The Manchester United Thread

[sexy244486]

After watching all the game on foreign TV, Fletcher was truly awful, can't cross, can't pass and if I remember correctly at fault for two goals, lost the ball once which led to Rooney getting a corner and gave a free kick away, both resulting in goals.

Ronaldo was excellent for the few mins he was on, each game he is getting better imo, never seen anything in O'Shea his passing is horrendous, and defending isn't much better.

Brown : don't get me started on Brown, like Fletcher doesn't deserve to play, get G. Neville in the middle and Phil at right back I say.

With Ole back Fletcher should be banished to the reserves with Ronaldo and Kleberson ahead of him from now on.

[Just Call Me Wanda]

News Of The World report:

Joaquin to Utd in 14 mill summer move.

[evilsly]

what's the betting cuddly pete is faxing off a 20 million offer to betis at the moment .......

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by evilsly
what's the betting cuddly pete is faxing off a 20 million offer to betis at the moment .......

Interesting also recently Kenyon saying he would LOVE to see Beckham in a Chelsea shirt!!! Remember all the crap he came out with at the time saying it was excellent business for the club for a 28 year old etc............:mad:

[HBK757]

Joaquin for £14m? :lol:

Try £24m, and that's the opening bid, otherwise Betis will be ripping themselves off bigtime.

[Just Call Me Wanda]

It'll be interesting to see how the defence stands up in the next couple of games - in theory, we should keep clean sheets against Middlesborough and Leeds.

[sexy244486]

Should and will are completely different, Brown should be able to defend but he can't ;)

[Pisces Iscariot]

Originally posted by Listy
Mark Howard is a good young defender, he really should be ahead of Bardsley in the pecking order.
Seen as Bardsley got sent off today for Antwerp I'd guess Howard is ahead of him now. ;)

[R.Sole]

Originally posted by sexy244486
Brown : don't get me started on Brown, like Fletcher doesn't deserve to play, get G. Neville in the middle and Phil at right back I say.

I totally agree about Wes Brown, well said

Fletcher has got quality and a cool (but rather ugly) head but too inconsistant at moment

I was at the Southampton game last week and Ruud was giving Ronaldo earache all game telling him to just cross the ball and yesterday voila...nice to see he's learning

[ryonhilluk]

Originally posted by HBK757
Joaquin for £14m? :lol:

Try £24m, and that's the opening bid, otherwise Betis will be ripping themselves off bigtime.

Well i think they can get him for a lot less than £24m but a bit more than £14m.


So thats Miller, Robben and possibly Trabelsi and Joaquin in.


Joaquin scored the winner in the last minute for Betis today.

[madstu]

Originally posted by ryonhilluk
Well i think they can get him for a lot less than £24m but a bit more than £14m.


So thats Miller, Robben and possibly Trabelsi and Joaquin in.


Joaquin scored the winner in the last minute for Betis today.

Miller = Free
Robben = £10-£14m?
Trabelsi = i thought he was out of contract this summer? otherwise £5m?
Joaquin = £16-18m

Thats quite an outlay, not sure whether Utd have that sort of cash hanging around, mind you we might say goodbye to:

Butt = £5.5m
Forlan = £4m
Barthez = £1m
Ricardo = £1m

So maybe it would be a net spend of £20m or so, which would not be too bad, considering Utd spent

Saha = £12.8m
Howard = £2.3m
Djemba X 2 = £3.5m
Ronaldo = £12.25m
Bellion = £1m
Kleberson = £7.5m
But got back

Beckham = £24m
Veron = £14m

which is net -£1.5m (ish)

If that came off Utd would have a brilliant young team.

[Citysmith]

Forlan = £4m :cuckoo:

Who, then again maybe Boro :p

[madstu]

Originally posted by Citysmith
Forlan = £4m :cuckoo:

Who, then again maybe Boro :p

yeah probably if they were going to buy Heskey for £5m, and they bought Rickets for over £3m, mind you he's probably got more goals than Fowler - so maybe City would want to improve their front line:suspect:

[ryonhilluk]

Can anyone read the story in the following link and then work out how on earth they came up with the headline?

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/article.asp?id=185317&cpid=23

[evilsly]

united could easily spend 25-30 million on players in the summer without the need for big sales.

I don't remember sales needed to fund the signings of ferdinand, veron or ruud. sales were made in the aftermath, because the players going weren't good enough for United any more. With the exception of becks, who was simply an exceptional player, can anyone remember the last first team player who left united that has got better since leaving ?

[Torf]

Anyone else think that Man Utd might be talking to okocha? In some of his recent interviews, he's been pretty cagey when asked about his contract. Is it 'legal' for other teams to approach someone in the last sixth months of his contract? Of course, it could be any of the big clubs in the premier league, but it definitely looks like he'll stay in England.

Either way, from his recent interviews, I reckon Bolton will do well to hang on to him.

[evilsly]

Okocha is absolutely class, BUT he's very much not the type of player united are going for in terms of age profile.

[madstu]

Originally posted by evilsly
united could easily spend 25-30 million on players in the summer without the need for big sales.

I don't remember sales needed to fund the signings of ferdinand, veron or ruud. sales were made in the aftermath, because the players going weren't good enough for United any more. With the exception of becks, who was simply an exceptional player, can anyone remember the last first team player who left united that has got better since leaving ?


Tiabe (Sp)
Dublin
Stam (?)
Poborsky

can't think of many recent ones.

But Utd could afford Ferdinand, because they sold Stam.

Man Utd are a PLC and they need to balance the books, they do not have the unlimited spending power of the likes of Chelsea - they will not overspend, if Utd brought in 4/5 players in the summer, then no doubt players would have to go because the squad would be too big.

[madstu]

Originally posted by evilsly
Okocha is absolutely class, BUT he's very much not the type of player united are going for in terms of age profile.

but Fergie brought in Blanc, and was prepared to bring in Di Canio, so I could see it happening as he is on a Bosman, not quite sure where he would play though?

[evilsly]

I agree that players will go in the summer, but more due to balancing the squad size, rather than the balance sheets. Tiabi (sp again) never really got a chance at united, same with Dion Dublin (who knows what would have happened but for a broken leg). Stam, has if anything gone backwards since that majestic 98-99 season. One of my favourite images of that mighty treble, was Zamarano 'bouncing' off Stam when he tried to muscle him at a set piece, in the united vs inter match at OT. Poborksy probably wouldn't have gone if he had been an EU player.

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by evilsly
I agree that players will go in the summer, but more due to balancing the squad size, rather than the balance sheets. Tiabi (sp again) never really got a chance at united, same with Dion Dublin (who knows what would have happened but for a broken leg). Stam, has if anything gone backwards since that majestic 98-99 season. One of my favourite images of that mighty treble, was Zamarano 'bouncing' off Stam when he tried to muscle him at a set piece, in the united vs inter match at OT. Poborksy probably wouldn't have gone if he had been an EU player.

If it wasn't for Dublins broken leg, we may never have signed Eric.

[Crikey!]

Originally posted by barcelona26051999
If it wasn't for Dublins broken leg, we may never have signed Eric.

he could just have put a boot on the end of his other (alleged) leg :nuts:

[richdmx]

Man U's bid for Robben Stalls.

http://www.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,7-1122769,00.html

[suicidedd]

€7 million is a derisory offer. Hopefully we won't lose out on him.

[HBK757]

£4.5m for Robben? Sheesh, Utd really have got some cheek. He's worth £10m no problem.

[SteM]

Yeah, well you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If United put in an offer that people think is to high they get slated for it, to low and they get slated for it.

€7 mill is an opening offer, we'll end up getting him for €12 or €13 I think and he'd be well worth that from what I've seen.

[madstu]

Originally posted by SteM
Yeah, well you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If United put in an offer that people think is to high they get slated for it, to low and they get slated for it.

€7 mill is an opening offer, we'll end up getting him for €12 or €13 I think and he'd be well worth that from what I've seen.

exactly, the boy can't be signed for another 6 months, no negotiations will be ongoing. PSV obviously want as much as they can get, and Utd want him on the cheap.

He wants to come to Utd, and Utd want him - i am confident it will be sorted out.

[ryonhilluk]

I thought it was very funny that the BBC claimed that his dad was blaming the two clubs for not transfering him during the last transfer window.

Especially when they had quotes only a couple of weeks ago from his dad saying it was always going to be a summer transfer.

Is Gilligan still working for them? :lol:



Watched the Eurogoals on Eurosport this morning and Robben had a good game against Ajax.

[Adam Thirnis]

Irish businessmen John Magnier and JP McManus have bought a further tranche of shares in Manchester United football club.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3479517.stm

I have a feeling that the glory years will soon come to an end :(

[fattyboombatty]

Originally posted by Adam Thirnis
Irish businessmen John Magnier and JP McManus have bought a further tranche of shares in Manchester United football club.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3479517.stm

I have a feeling that the glory years will soon come to an end :(

is there even a way out of this nightmare, now? if fergie drops his legal case they'll still force him out:oh-hum:

rich men and their petty squabbles:mad:

[Grandmaster]

No comment about last night's game? First Wolves beat Manchester United, and now a Middlesbrough team that the Arsenal First XI always seem to get four goals past in recent times.

I didn't see the Middlesbrough tie, but from what I've seen recently Manchester United are as brilliant as ever on the attack, but the defence seems to be lapsing pretty poorly. I wonder if this result will be the catalyst for change?

I'm really enjoying this season. Arsenal never lose but draw a few too many games, keeping Manchester United and Chelsea within spitting distance. Unexpected results like last night add to the spice of what has been a great season so far for the impartial observer.

[ICEM@N]

Originally posted by Grandmaster
No comment about last night's game? First Wolves beat Manchester United, and now a Middlesbrough team that the Arsenal First XI always seem to get four goals past in recent times.


your surprised?.

[cabor]

Originally posted by fattyboombatty
is there even a way out of this nightmare, now? if fergie drops his legal case they'll still force him out:oh-hum:

rich men and their petty squabbles:mad:


Those Cork people never back down :D

[barcelona26051999]

"Oh Hello Middlesbrough. Here, have the ball, no don't mind me, you just keep running towards our goal, I won't try to tackle, and neither will any of my team mates. Just make sure whenever we have the ball, you get three players to challenge for every ball so we can't do anything with it."

I heard this was said to a Boro player last night just after kick off, any truth?

[suicidedd]

Just been watching Granada and a spokesman for an investment company said that according to what they're hearing from Magnier and McManus they are prepared to sell their shares to Malcolm Glazer....

[jayok]

If they sell them to Glazer, he would have to put a bid in to take all shares theeby Man Utd would be owned by one person

Although this will be at odds to everything in the media

Race tycoons close in on United

MAGNIER and JP McManus yesterday moved a significant step closer to taking real charge of Manchester United when they increased their stake in the club to 28.89pc.

The racing tycoons paid £20.8m to buy 8m shares, equating to just over 3pc of the club from the Dutch media magnate, John de Mol. Their shareholding now stands within easy striking distance of the 30pc holding that would automatically trigger a takeover offer.

Significantly, Cubic Expression, Magnier and McManus's investment vehicle, was offered the chance to buy de Mol's entire holding of 11m shares. With small packages of other shares available to Cubic on Tuesday, the 30pc level needed to trigger a takeover could have been reached then.

Cubic declined the opportunity, preferring, for the moment, to work towards reconciliation with the United board and towards a greater day-to-day say in the club without having to buy it outright.

It is understood that Cubic will now actively seek two or three seats on the board. The request could come at any stage within the next couple of months. United, not least the chairman Sir Roy Gardner and the chief executive, David Gill, will shortly enter talks to discuss the matter.

"We listen to all our shareholders and discuss any issues that concern them," said a source close to the club.

At the moment, Magnier and McManus have no effective power at Old Trafford. Their campaign for greater transparency to the way the club has been run has borne some fruit.

United have undertaken an internal investigation into recent transfer dealings and also bowed to pressure not to give Alex Ferguson and long-term extension to his management contract. But Cubic still has no say in everyday decisions about policy, spending or expansion of the business.

If Magnier and McManus gain seats on the board, for hand-picked representatives if not themselves, all that will change.

Three Cubic directors would give the racing tycoons significant clout on everything from transfers to the appointment and sacking of managers. Two directors, a more realistic target, would have not much less sway and powerful veto rights.

The outlook for Ferguson can only be guessed at. While he and Magnier remain embroiled in their bitter dispute over the stud rights to the racehorse Rock of Gibraltar, his long-term position will remain less than certain. There have been suggestions that Magnier and McManus wanted to install Martin O'Neill as his successor.

Judging by the softening of Cubic's stance towards United in recent days, it seems Magnier's short-term strategy now is to work peacefully towards power while knowing he and McManus are in a position of considerable strength.

The pair were not entirely satisfied with the response they received to the 99 "corporate governance questions" posed of Gardner last month. However, the tone of the document suggested United appreciates that they need to cede ground.

And unless they do cede ground - which will include granting seats on the board - Cubic still holds the option of either launching a full-blown takeover or effectively handing the chance of a takeover to another shareholder.

Short of a full takeover by Cubic or the selling of their stock to a predator, United are acutely aware of the need to edge closer to the Irishmen's views of how the club is run.

If they do not, they still risk having to face an emergency general meeting or being reported to the Financial Services Authority.

And so the saga will continue. Cubic will maintain their motives are driven purely by a desire to protect their investment. United will ignore them at their peril. And the fans will shout from the margins. (© Independent News Service).

[nc]

Let's face it - someone will eventually buy Manchester United - and I'd be much happier to see Glazer buy United than those Irish nobs.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by barcelona26051999
"Oh Hello Middlesbrough. Here, have the ball, no don't mind me, you just keep running towards our goal, I won't try to tackle, and neither will any of my team mates. Just make sure whenever we have the ball, you get three players to challenge for every ball so we can't do anything with it."

I heard this was said to a Boro player last night just after kick off, any truth?

Seems to fit in with what transpired in the next 90 mins mate!!


Surely this and the recent defeat against Wolves can't just be down to Rio being absent from the team?
We are starting to look like Chelsea, a team on individuals.

Arsenal were critisised for not buying anyone in the summer but have kept their already strong squad together and recently added Reyes. They are unbeaten in 25 games.

We should have done similar instead of trying to bring in 7 or 8 players to build a new younger team overnight.

Beckham and Veron going, Barthez getting treated like crap, Butt suddenly behind Fletcher and Phil Neville in the squad pecking order? If anyone had told us this 18 months ago, we'd have said they were mad.


Home defeats to Fulham & Middlesborough and away defeats to Southampton and Wolves. Unacceptable for Manchester United.

Our ONLY hope of a trophy this season now is the FA Cup, IF we can avoid Arsenal!!

[madstu]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
Seems to fit in with what transpired in the next 90 mins mate!!


Surely this and the recent defeat against Wolves can't just be down to Rio being absent from the team?
We are starting to look like Chelsea, a team on individuals.

Arsenal were critisised for not buying anyone in the summer but have kept their already strong squad together and recently added Reyes. They are unbeaten in 25 games.

We should have done similar instead of trying to bring in 7 or 8 players to build a new younger team overnight.

Beckham and Veron going, Barthez getting treated like crap, Butt suddenly behind Fletcher and Phil Neville in the squad pecking order? If anyone had told us this 18 months ago, we'd have said they were mad.


Home defeats to Fulham & Middlesborough and away defeats to Southampton and Wolves. Unacceptable for Manchester United.

Our ONLY hope of a trophy this season now is the FA Cup, IF we can avoid Arsenal!!

the problem with youre coimments is;

Howard has been a fantastic signing - far better than barthez;

Neville has been consistantly good in the middle;

Veron was rubbish for Utd!!:searchme:

losing a player like Rio is a massive blow, coupled with the fact theat his replacament has been out for 8 months is a reciepe for disaster.

However to say Utd's only hope is the FA cup is an obsurd joke, Uts have more points than they had at this time last year, won their group in the CL - so why dont ypou get behind the team and stop all this negativity - and then maybe they will get back on track. :thumbs:

[joconnor]

Originally posted by nc
Let's face it - someone will eventually buy Manchester United - and I'd be much happier to see Glazer buy United than those Irish nobs.

Thats kinda like saying 'I would prefer Stalin to run the country instead of Hitler'

Glazer is just as bad, if not worse long term.

[ICEM@N]

Ferguson should have quit when he was at the very top (Won the European cup)

IMHO Nevilles are hardly good enough to play for a top Premier League team, plus the Manure fans even chant 'if Nevilles good enough to play for england so am I'?!

