherwise.
They cannot seriously expect someone to connect a cable from their PC to their HD player, set up Internet Connection Sharing, or expect them to set up a WLAN just to watch a movie.
The whole notion of online activation for watching films is frankly laughable.
S1LVERBACK
07-09-2005, 19:26
whats all this talk about blu ray portable players anyway ? i dont see the point in having a high definition player on a 7 inch screen myself,unless there going to do 15 inch laptop size jobs then what would be the point in them?and like what already has been pointed out how would the keep tabs on what you are watching etc.
kiran_mk2
07-09-2005, 22:48
Just think back to all the hassles Half Life 2 had when it came out - it needed an internet connection to "verify" the game. It took a long time on a dial up and was buggered for a couple of days after launch. Now imagine the same thing when any major release occurs. I'm really starting to think that HD may be doomed from the start. The simple fact that there are 2 formats means that both are bending and letting the film studios sodomise them with as many rediculous demands as they can. The fact that major US retail chains are threatening not to stock HD titles seems to have been glossed over. Once again, the mpaa seem to be conveniently forgetting that they loose jack-all money to casual pirates compared to the commercial pirates that have their own pressing plants and will doubtless produces discs that get around the authentication systems.
I think the DIVX codec was named as a kind of DVD-geek injoke...
IIRC correctly the codec was called DIVX;-) (yes with a silly smilie) to be able to differentiate. Nowadays of course, no-one really remembers the original short-lived DIVX so the ;) was dropped
hookbeak
08-09-2005, 14:16
whats all this talk about blu ray portable players anyway ? i dont see the point in having a high definition player on a 7 inch screen myself,unless there going to do 15 inch laptop size jobs then what would be the point in them?
So don't you see a point in portable dvd players either then ? or any kind of portable video device ?
People won't buy the same film on two formats with one to watch on the move and another for their HDTV. So portable blu ray players are essential if the format is to succeed.
The internet-authentication proposal will be the death of whichever HD format(s) choose to use it.
The studios must be extremely short sighted if they think the public will accept these measures.
S1LVERBACK
08-09-2005, 17:21
So don't you see a point in portable dvd players either then ? or any kind of portable video device ?.
yeah i see the point in a SD dvd player there great for night shifts,travelling with brats and can serve a good purpose but the cost of a blu ray portable with a high definition screen will be a waste of time as the screen will be to small to truely benefit from the higher quality video.lets not forget your portable dvd player wont be your main source of dvd watching and is generally used every now and again.
People won't buy the same film on two formats with one to watch on the move and another for their HDTV. So portable blu ray players are essential if the format is to succeed.
maybe you would like to explain why UMD movies are selling out by the thousands then lol ?
Ben Martin
08-09-2005, 17:47
possibly, but that assumes that whatever movie a person has just bought on UMD for their PSP is already in their DVD collection at home.
this could be the case, but with a lack of data either way it is just as likely that no-one has bought a movie yet on UMD that they already own on DVD.
S1LVERBACK
08-09-2005, 17:55
im amazed to say the least that they exaclty shifted any UMD`s in the first place lol.the films arent great and the price isnt cheap either.but back on topic,basically all im saying is having a HD video media on a high defintion SMALL screen is pointless and will cost a bomb.and there is no way in hell i will have big brother SONY watching over my films.
Ben Martin
08-09-2005, 18:06
amen to that.
yes, i wasn't disagreeing with your othe points. just not sure about buying habits of UMD just yet.
zantarous
08-09-2005, 18:41
I have one UMD and it cost me less then £10 and I don't have a copy of it in my DVD collection. UMD is more of a fascination as you are buying the PSP to play games and curiosity got the better of me and the eight hour flight home. Watch a UMD and you will be amazed at the quality it uses some sort of new HD codec which makes them look unbelievable plus as they as they are in full NTSC res and downscaled for the PSP screen there may still be some use for them in the home is Sony can release a cheap home UMD player.
As for portable HD players were portable DVD players cheap when they first arrived? No they were not but that doesn't mean that they did not come down in price eventually.
I for one cannot see the fascination in the PSP.
I only tend to be interested in cutting edge technology and as the PSP is essentially a scaled down PS2 in terms of hardware power, its old tech in my eyes.
S1LVERBACK
08-09-2005, 19:27
I for one cannot see the fascination in the PSP.
I only tend to be interested in cutting edge technology and as the PSP is essentially a scaled down PS2 in terms of hardware power, its old tech in my eyes.
you do know its PORATBLE dont you ? :lol: i think the psp is an absolutely amazing bit of hardware myself.to be able to get those graphics out of a handheld console is nothing short of amazing imho especially considering what other handheld have been offering.
zantarous
08-09-2005, 19:38
you do know its PORATBLE dont you ? :lol: i think the psp is an absolutely amazing bit of hardware myself.to be able to get those graphics out of a handheld console is nothing short of amazing imho especially considering what other handheld have been offering.
Have to agree with that man plus I can watch and DVD that I own on it and play SNES and Megadrive games aswell. Add to that WiFi for internet connection and upto 8 players for some games, don't forget that huge screen, if you don't call that cutting edge I would like to see some of the gadgets you have at home.
DeadKenny
09-09-2005, 10:05
Didn't think the PSP had a DVD player :?:
Thought the whole point of UMD was to fleece the punter as they can't just slap in their existing DVDs or even copy to UMD format, so you have to pay Sony a premium for a disc in their special format. Unlike DVD, every movie has to carry a Sony licence (much like PS2 discs), so whatever the studio, Sony gets a chunk of cash.
No thanks, I'll stick to my portable DVD player thanks for long flights. Great quality and I don't need to buy stupid proprietary formats and re-buy the same films I've already got. Quality is just as good, plus I can play DivX/XviD on my portable as well as any discs I care to burn myself.
As the PSP is an expensive rip-off as a portable movie player, the only thing left is as a games console, and as said it's about 3 or 4 generations out of date (PS3 being next gen, XBox current gen, PS2 is dated, and PSP is worse than that!).
I've read somewhere you can play compressed DVDs straight off the memory stick, so you can rip and watch. Don't know what codec though.
zantarous
09-09-2005, 13:10
Didn't think the PSP had a DVD player :?:
It doesn't but you can convert your DVDs to run of the memory stick,
As the PSP is an expensive rip-off as a portable movie player, the only thing left is as a games console, and as said it's about 3 or 4 generations out of date (PS3 being next gen, XBox current gen, PS2 is dated, and PSP is worse than that!).
You can hardly expect a handheld machine to have the same power as a new next gen console. Playing Ridge Racer on the machine is an amazing experience and I have now just be come completely addicted to Luminess. PSP is a games machine first and all the other stuff is a nice add on.
It may also interest you to know that UMD movie sales are going down a storm at the moment http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/4940/ and I can't find a link at the moment but it took DVD a lot longer to sell that many units although this is getting away from the current topic.
kiran_mk2
11-09-2005, 19:21
If HDDVD or BRD did go belly up after 28 months - how much money do you reckong the backing companies would have wasted - and are they big enough to carry these losses (thinking more about Toshiba/NEC that the BR consortium)?
Spooky_uk
28-09-2005, 12:39
came across this article which doesn't seem to have been mentioned in here yet..Makes interesting reading...
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050927_190208.html
Redmond (WA) - In an exclusive interview with Tom's Hardware Guide, one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee said that decisions regarding whether his company and Intel would back and promote HD DVD as a high-definition video disc standard, were determined only within the last few days. Prior to some critical recent developments and announcements, both companies - which had proclaimed neutrality - may have been ready to back Blu-ray.
"Until now, we viewed ourselves more as a technology provider for both groups," said Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media, and a key developer of the VC-1 codec currently in use by both HD DVD and Blu-ray. He revealed that Microsoft and Intel had produced a list of what he called "key requirements for the success of next-generation DVD." For several months, while those requirements were being circulated, both companies worked on developing key standards to be implemented by both formats. Ribas said he was directly involved with implementing the VC-1 codec, and also worked jointly with Disney to produce the iHD interactive layer considered by both camps, but eventually adopted only by HD DVD (Disney is a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association.) During that time, Intel and Microsoft both maintained their public neutrality. But very recently, from the two companies' perspective, things started unraveling unexpectedly for Blu-ray.
"Our decision is based mainly on where the formats are today," Ribas said, referring to Microsoft. "A year and a half ago, both format organizations had very similar goals, and to some extent, the story of Blu-ray was actually very powerful. It had higher capacity, it had what we would consider benefits at the time. But then as time went on, and we'd seen what's the reality of both formats today, and what were promises versus what's proven and what's real, that's when we decided to make the decision."
Blu-ray failed the Intel/Microsoft test in six critical areas, Ribas told us, referring to a document listing those areas that a Microsoft spokesperson provided to Tom's Hardware Guide:
First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted.
Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element. This would "future-proof" new releases, enabling consumers to buy DVDs that can play in today's players, while also providing high-def content for tomorrow's. "That's something that both promised," said Ribas, "but HD DVD delivered, and Blu-ray has not - and it seems it's nowhere in sight. [Blu-ray has] claimed they have it in the lab, but to go from the lab to mass production is like night and day. There's a lot of effort that needs to happen. So as of now, there's nothing that leads us to believe that that's going to be possible [from Blu-ray] at this point."
Maintaining low production costs is a critical factor, which has been a key HD DVD talking point in light of current revelations about factory upgrade costs for Blu-ray. "For a long time, we actually thought that the Blu-ray Group had the upper hand in costs," Ribas said, mainly because of the involvement in Blu-ray of most of the major Japanese CE manufacturers - Sony, Matsu****a (Panasonic), Pioneer, and Sharp - as well as Philips. Here is where recent events played a critical role: In a development that was brought to light only this morning, two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray. In press statements, these companies cited the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. "Now that we see China embracing HD DVD," said Ribas, "we actually see that on the cost side, HD DVD will have an advantage, because the Chinese have been the ones who have lowered the prices, via the competition, for HD DVD players." As much as 75 percent of DVD players sold in America today come from China, he added.
Maintaining low disc replication costs affects the consumer price for media, said Ribas, which would play into any price/performance evaluation. A disc production factory can make minor upgrades to its equipment, he stated, with the result being equipment that can produce both conventional DVD as well as HD DVD. Citing figures circulating this week throughout the industry, Ribas said it would cost as much as $1.7 million per production line to install Blu-ray disc production equipment, and as much as $2.0 million for each new mastering system installed. That's a significant expense, he explained, for a business which only turns over a 10 percent margin.
The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.
The final entry is interactivity standards. Although Microsoft and Disney jointly developed the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML - which is the glue that holds together the "Vista vision" of Microsoft's future Windows platform - and even though Disney is a Blu-ray proponent, the Association chose instead to endorse BDJ, an implementation of Sun-s Java Mobile Edition. Ribas told us that the major studios - either publicly or quietly - are opposed to BDJ, citing its relative complexity and its lack of compelling new features compared to iHD. An optional commentary track for videos, for example, that superimposes the speaker's image on-screen as well as providing audio, is one key iHD feature that BDJ will support only as an option, maybe. "Which means nobody will use it," said Ribas.
"Intel was looking at similar issues," said Ribas, "and [we] realized, 'We are getting very close to getting these things into the market, we have to stop hoping or expecting or believing promises. We have to look at what's real and what's not.' That's where our decision came from."
Ribas told us more about his and his company's expectations for the future of video disc technologies and interactive media in general. Stay in touch with Tom's Hardware Guide for more of our interview this afternoon with Microsoft's Jordi Ribas.
Tom's Hardware Guide has contacted the Blu-ray Disc Association early Tuesday for comment on today's developments. So far, the organization has not responded to our inquiries.
Grandmaster
28-09-2005, 12:47
Interesting stuff - I've been doing a number of test encodes this week at 720p and the Microsoft codec produces astonishing levels of compression.
I reckon you could easily get 45 minutes of HD footage at a pretty extreme quality level onto a 4.3GB single layer DVD. The whole 'more capacity is better' argument truly is a nonsense.
DeadKenny
28-09-2005, 12:52
BBC's take on it...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4285894.stm
Though I thought Intel & Microsoft were already known to be backing HD-DVD?
This is for storage though and doesn't necessarily mean it will dictate what happens for consumer video, but if Blu-Ray was picked for video and Intel/MS went with HD-DVD, there would be a major problem if PCs generally couldn't read Blu-Ray discs. The solution there is to make hybrid drives for PCs that will play both format... same as with DVD +/-/R/RW/RAM drives which most pretty much play everything now so you don't really need to worry about the format. That may indeed be the solution for consumer video as well.
Interesting bit from the Tom's Hardware article...
The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.
kiran_mk2
28-09-2005, 13:18
hmm - it seems Sony may once again be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. They had a significant advantage in terms of storage space and company backing, but Sony's fascist attitude to copy protection seems to be scaring off customers and apparently Microsoft as well. It's deffinitely going to be a wait and see game. What I'm not looking forward to are these hybrid launches - if 1 layer is given over to SD then the HD won't be upto standard so the first generation of discs will be crap.