The Tango man isn't the same as he used to be.

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by ICEM@N
Ferguson should have quit when he was at the very top (Won the European cup) Yes, we have had to put up with THREE measly titles since. :oh-hum:

Originally posted by ICEM@N
IMHO Nevilles are hardly good enough to play for a top Premier League team, plus the Manure fans even chant 'if Nevilles good enough to play for england so am I'?!Utter nonsense.

[Sam]

Originally posted by ICEM@N
Ferguson should have quit when he was at the very top (Won the European cup)

IMHO Nevilles are hardly good enough to play for a top Premier League team, plus the Manure fans even chant 'if Nevilles good enough to play for england so am I'?!

The Tango man isn't the same as he used to be.

:cuckoo: Plant Earth to ICEM@N

Phil Neville is having an excellent season, Gary is reliable as ever and Wes Brown is only a few games back from 8 months out so is bound to be a little ring rusty.

I'm not even going to bother addressing your, frankly ludicrous, comment about Ferguson

[Mr Flibble]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©

Home defeats to ... Middlesborough Unacceptable for Manchester United.



So it wasn't that we played really well then, more than Man United were having an off day?

Although to be fair, the defending for Juninho's two goals was pretty shocking :|

[ICEM@N]

Just saying i'd go out at the top if it was me, maybe move onto a new challenge, that's just my opionon.

And the chant about Neville was being sung not that long ago, by manure fans who were at games.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by madstu
the problem with youre coimments is;

Howard has been a fantastic signing - far better than barthez;

Neville has been consistantly good in the middle;

Veron was rubbish for Utd!!:searchme:

losing a player like Rio is a massive blow, coupled with the fact theat his replacament has been out for 8 months is a reciepe for disaster.

However to say Utd's only hope is the FA cup is an obsurd joke, Uts have more points than they had at this time last year, won their group in the CL - so why dont ypou get behind the team and stop all this negativity - and then maybe they will get back on track. :thumbs:

Barthez was still treated badly, regardless of how well Howard has done.

Neville is adequate in the middle, not good enough to win league or champions league with.

Veron is a class player, never given a chance by the manager or the majority of fans. He has been dogged by injuries throughout his time in England.

I notice you don't mention Beckham when quoting and coming back at my original post?


How is it absurd to suggest we only have a chance in the FA Cup?

1) Arsenal are 5 points clear of us, unbeaten in 25 games AND we have to go there.

2) In the last 3 league games we have conceded 8 goals against Southampton, Everton and Middlesborough: the Champions League containing AC Milan, Real Madrid, Juventus, Arsenal and Chelsea might be slightly tougher.

I don't think i'm being absurd at all.

Me getting behind the team won't make a slight bit of difference to us getting back on track. Only SAF and the team can do that.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Mr Flibble
So it wasn't that we played really well then, more than Man United were having an off day?


You might be right mate but we seem to be having alot of 'off days' of late.

The City FA Cup game is suddenly MASSIVE.
God forbid we lose that one!!!!!!!

[unrealnils]

I woudn't worry about Juventus Jezza you could concede 4 and still score 6, you saw the Roma game right :lol:

[SteM]

©™~UKJEZZA~™©, you don't seem to enjoy being a United fan at all from looking at your posts :)

We still have to play Arsenal - if we're being positive we should be saying that this is a chance to make up 3 points, not saying 'we're 5 points behind and we still have to go to Highbury'.

There's still 6 weeks before that match, who knows the situation by then, we may have sorted out our defensive problems.

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by ICEM@N
And the chant about Neville was being sung not that long ago, by manure fans who were at games. Nonsense

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
Neville is adequate in the middle, not good enough to win league or champions league with. We won the league last year with Neville in the middle.

[Crouching Tiger]

I listened to an interview on BBC Radio 5 yesterday with a friend of Glazier. The interviewer described Man U as a club in crisis.

I'm a Liverpool fan and wouldn't mind swaping positions if you're interested. :suspect: :nuts:

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
Veron is a class player, never given a chance by the manager or the majority of fans. He has been dogged by injuries throughout his time in England. Veron was given more than enough opportunities at United and aside from about 5 games he was never anything more than average, he frequently lost possesion & was too lightweight in the tackle. I predict he will be just as ineffective at Chelsea when he returns from his injury.

Ferguson has said that he needs to change the side around and I agree with him, we dont want a situation like Liverpool had circa 1991 when 8 or 9 of the first team squad were hitting 30 at the same time with no players coming through & no time to bed them in. Think about the age of the team if we had kept Veron, Beckham & Co... at the start of next season:-

Barthez - 33
G.Neville 29
Silvestre - 27
Ferdinand - 26
???? Do we have a left back?
Beckham - 29
Keane - 34
Scholes - 29
Giggs - 31
Veron - 30
Solskjaer - 32

Too many of that lot were approaching the end & we would have needed wholesale changes in a couple of years time - which as Liverpool found out, is the wrong way to go about things. The addition of Howard,Ronaldo, Saha, Kleberson, Djembax2 means they can learn off the old heads whilst gradually being introduced to the team. The only mistake I think Ferguson has made is in not staring this process earlier, meaning we have had to make slightly too many changes this year than I think he would have liked.

[nc]

Well, a Glazer takeover looks likely. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3485393.stm)
Although the majority of United supporters are dead against it, surely it is a good thing getting rid of the threat of Magnier/McManus. Manchester United are a PLC and it is inevitable that one day it will be bought. I cannot see how Glazer taking over would change things much - surely he would just want the team to be succesful on the pitch and make a nice profit.

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by nc
Well, a Glazer takeover looks likely. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3485393.stm)
Although the majority of United supporters are dead against it, surely it is a good thing getting rid of the threat of Magnier/McManus. Manchester United are a PLC and it is inevitable that one day it will be bought. I cannot see how Glazer taking over would change things much - surely he would just want the team to be succesful on the pitch and make a nice profit. I dont know much about him, all I know is that he hasnt stated what his intentions are to the the club or the fans, and that he has hiked up the prices at Tampa Bay and if he does the same at Old Trafford then I cant afford to go.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by The 3 little pigs
We won the league last year with Neville in the middle.

Depends which way you look at it mate. I think Arsenal THREW the league away last year.
That aside, Neville in the Champions League is simply not good enough. If i'm proved wrong i'll be ecstatic.............i doubt i will be though.

All i'm saying chaps is that you CANNOT bring in 7 or 8 players in one season and expect to compete with the Arsenals and Real Madrids who have only ADDED to their squads instead of selling experienced players.

[nc]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
Real Madrids who have only ADDED to their squads instead of selling experienced players. Who's Makelele? And Morientes? And Hierro?:D

[Torf]

Originally posted by The 3 little pigs
Nonsense

Agreed, only ever heard it talked about by mark and lard, and they were on about City fans singing it (which wouldn't surprise me). I've NEVER heard this at OT, and sincerely doubt that the majority of Man Utd fans doubt either of the Neville's talent and commitment to the club over the last 10 years.

[suicidedd]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
Depends which way you look at it mate. I think Arsenal THREW the league away last year.
That aside, Neville in the Champions League is simply not good enough. If i'm proved wrong i'll be ecstatic.............i doubt i will be though.

:eek: Surely you have to be a wind up? Arsenal, Scouse or City?

We went on an 18 game unbeaten streak at the end of last season...And both Neville's have done a very good job this season, as ever. The "fact" that they're unreliable is just media hype that people buy into.

[AndrewC]

©™~UKJEZZA~™©

Were you around in the 70s and 80s? You sound like a spoilt 606 caller to me! :(

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by AndrewC
©™~UKJEZZA~™©

Were you around in the 70s and 80s? You sound like a spoilt 606 caller to me! :(

Best game I ever went to was in '84 against Barcelona:thumbs:

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by AndrewC
©™~UKJEZZA~™©

Were you around in the 70s and 80s? You sound like a spoilt 606 caller to me! :(

You know nothing about me mate!! I went home and away for 7 years when i was a single man, married life and children has changed my priorities since then.
I am certainly NOT a spoilt fan, i have spent £1000's on UTD over the last 20 years and have every right to my opinion about them. I LOVE them with a passion which is why i get so frustrated when all is not well.
If i seem critical sometimes, it's cos i've seen it all and have suffered the BAD times as well as enjoyed the good.

[N00N00]

Originally posted by suicidedd
:The "fact" that they're unreliable is just media hype that people buy into.

Yeah, Gary is an absolute master of the off-side rule, could give Tony Adams a run for his money, Also, he's so prolific in front of goal, especially for a right back in such a low scoring side. If it weren't for his skill at catching people off side he'd be playing up front. Yep, a right little Tony Adams / Roberto Carlos combo and such a nice guy too.

And Phil has got to be the best and most accurate tackler in the game, and such a gentleman. His disclipine is incredible - I don't think he's ever been booked. Quite amazing, especially as he always gets the full 90 minutes week in week out. Plus he's performed at a high level every single season - certinaly no flash in the pan.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by suicidedd
:eek: Surely you have to be a wind up? Arsenal, Scouse or City?

We went on an 18 game unbeaten streak at the end of last season...And both Neville's have done a very good job this season, as ever. The "fact" that they're unreliable is just media hype that people buy into.

1) I'm a Concerned Man Utd fan mate.

2) "The "fact" that they're unreliable is just media hype that people buy into"...................Spot on mate, it's just media Hype the Nevilles being unreliable. It was the press who made G.Neville dive, go mad, then butt Shaggy today!! :lol:

[suicidedd]

Only his second sending off. It was stupid yes.....


But he's got the third most assists in our team. He's made less mistakes than most of our defenders. He's saved us twice in big games (Blocked a goal against the Scousers and against Chelsea), He's 100% commited and he loves Manchester United, which is more than can be said for you.

[Tob]

Originally posted by N00N00
Yeah, Gary is an absolute master of the off-side rule, could give Tony Adams a run for his money, Also, he's so prolific in front of goal, especially for a right back in such a low scoring side. If it weren't for his skill at catching people off side he'd be playing up front. Yep, a right little Tony Adams / Roberto Carlos combo and such a nice guy too.

And Phil has got to be the best and most accurate tackler in the game, and such a gentleman. His disclipine is incredible - I don't think he's ever been booked. Quite amazing, especially as he always gets the full 90 minutes week in week out. Plus he's performed at a high level every single season - certinaly no flash in the pan. :lol: I can't work out if you are being sarcastic but I presume you are :lol:

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by suicidedd
He's 100% commited and he loves Manchester United, which is more than can be said for you.

His commitment and love for Man Utd have never been questioned, it's his and his brothers past mistakes and general ability that people have had a go at. I certainly have never questioned his loyalty to us.

Football is about opinuions mate, having one doesn't mean we don't love our club. It certainly doesn't mean that for me anyway.

Point is you said he was reliable and then he gets sent off a few hours later.
You gotta admit, pretty ironic isn't it!! What are the odds? ;)

Main thing is that we won and beat CITY in the bargain.

Lets hope we get Millwall at home next round.

[suicidedd]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
Point is you said he was reliable and then he gets sent off a few hours later.
You gotta admit, pretty ironic isn't it!! What are the odds? ;)


You have a point there. I was at the match today, and when Ruud went down I said : "Henry has hardly ever been injured since he joined Arsenal."

And then I come on here and find out that he's injured. :nuts:

[N00N00]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©


You gotta admit, pretty ironic isn't it!! What are the odds? ;)



Not all that bad actually - him and his brother had the worst discipinary record at united this season (even before the yellow and red card yesterday), and phil had a terrible record last season as well.

[barcelona26051999]

I had a bet on Utd to win 4-1, bloomin' fowler/winter. All together now, "I'd rather....."

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by barcelona26051999
I had a bet on Utd to win 4-1, bloomin' fowler/winter. All together now, "I'd rather....."

Unlucky mate, i bet that would have been a nice little payout?

[Sonick]

Feb 15 2004

By Andy Dunn


MANCHESTER UNITED are lining up a sensational £25million summer swoop for Wayne Rooney.

And Everton know they face a grim battle to hang on to their England superstar.

Sir Alex Ferguson has been a long-time admirer of the teenage striker and Rooney's astonishing second-half display against United last week cemented his place at the top of the Old Trafford wish-list.

And I understand that even senior United players have been lobbying the management to make a move.

Rooney has pledged his loyalty to Everton and the Goodison Park club have insisted he is not for sale.

But their hand could be forced when Rooney's advisers open talks on a new Everton contract this summer.

Negotiations will begin at the end of the season and Rooney's people are sure to ask for a budget-busting, record-breaking deal.

The highest-paid players at Goodison are Duncan Ferguson and Kevin Campbell ... both on around £35,000 a week. Rooney's agents are bound to ask for more.

Cash-strapped Everton would struggle to meet such demands ... especially if they are relegated.

And Everton directors know they could wipe out their financial shortfalls at a stroke with the sale of Rooney.

Despite his spectacular emergence on to the England scene, Rooney has cut a frustrating figure in the Premiership this season and has not always cemented a starting place in David Moyes' line-up.

The Everton manager continues to treat him with kid gloves even though his side are plummeting towards the danger zone. Despite the fact that Rooney has two years left on his £13,000-a-week contract, it was always understood that Everton would renegotiate the deal after his 18th birthday - which was back in October. Privately, Chelsea have already made it clear that they want to be at the head of the queue should Rooney become available.

But United believe they will have the upper hand because Rooney could still live on Merseyside, where he has just bought a new £700,000 house.

Ferguson puts great store in the opinion of his senior players.

And his large England contingent have returned to Old Trafford telling tales of Rooney's incredible talent.


Source: The People

---------------------------------------------

:thinking: i would rather Van der Vaart

[Listy]

£25m for that fat little git... pull the other one :lol: :lol: :lol:

[HenryKrinkle]

He's a bit of a hot-headed pie eater at the moment...but the kid has talent...and if there's anyone who could get the very best out of him, it surely has to be Fergie :thumbs:

...I can see this happening :)

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by N00N00
Not all that bad actually - him and his brother had the worst discipinary record at united this season (even before the yellow and red card yesterday), and phil had a terrible record last season as well. but all that is relative, seeing as they play for a team with one of the best disciplinary records. we finished top of the fair play 'league' last season (city going into europe in 7th place), and were topping it again in mid-autumn since when i haven't checked it. moreover, out of the top sides we always have the best disciplinary record. and compared to arsenal it's like chalk and cheese.

i don't know who you support mate, but it's laughable to see united highlighted for 'disciplinary' issues when they're so few and far between compared to arsenal, and usually (though not in this case) less serious when they do happen. not surprising though given the shameless london bias of large swathes of the national press and the majority ABU mindset of most fans in the country,

anyway, your ABU trolling on this thread is not only unwelcome but isn't it the "done thing" on here now, if not actually a rule, that opposing fans only post 'constructive' comments on a team's thread?

[Kronik]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
but it's laughable to see united highlighted for 'disciplinary' issues when they're so few and far between compared to arsenal, and usually (though not in this case) less serious when they do happen. not surprising though given the shameless london bias of large swathes of the national press and the majority ABU mindset of most fans in the country,



Every time Arsenal get into some sort of a Ruckus on the field people seem to be always calling for point deductions! :p

[D J Fryer]

Even as a United supporter its not good form to be comparative about our discipline i.e. Arsenal this and that - the fact is as a team we have a very good disciplinary record irrespective of other teams standards.

Yellow cards do not necessarily show ill-disciplined players and I would suspect that the majority of P Neville's yellows have been for poorly timed challenges (or accumulations of) rather than malicious or cynical hacks.

No defence for G Neville's butt, (to be honest the only person he made to look stupid was himself) but the punishment for that sort of offence is correct and he will serve his ban. No need to dust off the gallows just yet ;)

Yellow and Red cards are not a true measure of how disciplined a team is - the reasons they were given are and, isolated incidents apart, United players and fans can hold their heads high in that respect.

Cue quotes of specific instances of United ill-discpline.................. :lol:

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by D J Fryer
Even as a United supporter its not good form to be comparative about our discipline i.e. Arsenal this and that - the fact is as a team we have a very good disciplinary record irrespective of other teams standards. i quite agree. however, in this particular instance it was unavoidable as part of a reasonable reposte to a post that has no place here.

i wouldn't go onto the official arsenal thread and start posting rants about what a dirty, sly little cheat i think ashley cole is. nor would i even have to mention that opinion here were it not for the aforementioned troll above.

agree with everything else you said though.