Ben Martin
28-09-2005, 13:28
Interesting bit from the Tom's Hardware article...indeed. very interesting. though in hindsight (and bearing in mind there has been no comeback from the BDA yet), why would we be at all surprised that information from sony's marketing department turns out to be total BS? "emotion engine" anyone? dual panels at 1080p each, both driven by one PS3?!
don't get me wrong. sony make some excellent kit, and i expect both Blu-ray and the PS3 to be great, but their tendency to lead consumers up the garden path about better technology and/or consumer experiences, while at the same time introducing "unfriendly" alternatives to popular and successful technology, or taking over said techology by locking down its use on their hardware, is sickening.
this is intended to be neither a pro-HDDVD post, nor an anti-Bluray one, as i'm remaining neutral on the format war. though to be honest, i'm on the verge of losing interest completely in HD on disc because of the über-draconian copy protection measures that both formats plan to impose. at least the info above assuages that fear a little as far as HD-DVD goes.
The appearance of new hardware technology is usually greeted by consumers with awe and anticipation, it seems all the HD formats are doing for the consumer is filling them with worry and trepidation.
am1001aa
02-10-2005, 23:04
Possible the beginning the end of the format war (before it really started!)
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6262261.html
Paramount embraces Blu-ray
Warner expected to make similar move this week
By Scott Hettrick 10/2/2005
OCT. 2 | In a stunning announcement Sunday morning, Paramount Home Entertainment has decided to support Sony's Blu-ray Disc format for the next-generation of high-definition DVDs.
Although Paramount will continue to support Sony's rival, the HD DVD platform from Toshiba, the studio is the first to end its singular commitment to one format, which both sides had hoped would give the industry its best chance of avoiding a Betamax/VHS-like format war.
With Warner and Universal expected to follow suit very shortly, Paramount's decision potentially throws the decision once again into the hands of consumers and retailers next year. Both formats are expected to be introduced next spring.
Thomas Lesinski, Paramount Pictures president of worldwide home entertainment, one of the staunchest supporters of HD DVD, said in a statement Sunday that the studio will release movies on Blu-ray in North America, Japan and Europe as soon as Blu-ray hardware launches in those markets.
"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-Ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-Ray in PlayStation 3," Lesinski said in a statement. "After more detailed assessment and new data on cost, manufacturability and copy protection solutions, we have now made the decision to move ahead with the Blu-ray format. We believe the unique portfolio of Viacom content coupled with this format will provide great benefit for consumers and our shareholders alike."
A format war is precisely what studios, hardware manufacturers, retailers and consumers desperately want to avoid. The introduction of two incompatible formats has the potential to cause a much slower adoption of a new format for their movies, games, music and other programming, as consumers hesitate to pick one for fear of selecting the next Betamax that quickly will be obsolete. Studios and hardware manufacturers managed to find a compromise solution on DVD, which led to the introduction of the most successful consumer electronics product ever.
With the DVD market rapidly maturing and slowing to single-digit growth rates, media companies, which derive most of their studio revenue and profits from DVD, are pressuring their home video and consumer electronics units to get the next-gen format into the market as quickly as possible, whichever one it is, in order to rejuvenate sales of their vast libraries of TV, movie and music programming on discs.
"All we're doing is guaranteeing a format war," said a top exec at one studio DVD division about the Paramount announcement.
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment president Ben Feingold said that while the Paramount announcement is very important to the Blu-ray camp, "being on both formats will confuse the consumer."
Several execs in each camp believe the Paramount announcement to publish in both formats—which is the direction Warner has been leaning for the past week or two with a similar announcement expected this week—is simply a temporary face-saving strategy and that ultimately all studios will shift completely over to Blu-ray by launch time.
"Launching with a single format is the only way to get back quickly to double-digit compound growth," Feingold said.
Universal would not comment, but if Warner does announce that it also will publish in both formats, Universal is expected to be pressured to reluctantly follow suit.
Warner's softening position was believed to be what motivated Microsoft and Intel to announce support of HD DVD last week.
But many said at the time that announcement was too little, too late.
A big setback for HD DVD was the delay of the launch of its HD DVD players from this holiday season until sometime next year. Blu-ray has always set mid-2006 as its launch date, most likely with the launch of Sony's PlayStation 3 videogame system, which will incorporate Blu-ray. Microsoft will not commit to including HD DVD in its next-gen Xbox 360 system.
In fact, the PlayStation 3 factor—Sony will not be swayed from introducing Blu-ray as the format is locked as a component in millions of PS3 machines next spring—is believed to be what has turned Paramount and Warner around in their thinking.
And major hardware companies including Sony, Samsung and Panasonic are expected to announce shortly that they will have Blu-ray players in the market by next spring, regardless of when the PS3 systems are launched.
WHV is believed to be under great pressure from parent Time Warner, which has its own pressures relative to the recent stock performance challenges by Carl Icahn, to do whatever it takes to get a high-def disc to market at the earliest possible time in order to rejuvenate the maturing DVD market.
Sources say Paramount was prompted to action by the imminent announcement of Warner.
Although it would be a little more expensive to release movies authored and inventoried in two different formats, it's something the studios have done before with Betamax and VHS and even laserdisc and 8mm, in some cases. And it's something the videogame industry has become used to.
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am1001aa
02-10-2005, 23:06
and the double whammy of
"With Warner and Universal expected to follow suit very shortly"
How much studio support for Bluray - and how much for HD-DVD. Overall is 2:1 by now? That may be enough to end the format war and for Bluray to be declared the winner by default.
Game over?
zantarous
02-10-2005, 23:15
That really was unexpected never did I think WB would sign on to release movies in Blu-ray, is that now all the major studios?
DeadKenny
03-10-2005, 00:04
The real decider will be made by the porn industry :D
Oh well, if Blu-Ray it is, it just means high prices for the consumer and proprietary stuff from Sony who like to keep everything close to their chest (e.g. just take a look at how difficult it is to get a PS2 disc made thanks to Sony's licencing) :oh-hum:. Of course it will help a lot in preventing piracy which is probably why the studios are interested, but then a lot of independents will be unable to afford to master a BD disc probably because of the amount of money they need to hand over to Sony just to licence the mastering equipment. ;)
i'd go for a blu-ray drive just for the amount of storage space i would have, but there is no chance i'll go for it with the internet connection junk that you have to have just to play a freaking disk!
i would rather stick with TS off the net than pay through the nose for that
thxsound 3417
03-10-2005, 01:26
Holy cow there’s a lot of talk going on hear..
Hay we had the best TV Pal 625 for years and they’ve been stuck with NTSC 525 “Never Twice the Same Colour”
So I can wait for HD-TV I’m not going to lose any sleep over it at all…
Bon voyage all….
Ben Martin
03-10-2005, 11:20
Of course it will help a lot in preventing piracy which is probably why the studios are interested...yes, but probably not professional piracy. it might take them longer to work around it than it otherwise would have done, but they'll get there. there is already talk of crackers who normally see themselves as above hacking home electronics and pc hardware getting involved due to the increased level of the challenge (same goes for all the new anti-"piracy" measures in Vista). it's only us consumers, merely the industry's bread and butter, who will be made to suffer ... it's our lot in life! :)
Bill Hunt's comments on this issue from thedigitalbits.com last month are worth revisiting: Look... the need for Hollywood to protect its film and TV content from PROFESSIONAL video pirates is undeniable, particularly as better and better quality video is encoded on the discs. But what about your average, well-meaning consumer? Just how intrusive are these measures going to be on the fair use of that content by the rest of us... those of us who AREN'T criminals? That remains to be seen. Also yet to be seen is how willing the studios and manufacturers are going to be to offer consumers guarantees and protections against the excessive or unwarranted use of these copy-protection measures. It's worth being concerned about, lest these new formats turn out to be just another version of Circuit City's Divx, where the industry has as much control over your players and discs as YOU do, even after you've opened your wallets and purchased them. The last thing WE want is yet another scheme where players monitor our viewing habits and report them back to the studios, and where we end up having to rent DVDs from our own purchased collections. Or worse, a system where some of your movie discs (if their encryption keys have been hacked by pirates) can be revoked without your knowledge, so they no longer play normally. In other words, discs you've already paid for and legally own can be made coasters, with no guarantee of replacement, all though no fault of your own. You can bet we'll be watching this issue closely in the months ahead.
Ben Martin
03-10-2005, 11:24
i'd go for a blu-ray drive just for the amount of storage space i would have, but there is no chance i'll go for it with the internet connection junk that you have to have just to play a freaking disk!me too. though if microsoft and intel are correct in their statements from last week (still no reposte from the BDA to my knowledge?) then HD-DVD is going to have the superior storage capacity, at least for a while. what use is a theoretical 50GB Blu-ray disc that no-one can buy, when 30GB HD-DVD discs are available?
obviously, if this turns out to be not entirely true and/or the extra wait for the 50GB Blu-ray disc isn't that long after the 30GB HD-DVD disc is available then it's a moot point.