[D J Fryer]

Not a dig Ben, just wasn't clear from his post that he was an Arsenal fan - can understand your response if you know he is (I agree about Cole BTW :D )

[Ben Martin]

that's okay mate. i didn't take it as a dig, just trying to clear things up a little. :)

however, i don't know if he is an arsenal fan, and i'm not saying he is. he is trolling on several threads, either united-related or where united are mentioned, and he's a rabid ABU. as to who he supports, i have no idea.

i picked arsenal as an example because i have derogatory opinions about them (respect the quality of the football, dislike certain players) and pointed out i wouldn't talk about them, or anyone else, on 'official' threads the way this guy does about united on here.

[N00N00]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
but all that is relative, seeing as they play for a team with one of the best disciplinary records. we finished top of the fair play 'league' last season (city going into europe in 7th place), and were topping it again in mid-autumn since when i haven't checked it. moreover, out of the top sides we always have the best disciplinary record. and compared to arsenal it's like chalk and cheese.

i don't know who you support mate, but it's laughable to see united highlighted for 'disciplinary' issues when they're so few and far between compared to arsenal, and usually (though not in this case) less serious when they do happen. not surprising though given the shameless london bias of large swathes of the national press and the majority ABU mindset of most fans in the country,

anyway, your ABU trolling on this thread is not only unwelcome but isn't it the "done thing" on here now, if not actually a rule, that opposing fans only post 'constructive' comments on a team's thread?

1. Yes I agree that everything is relative. The point i was making was that going on current form this season - if any utd player was likely to get sent off then the odd's were that it would be one of the Neville borthers. Surely that's a reasonable point to make and a more than constructive one too??

2. I don't see anything laughable about diving and headbutting. They should be highlighted no mater which teams are involved - yes even if that team is Man U.

3. Yes there is a London media bias - but absolutely loads of people in London support Man U. So Liverpool fans can legitamitly moan about such a bias, but you don't have a case i'm afriad. By saying there is London bias you are actually saying there is a bias towards Man U (as well as Chelsea, Arsenal, etc). Anyway, that's mostly irrelevant - the REAL bias in this country is a big-team bias at the expense of smaller teams (just try watching the premiership)- no prizes for guessing which team benefits more than any other from the big team bias. :wave:

4. One reson i posted about the Neville brothers was to give some support to UKJEZZA. He makes incredibly thoughtful and reasonalble posts, and just gets shouted down by idiots questioning his loyalty and sense. I would guess he is one of the most loyal fans here, but even if he isn't he's certianly one of the most intelligent. Seems to be that's its ok to post any old nonsense here about how great utd are, but as soon as someone such as UKJEZA tells it as it really is and voices reasonable and very well argued concerns itis as if they have committed a crime. Personally i can't see anything "constructive" about that whatsoever, it may be the "done thing" in the Man Utd that, but i expect there are written rules about it.

5. i never said that the Neville bothers were dirty, sly cheats. the only person who has use such words in reference to a player is yourself, and it is . Such comments were made about an Arsenal player, whereas this thread is supposed to be about Man U. Now what exactly is so "constructive" about that? Additionally, it is yet again an example of someone twisitng the facts

6. Your post was a repost to mine , and mine a repost to suicidedd's. I don't actually see a problem there. He made a point and me and Gary blew huge holes in it (with pretty decent timing). People have different opinions and we express them on the forums. Other people have appreciated my comments very much indeed and it's nice that they've showed their appreciateion. I in turn appreciate comments of posters such as UKJEZZA and SteM and any of the more reasoned and well humoured people here.

Everything i have stated has been well argued and based on facts. We all have in built bias one way or another, but I try to avoid making ill informed posts by checking out the facts first. I can understand that you are upset about neville getting two valetines day cards, but don't try to bully people off a thread just because they make a good post you don't agree with, and don't twist facts either or make them up as you go along.

If people are going to perpetuate myths on these forums then i will reply to them as much as i like and i have every right to do so. If you don't wish me to post in this thread then that's fine. If your posts were factually and correct and people refrained from attacking any resonable posts here then I wouldn't need to say another word.

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by N00N00
1. Yes I agree that everything is relative. The point i was making was that going on current form this season - if any utd player was likely to get sent off then the odd's were that it would be one of the Neville borthers. Surely that's a reasonable point to make and a more than constructive one too??indeed it is - the way you just put it. my post about you was based entirely on your post that was barbed sarcasm from start to finish. there was no discernible point in there, let alone a constructive one, and it just sounded like an ABU rant.

2. I don't see anything laughable about diving and headbutting. They should be highlighted no mater which teams are involved - yes even if that team is Man U.you accuse me later on in your post of, quote, "twisitng (sic) the facts". irrespective of whether that is true or not, it's clearly something you know all about. it's more than clear to anyone who read my post that i was not saying that diving and headbutting are laughing matters. i said "but it's laughable to see united highlighted for 'disciplinary' issues when they're so few and far between compared to arsenal". the impression almost of two different sets of rules is laughable, not the incident in this case. and at the end of that same sentence i even say that the headbutting was a serious incident. so you have neither a point here nor a case.

3. Yes there is a London media bias - but absolutely loads of people in London support Man U. So Liverpool fans can legitamitly moan about such a bias, but you don't have a case i'm afriad.on the basis of what? all those united fans in london either work in the media or have some influence over it?! the presence of a sizeable number of fans in the area has no bearing on this issue.

By saying there is London bias you are actually saying there is a bias towards Man Ubut you know i meant bias 'against', which is what i would say in most other circumstances. but it is regularly referred to, whether you hold that opinion or not, as the "media bias". everyone knows what it means. that's just nit-picking. i agree about the big team bias though, and it's a shame. we don't play in a vacuum and as a united fan i'd like to see more of the competition. i don't want most teams to just appear to be faceless opposition to me when i'm at old trafford, i want to have some appreciation of who they are.

4. One reson i posted about the Neville brothers was to give some support to UKJEZZA. He makes incredibly thoughtful and reasonalble posts, and just gets shouted down by idiots questioning his loyalty and sense. I would guess he is one of the most loyal fans here, but even if he isn't he's certianly one of the most intelligent. Seems to be that's its ok to post any old nonsense here about how great utd are, but as soon as someone such as UKJEZA tells it as it really is and voices reasonable and very well argued concerns it is as if they have committed a crime. Personally i can't see anything "constructive" about that whatsoever, it may be the "done thing" in the Man Utd that, but i expect there are written rules about it.fair enough, i have no argument with UKJEZZA, nor with you defending him, and i agree with your opinion about him. you're right that those posts you refer to are certainly not constructive, but my point was that while you or i might not like them it is fair enough for united fans to have a pop (within reason) at each other on their own 'official' thread but not for non-united fans to do so. this is also true for every other team's 'official' thread. if you weren't doing this then i have no qualms in taking that accusation back and apologising. sorry mate. :)

5. i never said that the Neville bothers were dirty, sly cheats. the only person who has use such words in reference to a player is yourself, and it is . Such comments were made about an Arsenal player, whereas this thread is supposed to be about Man U. Now what exactly is so "constructive" about that? Additionally, it is yet again an example of someone twisitng the factsi wasn't accusing you of calling them that. i thought your sarcastic post breached the 'unofficial peace' of the official threads, and so as not to appear to be treating the united thread in isolation gave an example of what would constitute me doing the same on the arsenal thread. it was illustrating a point on the united thread, in defence of an injustice i thought had occurred, and not a general, unprovoked statement about arsenal.

I can understand that you are upset about neville getting two valetines day cards, but don't try to bully people off a thread just because they make a good post you don't agree with, and don't twist facts either or make them up as you go along.the latter accusation is one i don't thinkyou're really in a position to make, but that is dealt with above and i'm trying to keep things friendly here. as for neville's cards - yes, it's a shame and i'm concerned about the matches he will miss. but that's it. you seem to imply i've lost the plot over over it, but if you look at my statements on this thread and the weekend thread about it you'll see that i said from the first that i had no complaint and he had to go.

as i've hopefully explained already, your sarcastic post looked like an ABU troll to me. if that wasn't the case, and/or i missed the context, then i take it back. no problem. and despite me picking through it, your last post clears things up for me. whether i agree with all the arguments isn't the issue when it's a well thought out, well argued post. i respect that, and acknowledge that it looks like i got the wrong impression from your earlier post.

i welcome opinions different to my own, whether about football or anything else. not least because the forums would be pretty dull if we all agreed most of the time. and without the opinions of others i can't really form any of my own, so far from wishing to force people off a thread i enjoy the debate. if i don't say what i think about your comments you can't tell me i'm wrong! :)

not to say i agree with you on everything, mind. ;)

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
fair enough, i have no argument with UKJEZZA, nor with you defending him, and i agree with your opinion about him.

Cheers Ben & N00N00 :thumbs:

I've got no problems with anyone on here either. For the majority of us, we all love Man Utd. The fact we disagree is GOOD. It would be a bit boring if we all talked about the 99' treble and how we are the best etc

I think compared to alot of official threads on here, ours contains mainly well thought out posts and generally sparks the most interesting debates amongst Man Utd fans.

I have no problem with non Utd fans like N00N00 posting on here, sometimes an unbiased opinion can be good for the current topic.
What we don't want is anti manu brigade trawling the thread and picking out any negative critisism of the team, quoting it and posting sarcastic inflammatory stuff just for the sake of knocking Man Utd.

I DON'T however put N00N00 in that bracket.

As for the Nevilles, i do believe they are United through and through, G. Neville has been fairly reliable over the years, P. Neville has improved over the last season or so.

However, Gary's attitude in the last season or so is generally that he seems to flip whenever he gets a free kick given against, even if it was a foul. I'm a little puzzled as to why he's started doing it?
Hopefully saturday's events against City will make him think next time the red mist decends.

Phil HAS improved but not enough to give us a real chance of bringing the Champions league back to OT, again just my opinion.

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
I have no problem with non Utd fans like N00N00 posting on here, sometimes an unbiased opinion can be good for the current topic.
What we don't want is anti manu brigade trawling the thread and picking out any negative critisism of the team, quoting it and posting sarcastic inflammatory stuff just for the sake of knocking Man Utd.that sums up my position exactly. and as for the N00N00 'situation', i'm hoping he'll accept the olive branch above. :)

on the issue of the nevilles, the fact that they are united to the core is crucial. that's something you can't teach and that very few outsiders can learn (keane and cantona being notable recent exceptions). it also no doubt contributes to my own bias on the issue. i rarely berate any of the players, and never at the game, but i find it even harder to be objective about someone who wears his heart on his sleeve the way gary neville does.

that kind of passion is worth its weight in gold, and might be called into question if it led to him regularly losing his cool like he did on saturday, but that was most out of character for him. yes, he has appeared more aggressive over the last 12-18 months but i can only speculate as to why - because keane has mellowed over the same period? doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't lead to incidents like saturday, but i think he's learnt his lesson there. he even admitted yesterday that having watched it again on tv he thought the ref was right not to give a penalty etc.

as for their quality on the field, i have to disagree. i think gary has been very reliable over the years. his reputation is only called into question due to the severity and high-profile nature of a handful of rare major errors, e.g. the two slip-ups in the same game during the world club championship in 2000. i also feel that phil was consistently quality in defence until his confidence took a hit because of one mistake, albeit it major and with severe consequences, at euro 2000.

moreover, i think it is more that phil has recaptured his form in the last year or so rather than just having improved. the fact that he is now playing mainly in midfield makes it look like something new, whereas it's just something we hadn't seen as much before. ever since losing to city away last season he has been superb, playing vieira out of the game in the 2-0 win at OT last season (not that there's any argument there). but i agree that his style is more suited to the premiership and generally lacks the additional finesse required for the champions league. though he has been known to pull a sublime bit of skill out of the bag from time to time.

i love the fact that many non-united fans don't rate the nevilles. i know they're quality, and that we might not have been as successful as we have been in recent years if we hadn't had them, and that's all that matters to me. and though they would wish otherwise, their undeservedly 'mixed' reputations might save them from getting injured playing for england.

[N00N00]

Originally posted by Ben Martin


it's more than clear to anyone who read my post that i was not saying that diving and headbutting are laughing matters. i said "but it's laughable to see united highlighted for 'disciplinary' issues when they're so few and far between compared to arsenal". .. so you have neither a point here nor a case.


the latter accusation is one i don't thinkyou're really in a position to make..when it's a well thought out, well argued post. i respect that, and acknowledge that it looks like i got the wrong impression from your earlier post.



Yes it is an accusation i am in a position to make. I would very much like to congraulate Man Utd on their achievements in the fair play league last year, but from the attitude of most Utd fans anyone would thing they were miles ahead of absolutely everyone in this competition. i think you'll find that Man City finished 5th in the fair play league, not 7th (ie u r twisting the facts again)

It is an excellent way of assessing a team's disclipline AND general attitude as it takes account of far more than just red and yellow cards that everyone usually gets so hung up about. As stated earlier "Yellow and Red cards are not a true measure of how disciplined a team is."

As you pointed out earlier it's used to get into Europe and also the official measure. It really does show a fair balanced picture better than any other measure as it assesses factors such as respect for the referee. More importantly, the last I heard was that Chlesea topped the table with Fulham and Charlton up there too (jan 31st), not Man Utd as you suggest might be the case.

it also dissapoints me that as well as knocking Man City you have a go at Arsenal too when there are a few teams considerably worse than them in the fair play league - we should all be looking at those teams and having a go at them

As i said before it seems that people post any old pro Utd rubbish in this thread, and this just perpetuates myths. Of course this occurs a little in other threads, but it seems this one is the worst by miles and miles. You have totally misrepresnted facts about Man City and Arsenal in your post, yet everyone reading will wrongly assume that what you posted was true.

I would like to give Man City some respect for their fair play perfomance. As for Arsenal i would say that it is the teams below them who are the real villans. I.e. If we were impartial the teams we should have a "derrogatry" opinion of and call "sly cheats" should be the ones further down the table than Arsenal? From you posts anyone would infer that Arsenal were the relegation favourites of the fair play league - though admittedly they could improve.

Sorry, but I really can't stand it when people can't face the truth. Clearly i was wrong to say that you twist the facts - seems like that only happens on a good day, and the rest of the time you just make it up as you go along. I know you don't mean to do it half the time but it's the blinkered attitude of most Man utd fans that causes it.

[SteM]

Ben, I think he accepted your olive branch and smacked you over the head with it! :)

[Ben Martin]

disappointing N00N00. you actually had the high ground for a while there (irrespective of one or two liberties taken) with your first post on this page. and i responded fairly and accordingly, acknowledging where i might have misunderstood or misrepresented you. but now you've gone and blown it with that nonsense above. anyone, from ABU to neutral to ardent red, who has been reading all the posts over the last few pages can see that, whether you mean it to be or not, your last post above is largely an unprovoked rant.

however, i am pleased at my reaction - often when someone goes off at you/about you it is intensely irritating, but this is so nuts that i can only claim honestly to be amused! you've totally gone off on one there mate! :nuts:

anyone who takes the time to compare posts on the last few pages can see where you strayed from the safe ground of your initial, strong argument. but i'll highlight a few in a separate post, after i recover from this one! :)

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by N00N00
Yes it is an accusation i am in a position to make.no. it isn't. it definitely isn't. and unlike what followed in the rest of your paragraph, let me actually take a moment to explain why this is the case:

i quoted you saying, "don't twist facts either or make them up as you go along". this was part of a paragraph in which you were talking about neville's "valentines cards" and me supposedly "bullying" you off a thread (hence nothing to do with the fair play stuff you trotted out after your rebuttal quoted above). i had already observed that you yourself had twisted facts by presenting my use of the word "laughable" completely out of context. i said the discrepancy between recent treatment of two teams over conduct issues was "laughable", not the specific conduct issue involving neville from the weekend. moreover, i even pointed out in the same sentence that i wasn't including that incident in my comparison as it was indeed "serious". hence, i was saying that regardless of whether i had twisted facts or not, or done it deliberately if i had, it was utterly hypocritical for you to so blatantly and undeniably commit the very same offence you erroneously accused me of! and in the very same post in which you accused me of it! :nuts:

I would very much like to congraulate Man Utd on their achievements in the fair play league last year, but from the attitude of most Utd fans anyone would thing they were miles ahead of absolutely everyone in this competition.no-one was asking for your congratulations, and i only referred to our position in the fair play league relative to arsenal. nothing was said about any other team. i said our record/position was, is, and usually (if not always) is better than theirs. and as you say, it's a good overall measure of a team's disciplinary record.

i think you'll find that Man City finished 5th in the fair play league, not 7th (ie u r twisting the facts again)thanks statto. i stand corrected, and apologise for not having the precise figure to mind as i typed. i honestly thought it was 7th, though haven't read or heard the figures since the end of last season. hence my mistake. not twisting the facts, and not doing so "again". moreover, to strengthen that, the point was not even that city were specifically 7th, nor that we were top. that didn't matter. it was just observing the fact that they qualified despite being neither top nor all that close.