DeadKenny
03-10-2005, 11:34
me too. though if microsoft and intel are correct in their statements from last week (still no reposte from the BDA to my knowledge?) then HD-DVD is going to have the superior storage capacity, at least for a while. what use is a theoretical 50GB Blu-ray disc that no-one can buy, when 30GB HD-DVD discs are available?
obviously, if this turns out to be not entirely true and/or the extra wait for the 50GB Blu-ray disc isn't that long after the 30GB HD-DVD disc is available then it's a moot point.
Blu-Ray camp hit back over Wintel's claims...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/dell_hp_vs_ms_intel/
Although they do have a point that they were comparing dual-layer HD-DVD with single layer Blu-Ray, but MS/Intel's claims were also valid in saying that Blu-Ray is a long way off from delivering on dual-layer (on a mass scale) Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is ready now. That was their point and they clearly stated that.
Whichever wins my main concern is over cost and excessive DRM measures.
If I was investing money in it, and no studios were involved, I would at this stage back HD-DVD based on what I've been hearing about Blu-Ray's intentions and the sheer costs involved in production. However with most the studios backing Blu-Ray it would be daft to back HD-DVD now except maybe as a storage media that might work in dual-format drives (e.g. like DVD +/-R).
My bet is on a £39.99 average for a Blu-Ray release, with prices not likely to drop for years.
Ben Martin
03-10-2005, 11:41
yep. have to agree with that sadly. and thanks for the link. interesting, because although ms/intel indeed didn't specify that the comparison was dual-layer versus single-layer, it highlighted the point that it's what you can actually bring to market at any given moment that counts. who cares how many layers a disc has if one has greater capacity than the other? i'm going to enjoy using that 50GB disc when i'm next in one of sony's labs! but if they can get that out at the same time as the 30GB HD-DVD disc, or very soon afterwards, then fair enough.
DK_UK - that article was posted near the bottom of the previous page, hence this last round of discussion! :)
thxsound 3417
03-10-2005, 11:46
Sounds like the ole Laserdisc days, the price man, the price…..at £39.99.
I smell a RAT…..at that price… :wave:
thescrounger
03-10-2005, 12:09
At this rate both formats will cancel each other out, as the public declare normal DVD the winner.
Ben Martin
03-10-2005, 12:25
well said that man! :thumbs:
never thought i'd be so impressed by one of the scrounger's super-short and to the point posts! ;)
seriously though, it's extremely disappointing to find myself now hoping for the quick, and painful (for the technology providers and studios) death of something that i had previously been looking immensely forward to for years. :(
Grandmaster
03-10-2005, 13:06
yes, but probably not professional piracy. it might take them longer to work around it than it otherwise would have done, but they'll get there.
I've already explained how a professional pirate will produce counterfeit HD disks. Either take a feed from analogue component and re-author the disk, or else capture the digital RGB connection to a native resolution HD panel after the HDCP has been decoded, then re-author.
My HD capture set-up could do the former and I guarantee you that the human eye cannot tell the difference between analogue and digital. I've already done side-by-side comparisons between analogue and DVI captures and there's nothing in it. The digital RGB capture method would be a bit tougher - and a bit beyond my feeble skills - but is definitely doable.
All the DRM will do is drive people who want to pirate to internet downloads derived from sources who've performed the above, most likely re-encoding into HD-DivX or HD-WMV, played back on a media PC. You won't even need the player. If software is inordinately expensive, it will merely encourage pirates all the more. As usual the normal punter will be the main loser.
yep, i cant tell the diff between hdmi/dvi from my PC to my projector versus VGA
no diff at all afaik - and that's on a 106" screen
Ben Martin
03-10-2005, 13:28
All the DRM will do is drive people who want to pirate to internet downloads derived from sources who've performed the above, most likely re-encoding into HD-DivX or HD-WMV, played back on a media PC. You won't even need the player. If software is inordinately expensive, it will merely encourage pirates all the more. As usual the normal punter will be the main loser.exactly. and some people might therefore ask why the technology providers and the studios would be happy with such a situation. imho, for all intents and purposes they don't really care about "professional pirates" because they'll only ever catch a few of them and the studios/consumer-electronics companies are making a ton of money regardless.
far more important is the 100% profit, free revenue stream available by terrorising children, their non-techy parents and various other soft targets. what a great scam: sell the same number of legit copies you would have done anyway at 10% profit margins (or whatever), but sting thousands of innocent people - most if not all of whom wouldn't have bought your product anyway (some of whom because they have no money of their own!) - for 100% profit margins! and governments and law enforcement agencies will not only back you up but do some of your dirty work for you!! woo-hoo!!!
that is a simplification, as they might get the odd person linked to piracy with that approach, but for the most part it is a crime against the very public they rely on for their business.
Spooky_uk
04-10-2005, 16:27
At this rate both formats will cancel each other out, as the public declare normal DVD the winner.
that is unavoidable now I'm afraid. mass market will stick with standard dvd for another 10 years at least. in their rush for profits both the studios and hardware manufs will consign hidef to the scrap heap.
way to go :|
pjclark1
04-10-2005, 20:11
I've already explained how a professional pirate will produce counterfeit HD disks. Either take a feed from analogue component and re-author the disk, or else capture the digital RGB connection to a native resolution HD panel after the HDCP has been decoded, then re-author.
Not many will do it that way. An HDCP to DVI dongle removes the digital protection and you can just record the digital output. These can already be purchased for £200 and the price will soon drop.
At this rate both formats will cancel each other out, as the public declare normal DVD the winner.
I'm sure I said that on about page 5 of this thread :**
Warner Bros. indicates it will use both Blu-ray and HD-DVD formats...
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200510070201.html
DeadKenny
07-10-2005, 19:48
Well I think it was always going to be the case that some studios would release on dual formats for a while if nothing's been resolved.
All that means is it's not worth bothering with HD until the war is over, and it aint over yet. Though as I've said before, if the players are all dual-format it really becomes a non-issue for the consumer (except if one format uses Internet based DRM and the other doesn't).
kiran_mk2
08-10-2005, 11:29
I think this is worse than studios sticking to one format - that way universal players would allow both formats to live side by side and it wouldn't make much difference to Joe Public. Now though, there's a real danger of another betamax if the studios suddenly decide to drop support for one standard.
thescrounger
08-10-2005, 11:31
With movie studios backing both formats, it really will be a case of sit back and wait for a winner. Of course if everybody does that, neither format will have made enough money to survive.
A lesson to be learned in The Twilight Zone.
DeadKenny
08-10-2005, 12:43
We're still waiting for the outcome of the DVD-A and SACD war... only to find they're both losers, though still clinging on as a niche market format (like Laserdisc).
thescrounger
10-10-2005, 20:16
One thing that concerns me (with either format) is the ability to play imported movies. Generally I prefer not to have a speedup issue, so I'd prefer to import.
Ben Martin
10-10-2005, 21:03
not entirely sure, but i thought that HD was just going to be HD, with there being no difference in picture systems this time around? i'm sure DeadKenny knows the answer.
as for importing, some interesting news (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=15223) that HD-DVD might not be region-coded.
DeadKenny
10-10-2005, 21:06
Whereas I prefer the speedup over the 3:2 pulldown, but then I still import because of the need to get a better version than the UK version sometimes, so often means R4 for good PAL versions, and then other times I resort to R1 where I have no other choice for best version.
Sadly the region protection will still exist as the studios run a protection racket (against international and certainly EU trade laws), to protect their interests in each region in an anti-competitive and anti-consumer manner. New copy protection systems will mean new methods of blocking imports. The T2 HD version on DVD is an early example of this where you needed a US ISP account to even play the damn thing.
:oh-hum:
not entirely sure, but i thought that HD was just going to be HD, with there being no difference in picture systems this time around? i'm sure DeadKenny knows the answer.
I don't know for sure :D... but from what I've been reading they do come in both 50Hz and 60Hz formats and will still have the same issue of conversion from 24fps.
e.g. 720p/60 for US and 720p/50 for UK.
A missed opportunity for sure if they haven't settled on a uniform format.
Then again, the progressive formats are easier to play at 24fps regardless of the original (WinDVD does this on PCs). The only problem is if they do pitch correction on the 50Hz formats where there is normally a speed up. Pitch corrected audio is near impossible to fix back to the original speed. Where it's speeded up it's simple to just slow it down again.
thescrounger
10-10-2005, 23:11
Whereas I prefer the speedup over the 3:2 pulldown, but then I still import because of the need to get a better version than the UK version sometimes, so often means R4 for good PAL versions, and then other times I resort to R1 where I have no other choice for best version.
Sadly the region protection will still exist as the studios run a protection racket (against international and certainly EU trade laws), to protect their interests in each region in an anti-competitive and anti-consumer manner. New copy protection systems will mean new methods of blocking imports. The T2 HD version on DVD is an early example of this where you needed a US ISP account to even play the damn thing.
:oh-hum:
.
This could be a bad thing. What got many of us into DVD in the first place was importing Discs. A film might be cut by the BBFC and you want the overseas uncut version, or whatever.