It is an excellent way of assessing a team's disclipline AND general attitude as it takes account of far more than just red and yellow cards that everyone usually gets so hung up about. As stated earlier "Yellow and Red cards are not a true measure of how disciplined a team is."

As you pointed out earlier it's used to get into Europe and also the official measure. It really does show a fair balanced picture better than any other measure as it assesses factors such as respect for the referee.i know all that and never said otherwise. the sole gist of what you're saying there, certainly in the first paragraph, appears to be: "look, united boy, stop maligning the fair play league. it's fair, accurate and useful." this after all i said was that we had one of the best disciplinary records, and then turned to the fair play league to back it up! so have you just lost the plot and gone off on one randomly there? or are you doing what you wrongly accuse me of and deliberately misquoting what i say, and misrepresenting my position for your own again?
:confused:

More importantly, the last I heard was that Chlesea topped the table with Fulham and Charlton up there too (jan 31st), not Man Utd as you suggest might be the case.again, you are at best :nuts: mate! allow me to quote what i said on the matter (and feel free to go back and check yourself):
"...and [we] were topping it again in mid-autumn since when i haven't checked it." ah, so i neither "suggest might be the case" that united are top, nor claim to know who actually is top. keep digging that hole mate. not only are you accusing me of saying things that there is physical evidence of me never having said, but you are again commiting the 'fact twisting' offence that you repeatedly accuse me of. and you add the caveat "More importantly" to this point as well!! :eek: you've got a nerve, i'll give you that.

it also dissapoints me that as well as knocking Man City...casually knocking city on a united thread? whatever next! what, am i supposed to apologise for that or something?! get real! that's all part of the rivalry. if you can't appreciate that you should take your sanitised, 'new football', "let's all have a love-in" attitude somewhere else. that's reasonable banter mate. nothing more.

...you have a go at Arsenal too when there are a few teams considerably worse than them in the fair play league - we should all be looking at those teams and having a go at themshould "we"? i don't think so. not on this thread anyway. city and arsenal got briefly mentioned on the official united thread in the context of an issue, real or perceived, affecting united. the discussion before or since hasn't been a general dissection of the fair play league and the rights and wrongs of how fans interpret it. that sounds like a thread unto itself.

As i said before it seems that people post any old pro Utd rubbish in this threadagain, god forbid there one might encounter any degree of bias in the "official" united thread where most of the posters are united fans! at least some of us can be honest about our bias (me about neville above, for example). unlike your anti-united bias which you have on flagrant display here with the constant, unfounded mud-slinging you engaged in during your last post. if you're not anti-united, then why persist with the nonsense above? as for bias on this thread being worse by "miles and miles", i would throw out the suggestion that you simply find pro-united bias more objectionable than that towards any other team.

You have totally misrepresnted facts about Man City and Arsenal in your postnot true, but again... people in glass houses and all that. you know all about misrepresenting the facts, as you seem hell-bent on proving.

yet everyone reading will wrongly assume that what you posted was true.really?! if i was you i'd use the words "so you're saying..." here, but that would be putting words into your mouth, so instead i'll say... "you risk implying" that most people reading this thread are too stupid to have their own opinions, and don't have the choice to go and independently verify anything on here purporting to be 'fact'. despite that, most of my comments, unlike your 'damning' statements, are clearly only my 'opinion'.

I would like to give Man City some respect for their fair play perfomance.did anyone suggest otherwise? clearly they "played fair", but it's a valid point about the ease with which teams qualify for europe this way (and one i barely alluded to anyway).

Sorry, but I really can't stand it when people can't face the truth. Clearly i was wrong to say that you twist the facts - seems like that only happens on a good day, and the rest of the time you just make it up as you go along. I know you don't mean to do it half the time but it's the blinkered attitude of most Man utd fans that causes it.what 'truth'? after everything i have just pointed out to you there, after everything i have reminded you i did actually say, what 'truth' are you referring to? you've hit some incredible, and incredibly embarassing, lows in that post, but taking such a pompous, holier-than-thou attitude about supposed 'fact twisting' in that last paragraph is the worst, and most inaccurate, of the lot.

after i was so reasonable above and prepared to take back any mistaken assumptions i had made about you; after conceding a lot of ground to you in the interests of fair, and reasonable debate; you just disgrace yourself and display a total, and appalling, lack of class.

as i said before, very disappointing. :oh-hum:

[N00N00]

Originally posted by Ben Martin

no-one was asking for your congratulations, and i only referred to our position in the fair play league relative to arsenal. nothing was said about any other team. i said our record/position was, is, and usually (if not always) is better than theirs. Indeed you did, indeed you did.

thanks statto. i stand corrected, and apologise for not having the precise figure to mind as i typed. i honestly thought it was 7th, though haven't read or heard the figures since the end of last season. hence my mistake. not twisting the facts, and not doing so "again". moreover, to strengthen that, the point was not even that city were specifically 7th, nor that we were top. that didn't matter. it was just observing the fact that they qualified despite being neither top nor all that close.

all i said was that we had one of the best disciplinary records, and then turned to the fair play league to back it up! so have you just lost the plot ?
:confused:

:

Nope that's you I'm afraid, sorry wrong again!

The fact is that you are using the Fair Play league to support Man Utd and to suggest that they are vastly superior to Man City and in particular the dirty, sly, scumbags of Arsenal.

Having researched the matter further I have found the fair play league for mid Autumn (a time frame you yourself used), and for January 31st (the most recent data I could find anywhere).

Perhaps you would be interested to know that on the more recent occasion, CONTRARY TO ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EVER SAID ON THE MATTER , the team in second place , is one from the north of London that plays in red and white! (with Chelsea in top place) On top of that, on the occasion that you quote, back in Mid Autumn, said red and white team from North London occupied the 1st place spot in the table!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Apologies for completely blowing all your posts totally out of the water mate, but you did ask for the truth, and there it is!!!!!

I'm sure that other people are pretty bored of all the nonsense in your posts so probably best we stop now. Next time you wish to talk about how amazing Man Utd are or the next time you get on your high Van Nistelrooy horse about how dirty another team is can I suggest you perhaps consider the facts first and maybe look rather closer to home??????

I probably won't bother posting much more in this thread, not in reply to you anyway as it's pretty much impossible to be any further ahead in an argument than this. It's been great fun, bye.:wave: :clap:

[D J Fryer]

and there endeth the personal argument please - I don't contibute much but it seems apparent to even me that this is now slightly off topic.

When is Ole gonna be back and more to the point when is he gonna be back in the form we are accustomed to?

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by D J Fryer
When is Ole gonna be back and more to the point when is he gonna be back in the form we are accustomed to?

Hopefully he'll be on the bench for the Leeds game.

Knowing Ole, hell hit the ground running. We've missed him so much this season. With Ronlado improving all the time, there will be no need to rush him back in AND a healthy competition for the right side of midfield.

What about that Home FA Cup draw against Fulham/West Ham then? Can't ask for much better than that.

I'd like Fulham myself, i'm still smarting from that 1 - 3 Home defeat to them earlier this season. :mad:

[Alan. b]

Originally posted by D J Fryer
and there endeth the personal argument please - I don't contibute much but it seems apparent to even me that this is now slightly off topic.

Totally agree. I think it is time that this was took off the forums and this thread got back to what it is here for.

[D J Fryer]

UKJEZZA - Fulham do always seem to perform against us though, even when they don't win. I have to say I would prefer West Ham, without Defoe I can't see that they have the class to do it at OT, (also getting a few more than six could do the team the world of good!).

I think Ole has been one of the biggest losses this season - he more than adequately replaced Beckham on the right when Fergie benched him last season and more importantly he is good at getting round the back from right wing giving Giggs another target when we attack down the left.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by D J Fryer
UKJEZZA - Fulham do always seem to perform against us though, even when they don't win. I have to say I would prefer West Ham, without Defoe I can't see that they have the class to do it at OT, (also getting a few more than six could do the team the world of good!)

You're right, Fulham always play well against us.
I'd still like to dump them out of the cup though !! ;)

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by Alan. b
Totally agree. I think it is time that this was took off the forums and this thread got back to what it is here for.amen to that. unfortunately it won't be taken up off the forums as i don't know where to get hold of him.

anyway, i have faith in the non-mental people on here and they can check the stats (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/fairplay?league=ENG.1&cc=5739) for themselves. not that any of it means i'm necessarily "right" (whatever that is), but it shows his last post above to be that of a EDIT. (think of the old chant "oh andy hunt is good up front...").

seems harsh to give him the last word when, irrespective of who is right and who is wrong, i attempted to bring it all to a halt and get back on topic by extending the olive branch this morning, but you're the mod and that's fair enough. plus, everyone else, myself included, doesn't deserve this.

back to united...

they showed ole on the highlights on saturday, watching from the stands with his kid. unbelieveable to think how long it is since he's played. even with competition for that right side of midfield, he only needs to come on for a few minutes. let hope he's still got the old magic.

as for the cup draw, i was really hoping we'd draw arsenal. yes arsenal - the "dirty, sly, scumbags" :cuckoo: whose football and captain i've always admired, and who my cousins support - home or away, though preferably the former. as i said on the 6th round draw thread, if we're to win the competition we'll have to beat them sooner or later. better sooner, not least because if we can't we might as well be out of it and concentrating on the league.

[barcelona26051999]

Good performance by the Youth team to beat Norwich 4-2. Through to the qf.

[Pisces Iscariot]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
anyway, i have faith in the non-mental people on here and they can check the stats (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/fairplay?league=ENG.1&cc=5739) for themselves. not that any of it means i'm necessarily "right" (whatever that is), but it shows his last post above to be that of a EDIT. (think of the old chant "oh andy hunt is good up front...").
Now that's where there's a problem. You're looking at a table based purely on cards while t'other bloke is looking at the 'proper' Fair Play league which follows UEFA's criteria and thus includes rubbish such as rankings for positive play, respect for opponents and the referee, the behaviour of team officials and supporters as well as cautions and dismissals.

This 'proper' Fair Play League obviously works well if Arsenal are top considering Lehmann, Campbell, Vieira, Lauren, Parlour, Keown and Cole have all been before the FA on account of their conduct and the club received a record fine for failing to control their players. :lol:

Sorry I don't mean to take the thread off-topic again but I had to point out the probable source of confusion.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Pisces Iscariot
Now that's where there's a problem. You're looking at a table based purely on cards while t'other bloke is looking at the 'proper' Fair Play league which follows UEFA's criteria and thus includes rubbish such as rankings for positive play, respect for opponents and the referee, the behaviour of team officials and supporters as well as cautions and dismissals.

This 'proper' Fair Play League obviously works well if Arsenal are top considering Lehmann, Campbell, Vieira, Lauren, Parlour, Keown and Cole have all been before the FA on account of their conduct and the club received a record fine for failing to control their players. :lol:

Sorry I don't mean to take the thread off-topic again but I had to point out the probable source of confusion.

I think that clears that up!! :lol:

[Ben Martin]

it does indeed clear that one point up. cheers pisces, that explains it. and i'm happy to profess ignorance as to the two separate 'leagues'.
note to mods: just replying to pisces here, not seeking to go off-topic again.

as i said in the bit you quoted, i was hardly presenting the issue as gospel. and he has the affront to deal with one point out of so many i picked him up on, and go so hideously, and vaguely, over the top. moreover, from the start, and at every stage, i stressed the arsenal statements were just my opinion, and that i didn't know what the exact stats were on the matter. how many times did i use the word 'bias' in reference to myself?

they can keep their own counsel, bu i'd like to think D J Fryer and particularly ukjezza won't accord him the same level of respect any more. but i'd better shut up now or Alan b. will have me shot!

i just hope everyone remembers west brom's andy hunt! :p

better throw in some united chat to justify this post :D ... would be interested to know what thoughts people had about my opinions on the neville brothers posted above, but long since lost in the melee.

[D J Fryer]

Once upon a time I was amazed that the Neville's held places in the squad at United let alone the 1st team and England side.

I have to say I now admire Phil for his dogged determination and his dedication to the club. I've always though that Gary worked well with Becks on the right but now he has gone he does seem to revert to the long ball a little too often - maybe that will change if and when Ole comes in on the right? Their both defensively competent, they're just not outstanding, (and I have to say that I thought Mills was a more than competent understudy at the world cup for Gary).

[Ben Martin]

that's a good point about neville's importance on the right. i was thinking that on saturday as he seemed to be doing okay overlapping occasionally with ronaldo (though you can barely see that side of the pitch from where i sit!) ... while he was on the pitch anyway.

yet another key aspect of our overall game involving becks that often goes overlooked (also thinking how many times he made the final pass for RVN goals last season). the away games at west brom and saints last season were great examples of this. hopefully gary can get a similar understanding going with ole as you say, and/or with ronaldo.

for the record, i also thought mills had a great world cup.

[Ben Martin]

did anyone read neville's times article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-1003398,00.html) yesterday? i heard quotes from it on the radio bit only just read it now. well worth a read, and as well as dealing with saturday's incident he makes some good observations about wes brown...He has only just come back from a cruciate ligament injury, one of the most serious any footballer can suffer, and had played one reserve match. It can take weeks to recover your best form and, with his abilities, Wes just needs time.and ronaldo...He has taken some stick for falling over since he came to England last summer but anyone who has called him a diver should see the lumps and gashes in his shins. I was amazed when he climbed on the treatment table the other day and I saw all the damage his legs have suffered.

[Citysmith]

Some other classics from Gary:-
When I got up, three City players were rushing towards me. I pushed them out of the way but McManaman brushed his head against mine. When he came towards me again, I pushed my head forward in expectation of him doing the same. I have no problems with the referee’s decision because it looks like a headbutt. Gary if it looks like a headbutt, smells like a headbutt, good chance it is a headbutt :cuckoo:

Firstly, I was 100 per cent convinced at the time that I deserved a penalty. Now that I have seen the replays, I can understand why the referee did not give it but the defender caught my shins and missed the ball completely. Gary if looks like a dive, smells like a dive, good chance it is a dive :cuckoo:

The sight of Gary punching the turf at OT was one of the only highlights about Saturday :clap:

He's so picked on, the whole world against him :cuckoo:

[Pisces Iscariot]

Originally posted by Citysmith
The sight of Gary punching the turf at OT was one of the only highlights about Saturday :clap:
Well from where I was sat the sight of RVN running around waving his shirt was the highlight along with Howard's save from Barton. :D

[madstu]

Originally posted by Pisces Iscariot
Well from where I was sat the sight of RVN running around waving his shirt was the highlight along with Howard's save from Barton. :D

here here :clap: :wave:

[Ben Martin]

me too. :D

closely followed by giving it back to fowler at 4-1, when after 3-1 he was goading our section of the crowd holding three fingers up on one hand and one (you know which) on the other.

[Citysmith]

Originally posted by Pisces Iscariot
Well from where I was sat the sight of RVN running around waving his shirt was the highlight along with Howard's save from Barton. :D Was that after the offside goal by Manchester United, after all you did have 2 goals off side :eek:

But seriously the highlights for me were:-

1. 9,000 blues at OT, singing loud and proud.
2. Goater getting carried around the stand, with chants being sung.
3. Fowler taunting Neville after been sent off for violent conduct
4. Some excellent chants:

a) "You're the pride of Singapore"
b) "Manchester, you're having a laugh"

and my fave of the afternoon from the Manchester United fans "Manchester City, no one knows your name" eh?:nuts: They did.

A top day out, Manchester United deserved the win, as wenever got going, which has happened a lot, just check out the league table :(

[suicidedd]

Quality piece of writing on Fowler's gesture against us, and made even more ironic by the fact that he supports Everton.:lol:

IF, AMID THE RED CARDS AND THE blue language, a single act could be said to have summed up the difference between these fierce rivals on Saturday, it was the rather sad sight of Robbie Fowler holding four fingers up at the Stretford End in a lame attempt to have the last laugh on the home supporters. Those four fingers represented nothing about his employers, Manchester City, but rather the number of European Cups won by his former love, Liverpool, compared with Manchester United’s two.
It was amusing in one sense — and it will certainly enhance his enduring cult status in the red half of Merseyside — but ultimately it was a pitiful gesture from a player who, in common with others at City, can find greater comfort in the past than in the present. For now, the four fingers served as a harmless joke, but when, at the end of his career, he counts up his own medals rather than those of the club he once played for, Fowler may reflect that poking fun at United said more about his own failures than theirs....

[The 3 little pigs]

City’s misspell banner was quite amusing (you think they might get someone with an English O level to check it first!) Whilst the usual crap about Munich was not.

[Grover]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
did anyone read neville's times article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-1003398,00.html) yesterday? i heard quotes from it on the radio bit only just read it now. well worth a read, and as well as dealing with saturday's incident he makes some good observations about wes brown...and ronaldo...

I did read this article yesterday and I'm not going to comment on the headbutting issue as it's probably been discussed already. In terms of his comments about Ronaldo though, I am sorry to hear that he's picked up a lot of cuts and bruises but I still maintain he is inclined to cheat/dive. His 'performance' which won United a free kick against Southampton three weeks ago was a blatant dive and worse still was his playacting/timewasting in the final few minutes. This just rubbed salt into the wounds after a game that, in my opinion, we deserved to get a point, if not three, from.

I know this is common these days but I still find it shameful whenever I see it, including occasionally at St Marys. Le Saux made such a lousy dive against Fulham a fortnight ago that even we booed him! :)

[Kronik]

Originally posted by Pisces Iscariot
Well from where I was sat the sight of RVN running around waving his shirt was the highlight

Is it me or was he immitating Giggs? :nuts:

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Citysmith
Some other classics from Gary:-
Gary if it looks like a headbutt, smells like a headbutt, good chance it is a headbutt :cuckoo:

Gary if looks like a dive, smells like a dive, good chance it is a dive :cuckoo:

The sight of Gary punching the turf at OT was one of the only highlights about Saturday :clap:

He's so picked on, the whole world against him :cuckoo:

Some great points well made dude.

Hope your current dip in form ends soon and you resume winning ways. Wouldn't want you guys to change manager again and end up fighting relegation. :|

[D J Fryer]

Kronik - Is it me or was he immitating Giggs?

Not with 100% conviction though as Giggs clearly holds the united 'chest wig' crown and I can't see him losing it to Ruud :lol:

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by Grover
His 'performance' which won United a free kick against Southampton three weeks ago was a blatant dive and worse still was his playacting/timewasting in the final few minutes.he did go down very easily there, although the tv seemed to show he didn't call for it and hadn't reacted at all before the ref blew for it. i can understand your frustration though mate, especially on the latter point. i know after the game i pointed out there had been two similar stoppages for your boys, but it does leave an unpleasant taste when it happens at the death. and i can't really argue that you didn't deserve anything from the game.

I know this is common these days but I still find it shameful whenever I see it, including occasionally at St Marys. Le Saux made such a lousy dive against Fulham a fortnight ago that even we booed him!how can i be biased about ronaldo if you're going to play so fair with comments like that! :) whatever the degree of his "going down too easily" problem, it has certainly improved several-fold since the start of the season. he was singled out for praise on tv for staying on his feet after several rough tackles in the home game against everton. hopefully he can let it go completely, not least because his game definitely doesn't need it. though the way things are he will always be accused of 'diving' even when he is 'legitimately' felled.

[D J Fryer]

And although it is easier to level criticism for diving at Jonny Foreigner playing in the premiership our very own Mr Beckham always did have a tendancy to 'fling' those legs up in the air on the odd occasion.

I think nowadays its a lot to do with players spectacularly avoiding heavy challenges that causes them to leap into the air - the contact is then minimal but the perception is that of a very bad challenge - simply put a lot of younger players don't have either: -

a) the bottle of their more 'old school' team mates; or
b) the stupidity of their more 'old school' team mates

Look at it whichever way you want :D Case in point was Terry's challenge on Parlour on sunday - good old fashioned block challenge from two of the more old school players and Parlour is injured and leaves the field, (I have done my cruciate ligament in the very same way). Maybe the sensible 'modern' player would have jumped over the challenge?

[Grover]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
he did go down very easily there, although the tv seemed to show he didn't call for it and hadn't reacted at all before the ref blew for it. i can understand your frustration though mate, especially on the latter point. i know after the game i pointed out there had been two similar stoppages for your boys, but it does leave an unpleasant taste when it happens at the death. and i can't really argue that you didn't deserve anything from the game.

how can i be biased about ronaldo if you're going to play so fair with comments like that! :) whatever the degree of his "going down too easily" problem, it has certainly improved several-fold since the start of the season. he was singled out for praise on tv for staying on his feet after several rough tackles in the home game against everton. hopefully he can let it go completely, not least because his game definitely doesn't need it. though the way things are he will always be accused of 'diving' even when he is 'legitimately' felled.

Fair enough, and I confess I haven't seen nearly as much of him as you have. I definitely think he's improving all the time too and is obviously starting to realise that step-overs and tricks are most effective when used sparingly. I think I just felt hard done by in the game in question and, I have to admit, Ronaldo is an easy target for abuse. We're both guilty of the old 'red mist' clouding our vision occasionally. ;) If my mum had heard some of the language I used at Old Trafford that day I don't think she's speak to me again!

Good point about 'looking at the ref', a practice that I find more odious than the actual diving!

[Crikey!]

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer may return to Manchester United's line-up after five months out following knee surgery.

Louis Saha is available after being cup-tied last week while Wes Brown is likely to start on the bench.

Mark Viduka is suspended for Leeds and keeper Scott Carson, 18, makes his debut as Paul Robinson is also banned.

Eirik Bakke (thigh) and Didier Domi (ankle) should be fit but Lucas Radebe (hamstring) is a doubt while Jody Morris and Michael Duberry are out.



so how many goals we gonna win by then, especially with the pie-eating antipodean one suspended?

[madstu]

Originally posted by JonMills
so how many goals we gonna win by then, especially with the pie-eating antipodean one suspended?

probably dominate in the first half, then ease up and let Leeds right back in it:oh-hum:

Wes Brown conceded a pen in a reserve game in mid-week, so his calamities are continuing:brickwall


It would be nice if Ole played some part today.

[Just Call Me Wanda]

I suppose it's only fitting - Leeds gave us the title last year, this year they take it away. :cry:

[suicidedd]

Not over yet. Arsenal have a very good chance, but we've turned over bigger deficits than this.

[Listy]

Not over yet. Arsenal have a very good chance, but we've turned over bigger deficits than this.

I hate to disagree but I think United have blown it with regards to the title :( Fergie should have brought in a new centre back in January (could have had van Buyton on loan as one option) but him failing to do so has seen us crumble at the back against teams such as Wolves & Leeds who are in the bottom 3 in the Premiership! Utterly unacceptable results from a team of United calibre :mad:

Oh well chin up eh... there's always next season to look forward to, where we should hopefully sign Robben & Joaquin (and a few defenders aswell :D )

[platty]

Just got back from the game..............we were AWFUL !!!!!!!...... Why the hell did Fergie play 3 defensive midfielders (Kleberson , P Neville and Butt....) against one of the worst Leeds teams i have EVER seen!!. We should have gone for the throat...it was an absolute disgrace!!!!!!:nono: :mad:

[evilsly]

Wes Brown simply is not good enough for united. How many poor performances does it take

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Until we start treating EVERY game as a difficult one, we will continue to slip up.

We don't start with Keane AGAIN and drop home points against poor opposition. We aren't good enough this year to rest players, simple as that.

I said recently our best chance of a trophy this year was the FA Cup to which i was told was an absurd suggestion.

Arsenal are 7 points clear and we have to go to Highbury with our defence.

I know i'll get the usual critisism for speaking out but surely i can't be the only one concerned with this season?

You just can't sell a player like Beckham and not buy an adequate replacement.

Does anyone else agree that we have gone BACKWARDS since last year?

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by platty
Just got back from the game..............we were AWFUL !!!!!!!...... Why the hell did Fergie play 3 defensive midfielders (Kleberson , P Neville and Butt....) against one of the worst Leeds teams i have EVER seen!!. We should have gone for the throat...it was an absolute disgrace!!!!!!:nono: :mad:

At the least we should include Roy Keane from the start if we are going to play 3 defensive players. Bring him off when the game is won, not wait till we are desperate for a goal and then bring him ON!!

[Sam]

Yes I think we've taken a step backwards but I believe its short term pain for long term gain. I trust Fergie he's not let us down yet. We've won 8 titles in 11 years with changing teams.

Given what's going on in the Boardroom I'm glad he's doing his best to equip the club with players that if they reach their potential will give us a team that could dominate domestically and hopefully in Europe for 4 or 5 seasons. If that takes a season or 2 to happen so be it.

[suicidedd]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
Until we start treating EVERY game as a difficult one, we will continue to slip up.

We don't start with Keane AGAIN and drop home points against poor opposition. We aren't good enough this year to rest players, simple as that.

I said recently our best chance of a trophy this year was the FA Cup to which i was told was an absurd suggestion.

Arsenal are 7 points clear and we have to go to Highbury with our defence.

I know i'll get the usual critisism for speaking out but surely i can't be the only one concerned with this season?

You just can't sell a player like Beckham and not buy an adequate replacement.

Does anyone else agree that we have gone BACKWARDS since last year?

I'd agree mostly with your post.

I don't agree with the Beckham part. Ronaldo is a more than adequate replacement. Infact he's been our best player in recent months, and he'll only get better.

And I don't agree that we've gone backwards. It's a transitional year, and I think Rio's suspension has been the thing that's hurt us most.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with our attack, or midfield. Just our defence.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Sam
Yes I think we've taken a step backwards but I believe its short term pain for long term gain. I trust Fergie he's not let us down yet. We've won 8 titles in 11 years with changing teams.

Given what's going on in the Boardroom I'm glad he's doing his best to equip the club with players that if they reach their potential will give us a team that could dominate domestically and hopefully in Europe for 4 or 5 seasons. If that takes a season or 2 to happen so be it.

If you are right and it takes 2 seasons, where will Arsenal, Chelsea and Real Madrid be at that stage when the only ADD to their squads? Not to mention AC Milan, Juventus, Valencia etc

I think you can only adopt the drastic '7 players in' policy we have this year if you are way ahead of your nearest rivals domestically and in europe. We are neither. We are behind in europe and but for Arsenal throwing the title last year, they'd have won 2 titles in 2 years domestically.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by suicidedd
I'd agree mostly with your post.

I don't agree with the Beckham part. Ronaldo is a more than adequate replacement. Infact he's been our best player in recent months, and he'll only get better.

And I don't agree that we've gone backwards. It's a transitional year, and I think Rio's suspension has been the thing that's hurt us most.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with our attack, or midfield. Just our defence.

I agree, Ronaldo has improved alot and been good in the last few weeks but he doesn't give us the same as Beckham did.
He doesn't have the same drive, work rate, range of passing, vision and threat on free kicks. That to me is NOT an adequate replacement.

[Ben Martin]

i don't think we're going backwards, though it is definitely a transitional year. changing so many players was always going to be risky, yet necessary for the more long-term health of the team/club. that is to exclude beckham though, as i do think we miss him. i started to get worried wathcing the review dvd from last season over the summer, and seeing just how many times he played the final ball for ruud to score. ronaldo may well be an able replacement, and has skills beckham doesn't, but he doesn't balance the loss immediately.

people need to try to stay calm and be objective. it could all have been so different had rio not been allowed to leave carrington on september 23rd. we were not only playing confidently as a team, and defending well, but we were top of the league before he played his last game. his ban has left us with defensive problems (that gary neville's injury and now impending ban have complicated) that would otherwise never have maniested themselves. brown would have eased his way back in and we'd all only be talking about him being the top-class defender that his past record proves he is.

i'm not saying the situation isn't serious, and that overhauling arsenal isn't next to impossible (i think it is, and that we'll likely lose at highbury), but there are reasons for this. and even putting those aside (rio etc.) the factors that seem to be 'weakening' (a few points in it) us this season will hopefully make us stronger in the future - new, younger players.

and as for kleberson, i think he's quality. prone to the occasional lightweight blunder, but a superb passer of the ball. he should be the midfield playmaker and not wasted on the right-wing (particularly now that we have ronaldo and solksjaer is back) where he's pretty poor.

[FBI]

This season it's not happening anymore.

Ferdinand was better than people gave him credit for. Our defence has gone form being the meanest in the Premiership to one that leaks goals all over the place. Brown is awful - just awful - what has gone wrong with him?

RVN is missing too many chances as well - more than he used too.

William Hill go 9-1 on Arsenal now and that's about right - they'll win the title by about 10 points.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
i don't think we're going backwards, though it is definitely a transitional year. changing so many players was always going to be risky, yet necessary for the more long-term health of the team/club. that is to exclude beckham though, as i do think we miss him. i started to get worried wathcing the review dvd from last season over the summer, and seeing just how many times he played the final ball for ruud to score. ronaldo may well be an able replacement, and has skills beckham doesn't, but he doesn't balance the loss immediately.

people need to try to stay calm and be objective. it could all have been so different had rio not been allowed to leave carrington on september 23rd. we were not only playing confidently as a team, and defending well, but we were top of the league before he played his last game. his ban has left us with defensive problems (that gary neville's injury and now impending ban have complicated) that would otherwise never have maniested themselves. brown would have eased his way back in and we'd all only be talking about him being the top-class defender his record so unequivocally proves he is.

i'm not saying the situation isn't serious, and that overhauling arsenal isn't next to impossible (i think it is, and that we'll likely lose at highbury), but there are reasons for this. and even putting those aside (rio etc.) the factors that seem to be 'weakening' (a few points in it) us this season will hopefully make us stronger in the future - new, younger players.

and as for kleberson, i think he's quality. prone to the occasional lightweight blunder, but a superb passer of the ball. he should be the midfield playmaker and not wasted on the right-wing (particularly now that we have ronaldo and solksjaer is back) where he's pretty poor.

Interesting stuff as always Ben, i agree there are reasons for this seasons dip in form (Rio being the main one).
We have probably lost out in the transfer market more than anywhere. Selling Beckham and Veron, losing out on Ronaldinho, not bringing in a center half in January when we knew Rio was out long term.

We'll have to wait and see at the end of this season and over the next year or so exactly where we are as a club.

[Ben Martin]

indeed, only time will tell. and i should point out that i pretty much agreed with everything in your first post above, just wanted to add some more context to some of the ideas. in particular, though it's easy to say with hindsight, we should have gone for a centre-half last month.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

True, Wes could have come back the player he was before he got injured. I just feel it was a risk to assume that he would do.

I hope the lad doesn't get too much stick between now and May. The circumstances leading to our current defensive crisis are not his fault and he hasn't played alot of football in the last couple of years.

[unrealnils]

Gonna be tough since you lot gotta play both us and Chelski........



Originally posted by JonMills
so how many goals we gonna win by then, especially with the pie-eating antipodean one suspended?

LOL

[cheekster]

Your season certainly isn't over yet. Would be boring if it was.

It's going to be one hell of a title run-in that's for sure. :D

Let's see how your defence copes in Europe, hehe. :p

Oh to be a Gooner! :clap:

Cheekster.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by unrealnils
Gonna be tough since you lot gotta play both us and Chelski........

Going by your last 2 games against Chelsea, playing them at OT will be no problem.
We are bad at the moment but their 2 gutless performances in the FA Cup and again today showed them up for what they are: a team of over priced individuals, who have no heart.
The only player who gives them 100% is John Terry but he can't do it on his own.

As for you? I was convinced before today we'd lose at Highbury. Now, i wouldn't be surprised if we won there. We have nothing to lose after the title was all but surrendered to you today.

Unbeaten in 26 league games is great form, can't say anything against it. I could all have been so different if Ruud had scored the 89 min penalty at OT in the september league game.

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by suicidedd
Not over yet. Arsenal have a very good chance, but we've turned over bigger deficits than this.

Yes, but that was when we played well, we have turned in average performance after average performance this year, only ruud and roy have kept us up there, we won't win the league this year, the FA cups our best bet. Note to fergie, play 2 wingers and two attackers from the start please, and get giggs out of the team, we've had 3 years of nothing from him now, a spell on the bench may wake him up, and as for him being captain....