Martin Ball
13-10-2005, 09:04
The only way I will consider upgrading to blu-ray will be:
a) You can still get multi-regional machines unless they scrap the whole regional coding as it's pretty usuless at the moment (until the studios wake up and release similar quality products in all regions at similar prices therefore virtually eliminating the need to import except when the BBFC interfere)
b) When you buy a disc - it's yours - you can play it whenever you like. This means NO internet connection - ever. (How many people have a telephone socket near their TV at the moment anyway?)
c) when the price of HD displays come down to an acceptable level (I don't believe that initial players will be that expensive - it's just the displays that will cost the earth)
Bill Gates isn't too happy about Blu-Ray
"Gates: Well, the key issue here is that the protection scheme under Blu-ray is very anti-consumer and there's not much visibility of that. The inconvenience is that the [movie] studios got too much protection at the expense consumers [sic] and it won't work well on PCs. You won't be able to play movies and do software in a flexible way.
It's not the physical format that we have the issue with, it's that the protection scheme on Blu is very anti-consumer. If [the Blu-ray group] would fix that one thing, you know, that'd be fine."
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051017-5445.html
DeadKenny
18-10-2005, 12:45
And for an existing example, just look at SACD.
Spooky_uk
21-10-2005, 09:13
Bill Gates isn't too happy about Blu-Ray
"Gates: Well, the key issue here is that the protection scheme under Blu-ray is very anti-consumer and there's not much visibility of that. The inconvenience is that the [movie] studios got too much protection at the expense consumers [sic] and it won't work well on PCs. You won't be able to play movies and do software in a flexible way.
It's not the physical format that we have the issue with, it's that the protection scheme on Blu is very anti-consumer. If [the Blu-ray group] would fix that one thing, you know, that'd be fine."
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051017-5445.html
I think Bill has hit the nail on the head there (the OTT protection is the turn off for me).
Spooky_uk
21-10-2005, 09:14
Wartner Bros goes both ways too now..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4362906.stm
But have they lost HP?
http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/10/20/did_hp_announcement_stall_warner_bros/index.html
I think Bill has hit the nail on the head there (the OTT protection is the turn off for me).
The Manditory mangaged copy requirement? Well it might be nice but I can see why studios don't want it and I can't see myself paying for the privelage of being able to copy something I already own. I believe that BR is willing to let studios decide and I think that's very reasonable rather than OTT!!
The HP thing is probably the best thing that's happened to HD-DVD in a year and it's not even that good, that's how bad things are going for them. Lets not forget that Universal are also non-exclusivly commited to HD-DVD so they also could support both but even if they didn't you'd have to be crazy to consider HD-DVD
DeadKenny
21-10-2005, 17:18
The Manditory mangaged copy requirement? Well it might be nice but I can see why studios don't want it and I can't see myself paying for the privelage of being able to copy something I already own. I believe that BR is willing to let studios decide and I think that's very reasonable rather than OTT!!
But when BR is essentially Sony, and Sony are very heavily into copy protection, I can't see them letting studios opt out, especially when Sony will require everyone has an expensive licence from them to even produce a disc.
Funny enough, many people claim the PS3 will be the driving force behind BR, and yet if you look at how Sony control PS2 format discs and how few companies can actually afford to master a proper PS2 disc, it's a wonder if there will be many PS3 titles especially if the equipment is in short supply initially. I can't see just the presence of a BR player in the thing actually driving BR production when Sony put up so many obstacles.
DeadKenny
03-11-2005, 11:40
Well if Sony are going to apply this kind of DRM to Blu-Ray, they can shove their discs no matter how good they may be...
http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.html
:eek:
Spooky_uk
03-11-2005, 11:59
I think they will try. :|
shand754
29-03-2006, 11:50
I notice Digital Bit has the technical grids from the back of the first HD DVD titles here: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
The video is listed as 1080p High Definition. I have a Panasonic PV500 and I believe the native resolution is 720p, am I right that the plasma would automatically downscale the 1080p image to 720p?
Grandmaster
05-04-2006, 07:23
Perhaps, but what is more likely is that on the HD DVD player itself, you would select 720p on the settings menu and the player itself would carry out the scaling.
I doubt there'd be too much difference between the player doing it and the screen doing it however; rescaling a progressive scan image is far, far easier than an interlaced one - but the player would most likely do a slightly better job.
I think they will try. :|
They will only be able to put it on their own discs if they even wanted to. It's pretty unlikely given the protection already in place.
BTW, shouldn't this thread be in the other forum and/or closed?
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