[Ben Martin]

giggsy might have been a bit 'quiet' by his own standards of late, but "3 years of nothing" is going a bit far, isn't it? what about juve away last season? he was sensational. and while that's only one game, he had at least a 'good', if not 'great', second half of last season.

plus, as part of the old guard and the original 'youth' team, i think he has the heart only found among players like scholesy, the nevilles, keane and butt. and a lot of that comes from being a manchester lad (okay, not in the same vein as scholesy, say, but still).

his form, and it's constant wavering, is frustrating though.

[madstu]

Well looking at the highlights, its seems like it was "one of those days" - Utd looked to have played pretty well, but had no luck.

Cannot see why fergie started with both P.Neville and Butt in center midfield, thats about as negative as you can get:oh-hum:

[suicidedd]

Originally posted by barcelona26051999
Yes, but that was when we played well, we have turned in average performance after average performance this year, only ruud and roy have kept us up there, we won't win the league this year, the FA cups our best bet. Note to fergie, play 2 wingers and two attackers from the start please, and get giggs out of the team, we've had 3 years of nothing from him now, a spell on the bench may wake him up, and as for him being captain....

I'd pretty much agree with your post. Except add another "R" to your "Ruud and Roy have kept us up there".....Ronaldo as well in my opinion. He's been bloody superb recently, with several match winning performances.

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by madstu
Cannot see why fergie started with both P.Neville and Butt in center midfield...exactly, and kleberson on the right! where he has consistently proved to be ... ineffective. yet in the middle he has shown his skill as playmaker and god knows we need a skillful, accurate passer of the ball to create more/better chances for ruud.

one tackling ball-winner and one playmaker. yet we go for two similar players, and render the right-wing position redundant. :confused:

can't understand what fergie was thinking. i defer to him, as always, but can't work it out.

[Pisces Iscariot]

Why is it every time United have a bad result it all comes back to Beckham and how he was never replaced? :confused: There was no need to sign a replacement in the summer as Fergie planned to use Ole in right midfield as he did towards the end of last season and he then brought Ronaldo in primarily as backup which all seemed perfectly logical to me. Unfortunately Ole then picked up an injury in September and was subsequently out for 5 months which foiled that plan but still United coped. Obviously it wasn't ideal but that's football.

United's season was going well up until after the New Year even without Beckham or an 'adequate replacement' but since Ferdinand's ban things have gone pear-shaped. It's not the only reason we've dropped behind (in the games before that we weren't killing off teams) but considering Fergie has addressed one of United’s main problems by signing Saha I’d say Rio's ban has played a big part in the problems. Had United gone for a commanding defender in the transfer window I doubt we’d be talking about United having to close a 7 point gap (or hearing anything about the sale of Beckham) but that was all part of the gamble Fergie took when he decided to stick with what we had defensively.

The other gamble on United’s part was to start Rio’s ban last month rather than waiting until after the appeal but I guess only time will tell on that part. If the ban is shortened to 3 months as United hope then it would mean Rio returns in April to help United in the quest for both the cups (assuming we’re still in them) and also the title run-in (I’m not conceding defeat yet. :D) however if the ban is not reduced or is only shortened by a couple of months then United were as well to wait until after the appeal as they’d have had time to ease Brown back in plus there would have been the bonus off annoying Blatter.

[richdmx]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©


Unbeaten in 26 league games is great form, can't say anything against it. I could all have been so different if Ruud had scored the 89 min penalty at OT in the september league game.

But he never :p :D :thumbs:

[unrealnils]

So what happend to Way_2_FAT :suspect:







Way_2_FAT
Banned

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: anywhere but here...
Posts: 0

[Tob]

Originally posted by Pisces Iscariot
Why is it every time United have a bad result it all comes back to Beckham and how he was never replaced? :confused:

Do you not think they miss him then? I think they look unbalanced without him and miss his goals, set pieces and crossing. I bet Ruud misses him a huge amount. I think Man Utd are in a bit of a transition with the players that have been signed and the heart of the old team on their way out (Keane, Giggs, Beckham), the team looks a pale shadow of the team last season.

[dean richardson]

somebody above wants giggs out of the team?

he has been superb for about a yr now.

have you seen every game utd have played this yr ? i mean all 90 mins? :oh-hum:

[unrealnils]

Unlucky boys

Silvestre blow for Man Utd (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/3513727.stm)

[madstu]

Hows this for a back 4:

P.Neville O'Shea Brown Fortune

rock-solid:oh-hum:

[Just Call Me Wanda]

Originally posted by Tob
Do you not think they miss him then? I think they look unbalanced without him and miss his goals, set pieces and crossing. I bet Ruud misses him a huge amount. I think Man Utd are in a bit of a transition with the players that have been signed and the heart of the old team on their way out (Keane, Giggs, Beckham), the team looks a pale shadow of the team last season.

I see your point but we're hardly a shadow of last season's team - we've had our best start to the season (was it 16 premiership wins from 20 games at one point), and we've strolled through the Champions League group stage.

The only reason people are looking at Utd's frailties is because of the past month's form and that has more to do with Rio's suspension and defensive slip-ups than Beckham's sale.

[Just Call Me Wanda]

Originally posted by madstu
Hows this for a back 4:

P.Neville O'Shea Brown Fortune

rock-solid:oh-hum:

It's looking bleak on the defensive front, unless Fergie puts Keano at the back and he finds some form as a centre-back.

[suicidedd]

I think/hope that our defence on Wednesday is:


Djemba Gary Keane O'Shea

[Listy]

Djemba Gary Keane O'Shea

There's no way I want Eric Clumsy Clumsy in the back four. He gives the ball away far too much with his Ox like first touch and lack of awareness, which has cost us goals in the past (and it's not like we need to be leaking more goals ATM is it!)

[Just Call Me Wanda]

Against Porto:

G Neville O'Shea Keane Fortune

Ronaldo Butt P Neville Scholes Giggs

Van Nistlerooy

[Pisces Iscariot]

Originally posted by Listy
There's no way I want Eric Clumsy Clumsy in the back four. He gives the ball away far too much with his Ox like first touch and lack of awareness, which has cost us goals in the past (and it's not like we need to be leaking more goals ATM is it!)
I was going to post the same thing. :lol:

I still think Brown should be played at right back as he needs games and United need him fit. It was only towards the end of last season that many United fans wanted him as first choice RB over Neville and Fergie switched him to RB during the game at Highbury as Henry was causing Neville too many problems when he pulled out to the left. If not Brown for this game then Phil Neville is a far better option than Djemba.

I'm still not sure about Keane playing in defence as Porto's strongest area is by far the midfield...

[suicidedd]

Djemba was superb for the reserves at right back, and I've seen him play there for Nantes(at Champion's League level) as well and he was also excellent.

Wes just doesn't fill me with confidence anywhere he plays. If Djemba is to much of a risk then I'd go with Phil at right back.

[Pisces Iscariot]

Yet in his 10-15 minutes against Everton at right back on Boxing Day he was horrific and I was sure he was going to cost us the game. He commits himself far too quickly to situations and at times his awareness of what's happening around him is simply shocking then add to that his erratic distribution and you have the recipe for disaster at right back. By all means give him a chance at right back if he's done well in training and the reserves but not in the knockout stages of the CL.

The only reason for Djemba to take the pitch against Porto is if he's under instruction to plant Deco in the stands.

[SOUNDSTYLE]

I cannot wait for the game on Wednesday as it will be a big test for United as Porto have not lost at home all season in the league (have not lost home or away). Eleven wins from eleven with only four goals conceded.

Personally I think O'Shea and G. Neville will be centre backs as we need Keane to boss the midfield.

We desperately need an away goal because we don't want Porto coming back to Old Trafford with it being nil-nil or worse.

I would take 1-1 now.

We All Follow United...!

SS

[nc]

Originally posted by Tob
Do you not think they miss him then? I think they look unbalanced without him and miss his goals, set pieces and crossing. I bet Ruud misses him a huge amount. I think Man Utd are in a bit of a transition with the players that have been signed and the heart of the old team on their way out (Keane, Giggs, Beckham), the team looks a pale shadow of the team last season. Beckham was not in the team for the big games last season, yet we won the league. None of our current problems are due to Beckham leaving. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he only scored one freekick last season and not one corner of his was scored from even though he took the majority. A big miss then:eek:

[evilsly]

I'm flying out tomorrow for the porto game

I'm not looking forward to it as much as I was a month ago :(

[Ben Martin]

Originally posted by nc
Beckham was not in the team for the big games last season, yet we won the league. None of our current problems are due to Beckham leaving. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he only scored one freekick last season and not one corner of his was scored from even though he took the majority. A big miss thenbut to brand him a one-trick pony is not only to misrepresent him but to rewrite history. i think we can survive without him and i certainly find the nation's even greater love of him now he's gone to be sickening. but the fact remains he was not only a great player who wore the shirt but who loved the shirt. along with the others of his generation he embodied the spirit of what it means to play for united. and that was one of his greatest contributions for me. when we were up against it he gave even more, chased every ball, never gave up and was one of the key reasons we seemed to have this magical gift of coming back from the dead.

but even if you don't go along with that, you can't deny the stats from last season. i don't have them to hand and can't be bothered to look them up, but i've seen it with my own eyes and apart from creating a myriad of chances for various players, including himself, he played the final ball for ruud to score on many an occasion. to ignore that, and his superb teaming up with neville on the right, and whittle his contribution down to one succesful free-kick and some average corners is to demean a player who earned our undying respect years ago.

not having a pop, just my two penneth.

[nc]

Ben - I'm not having a go at Beckham. Our problems are at the back. In fact Ruud has scored more goals (at this stage) than last AND he would have scored at least 5 more had he been playing at the form of last seasons - 3 penalty misses, 2 sitters in the last 2 games, and a fair few more sitters in previous games this season.

[HenryKrinkle]

Anyone else nervous about tonight's game...especially after recent performances! :|

...what are the odds on Arse winning the damn treble this season :(

[Mr Dubby]

Malcolm Glazer has increased his stake in Manchester United to almost 17% by buying one million ordinary shares in the Old Trafford club.
The billionaire American businessman, who owns former Super Bowl champions the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, refused to rule out a bid to buy United earlier this month when he increased his stake to 16.31%.

His acquisition of more shares - to take his holding to 16.69% - will spark further speculation of a takeover battle with fellow shareholders and Irish racing tycoons John Magnier and JP McManus, but Glazer could also decide to sell his stake in the club.

Glazer's stake still leaves him some way behind the 28.8% Magnier and McManus hold through their Cubic Expression company.

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by HenryKrinkle
Anyone else nervous about tonight's game...especially after recent performances! :|

...what are the odds on Arse winning the damn treble this season :(

I can't see them winning the treble, the league is theirs, hopefully, we can win the fa cup, and Europe is beyond both of us.

[FBI]

Playing in central defence tonight: Wesley :help:

[SOUNDSTYLE]

United were very below par tonight but we needed an away goal and got one.

As an attacking force it was non-existent as there was no drive or momentum and we couldn't hold up the ball or maintain posession. I think some sort of record must have been broken with the amount of long balls we produced in the entire game.

Keane had to go, no complaints in that department.

I can't wait for the 2nd leg as I have managed to get a ticket on March 9th. The tie is set up nicely. :thumbs:

We All Follow United...!

SS

[captainshadwell]

What a mess........anyone else out there reckon its insane playing Scholes on the right. How many times has he been there and then we hear the comments how he just didnt seem to settle and play like he usually does. The man is built to attack hard and defend with his slide tackles even harder. He puts the poop up anyone when he starts flying in for the ball and he doesnt get as much opportunity out on the right.

Defence - well the least the better. Both goals were great for the striker but could have been stopped. If we let any in more than one a week Tuesday it may be over. Still reckon Ruudy will bang some in.

So where you sat SS?Ive got some lovely seats in tier 1 Stretty and think its gonna be a vocal evening.

So when is the tennage boy lookalike Ole back then?

CS

[suicidedd]

I'm in tier 1 of the Stretty as well mate. :thumbs:

[Citysmith]

With Keane seeing Red last night what games will he miss?

[Sam]

2nd leg against Porto and if Uefa deem it violent conduct probably both legs of the QF if we get through.

[Art Vanderlay]

On the plus side from last night I thought Wes Brown looked a bit more like his old self.

There are certainly goals in it for us in the return leg, and I can't see McCarthy making two wonder strikes again.

We will miss Keane in midfield, but I hope it encourage Fergie to put Scholes back in the middle and play with a proper right sided player (OGS or Ronaldo)

[Citysmith]

Originally posted by Art Vanderlay
On the plus side from last night I thought Wes Brown looked a bit more like his old self.

There are certainly goals in it for us in the return leg, and I can't see McCarthy making two wonder strikes again.

We will miss Keane in midfield, but I hope it encourage Fergie to put Scholes back in the middle and play with a proper right sided player (OGS or Ronaldo) Manchester United took a spanking last night, , the defence is not upto the task of winning a major trophy.

a. Wes Brown has not looked the same since coming back from injury.
b. Rio let down everyone at the club, by forgetting :gag:
c. O'Shea has not looked the same player this season
d. Silvestre is now injured (no fault of his own)
e. Neville has performed well, this season, except his dive against us :lol:
f. Ferguson should have bought a defender in the transfer window.

Was letting Beckham go a mistake? :thinking:

[adox]

theres something seriously wrong at the club. last nights performance was very worrying.the lack of effort and interest shown by the players was alarming. dodgy defending is one thing,lack of application is another problem altogether.

the one player that did play well,saha was substituted.
keane let himself and the team down with his stamp,which was petty. i reckon he is facing a 3 match ban as stamping is violent conduct.

fergusons bull afterwards about the porto players diving was embarrassing. there are majo major problems on the field,and if they aremt addressed they could be irreversable.

[HenryKrinkle]

We have no confidence! Look at Arsenal...bags of confidence, never look like losing. Look at us...uncertain, sloppy and lacking any sort of drive! We will finish this season potless, I'd like to think we could do something in the FA Cup but, assuming we'll have to play Arsenal at some point to win it, forgive me if I'm not at all optimistic.

Arsenal have set the standard this season and we are woefully short of it...the fact we are 2nd says more about the rest of the premiership than it does about us.

...I hate the fact that it's still Febuary and the only thing to look forward to is next season!

...we really should have bought Southgate :oh-hum:

...no doubt if we beat Fulham on saturday week I'll feel a bit better, but even the most loyal of fans have to admit we're a pale shadow of what we once were!! :(

[D J Fryer]

My take on the game was that the front two started off too deep - almost sitting on top of the midfield and as a result that let Porto's centre halves distribute to full backs with very little pressure. I personally didn't think that Ruud or Saha worked hard enough at closing down.

Our left side was a problem all night, simply too many occasions when we were caught flat footed by Porto's pace.

Its a sad fact that whilst the Nevilles have their qualities their persistent long ball was embarassing last night. I agree with citysmith - O'shea was virtually untested in europe last season but was a revelation - it seems this is just going to be an indifferent season for him because he has not performed to the same standard.

The biggest worry was that we looked nervous in possession and couldn't retain the ball - that has always been one of our strengths. The team needs a confidence game to get their form back and lets hope it comes sooner rather than later :thumbs:

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by Citysmith
Manchester United took a spanking last night, , the defence is not upto the task of winning a major trophy.

a. Wes Brown has not looked the same since coming back from injury.
b. Rio let down everyone at the club, by forgetting :gag:
c. O'Shea has not looked the same player this season
d. Silvestre is now injured (no fault of his own)
e. Neville has performed well, this season, except his dive against us :lol:
f. Ferguson should have bought a defender in the transfer window.

Was letting Beckham go a mistake? :thinking:

:eek: OH MY GOD I AGREE WITH CITYSMITH!!!!

Well, apart from the Beckham bit anyway!

[unrealnils]

Originally posted by unrealnils
So what happend to Way_2_FAT :suspect:







Way_2_FAT
Banned

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: anywhere but here...
Posts: 0 anyone ?

[AdamBrunt]

"It goes without saying that we would prefer Roy to be in our team," said Ferguson.

"There was no malice in the incident, it is not Roy's style to do anything like that."

Yeah ... I'm sure Alan Shearer and Alfie Haaland would agree with you there :cuckoo:

[D J Fryer]

Keano is a changed man from those days though - last nights challenge was merely a little tap to let the keeper know he was there - people saying he stamped on him want to get out and play sunday league to see what a real stamp would look and feel like. The keeper certainly made the most of the pain he was in :|

[Citysmith]

Originally posted by The 3 little pigs
:eek: OH MY GOD I AGREE WITH CITYSMITH!!!!

Well, apart from the Beckham bit anyway! The World is a more beautiful place :)

The bit about Beckham was a question, not a statment, so Let Love Rule :p

Manchester United let City have a good few chances at the end of the last game, and if Sibierski was a better header of the ball, we'd of possibly pulled the tie around!!!

But as I watched the game, I've never seen a Manchester United defence in such a poor state since Pallister and Bruce were at Manchester United.

You get the feeling that Manchester United are going to end up empty handed this year.

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by D J Fryer
Keano is a changed man from those days though - last nights challenge was merely a little tap to let the keeper know he was there - people saying he stamped on him want to get out and play sunday league to see what a real stamp would look and feel like. The keeper certainly made the most of the pain he was in :|

I agree, it was a stupid thing to do, but we see incidents of players leaving their boots in all the time that go unpunished, and as for the ref last night....how many fouls did they make? How many bookings did they get? Exactly, as soon as fortune went near one of their players he got booked. pathetic. That said, we got what we deserved last night. 4-4-2 anyone? Two wingers? I'll keep asking this until that's what we play, because until then, we won't win anything. And as for giggs....

[whodoyoudo]

Originally posted by Citysmith


But as I watched the game, I've never seen a Manchester United defence in such a poor state since Pallister and Bruce were at Manchester United.


You what? Are you on the wind up? I'm not questioning the current defence, it's useless but what was bad about the Bruce & Pallister defence? It was one of the most solid around.

[ICEM@N]

I question Fergusons buying recently. Whilst Saha perhaps will not turn out to be a bad buy, can the same be said for the likes of Ronaldo, Bellion, Kleberson?, especailly when they really need to be making an impact now.

Where as Arsene will relize he's bought a crap player and get shot of him, Ferguson seems to want to keep them even if they are not up to the job.

[Citysmith]

Originally posted by whodoyoudo
You what? Are you on the wind up? I'm not questioning the current defence, it's useless but what was bad about the Bruce & Pallister defence? It was one of the most solid around. Sorry,I meant the worst since Before Pallister and Bruce. Who was that French guy who played one game before being sent home again, he was as about a decent defender as Fortune.

Pallister and Bruce did an excellent job, and would be embarassed by the Manchester Uniteds back 4 last night. Mind you I do remember Barcelona teaching Manchester Uniteds back 4 a lesson when P & B were at the back :p

I question Fergusons buying recently. Whilst Saha perhaps will not turn out to be a bad buy, can the same be said for the likes of Ronaldo, Bellion, Kleberson?, especailly when they really need to be making an impact now.

Where as Arsene will relize he's bought a crap player and get shot of him, Ferguson seems to want to keep them even if they are not up to the job.

Ferguson has a very poor mid-range buy history, he has either a very poor scouting network, or is a very bad judge of mediocre players. The list of players that Ferguson has bought on the cheap and that have succeded is a very small list indeed. Especially when you compare it to Arsene Wengers mid to small range buys

[whodoyoudo]

Originally posted by Citysmith
Sorry,I meant the worst since Before Pallister and Bruce. Who was that French guy who played one game before being sent home again, he was as about a decent defender as Fortune.

Pallister and Bruce did an excellent job, and would be embarassed by the Manchester Uniteds back 4 last night. Mind you I do remember Barcelona teaching Manchester Uniteds back 4 a lesson when P & B were at the back :p


Phew, I can calm down now :thumbs: :lol:

That French guy, damn, I've forgoten his name, a mate of Cantona's IIRC? I think he actually lasted 3 games :lol: To think we were so looking forward to him playing too.

[Ben Martin]

william prunier. did he play three games? i thought it was two but might be wrong. he played the home game on boxing day or thereabouts and was then in the team when we were hammered at white hart lane a few days later.

[captainshadwell]

Had a feeling something was wrong above - Bruce and Pallister were class-nuff said.

As for Fergies mid to low range buying, you win some, you lose some but boy have we won some. What about the man that walked on water - Cantona - bargain and a sheer legend for 1.2 million. Boywonder Ole Solskjaer aint a bad buy either for 1.5 million. Schmeichel for 0.5 million. Timmy Howard for 2.3 million looks like it may be a bargain and so on.

Then you have to look at the players we have brought through the ranks and paid nowt for - nevilles, scholes, butt, giggs and so on. Most teams in the world would happily have all those players and they cost us 5.1 and the list could go on.

Im sorry, but bargain buys dont come along that often and we have definitely a good share of them.

As for the new signings - to be giving them grief in March when they were signed last summer is a bit harsh in my book. How many people were saying Rio was a waste, yet this season when he has been playing and not smacking up and missing drugs tests hes been outstanding leading the back four. I think we can expect big things from Ronaldo considering his age and even Kleberson and Djemba have shown moments of brilliance that given a bit more time will show their worth.

Potential buys that deserve a bit of scpticism are Barthez though he saved us a fair few times, Veron but again he had his moments just not enough for the pricetag, Forlan but hes started banging in a few and when we needed them too. Compare our buys to Houlliers purchases through his 5 year plan - now there is some proper blunders.

Last night was not the best performance by a very long way but I think that the away goal will be priceless and the fact that we have to win week tuesday should get united playing like they can do.Every player and fan will want it and we will get it.

Well thats my rant overwith and as for Keano - well that was keano through and through. He doesnt have a history of joy in champions league and year upon year he must get frustrated beyond belief - Alfie Halland knows all about it.

CS

[Kronik]

Originally posted by Citysmith


But as I watched the game, I've never seen a Manchester United defence in such a poor state since Pallister and Bruce were at Manchester United.



I remember it being fairly poor when Blanc once arrived on teh scene and replaced Stam.

Originally posted by ICEM@N

Where as Arsene will relize he's bought a crap player and get shot of him, Ferguson seems to want to keep them even if they are not up to the job.

*cough* Cygan *cough* :( :p

[whodoyoudo]

Originally posted by captainshadwell
Had a feeling something was wrong above - Bruce and Pallister were class-nuff said.

As for Fergies mid to low range buying, you win some, you lose some but boy have we won some. What about the man that walked on water - Cantona - bargain and a sheer legend for 1.2 million. Boywonder Ole Solskjaer aint a bad buy either for 1.5 million. Schmeichel for 0.5 million. Timmy Howard for 2.3 million looks like it may be a bargain and so on.

Then you have to look at the players we have brought through the ranks and paid nowt for - nevilles, scholes, butt, giggs and so on. Most teams in the world would happily have all those players and they cost us 5.1 and the list could go on.

Im sorry, but bargain buys dont come along that often and we have definitely a good share of them.

As for the new signings - to be giving them grief in March when they were signed last summer is a bit harsh in my book. How many people were saying Rio was a waste, yet this season when he has been playing and not smacking up and missing drugs tests hes been outstanding leading the back four. I think we can expect big things from Ronaldo considering his age and even Kleberson and Djemba have shown moments of brilliance that given a bit more time will show their worth.

Potential buys that deserve a bit of scpticism are Barthez though he saved us a fair few times, Veron but again he had his moments just not enough for the pricetag, Forlan but hes started banging in a few and when we needed them too. Compare our buys to Houlliers purchases through his 5 year plan - now there is some proper blunders.

Last night was not the best performance by a very long way but I think that the away goal will be priceless and the fact that we have to win week tuesday should get united playing like they can do.Every player and fan will want it and we will get it.

Well thats my rant overwith and as for Keano - well that was keano through and through. He doesnt have a history of joy in champions league and year upon year he must get frustrated beyond belief - Alfie Halland knows all about it.

CS

Barthez may have saved us on occasions but I think he cost us more in the end.

As for the away goal, we won't keep a clean sheet in the 2nd leg IMO so it'll be cancelled out.

Funniest thing about the Keane incident was Fergie saying it just wasn't like Keane :thinking: :lol: I couldn't stop laughing when I read that, he must've forgotten the blokes history, especially when he did Alfie Inge Haaland.

I am beginning to worry about Fergie. Why he never attempted to sign a centre half in Jan knowing what was going to happen to Rio is beyond me? OK, I guess he thought with Brown coming back we'd be fine but then again, Ole was on his way back so you could argue that he shouldn't have bought Saha? (BTW, I'm knocking the buy of Loius)

Our best chance of a trophy this season has to be the FA Cup, Arsenal have looked special this year, it can't be denied, they look stronger than last year and I'll be stunned if they slump as they did last year.

As for next season, well, I guess it depends on whther he can pick up some quality players, we seem to be lacking now and are far too reliant on Keane who doesn't have many years left in him.

I'll shut up before I:cry: :lol:

[Kronik]

Ban him for typo-swearing!! :nuts:

[Just Call Me Wanda]

Originally posted by captainshadwell


Well thats my rant overwith and as for Keano - well that was keano through and through. He doesnt have a history of joy in champions league and year upon year he must get frustrated beyond belief - Alfie Halland knows all about it.

CS

You never know, not having Keane maybe a blessing in disguise (1999, v Bayern Munich. CL Final)! :)

[evilsly]

as long as it's a different set of officials United will win easily at Old Trafford. Shocking display by the officials, and some very dodgy diving by the Porto players last night.
It was the complete lack of attack that worried me more than defensive lapses last night, and any one going out to Oporto for the Euro 2004 matches, keep your wits about you, the Police were NASTY last night, and it was worrying at a few points. Much the same as the last time I was there for a united match

[AdamBrunt]

Originally posted by evilsly
as long as it's a different set of officials United will win easily at Old Trafford.

Ah, but sadly for you ... the English FA have no say in who officiates CL games so you'll get a ref who plays by the rules ;)

[whodoyoudo]

Originally posted by Kronik
Ban him for typo-swearing!! :nuts:

:lol: I've edited that typo now :thumbs:

[Torf]

Just got my tickets for the Charlton game :clap:
Anyone know where the seating plan on manutd.com has gone? I can't seem to find it. Cheers ;)

[evilsly]

I would have no problem with a referee playing by the rules, the officials last night were a complete joke. A fair referee would have stopped porto's play acting. Roy Keane should have been sent off though, before anyone comments.

And I don't see how a liverpool fan can comment about refs, after the shocking fa cup match against portsmouth ......

[suicidedd]

Originally posted by ICEM@N
I question Fergusons buying recently. Whilst Saha perhaps will not turn out to be a bad buy, can the same be said for the likes of Ronaldo, Bellion, Kleberson?, especailly when they really need to be making an impact now.

Can't really judge Bellion, as he's just a young player with a bit of potential. Nothing more. He's improving though, from what I've seen of the reserve matches.

Kleb isn't bad, although he's taking a bit of time to settle into the English game. Not sure if he'll ever be more than a bench player though.

And Ronaldo is a gem. In my opinion he's currently our best midfielder, at 19, other than Paul Scholes. And I know that a fair amount of people agree with that.

[unrealnils]

Better then Giggs and Ole ?

[suicidedd]

Originally posted by unrealnils
Better then Giggs and Ole ?

Yep. Recently he's been better than Giggs for sure.


Ole is a tricky one. I was talking more about current form, so I suppose Ron has to be better there.

[cabor]

Originally posted by evilsly
as long as it's a different set of officials United will win easily at Old Trafford. Shocking display by the officials, and some very dodgy diving by the Porto players last night.



I think United might just edge the reply, although i have to say
Porto were far better than i expected. I suspect Fergusons comments on the Porto tactics and match officials may well work in reverse when UEFA pick the referee for the 2nd leg.

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by Torf
Just got my tickets for the Charlton game :clap:
Anyone know where the seating plan on manutd.com has gone? I can't seem to find it. Cheers ;)

Let me know your seat details (stand and block at least!), and I'll give you a good idea where you are.

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by barcelona26051999
I agree, it was a stupid thing to do, but we see incidents of players leaving their boots in all the time that go unpunished, and as for the ref last night....how many fouls did they make? How many bookings did they get? Exactly, as soon as fortune went near one of their players he got booked. pathetic. That said, we got what we deserved last night. 4-4-2 anyone? Two wingers? I'll keep asking this until that's what we play, because until then, we won't win anything. And as for giggs....

Further to my post, did anyone see what Gerrard did tonight? Proves my point! Nice unbiased summarising at half time too!

[captainshadwell]

Hats off to the scousers for that one. I cant say Ive found them the most interesting to watch lately or for a long while, and as for Houlliers "if we had done this and not this" comments enough said but both goals were absolute crackers. Baros looked like he needed a break though towards then end - constantly heavy breathing.

CS

[SteM]

Originally posted by Torf
Just got my tickets for the Charlton game :clap:
Anyone know where the seating plan on manutd.com has gone? I can't seem to find it. Cheers ;)

I was looking for that the other day, they just seem to have taken it away :confused:

I got tickets too for the Charlton game too, not recieved them yet but they'll be for either the norh or south stands, tier 1. :clap:

[captainshadwell]

Anyone hear found it a bit more difficult to get tickets this year?Went to about 25/30 games last season as per usual but have been rejected about 5 or times this season so far.

CS

[Torf]

Originally posted by barcelona26051999
Let me know your seat details (stand and block at least!), and I'll give you a good idea where you are.

Right, got another pair through the door this morning! Mr Chubb must've taken pity on me as he's been a git all season ;)

Fulham cup game - NS T2 - Block N3402

Charlton - ES T2 - Block E331

Cheers muchly ;)

[Torf]

Ahhhh...found it ;)

http://www.manutd.com/championsleague/oldtrafford.sps?itype=3809&icustompageid=6216

Click on the Seating Plan (middle-left of the page)

[barcelona26051999]

Argh! You beat me to it! (I can't believe those pages are still up!)

[HenryKrinkle]

Well, we needed to win today to have any chance of a title hope...and we didn't...how pathetic! It's almost like we've gone backwards a dozen years, looking on the FA Cup as our only chance of success...s'pose it's about time we got a taste of what everyone else has been having the last decade.

...nice to see Ruud was only a sub in a must win scenario :oh-hum: ...it seems we have lost the knack of winning :(

[Kronik]

Found it strange that when United needed a win, Fergi rested big players against a team that beat them at Old Trafford.

[Ben Martin]

re: ruud we have the benefit of hindsight, and even then would it have made any difference? i'm not so sure, and he didn't score in the twenty minutes he had on the pitch. i'm certainly not having a pop at him but he's certainly one of a handful of players who have been looking jaded recently. often when that happens a quick rest, even if just on the subs bench, turns out to be exactly what was needed.

back to the game and the title race though. if anyone thought it was still on then that's it put to bed. with arsenal's superior goal difference we need to make up 10 points on them in 11 matches. it's simply not going to happen. okay, part of me never gives up, but looking at the facts and the form sheet it looks over. even if arsenal were to drop enough points (and they look far from doing so) are we really going to take 33 points from the remaining games? no chance.

it sounded on the radio like we suffered a bit at the hands of the ref today. legwinsky (i think) kicking the ball against forlan when he had started to retreat and forlan getting yellow-carded. legwinsky climbing on saha when saha wasn't even playing the ball and saha gets carded. the penalty decision - though we need to wait for the tv replay. that said though, these things do tend to even out over a season and happen to everyone. if you're going to win the championship you have to overcome these and play so well that they end up not mattering. we can play that well. just not at the moment.

[evilsly]

I watched the match via a streaming link, and Fulhum were the better team :(

[Torf]

I was at a pub in York watching the match. We should've had a penalty, I don't think you'll see one as clear cut as that all season. Ref was a joke.

However, a championship winning side don't rely on penalties to win games. Against arsenal, we needed a penalty to win (which we didn't score) Looks like it's all over this season, never say never though ;)

We are United!

:clap:

[Ben Martin]

hmm, i've got to find somewhere round here showing aways on european satellite channels. or find out about that streaming link. not that we're probably allowed to discuss it on here?

[evilsly]

Torf, can you let me know what pub in york shows united matches, all the ones I know tend to be full of Abu's and Leeds fans :(

[barcelona26051999]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
re: ruud we have the benefit of hindsight, and even then would it have made any difference? i'm not so sure, and he didn't score in the twenty minutes he had on the pitch. i'm certainly not having a pop at him but he's certainly one of a handful of players who have been looking jaded recently. often when that happens a quick rest, even if just on the subs bench, turns out to be exactly what was needed.

back to the game and the title race though. if anyone thought it was still on then that's it put to bed. with arsenal's superior goal difference we need to make up 10 points on them in 11 matches. it's simply not going to happen. okay, part of me never gives up, but looking at the facts and the form sheet it looks over. even if arsenal were to drop enough points (and they look far from doing so) are we really going to take 33 points from the remaining games? no chance.

it sounded on the radio like we suffered a bit at the hands of the ref today. legwinsky (i think) kicking the ball against forlan when he had started to retreat and forlan getting yellow-carded. legwinsky climbing on saha when saha wasn't even playing the ball and saha gets carded. the penalty decision - though we need to wait for the tv replay. that said though, these things do tend to even out over a season and happen to everyone. if you're going to win the championship you have to overcome these and play so well that they end up not mattering. we can play that well. just not at the moment.

These things don't even out over a season though, I can only think of 1 penalty we should have conceded that wasn't given, but 4 we should have got, but didn't. Then there was the goal that wasnt against newcastle.

That said, we arn't good enough this year, and have only the fa cup to realistically win. We also need to keep a more settled side, we're starting to chop and change like chelsea used to, and were not getting any consistency. Play the best team, no point resting players if we can't win the game there rested from, or the game they have been rested for!

[Sonick]

We need an Out and Out Leftback at United

[madstu]

Originally posted by Sonick
We need an Out and Out Leftback at United

we need a defence:oh-hum:

your right about the left-back.

Its depressing when there seems no young players are able to fill the void.

[ffc]

Originally posted by evilsly
I watched the match via a streaming link, and Fulhum were the better team :(

I thought it was an even game.

It was a definite penalty.

Forlan wasn't retreating. He was stood five yards away holding up the free kick. Legwinsky even waited a couple of seconds and when he didn't move he belted it at him.

Saha was backing into Legwinsky Shearer style which is why we got the free kick.

It was also a hilarious first for a Utd player to heckle the ref for a decision when he wasn't even on the pitch!

The game was good entertainment, but you are not the same team I've seen visit us in the past three seasons. On those occasions you always looked capable of scoring at any point in the game. Today you were different, more fragile and less co-ordinated.

On the upside Skippy was very good when he stayed on his feet and looks a good buy and if Howard had played you would have won even if a little undeservedly.

Still I'm expecting to get pasted next week so I'll enjoy the point for for now.

[Torf]

Originally posted by evilsly
Torf, can you let me know what pub in york shows united matches, all the ones I know tend to be full of Abu's and Leeds fans :(

Come and join us at the five lions on walmgate...good lot of united fans, and a good leeds-supporting landlord who is more than happy to take your dosh.

£1.45 for boddies - £1.55 for labbatts.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
re: ruud we have the benefit of hindsight, and even then would it have made any difference? i'm not so sure, and he didn't score in the twenty minutes he had on the pitch.

Not sure i agree with you on this Ben mate, hindsight doesn't apply to Fergie resting players and dropping points. It happens nearly every time we do it. I suspected a draw when i saw the team sheet, exactly the same as the OT game against Fulham that we lost.
I've said it before but we simply aren't good enough to rest players this year.

Arsenal were 7 points clear at the top of the league, all but through to the quarter final of the CL and quater final of the FA Cup, played away in Spain during the week but STILL played their strongest team. They always do.
If we did the same there wouldn't be 9 points in it, not a chance.

[evilsly]

Originally posted by Torf
Come and join us at the five lions on walmgate...good lot of united fans, and a good leeds-supporting landlord who is more than happy to take your dosh.

£1.45 for boddies - £1.55 for labbatts.



:thumbs:
I think I'll pop in next time there's a united match I can't get to, even if it's perilously close to the Northern Wall:suspect:

[Ben Martin]

ukjezza, you're right. we should always play the strongest team. i guess i was speculating as whether the 'strongest team' yesterday included ruud? or whether it included him from the start? it probably should have done, but i was exploring the argument that certain players have looked a bit jaded recently and may need a brief rest.

but it's all academic if we then go and lose, as you say. as then what exactly are we resting them for? plus, we do indeed have an unsettling habit of underestimating certain teams. but we'd had our warning against fulham already. doubly disappointing.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by Ben Martin
ukjezza, you're right. we should always play the strongest team. i guess i was speculating as whether the 'strongest team' yesterday included ruud? or whether it included him from the start? it probably should have done, but i was exploring the argument that certain players have looked a bit jaded recently and may need a brief rest.

but it's all academic if we then go and lose, as you say. as then what exactly are we resting them for? plus, we do indeed have an unsettling habit of underestimating certain teams. but we'd had our warning against fulham already. doubly disappointing.

I suspect Fergie played a weakened side because he'd secretly given up hope of retaining the League this year. Publically he can't say it and didn't during yesterday's post match interview but he knows Arsenal aren't going to lose 4 in 11 when they haven't in the previous 27.

I take your point about players looking jaded recently but i put that down to the bad run we are having. It's amazing how fresh players look when all is going well. The negative body language of Ruud can be put down to being tired but i think he looks frustrated and a bit sorry for himself with the lack of decent service in the last month or so.

Lets hope we put the league results against Fulham right next saturday in the FA Cup game. It will hopefully give us something to build on for the Porto return leg a few days later.

[Torf]

Originally posted by evilsly
:thumbs:
I think I'll pop in next time there's a united match I can't get to, even if it's perilously close to the Northern Wall:suspect:

Use this page to check if it's on first ;)
http://www.knplogic.co.uk/sport/british.html

[evilsly]

looks like 'life long red' cuddly pete has done his stuff for chelski and got them Robben :(

[lorenzo]

Maybe Ruud got dropped for saying we were missing Becks?

I hope Fergy continues to experiment - let's face it, when has there been a better time? Arsenal are unstopable and the top 4 get a chance to play in the CL. If you are going to rebuild then you have to accept a couple of seasons of under-performance relative to your norm and let's face it, 2nd or 3rd (God I hope not) is not a bad season.

Not happy about the Robben news however :(

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by lorenzo
Not happy about the Robben news however :(
That is a MASSIVE blow to our future plans. God knows where we go from here :oh-hum:

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
That is a MASSIVE blow to our future plans. God knows where we go from here :oh-hum: A bit over the top, we still have Giggs or Ronaldo who can play in that position and I would expect to strengthen further in the summer.

Being perfectly honest, we cant compete with Chelsea in terms of cash. However that does not preclude us from having success - other teams have spent more than us in the past yet we have still picked up silverware.

Too many doom merchants about for my liking.

[SteM]

Originally posted by The 3 little pigs
A bit over the top, we still have Giggs or Ronaldo who can play in that position and I would expect to strengthen further in the summer.

Being perfectly honest, we cant compete with Chelsea in terms of cash. However that does not preclude us from having success - other teams have spent more than us in the past yet we have still picked up silverware.

Too many doom merchants about for my liking.

But the really frustrating thing about this is that he would have been ours if we'd just offered what he was worth. From what the PSV chairman says our offer was too low.

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by SteM
But the really frustrating thing about this is that he would have been ours if we'd just offered what he was worth. From what the PSV chairman says our offer was too low. If we had offered what he is worth, Chelsea would have just stuck another couple of million on top - a bit like they did when Blackburn kept turning down their offers for Duff.

[SteM]

Originally posted by The 3 little pigs
If we had offered what he is worth, Chelsea would have just stuck another couple of million on top - a bit like they did when Blackburn kept turning down their offers for Duff.

Yeah, I understand that and wouldn't want to get into an auction with Chelsea over the guy. But at least we would have been in with a decent chance of getting him, it sounds like our initial bid was pathetic - were we so confident of signing him that we didn't go back with an improved offer?

How did we go from his father saying "My son will not go to Chelsea. Over my dead body will he go there" and "Old Trafford is the only place he wants to play and if he can't play there he would rather stay at PSV." ... "In fact he would rather play in their reserves than go to Chelsea. It's as simple as that." to Robben saying "I think I can become a better player at Chelsea" ??

[unrealnils]

Maybe they love PSV more........

And maybe Chelski said Robben is vital if they want the nursery sorted,

Or maybe the family just said that to get a better deal for there Sun

:searchme:

[FBI]

Originally posted by SteM
How did we go from his father saying "My son will not go to Chelsea. Over my dead body will he go there" and "Old Trafford is the only place he wants to play and if he can't play there he would rather stay at PSV." ... "In fact he would rather play in their reserves than go to Chelsea. It's as simple as that." to Robben saying "I think I can become a better player at Chelsea" ??

Nearly all the talk you hear prior to a transfer is bull.

Robben's dad played it very well for his son and PSV. The club got more than 50% more than United were prepared to offer; and goodness knows what enormous salary the young lad will be on at Chelsea.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by The 3 little pigs
A bit over the top, we still have Giggs or Ronaldo who can play in that position and I would expect to strengthen further in the summer.

Being perfectly honest, we cant compete with Chelsea in terms of cash. However that does not preclude us from having success - other teams have spent more than us in the past yet we have still picked up silverware.

Too many doom merchants about for my liking.

We have Giggs and Ronaldo now mate and with the rest of our current squad we've fallen short this year. Robben would have been an excellent squad player for us. The frustrating thing is that it seems we verbally agreed one price, then bid £5 million or so less?????? We pulled the same stunt with Ronaldinho in the summer and lost out to Barcelona. Until we show ambition in the transfer market, we'll always lose out to these teams. Every time a top player becomes available, Chelsea will have more money than us, that doesn't mean we should give up putting in reasonable bids for players. It'll be the same in the summer when we try and get Joaquin from Real Betis, Real Madrid will outbid us and that will be the end of it.

[The 3 little pigs]

Originally posted by ©™~UKJEZZA~™©
We have Giggs and Ronaldo now mate and with the rest of our current squad we've fallen short this year. Robben would have been an excellent squad player for us. The frustrating thing is that it seems we verbally agreed one price, then bid £5 million or so less?????? We pulled the same stunt with Ronaldinho in the summer and lost out to Barcelona. Until we show ambition in the transfer market, we'll always lose out to these teams. Every time a top player becomes available, Chelsea will have more money than us, that doesn't mean we should give up putting in reasonable bids for players. It'll be the same in the summer when we try and get Joaquin from Real Betis, Real Madrid will outbid us and that will be the end of it. I wouldnt say Ronaldo has fallen short - he hasnt played enough to build up form, but whenever he has played I've been impressed.

Look, lets be honest - we all know there are some problems at the club at the moment. We all know we need to strengthen the squad, we all know we need to ship a few players out who havent cut the mustard, we all know we need a new No.2 to bend Sir Alex's ear every now and again. But this is far from the crisis that is being made out. The manager has dropped a couple of clangers (not signing cover in defence for one) but I think these issues will be resolved in the summer. As for Robben if we went head to head in an auction we would lose out & even if we did outbid them it would be a far inflated figure the likes of which we have bemoaned before on this thread.

The fact remains that before Rio got banned, we had THE meanest defence in the league, if we sign a good quality natural left back (Armand from Nantes anyone?) we will have a very strong starting defence & good backup provided by O'Shea, Brown, Pip Neville & the kid Bardsley who is looking good. Oh and I think Howard will be our keeper for the next 10 years. So looking good at the back.

Midfield is where we need to do the surgery. This summer is the when we MUST sign a direct replacement for Roy Keane, no 'might be good in a couple of years a-la Djemba we need a proven quality defensive midfielder who can step in directly when Keane is out & not look out of his depth & also play along side Keane in the games that Butt currently plays in. Losing out on Robben is a blow as he was a natural successor to Giggs & he would also have given us the option of playing Giggs behind RvN without having to stick Kleb or Scholes out there (which is lunacy). The fact that we were so keen on Robben tells us that Sir Alex is looking at that position, so I would expect a few other targets to be looked at in the summer. Miller is also on the way in - I admit I dont know much about him, but the fact that the Celtic fans were so dissapointed in him leaving bodes well.

Up front I think is looking good & we have lots of options here, especially if we get cover for Giggs - no complaints with our forwards - save for the fact that Bellion will never be a first team player & Saha should have been bought in the summer.

I expect to see Butt, Forlan, Barthez and maybe one other (Fortune?) as well to go in the summer, and taking their place will be a naturalleft back, a holding midfielder a right or left winger & a new assistant for Alex.

While theres a bit to do - I think we have the best manager for doing that work as he has done it before and I have every confidence he can do it again.

Sorry for the long post - i'm bored in work & I dont have champ manager here
:D

[welshmatt]

Well i agree with almost all of what you said anyway;)

I havent seen any of the Fulham game from Saturday but the guy on the radio said Ronaldo played very well agaian.

[Sonick]

With Robben to Chelski Reserves

We should go for 1 of the following
Van Der Vaart
Joaquin
Tevez
or Deco

[Listy]

I think we should sign both van der Vaart & Joaquin plus a left back & a centre back (Cannavaro has been interesting United apparently).

[madstu]

Originally posted by Listy
I think we should sign both van der Vaart & Joaquin plus a left back & a centre back (Cannavaro has been interesting United apparently).

got a spare £60m?

[HBK757]

Originally posted by madstu
got a spare £60m?
No kidding :D

Utd would struggle to find the money for 2 of those players mentioned, nevermind 4 world class players.

[©™~UKJEZZA~™©]

Originally posted by The 3 little pigs
I wouldnt say Ronaldo has fallen short - he hasnt played enough to build up form, but whenever he has played I've been impressed.

Look, lets be honest - we all know there are some problems at the club at the moment. We all know we need to strengthen the squad, we all know we need to ship a few players out who havent cut the mustard, we all know we need a new No.2 to bend Sir Alex's ear every now and again.

Midfield is where we need to do the surgery. This summer is the when we MUST sign a direct replacement for Roy Keane, no 'might be good in a couple of years a-la Djemba we need a proven quality defensive midfielder who can step in directly when Keane is out & not look out of his depth & also play along side Keane in the games that Butt currently plays in. Losing out on Robben is a blow as he was a natural successor to Giggs & he would also have given us the option of playing Giggs behind RvN without having to stick Kleb or Scholes out there (which is lunacy).

While theres a bit to do - I think we have the best manager for doing that work as he has done it before and I have every confidence he can do it again.

:D
I agree with all of the above mate, good stuff.
I meant the team generally had fallen short of what we expect, not Ronaldo. He has improved greatly since he first came into the team.

I also agree we have the best manager to get us back on track. However, he does seem to have lost his way in the last 12 months. Perhaps a combination odf the uncertainty surrounding his future and the lack of a recognised Number 2 has taken it's toll. Let's hope he gets Sparky as our number 2 for the start of next season and we show some real ambition in the summer.
After all if this season carries on how it's going at the moment, we'll have some ground to make up on Arsenal, Chelsea and at least 5 teams in Europe.

[Bleeders]

Originally posted by HBK757
No kidding :D

Utd would struggle to find the money for 2 of those players mentioned, nevermind 4 world class players.

Agreed - and what with Euro 2004 coming up, you can bet Van Der Vaart's price will sky-rocket if he plays well.

[unrealnils]

You guys are the HIGHEST earning club inthe world :)

[madstu]

Originally posted by unrealnils
You guys are the HIGHEST earning club inthe world :)

Yeah but Utd can't sell their training ground to the govenment for £250m or have a Russian owner with £billions to play with:oh-hum:

I think the problem is that under Keynon Utd were spoilt with big transfers, but also overpaid quite a lot, Veron £29m, RVN £19m (bargain), Ferdinand £30m, Forlan £7.5m.

Before that Utd didn't do the really big transfers or big wages, and many teams outspent them, now thats come to an end (seemingly).

We need some astute signings of years gone by, (less established players with real potential) which I think Fergie has tried this year, Howard, Ronaldo and Kleberson - although Utd still paid massive transfer fees for the last two.

Also, there seems a lack of home grown talent, Utd's success has been home grown players complimented by quality signings.

But where are the talented kids? When was the last time Utd had a striker come through the ranks - Mark Robbins!!

The real mistake has been Fergies willingness to go it alone and not have a proper assistant, it all went wrong before when McClaren left and was not replaced:nono:

[evilsly]

Walter Smith announced as asssistant manager until the end of the season.

[The 3 little pigs]

Great :|

[FBI]

That settles it then: we'll win nothing this season. :(

[The 3 little pigs]

My concern is not about his abilities as I know nothing of them, I'm more concerned that he is another yes man, a-la Phelan, Ryan, etc

Some people have said he's a good coach but a crap manager - I suppose the proof will be in the pudding*




* - figure of speech, not a reference to Smith